Selected quad for the lemma: life_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
life_n	believe_v	know_v	word_n	4,525	5	4.2540	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45823	A contention for truth: or, an impartial account, of two several disputations The one being on Munday, the 12th. of Feb. And the other on Munday, the 26. of the same month, in the year 1671. Between Mr. Danson of the one party, and Mr. Ives on the other, upon this question (viz) whether the doctrine of some true believers, falling away totally and finally from grace, be true or no? Published to prevent mistakes, and false reports, concerning the said conferences. By a lover of truth and peace.	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1672 (1672)	Wing I1095A; ESTC R222598	83,987	220

can you may shew where any one of these Characters agree to one that is not a believer and it shall suffice Mr. Danson I begin with enlightening and that we have in the 17th of John 23. where Christ prays that the World may believe that thou hath sent me Mr. Ives What do you bring thia for Mr. Danson Why It is Scripture Mr. Ives What care I for Scripture Hear the Peofell a Laughing Mr. Ives What do you Laugh for Surely you cannot think that I speak to undervalue the Scriptures since we come here to prove our opinions by them Now when I say I care not for the Scripture my meaning is for Mr. Dansons impertinent alledging of it for what if he had brought his instance out of the first of Gen In the beginning God made Heaven and Earth I might have said what care I for that being impertinently alledged as to the thing in hand and if Mr. Danson may be a judge I will appeal to him what he thought of that expression Mr. Danson I thought as you have said not that you did reject or slight the Scripture but the use I made of it Mr. Danson I bring it to prove that the World that here is distinguished from those that believed through the Apostles word that these persons might know that God sent Jesus Christ which is part of the illumination Mr. Ives Here you have brought a text to prove something but not to the purpose For you are to bring a text to prove that some unbelievers were enlightened you are now to Instance in parts therefore first shew me where any were enlightened that were not True believers Mr. Danson This is an instance but you do not understand it when Christ had said for their sakes I Sacrifice my self that they also may be Sanctified through the Truth v. 19. he then adds Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their Word that they also may be one as thou Father art in me and I in thee that they also may be one in us that the World may believe that thou hast sent me Our Lord Jesus Christ doth here pray for those persons that should afterwards believe on him by the Apostles preaching for their Conversion that it may be a means of the Worlds Conviction of that more common believing and knowing which we do say is intended in this place by inlightened Mr. Ives You are under a mistake because my Argument is this that these qualifications are not applyable to any but True believers that is to no unbeliever you now only shew me that Christ prays for the World that the World may believe through the Apostles word which makes against you Mr. Danson Either you do not understand it and that 's your ignorance or yov will not and that 's your disingenuity Mr. Ives Pray Sir forbear I confess I am ignorant enough but it is not handsom for you to reflect so often upon me Mr. Danson I affirmed that our Lord Jesus Christ prays for Real believers those whom the Father had given to him and he speaks of this as one great end which he did design to obtain by their Conversion namely that the World thereby might be convinced not converted Mr. Ives How know you that Sir Mr. Danson The Word saith so Mr. Ives I Answer two things First that it is impertinent and not to the case and Secondly you give a wrong sense of the Text the first thing you are to shew is a Text where any are said to be inlightened that are not True believers and you tell me of a Text where Christ prays that the Apostles preaching may Convert others that others may believe through their word and then he prays afterwards that it may have this effect that the World may know that the Father sent him Now I hope it is Life Eternal to believe that Jesus Christ was sent from God Again If Knowledge and Enlightening were all one yet this Text doth not prove some did so know that were not True believers but only Christ prayed they might know Mr. Danson I deny that Mr. Ives Doth not the Scripture say so and this Scripture you bring makes no distinction of knowledge Mr. Danson He distinguisheth them from those persons that should believe on him through their word Mr. Ives Give me a Text where any man is said not to be a True believer and yet enlightened Mr. Danson This is unreasonable Mr. Ives It is reasonable therefore shew me where because this is so plentiful a word in Scripture You were once darkness but are now light in the Lord therefore walk as Children of the Light c. The word Light and Enlightened is a word frequently used Eph. 1.18 Heb. 10.32 There is not many more plentiful words in Scripture then this and therefore among all this variety I would have Mr. Danson shew me where this word