like warning and exhortation given to them they do not forbear and forsake them u Artie 55. This Order and Discipline we are told at the end of the Book hath been resolved and concluded in no less than 27. National Synods from 1559. to 1637. The places the years and the days of the Month being all there named Now what hath your prating Philagathus to say to this Is this Persecution or hard usage or is it not If it be not so in them there is none among us For we do no more than they do and if those who are deprived for Rebellion against Ecclesiastical Order happen to be very poor and fall into distress we can help that no more than they N.C. I am loath to condemn those Churches C. Then acquit us Or if any list to condemn both a great many more must fall into the same condemnation with us Even at Frankfort in Queen Maries days those who dissented from Mr. Horn and Mr. Chambers c. found fault with them for desiring to be of their Church without subscribing their Discipline a thing said they which you your selves would never grant to others x Troubles at Frankf p. 85. N. C. Pray do not run so far back C. I need not for it is sufficient to let you know that you condemn your selves when you make all these complaints against us You were very peremptorily resolved heretofore that the Magistrate might suffer none to instruct the people but such as he thought fit Who can deny it said a Writer y Apology for Mr. J. Goodwin 1653. in the late Times to be a priviledge and duty of a Master of a Family to admit only such to teach in his house as his Conscience shall be satisfied in and warrant him to receive or to come a little nearer will the Churches distinguished by the name of Independents and Anabaptists admit of any person wholly unknown or known to be grossly ignorant a scandalous to teach in their Congregations without their approbation and assent first obtained If not as it is presumed they will not let no man scruple to allow thâ—â— thing to be the Right of the Magistrate a a publick Parent in the disposal of publick Places and Revenues to persons to be approved by himself or such a he shall think meet to be trusted therein which is claimed as a right by every private Parent N. C. We are not against this C. Why do you complain then as I you not the King and those he appoints should judg who are fit to be imployed in teaching his subjects N. C. You know our Ministers are fit enough but they cannot conform 〈◊〉 some Laws C. Hath his Majesty power to exact Laws for the better ordering of the Church or no N. C. I love not to be questioned about these matters C. You did not stay to be askt the Question heretofore but declared the Magistrate not only might but ought to establish Ecclesiastical Laws and more than that compel men to observe them or else be gone z Answer to A. S. 1644. p. 12. N. C. That 's too quick work C. His Majesty says so too and bids you be gone only to your own homes there you are free But you were so in love with compulsion heretofore that you called it the life and power of your Government At least this was the sense of a great number Witness that Declaration of the Kingdom of Scotland in which they complain that Religion was not settled according to the Covenant in life and power a I find it in the Answer to it and to the Commiss upon the New Propos 4 Jan. 1648 p. 7. i. e. as the complaint goes on Liberty was granted for all ways of Worship and it was ordained that none should be forced to the establishment N. C. Would it were so ordained now C. That wish would have been better when you had power to do what you desire But then you wisht quite contrary and indeed ever thought it requisite to good Government that the people should be tyed strictly to the Laws and punished according to their fault if they transgressed This was so far from cruelty or hard usage in your opinion that it was thought useful and necessary not only for the General good but his particular benefit who suffered Mr. Walter Travers b Answ to a Supplicatory Epistle of G. T. p. 24. a person much esteemed by your Fore-fathers declared long ago That if the Magistrates did not command and compel the people by severity of Laws and Punishments to serve the Lord what ignorant and ungodly perswasion soever they have to the contrary they shall not only become guilty of not doing the duty God requires of them but also no Christian Estate or Policy could stand For this would soon be every mans answer in case of being enjoyned any thing concerning God or Men how holy or just soever it were that did dislike him that his Conscience is against it N. C. I never heard of any good that hath been wrought on any by these punishments C. But others have as the same person tells you c Ib. p. 18. For both many others are hereby kept in duty that they do not in like sort fall away and who can tell what it may please God to work even in them hereafter by this means which have not yet profited by it Sure I am it hath done good to many in times past who by this means have been recovered from their undutiful disobedience unto a godly Reformation