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A47928 Toleration discuss'd, in two dialogues I. betwixt a conformist, and a non-conformist ... II. betwixt a Presbyterian, and an Independent ... L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 1670 (1670) Wing L1316; ESTC R1454 134,971 366

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Candour which I expected from You. But the Main Stress of your Argument lies against the Whole Party of the Non-Conformists And in effect against any Toleration at all with little or no Regard to those Accommodable Points that might have brought the Matter in Difference to some sort of Composure C. It is very True That I am utterly against Tolerating the Whole Party as a Thing of Certain Inconvenience to Religion and Government and to the Ruine no less of your selves then of the Publique Will Presbytery ever satisfie the Independents Conscience Or will Liberty any better suit with the Presbyterians And yet you could both of you joyn with the Directory against the Common Prayer with the Authority of the Pretended Assembly against That of the Church wherein you have given Proof to the World that you were not United upon any Consideration of Conscience but with a Design upon a Common Booty Ye overturn'd the Government Divided the Spoil Enrich't your selves Embroiled every thing and Settled Nothing And yet in those Days there was no Act of Uniformity to hinder you This is enough to make Evident that the Non-Conformists are Intolerable in Conjunction But if you think fit to make a Tryal how far any sort of them may agree with our Standard of Toleration Apart Plead you the Cause of the Presbyterians and let your Brother Independent here that has been a Witness to our whole Debate take up the Cudgels for his own Party Not forgetting that In the Question of TOLERATION the Foundation of FAITH GOOD LIFE and GOVERNMENT is to be Secur'd N. C. According to what Latitude are we to understand that which you call the Foundation of FAITH C. According to the Latitude of the APOSTLES CREED wherein are conteined All the Articles of Simple Faith which are Necessary to be Explicitly Believed And whatsoever was found by Them to be Necessary and Sufficient to Salvation continues so still and ought to be so Received and Acknowledged by Us without insisting upon Deductions and Consequences as Points of Prime and Fundamental Necessity though Occasionally and Obliquely they become Necessary too This is the Word of Faith which we Preach that if thou shalt Confess with thy Mouth the Lord Iesus and shalt believe in thy Heart that God hath raised him from the Dead thou shalt be saved Here 's the Foundation of FAITH And in That of GOOD LIFE respect is to be had to Morality that nothing be Tolerated to the Encouragement of Loosness Sensuality and Dissolution of Manners As there is an Absolute Necessity of Providing against Doctrines and Opinions of this Quality so I think there will be no great Difficulty either of Discovering or of Suppressing them For they are of a Condition so Notorious that they ly open to all People and then so Odious they are by reason of the Gross Impiety and Scandal that they have no Friends upon the Face of the Earth for their own sakes I mean but the profest Enemies Christianity and Nature It is another Case when they are made use of in Subserviency to a Faction So that you may save your selves the Trouble of Catechising your Brethren upon These two Points and rather spend your Time upon the remaining Caution for Securing the Government which will be much more to Our Purpose For the Matter we are now upon is a Question rather of Policy then of Religion Toleration Discuss'd BETWIXT A PRESBYTERIAN AND AN INDEPENDENT SECT XXV An Enquiry upon a Short and Impartial Survey of the Rise Progress and Issue of the War raised by the Two Houses in 1641. Whether were more Criminal The PRESBYTERIANS or the INDEPENDENTS Presb. IN all our Arguments and Pleas for Toleration we are still hit in the Teeth as in Bar to our Demands with Dangerous Practises and Opinions The Murther of the Late King The Over-turning of the Government and that we have a mind to serve the Son as we did the Father Now forasmuch as the Fact is undeniable and truly the Exception but Reasonable as to those that did it We are first to clear our selves of that Execrable Fact wherein I am content to become an Undertaker for the Presbyterians And to speak afterward to the Iustification of our Principles and Opinions Indep Give me leave then to Plead the Cause of the Independents and to observe to you in the first place that the Scotch