Enlightened is applied to a man that is not a True believer Mr Danson I answer your demand is unreasonable that it must necessarily be brought in the same Terms for suppose it be inequivolent Terms it is enough this very word Enlightened in Heb. 6.4 is rendred in Chap. 10.32 Illuminated so that enlightening and knowledge are the same thing Mr. Ives Because likeness and similitude are the same thing therefore knowledge and light are the same thing I deny that for though sometime light and knowledge are in Scripture put for the same thing yet they are not alwaies but that which you are to do is to shew me where these Characters in Heb. 6. are applied to any but True believers now that was denied and you tell me you will not undertake the whole but you make no doubt to shew it in parts if not in the whole give me therefore the first Mr. Danson Here is a plain place John 1.7 That was the True light which lighteth every man that cometh into the World Mr. Ives This speaketh of such a light as lighteth every man that comes into the World either let us now be ingenious or let us all be Quakers for the truth is if you believe all men in the World are enlightened with the light of Christ I cannot understand how you or any that gives such a sense of that text should differ from their notion about the light within they so much speak of you are therefore to bring a text to prove that some men that were not True believers were yet enlightened for I deny the whole World were enlightened for this text speaks indeed of a universal light as the Sun may give a universal light and yet men that are blind are not enlightened doth it follow because the Sun is a universal light and enlightens the World that therefore every man in the World is enlightened for as I said there is a great many blind men and the Gospel is said to open mens eyes and to turn them from Darkness to Light c. You

not therefore follow that no True believer can fall away and the text speaks of the sheep of Christ with reference to that glory they shall have at the day of Judgment and then and there Christ will say to the sheep sit on my right hand and to the goats sit on the other hand for saith he my sheep hear my voice and follow me that is the discriminating character of them and those that do so there is the recompence given them viz. Eternal Life neither shall any pluck them out of Christ's hands and I believe it for neither Death nor Devils can take them away when once he saith to them Come yea blessed Come my sheep Mr. Fowler You must needs think Mr. Ives we know where you are one sober word Do you think that the meaning of the text is this that those that follow Christ shall never perish Do you give this as your Judgment Mr. Ives What if I did say that those that follow Christ shall be saved and never perish What then Is this false doctrine But Mr. Fowler I say Though you do not invade the room yet you do the office of an opponent and I wonder you should pretend your self a moderator while you speak beyond the line of a moderator But in the next place Mr. Fowler you are much mistaken in my interpretation I did not go about to lay the stress of my answer to shew that it was Christ's Argument to prove that they should not perish after they are saved But what if they should tell you so doth not Christ tell us he gives them Eternal Life and doth not he say as a further assurance of their everlasting Inheritance that they shall never perish and what absurdity is in this interpretation But I laid the stress of my Answer in this that there might be a certain number of People that can never perish in this World but God will by interposing grace carry them into the other World and land them there safely for ever which indeed I might believe without wronging what I have asserted but doth this prove that it is true of all believers and that no True believer can fall away because some True believers shall not for why may not I say as St. Augustine and others did that it is impossible for some persons to fall away and yet withall say that it is possible for some True believers to fall away totally and finally Mr. Fowler As for that of St. Augustine he never said that any True believer that had real faith in Christ might fall away Mr. Ives I will I say discourse it with you if you please to take the Chair and if you will not believe me Let Mr. Baxter speak for me he tells us that this was St. Augustine's opinion that some True believers may fall away totally and finally and that he asked Bishop Vsher in the presence of Dr. Kendal whether or no this was not Augustin's opinion and he confessed it was But saith Mr. Baxter least any one should scruple this I shall refer him to these passages following which when Mr. Ives was going to read Mr. Fowler interrupts him Mr. Fowler I will make short work of it you need not read it Here another interposes to Mr. Ives Would you have me dispute with all three It is a strong sign of a weak cause when three Men dispute with one Mr. Fowler This was not St. Augustin's judgment Mr. Ives You must tell Mr Baxter so and not me I believe Mr. Baxter knew as well as Mr. Fowler what St. Augustin's opinion was and so did Bishop Vsher who saith doubtless it was Augustin's opinion Mr. Fowler For Mr. Baxter I suppose you mean in his book of Directions he