And what if it have not profited some must the Medicine therefore be neglected d St. Aug. words Epist 48. because the Pestilential Contagion of certain persons is Incurable N. C. No. But it is hard to conceive how such severe courses should bring men back to the Church C. You could understand it heretofore without any difficulty and thought you could demonstrate that they were very powerful means e Modest defence of London Ministers Letter to the Assembly licensed by Mr. Cranford 1646. pag. 22 23 24. to bring in wandring souls The reasons you gave were these Some wordly lust whether it be content or discontent being usually the ground of Heresie or Sects deprive men of that content which was the ground of their Error and you strike at it in the very root Many adhere to a Party rather out of Policy than Conscience whom when their design fails you will see fall off like leaves in Autumn It will easily appear then how a Prison or other penalty these are your words may work upon a Sectary First it will remove the Beam of Carnal Content which blinded his Eyes Secondly It may set Conscience on work as rough usage did Joseph's Brethrens Thirdly It may free a man from distractions and seducing company that he may have leisure and opportunity seriously to bethink himself of his grounds c. which thing by Gods gracious assistance may work a strange
own accord wave them all and desire them to stand by or go into whose service they please intending to shift as well as I can without them Now what have you to say I am not only a single person as you see but quite naked and disarm'd of all those weapons wherewith he is so well appointed so that you may hope to prevail if Truth cannot defend me And that I protest Is the thing I will contend for not for Victory N. C. Come on then Say well and do well How can you defend so much as the Title of your Book Are you a friend to those whom you cannot endure within five mile of you c Pag. 4 of his Book but urge the Law against them C. You have answered your self and and would have called him carnal I am sure should One of us have askt you such a Question Do you that are so Spiritual understand no other kindness but what is done to your Bellies I love you so well that I would have you Innocent and am such a Friend to you that I desire to see you at the widest distance from any sin N. C. Pray stay Sir your kindness is much suspected If I should propose some such question to you as Christ diâ— to Peter Simon lovest thou me you durâ— not say thou knowest I love thee d Ib. C. No indeed N. C. Did not I tell you so C. I think I may conclude withouâ— any offence that you are not yet sâ—â— knowing as to search the heart Youâ— Philag indeed supposes our very souls liâ— open to you else why doth he endeâ—vour to satisfie me e Preface pag. 1. that he doth nâ—â— know himself to have ever received the least injury from me in deed or word 〈◊〉 thought But you must pardon us if we be of another mind and cannot appeaâ— to you as St. Peter did to Christ If yoâ— will judg of us by our words then 〈◊〉 can more than say I can protest that even those Debates were writ in kindness to you and he ought to have thanked him that told you of your faults had you any mind to amend them I protest also that I had no respect to any particular person in that passage which he thinks so full of deadly poyson f P. 4. of the Book and therefore it was the aking of his own Tooth that made him snap at me But why do I spend the time in such trivial things as these The Prefaces to both my Books might have satisfied any unpassionate Reader what my intention was But he very fairly takes no notice of them least they should have made him throw away a great deal of the civil languge he had to bestow upon me And for as good a reason I make no doubt he over-lookt the Continuance of our Debate because it would have undone a good part of his Book which is there already answered g As about the non-execution of Laws sharpness scandal and many more too long to number N. C. I must not let you pass thus with the Reputation of good Nature It was not kindly done of you to bring in the N. C. uttering such words as make the King to be a Tyrant h P. 8. of his Book C. As imply you should have said But I pray tell me What shall be done to this false tongue'd Philagathus who tells us in another place very boldly that I bring in the N. C. speaking Treason even saying that the King is a Tyrant Will you never leave this Trade of Lying N. C. You must pass by that C. If he had not told the world an hundred Lies more I should not have taken notice of â—t As to the thing he charges me withal I did but set down those words which more besides me have often heard and supposing they were rashly spoken without consideration of what they implyed let them go with that Confession What greater Candor could he desire and what reason was there for his pains to excuse the N. C. from judging the King a Tyrant save only that he was glad to snatch an opportunity to praise as well as be could the mercy and clemency of his Majesty towards them But I believe I