Non-Conformists under King Iames were Totally Presbyterian and so were the English Puritans under Queen Elizabeth Presb. Were the Anabaptists Familists and Brownists that started up in Those Days Presbyterians Indep Some Dutch Anabaptists came over indeed in 1560 but one Proclamation scatter'd them Immediately And then for the Familists and Brownists you speak of Alas They gave the Executioner more Trouble then the Government and were Supprest as soon as Detected But the Formal and United Confederacy was still Presbyterian and you must overthrow all the Memorials and Records of Those Times to gainsay it Briesly If you look forward you will find the Presbyterians again under King Iames at Hampton Court The Presbyterians again in the several Parliaments under King Charles the First and so the same Hand still to the beginning of the Scottish Broils in 1637. which was but the Midwifry of the Plot they had been so long a Hammering Presb. You make nothing it seems of the Turbulent Independents that went away to New England Holland and other Parts beyond the Seas with all the Clamour and ●…ancour Imaginable against the Government Indep Not to Justifie them in their Clamour I must yet recommend their Departure as a fair Testimony that they withdrew upon Conscience For by this Secession they put themselves out of Condition to carry on a Faction Whereas The Presbyterians that had a further Design in Prospect stood their Ground watch'd their Advantages and gain'd their End Presb. All this is but Talk without Proof Indep It will be granted I suppose that the Scottish Tumults in 1637. and the R●…bel ion upon the neck of them in 1638 were advanc'd upon a Presbyterian accompt and consequently that Those were of the same Leven that Voted them Good Subjects and Money for their peins and Adopted them their DEAR BRETHREN for so doing Were not the Principals of the Faction in the Long Parliament every Man of them Presbyterian Were not the Army and Ass●…mbly Presbyterian And all their Votes Actions and Conclusions Influenc'd accordingly Who were they that Invited the Scots into England the Second time Nov 7. 164●… That Imposed the Covenant Prosecuted the War under the Countenance of it and made it the Test of Discrimination betwixt the Malignant and Well affected Parties That Settled the Directory Nay the Presbytery it self Were not These Presbyterians Who were they but Presbyterians that stripp't the King of his Regalities and Revenues Commission'd an Army against him Fought him Pursu'd him and in fine brought him to utter Ruine Presb. You will find the Late King of another
the State of the Kingdom Decemb. 15. 1642. But after all This What are these People for Number and Resolution that make such a Clutter N. C. Thousands of the Upright of the Land Petition for Peace Pag. 21. Multitudes Dissent and Resolve to Continue so doing Whatever they suffer for it Pa. 20. And to forego the U●…most of their Earthly Concernments rather then to Live and Die in an Open Rebellion to the Commanding Light of God in their Consciences To Ruine Men in their Substantials of BODY and LIFE for Ceremonies is a Severity which ENGLISHMEN will not long time by any means give Countenance unto Pa. 23. To Execute Extremity upon an Intelligent Sober and Peaceable Sort of Men so Numerous among all Ranks may prove Exceeding Difficult unless it be Executed by such Instruments as may strik ●…errour into the whole Nation P. 25. C. Was not Queen Elizabeth told of Thousands and Hundreds of Thousands that sighed for the Holy Discipline And that since neither Parliament nor Convocation-house would take it into Consideration They might blame Themselves if it came in by such Means as would make all their Hearts Ake The Truth will prevail says the Demonstrator in spight of your Teeth and all the Adversaries of it The most Unnatural Ca●…eless and Horrible Rebellion that This or perhaps any other Age in the World hath been Acqu●…nted with To borrow the Words of his Late Majesty was Profaced with a Petition in the Name of all the Men Women Children and Servants of Edinburgh against the Service-Book And Another in the Name of the Noblemen Gentry Ministers and Burgesses against the Service-Book and Book of Canons ●…rotesting afterwards that if any Inconvenience should fall out by reason of Pressing those-Innovations it was not to be imputed to Them that sought all Things to be Reformed by Order This Commotion in Scotland led the Way to Our succeeding Broils in England Which were promoted by the like Artifices Great Numbers of his Majesties Subjects Opprest by Fines Imprisonments Stig●…atizings and Many Thousands