saith I am not certain that those that sincerely believe and are justified may fall away totally and finally I am sure saith be the Scripture seems to look that way and I am sure the Fathers seem to look that way Now I answer Mr. Baxter in this that the Scripture looks that way and the Fathers but seem to look that way Secondly For St. Augustine any body that is but a little acquainted with Learning knows that he in the business of Pelagius makes a distinction between those that had real and special grace and others And Augustine never said in his Life that any True believer ever fell away totally and finally and he writ a Book particularly of the perseverance of the Saints that they never fall away totally and finally And as for Bishop Usher you wrong that worthy Man Mr. Ives Mr Baxter saith he asked Bishop Usher in the presence of Dr. Kendal whether this was not St. Augustin's opinion and he said undoubtedly it was but if this will not serve I shall give you the quotations them selves Mirandum est quidem multumque mirandum c. Wonderful it is and much to be wondred at that God to some of his children whom he hath regenerated in Christ and to whom he hath given Faith Hope and Love should not give perseverance Aug. de Corrept grat Cap. 8. Again he saith Ex duobus autem piis c. that of two being both Godly perseverance should be given to the one and not Given unto the other belongs to the unsearchable judgment of God Aug. de bono persev Cap. 8. Mr. Baxter saith it was not only St. Augustin's opinion but it was the opinion of Prosper and Fulgentius and of the Church of God for 13 or 14 hundred years and of most Christians in the World And that the choisest men for Learning and Diligene Holyness and divine Illumination and such as were the great defenders of the grace of God against Pelagius were of this mind that true believers might totally and finally fall away See Mr. Baxter's account of the Saints perseverance Page 5.6.17 c Mr. Ives Mr. Danson you are to prove to me that that in Heb. 8. is spoken of all True believers or this that all the promises that are made to the Israel of God are made to all True believers Mr. Danson I proved it by this Argument if True believers cannot be plucked out of Christ's hand Mr. Ives No if the sheep of Christ cannot be plucked out of Christ's hands then no True believer can I denied that major therefore prove it and conclude if no sheep can no True believer can Mr Danson If the sheep of Christ contains all True believers then the promise that is made to the one is made to the other But the sheep of Christ contains all True believers Ergo the promise that is made to one is made to the other Mr. Ives I deny the minor that the sheep of Christ in John 10. contains all True believers Mr. Danson If the description that is here given of sheep agrees only to True believers then the sheep of Christ in the 10th of John is comprehensive of all True believers but the description that is here agrees only to such Ergo Mr. Ives

have followed me in the regeneration or in the Resurrection shall sit upon 12 Thrones judging the 12 Tribes of Israel Now this promise seems to be absolute and Judas was one of those 12 to whom it was made but the condition implyed was that they should alway to the end continue in his service and therefore Judas falling away and not performing the condition never came to receive the fruition of the promise Again 1 Sam. 2.30 I said indeed that thy house the house of thy Father should walk beforeme for ever but now the Lord saith be it far from me for them that honour me I will honour c. So the Land of Canaan is often promised to the seed of Abraham for an everlasting possession yet Deut. 4.27 the Lord tells them that if they corrupt themselves He will scatter them among the Nations and they shall be left few in number among the Heathen where he will lead them And so Ezek 11.17 18 19. God promises as one would think upon the first view absolutely that he would gather Israel from among the People and give them one heart and put a new spirit in them but yet he tells them in Chap. 36.27 37. v. compared together that he will do this upon a condition as is there exprest yet for all this will I be inquired of by the house of Israel and so Jer. 31. Jer. 32.40 41 there we read of a Covenant which some call absolute but I must needs say an absolute Covenant in their sense is absolute non-sense in which God promises many things but yet he tells the same People Isa 55.3 That IF they will incline their Ears and come to him he will make an everlasting Covenant with them even the sure mercies of David in this sense God's promises that sem absolute in form are to be conditionally understood As he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting Life and shall not come into condemnation John 8.34 John 5.24 Psalm 125.1 He that trusts in the Lord shall be as mount Sion that never shall be removed Now if these promises are absolute then this must be the sense of such Scriptures that if men have once truly believed and trusted in God they shall inevitably be saved let them hereafter trust or distrust believe or disbelieve or whether they be not or whether they be Whoremongers Adulterers or Idolaters yet they shall be saved and abide for ever Now if this be not the sense then these promises and