shall make him wish he had held his tongue and spared his ill-savour'd and ill-contrived Rhetorick For first 〈◊〉 only tells us that the Sober Non-Confâ—rmists â—refar from thinking the King a Tyrant i Ib. p. 8. It seems there are some so madâ— and desperate as to be of the contrary opinion And how many who can tell or what may be the issue oâ—â—t N. C. For the love of God be not severe against that slip Or let the Sober men make an amends for their defects 〈◊〉 it is possible they love his Majesty more than you C. And it is possible they may not love him at all Was there ever such a wretched Orator to plead any mans cause in so great a matter as this Would any man of wit have apologiz'd for his Friends with his it may be 's it is possible for any thing I can tell and such like words with which his Book abounds N. C. Whatever his words are he doubts not as you may see but that N. C. have a greater Sense of his Majesties mercy than C. C. Why so N. C. Because they have been so great offenders C. Did ever any man hear such Reasons Do we find that they to whom much is forgiven commonly love very much Are there no ungrateful wretches in the world Or Hath it not been the constant complaint that the most are insensible or forgetful of benefits And doth not one refusal of mens deâ—â—â—es often blot out the memory of all former grants of grace and favour N. C. You forget our Saviours words which he quotes C. As he doth a number of other Scriptures nothing to the pâ—â—pose Thâ—y to whom much is forgiven will â—â—â—e much if they be truly penitent as that woman in the Gospel was but Who shall answer for all these mens Repentance and that it is never to be repented of N. C. Come let this alone C. But pray let us see whether this very man do not say those things which plainly strike him out of the number of the Sober N. C. N. C. Will you make him say or imply the King is a Tyrant C. You shall hear How can they be Martyrs and killed all the day long and the King be free from that imputationâ— Do they suffer any thing but according to the Laws And whose are the Lawâ— I beseech you but the Kings Can the Parliament make Laws or any body else but only the Sovereign See noâ—â— how this rash and desperate man hath intangled himself To say the Laws are tyrannical he confesses is Treason or next to it because it implies the King to be 〈◊〉 Tyrant page 8. And yet before he hath done he says in effect they are tyraâ—nical When he tells us the N. C. dâ— think that
that he thought letter upon letter might be as necessary as precept upon precept line upon line twice over which are the Prophets words Isa 28.10 C. He prophanes the Holy Scripture throughout his whole Book by using its words on every common and trivial occasion But let him repeat it a thousand times till he hath made his own head ake as well as his Readers I shall remain as innocent and you as guilty as before only he himsef will appear more boldly Ignorant For he is like those men who write of Countries they never saw who commonly tell a great many tales I have great cause to be confident that he never read this Act seriously about which he talks so much but only poured a flood of words with a great noise out of his own unfurnisht brains With these he hoped to make his credulous Readers like those who live near the falls of Nilus deaf to any other Information though never so certain N. C. You cannot think him so bold as to charge you with breaking an Act the matter of which he did not understand C. Then he is a dishonest man if having read it and understood it he would not confess the truth which is this Within two or three days after his Majesties return he desired the Parliament which then sate speedily to dispatch an Act of Indemnity which he had promised After it had passed the Commons he went to the Peers k Speech in House of Peers July 27. 1660. and expressed his impatient desire to have this Act presented to him for his Royal assent Accordingly upon Aug. 29. 1660. this Act was passed as an Act of free and General Pardon Indemnity and Oblivion And in the Preface to it these two intents and purposes of it are expressed First that no crime committed against his Majesty or his Royal Father shall hereafter rise in Judgment or be brought in Question against any one to the least indamagement of them c. Secondly To bury all Seeds of future discords and remembrances of the former Accordingly the Former part of the Act is for Indemnity and provides for mens safety by acquitting releasing and discharging all persons from all crimes save those excepted afterward committed from Jan. 1. 1637. till June 24. 1660. And then the other part which concerns our present-business is for Oblivion in these words To the intent and purpose that all Names and terms of distinction may be likewise put in utter Oblivion be it enacted that if any person or persons within the space of three years next ensuing shall presume maliciously to call or alledg * The particle Of is to be left out as appears by the Chancellours Speech made afward where he recites these words of or object against any other person or persons any name or names or other words of reproach any way tending to revive the memory of the late differences or occasions thereof that every such person so as aforesaid offending shall forfeit and pay unto the party grieved if he be a Gentleman ten pound c. This clause the Lord Chancellor at their adjournment Sept. 13. 