of Tradesmen and Artificers Empoverish't by a Generality and Multiplicity of Vexations Great Numbers of Learned and Pious Ministers Suspended Deprived and Degraded In fine from Pamphlets they advanced to Petitions from Petitions to Tumults and from thence into a Formal State of War N. C. So that from This Agreement in Method You will pretend to Infer a Conformity of Design C. From This Agreement in Method and from the Natural Tendency of This Method I think a Man may honestly Conclude it can be Nothing else and I doubt not but upon a Sober Examination of the Matter I shall find You of the same Opinion The most Sacred of all Bonds is That of Government next to That of Religion and the Reverence which we owe to Humane Authority is Only Inferior to That which we owe to God Himself This being duly Weighed and that the Lesser Obligation must give place to the Greater As for Instance Reason of State to Matter of Religion and Humane Laws to the Law Divine What has any Man more to do for the Embroyling of a Nation but first to Puzzle the Peoples Heads with Doubts and Scruples about their Respective Duties to God and Man and then to Possess them that This or That Political Constitution has no Foundation in the Holy Scriptures To bid Them stand fast in the Liberty wherewith Christ hath made them Free Galat. 5. 1. And Finally to Engage the Name of God and the Credit of Religion in the Quarrel N. C. And do not you your self believe it better to Obey God then Man C. Yes but I think it best of all to Obey Both To Obey God for Himself in Spirituals and Man for God's sake in Temporals as He is God's Commissioner But tell me Are you not Convinced that the most likely way in the World to stir up Subjects against their Prince is To Proclaim the Iniquity of his Laws and then to Preach Damnation upon Obedience N. C. What if it be Does it follow because Religion may be made a Cloak for a Rebellion That therefore It is never to be Pleaded for a Reformation C. Truly I have seldom known a Conscientio●… Reformation accompanied with the Circumstances of Our Case Here is first a Character of the Non-Conformists drawn by their own Hand and set off with such Flourishes of Purity and Perfection as if the Scribes and Pharisees Themselves had sit for their Picture In the Second Place You demand partly a Reformation partly a Toleration And in the Third You assure Us that all England shall be the better for 't Of These Two Points hereafter In the Fourth You enlarge upon your Grievances and instead of applying to the Government on the behalf of the People You are clearly upon the Strein of Appeal to the People from the Rigour of the Government Your Text is Liberty of Conscience But the Stress of your Discourse lies upon the Liberty of the Subject The Decay of Trade Scarcity of Money Fall of Rents The Substantials of BODY and LIFE Imprisonment c. Upon the Whole Your Writings want nothing but Form of a Direct Indictment of King and Parliament for Persecution and Tyranny And would very well bear the Translation of their being led on by the Instigation of the Devil Not having the Fear of the Lord before their Eyes If You can defend this manner of Proceeding pray do it N. C. What can be of greater Concernment to Governours then to Discern and Consider the State of their People as it is indeed And Why may it not be Minded of Subjects and spoken of without any Hint or Thought of ●…ebellion Pag. 27. C. But What can be of greater Mischief to Governours then under Colour of Remonstrating to Them the State of their People at the Same time to disaffect the People by an Odious Accompt of the Errors Misfortunes and Calamities of the Government Governours are not to be told their Faults in the Market-Place Neither are Ministers of the Gospel by your own Rules to be admitted for Privy-Counsellors This is spoken as to the Good Office of your Information As to the Intention of it I am not so bold as to Judge your Thoughts But if You had any Drift at all in it and Consider'd what You did I do not see how You can acquit your self of Evil Meaning Suppose the Whole Invective True And that you suffer for Righteousness to make the Fairest of it What Effect do you expect these Discourses may have upon the People and Waat upon the Magistrate Will not every Man conclude that the English are the Wretched'st Slaves upon the Face of the Earth Neither Liberty of Religion nor of Person for any Man that makes a Conscience of his Ways The Whole Nation Groaning under Beggery and Bondage Now see What Effects these Impressions may reasonably produce and Those Effects are a●… reasonably to be taken for the