all of that kind must be understood conditionally that he that believeth and continueth in believing and that trusteth in the Lord and continueth in so doing upon these tearms and conditions he shall be saved and abide for ever and to this agrees all these plain and express Scriptures which being well considered will explain all those texts and promises that seem to be absolute as to the form of them John 5 10. IF YE keep my Commandments ye shall abide in my Love and John 14.23 IF any man love me he will keep my sayings and my Father will love him and we will come unto him and dwell with him 1 Col. 1.21 22 23. And you that were in time past Strangers and Enemies in your minds by wicked works now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh to present you blameless and unreproveable in his sight IF YE continue in the Faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel c. Heb. 3.14 We are made partakers of Christ IF WE hold fast the beginning of OUR CONFIDENCE firm unto the end Rev. 10. be thou faithful unto Death and I will give thee a crown of Life Mat. 24.13 he that endureth to the end shall be saved Heb. 10.38 the just shall live by Faith but if he draw back my Soul shall have no pleasure in him Much like these promises that seem absolute are such Scriptures that promise eternal Life to men without any exception or making the least question of their perseverance when that life and blessing promised is suspended upon their change as he that believeth shall not see Death and he that drinketh saith our Saviour of the Water that I shall give him shall never Thirst this plainly implies that these promises suppose their continuance in so doing so Christ saith he that confesseth me before men him will I confess before my Father which is in Heaven whosoever shall deny me before men him will I deny before my Father which is in Heaven Mat 10.32 33. Now Judas did confess Christ before men but he had no right or claim to this promise because he did not Persevere in this confession in like manner Peter denyed Christ before men but he was not denyed by Christ before his Father in Heaven because he did not persist and dye in the denying of him But yet we may see that the promises of the one and the threatening of the other is made without exception and wherever we read of any such promises a possibility of a change is supposed for when the Scripture saith He that believeth in the Son bath everlasting Life and shall not come into condemnation it doth no more suppose it impossible for that man to fall away and have this promise suspended then the other text that saith He that believeth not shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth or remaineth upon him doth suppose it Impossible for this man ever to believe and to have the wrath of God or the execution of vengeance suspended upon his believing to this may be reduced all Scriptures that seem to promise a blessing or threaten wrath according to mens present state and condition though both the one and the other may be suspended upon their change and that an impossibility of a change is not to be understood more by the one Scripture that promises Salvation to the believer then by the other that tells us wrath remains upon the unbeliever But to this it is usually replyed that though it be true there are promises that are conditional yet God hath promised to perform those conditions for them to whom be graciously makes such promises and therefore it is not possible for any True believer to fall away finally This perswasion is grounded upon the promises of the second kind that I before premised and they are such promises as 2. Thes 2 3. But the Lord is faithful who shall stablish and keep you from evil Phil. 1.6 He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ 1 Cor. 8 9. Who shall also confirm you to the end c. 1. Pet. 1.5 Who are kept by the mighty power of God through faith unto Salvation Phil. 2 12 13. Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling for it is God that worketh in you to will and to do of his good pleasure 1 Thef 5.24 Faithful is he which hath called you Who also

may be had in the service of Sin and Sathan saith he and in the fulfilling the lust of the Flesh and of the Mind and in the unfruitful works of Darkness let us eat and drink for to morrow shall be as to day and much better but he further adds this Argument viz. none have right to Heaven but under the notion of a reward but wicked and ungodly men that live in contempt of God and all good have no right to Heaven under the notion of reward Ergo they have no right at all Thus far Mr. Woodbridge late Minister of Newbury enters his protest against Mr. Eyers After this rate Mr. Burroughs upon Remission of Sin reasoneth page 25. That God doth not stay till a Sinner be made Godly and then justifieth him but this saith he is one of the mysteries of Remission that all sins are pardoned both past present and to come This puts me in mind of him who in the time of selling indulgences bought a pardon for all sins to come as well as for all sins past and presently after went and robbed the Popes Legate of a great sum of Money which he had raised by indulgences hereupon the man was questioned before Authority for his so doing to which he gives in this answer for his defence that the Legate had no cause to complain because he had granted him a pardon of this if it were a sin as well any other sin that hereafter he should be guilty of May not any man if this doctrine be true take the same liberty to commit any the most enormious crimes and bring this in barr to divert divine vengeance when he shall be impleaded for it and say true Lord I was guilty of horrid Crimes and added Drunkenness to Thirst but I was pardoned of all sins past present and to come and therefore it is not just thou shouldest judge me for them To this agrees Mr. Crandon against Mr. Baxter in page 11. 