1660. commended in his Majesties Name to their and all mens remembrance Now mark the Ignorance and the Malice of this Philagathus as he falssly stiles himself His bold Ignorance in that he would have the world believe I have violated nay horribly violated l Pag. 7. of the Preface this Law as it is an Act of Indemnity for in that stile he speaks when I have not so much aâ— a power to punish any man though he were not acquitted and discharged His malice in perswading you that it is the drift of my Book to provoke the Magistrates to break it in pieces in their anger as Moses did the Tables of Stone m Ib. p. 6. when it hath no design in those passages which have so netled him but either to shew that they act not according to their declared Principles in times past or that they have not so behaved themselves as to deserve the name of the only or most knowing and godly people which they commonly assume to themselves In which I will shew you by and by how they break this as well as other of his Majesties Laws But first let us mark again how rashly and impudently he charges me with the breach of this Law as it is an Act of Oblivion which must be distinguished from the other though they He confused as all things else in his head and how he manifestly discovers he never read it or with no care to understand it The Act saith we shall not object against any person any name or names or other words of reproach under such a penalty But this man saith with a bold face it is expressly provided in the Act of Indemnity that the crimes therein mentioned as forgiven should no more be objected to any man under a certain penalty p. 249. The same he saith in another place n Pag. 88. without any stick and that those old things must never more according to that Act be so much as rehearsed o P. 142. which is less then objected And more then this he affirms that we may not so much as speak of any Ordinance of Parliament which was formerly made p P. 254. and therefore like a man of an exceeding nice and tender Conscience he dares not so much as seem to know or remember that ever there were any such Ordinances q These are his very words as I mention A special way to Answer me by saying nay by knowing just Nothing But judg now of the modesty and sincerity of this man who makes bold as he speaks to take me to task for the breach of a Law whose words he never recites nay always puts other words of his own making in the room of them And judg of his discretion and understanding Who can let it enter into his thoughts that the Law prohibits us so much as to remember what was done in the late Times Suppose we hear them call us shortly the old and the implacable Enemy must we not so much as seem to call to mind that this was the stile of those days If they begin to talk of the Holy cause and the Good old cause must we according to this new Doctor seal up our lips and make as if we never heard of such a thing before What may we not so much as write a true History of what is past This is the thing no doubt they would be at We must forget as I told you at our last meeting r Contin of the Debate p. 66. all that is past and now believe you cannot err nay were always innocent This will be a fine way to keep posterity in Ignorance that you may do the like again and never be suspected till it be too late to prevent it A most admirable contrivance for which he will be well rewarded if he can make it good to turn us
Primitive Christians have set us an example and it is glorious in it self comfortable to those in whom this virtue is and the best way to thrive and prosper and attain their end The old N. C. being deprived took this course and neither thought it a just cause for a separation from us nor complained after this Scriblers manner but quietly submitted to the sentence Have you not seen the Protestation made by those who were suspended or deprived in the third of King James N. C. No. C. I 'le tell you then two or three Branches of it We hold say they l protestation of the Kings supremacy c. 160â— â—â—anch 8th that Kings by virtue of their Supremacy have power yea also that they stand bound by the Law of God to make Laws Ecclesiastical such as shall tend to the good ordering of the Churches in their Dominions and that the Churches ought not to be disobedient to any of their Laws c. But in case the King should command things contrary to the Word they declare m Branch 9th that they ought not to resist him therein but only peaceably to forbear obedience and sue unto him for grace and mercy and where that cannot be obtained meekly to submit themselves to the punishment And further n Branch 11th that he may by his Authority inflict as great punishments upon them for the neglect of his Ecclesiastical Laws as