12 of his Preface which book hath Mr. Carills commendatory Epistle to it and commended by Mr Christopher Fowler in his Devil at Noon Second part page 35. he calls it a pious fraud in Ministers since the Reformation to call for so much Repentance for sin and such degrees of contrition sometimes saith he you may hear them say much of the riches of Gods free grace c. but in conclusion the Preacher as if he had been deputed to the office of the Cherubims to keep the way of the Tree of Life with his flaming Sword turning every way affrightening poor people from all hope of entring saying no prophane nor unclean person hath right to meddle with this grace No First he must have such bea rt preparations and prejacent qualifications before they draw near to partake of mercy such hath heen and still is saith he the doctrine delivered in many congregations in this Nation that I have not without grief been often an Ear witness of from the mouths of many Ministers so that saith he I am afraid the Lord hath a controversie against the Ministery c. What for telling people that no prophane or unclean person hath any right to partake of the mercy of God or to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven I have more reason to fear the Lord hath a Controversie with those Ministers that call such pious truths pious frauds to the debauching of man-kind See more to this purpose in Mr. Mortons Threefold state of Man page 620. He that is united to Christ by true Faith saith he as all the regenerate are whether he dies in Repentance or in Impenitency be always dies in Christ And to this may be added some doctrines observable in a book Intituled the Marrow of modern Divinity ushered into the World with Mr. Caryll's Mr. Strongs and Mr. Borroughs's and others commendatory Epistles and with Mr. Venings to the second part of it which book hath been printed near half a score times in the 8th Edition 1658. page 204. You have this kind Of a Dialogue between a Minister and a young Christian Minister If at any time in any case thou art drawn aside by reason of the weakness of your Faith and strength of Temptation and so prevailed with to swerve from the mind and will of the Lord then beware of conceiving that the Lord sees this as any transgression of the law of works c When ever your consciences tell you that you have broken any of the 10. Commandments do not conceive the Lord looks upon you as an angry Judge and that he will give you your portion in Hell fire no assure your selves that your God in Christ will never un-Son you nor yet as touching your Justification and eternal Salvation will he love you ever a whit the less though you commit never so MANY and SO GREAT sins for this is a certain truth that as no good either in you or done by you did move him to justifie you and give you eternal Life so NO EVIL in you or DONE BY YOU can move him to take it away from you being once given And the Author in his Epistle confesseth of himself That he was a dozen years a professor of Religion before he knew any other way to eternal Life then to be sorry for his sins and ask forgiveness and strive and endeavour to fulfill the Law and keep the Commandments according as Mr. Dod and other godly men had expounded them But then page 179. The Christian replies would you not have believers eschew evil and do good for fear of Hell and hope of Heaven Minister No indeed I would not have any believer do either the one or the other for so far as they do their obedience is slavish and again in page 189. Christian What think you of a Preacher that in my hearing said that he durst not exhort or perswade sinners to believe their sins were pardoned before he saw their lives reformed for fear they should take more liberty to sin Minister Why What should I say but that I think that Preacher was ignorant in the Mistery of Faith c. What sha●l we say to these things That are the proper appurtenancies of the impossibility of any true believers final apostacies for if these things be true then all the foresaid doctrine must needs be true viz. that though believers commit never so many and so great sins and whether they die in Repentance or Impenitency they shall be saved and that they that preach remission of sins upon Repentance and reformation of their lives by this doctrine are ignorant Preachers for so the Author of this modern divinity stiles them But the Author was very happy in intituling his book modern Divinity For sure I am the Scripture Divinity and this modern Divinity are more strange to one another then ever the Jews were to the Samaritans with whom they would have nothing to do neither is Mr. Danson behind hand in these Antinomian notion who trades in absolute promises as well as