upon any other subjects c. N. C. I wish however that the punishments had been less C. Or they more patient Christians N. C. For then we should not have had these sad complaints of sufferings hardships and miseries C. And Persecution N. C. No he will not call it so though he confesses the N. C. in Scotland live in a hotter climate than we do here C. We understand his phrase very well They are intolerably persecuted though you be not N. C. He only says such severity being used against them as would make a mans heart to bleed o P. 244. of his Book C. Yes if Fame may be trusted as he adds which we know hath brought many a lye to him and is as little to be trusted as himself For you may be sure of this that they are better used a great deal than they used others heretofore N. C. Whence shall I have that assurance C. From a little Book newly come forth there and said to be published by Order where in answer to these complaints of Severity I find these words p modest and free Conference between a C. and a N. C. â—â—ant the present distemperâ— in Scotland 1669. p. 11. and more you may read p. 60. I must so far justifie the rigour you have met withal as to shew it is far short of yours The people are required to do nothing but live peaceably and joyn in worship whereas you made them swear to you And the Ministers are not made swear to maintain the present establishment mark this and to root out the contrary as you did they are only required to concurr in Discipline and to promise submission to Episcopacy A great peice of business most grievous and severe Impositions What will they conform unto who cannot away with such small things as these Must such reasonable Laws as these be changed only to humour them If they be not then there is no help for it they must be deprived And if they are so far from submitting to Episcopacy that they set themselves against the Government they may with the greater reason be sharply dealt withal who are so fiery as to oppose that which is so innocent But yet I can hear of no such terrible proceedings against them as this man talks of For the fore-named Book tells us q P. 32. whatsoever noise they make about Persecution it is more on the side of the C. than of the Nonconformists For to an ingenuous spirit it is a far greater trial if he be not above such things to be aspersed and railed at every where and made the hatred of the people than to suffer a little in the world Which suffering also I must tell you though it may conduce in the end much to their good yet it puts their Governours to a new trouble to inflict it after they have been long troubled nay persecuted by their perversness and fierce oppositions For tell me I pray you they are the words of St. Austin r Against Cresconius quoted in this case long ago 〈◊〉 plain Declar. 1590. pag. 68. when a man that is in a Phrensie doth vex the Physician and the Physician binds him whether do both persecute each other or no If that be not a Persecution which is done to his disease then certainly the Physician doth not persecute the phrantick or mad-man but he persecutes the Physician His Application is that the Penal Laws of the Princes were as the Bands of the Physician to bind the phrensie and furious out-rage of the Donatists Who made such a clatter there about their Persecution and grievous sufferings as this Philag and others do among us O said they when any Law came forth against them now your Bishops have inflamed the Rulers to persecute us They have made them our Enemies to deprive us of that liberty which Christ hath left us We ought not to be compelled our wills were made free and you may not offer a force to them And so they run on in long Declamations against the Catholick Church for using them so cruelly for all the world like this bawling Writer of yours who I think in my Conscience would have been more modest if he had not been so gently used N. C. Phy for shame C. I know what I say there is always less murmuring and men are more thankful for the liberty which is allowed them when Laws are strictly and constantly executed But now the Nation is filled as he confesses with clamours and noises of their great sufferings and miseries which he repeats in a most doleful manner I cannot tell how often This he begins withal p. 5 6 7. And again we meet with it p. 79 80. And thrice s P. 149 220 229. more before he comes to a tedious set discourse about it p. 231 c. In which he makes their contempt a part of their suffering a thing which they pour on us far more than we on them and Excommunication also which is commonly for their obstinate contempt of the Court nay the want of those degrees in the University which they may have a mind unto and of Dignities and Offices are thrown in to make up the tale though he pretends that he cares not to mention them whereby we may see how sorely they are hurt who have list and leisure to think of such things And yet he hath not done with it neither but we find him bemoaning their condition again t P. 283. as if like the poor Samaritan they were stript of their rayment wounded and half dead