the justifying the right and truth of religion by them Which I then conceived to signifie that your swords doe onely force men to be of your minds doe not give them reasons why they should Yet if after all this you tell me in earnest that this was not your meaning I shall cry you mercy for the mistake but not now enter into a dispute with you of that new question now proposed by you Whether religion that must signifie your doctrines as they are distinguisht from or opposed to ours or else 't will not be pertinent to our purpose being planted and in quiet possession may because I cannot imagine what verbe that syllable may is the moode of Plant it cannot be for that which is in possession is already planted But what it should be I must not divine for you Only at an adventure I shall make a plaine state If your doctrines were in quiet possession here and you should know of any man that taught the contrary to them must your sword be drawne against him or no I beseech you answer out of the sence of your brethren that we may know what to expect from you For my own part I shall make no scruple to tell you that though the defender of the Faith have the power of the sword given him by God to that end to governe in godlinesse and quiet and may therefore draw it effectually against any that raise sedition to bring in some other religion against that which is by law establisht or that vent doctrines that are in themselves seditious yet ought he not onely in case of any single doctrine or difference in religion where none of the civill interests are concerned no violent assault made or feared from the dissenters to unsheath his slaughtering sword against any such dissenter provided alwayes that that doctrine be not blasphemous And they that consenting to this truth will yet tyrannize over mens soules in ordine ad temporalia as you and some others have done over mens bodies and estates in ordine ad spiritualia shall never be excused by me and of this opinion I conceive there might be vouched as learned and as primitive-tempered Christians as any that are more zealously and so more bloudily minded Ibid. H. Aspersions be easily cast but should not be admitted when there are strong presumptions to the contrary without evident proofe The Catholiques were knowne good Patriots under our former Kings and under this our most gracious Prince we have good testimony greater then which cannot be given Answ The case is not here of aspersions but of matters of fact or attempts of Priests whereby Queen Elizabeth was known to have beene in danger On which provocation the lawes forbidding all such to come into the Kingdome made it such a legall presumption that if they did they should incurre that suspicion and sentence of the law And so every man knowing what measure to expect from the lawes were farther to be presumed either traiterous or madde if on those tearmes he would adventure on such a forbidden journey As for evident proofe which you require it belongs little to this matter because the very being in the Kingdome was a demonstration of contemning the law and an evidence that they were the men that were under that legall presumption which is farre more then a prooflesse aspersion with evidence to the contrary As for the fidelity of your Patriots under our formost Kings when they were of their opinions I shall not question it neither in like manner your behaviour to our present Soveraigne but onely tell you that the Queen Elizabeth lawes might be just for all that which was all we had now in hand and for the execution of them in latter times I before gave you an account Ibid. I. We doe professe our best reason hath brought us to our religion not our passion and we have as much reason to be believed as any others can Answ 'T is possible you may not for if mens actions give in any testimony against their words there will not be so much reason to believe such as when there is a concordance of them But if upon serious shrift you are able to professe this sincerity I shall be so charitable to believe you and allow you any hope of mercy for your errours which you can wish but yet tell you that by making this profession in the plurall number you doe somewhat prejudge it no man being so privy to the hearts of his fellow professours as to be a fit voucher for them every man must stand or fall to his owne Master Ibid. K. I was to answer and not to prove and therefore might in right deny what the Enquirer falsely supposes without proofe It is the respondents right to affirme the very point in question or to deny it without caring whether it be granted or no so he himselfe be ready to defend it and so he that can exact this as his owne shall not need to begge any thing and if he doe he cannot begge more then what he hath and what he affirmes or denies already For example I deny against Copernicus that the earth moves or I affirme that it is quiet and I stand to maintaine my saying Certainly this is no begging but yet to say that it is so may be a begging or if I should say it stood still because it doth not move were a frivolous speech but yet for all that no begging of the question Answ This vindication of your beloved petitio principii that stands you in such stead and returnes so frequently upon you I have already examined and discovered the mistakings of it and must now tell you againe that when the question is by the opponent proved by any medium it must never be lawfull for the respondent to deny it againe any farther then by denying the proofe on which it was inferred for this would be the denying the conclusion and petitio principii againe The respondent in this case cannot exact the question as his own nor any otherwise defend it then by repelling the weapons brought against him As for your great simile of denying the motion of the earth and your standing to maintaine your saying if you doe this by any other meanes then by denying or answering the proofes produced against you this is not the respondents part but will when you have done what you can appeare to be that vulgar Sophisme It being certaine that when a thing is questioned betwixt two the affirming without proofe is begging it and it being not the respondents part to prove or if he doe he becomes opponent it followes necessarily that the respondent that in time of disputation affirmes must either cease to be respondent or else begge the question C. 18. Answ to C. 18. A. We are to consider here not what is conceived but what is to be conceived Now what is to be conceived I have shewed namely that the Church understands better then he doth for right
interiourly though outwardly they seeme to be And thus you see we doe not cry all men downe to hell not yet any more then we are compelled to doe by the doctrine delivered to us about that point in Holy Scripture After this damning and firing men in the other world of which the Enquirer hath wrongfully accus'd us he proceedeth to blame us for sending Heretiques to the fire in this and therefore saith that he beleives that throughout antiquity we shall not finde the putting to death of any for religion but onely of such as began to kill first This provocation to antiquity howsoever the matter be can be of no force unlesse antiquity did condemne that practice as unlawfull because antiquity did not all it might doe but left divers things for posterity to adde as it should see expedient Besides forasmuch as concernes punishment of impious men and innovatours both by death and other wayes if the Authour had lookt better into antiquity he could not but have beleived otherwise as our Authours doe shew at large for it is cleare that amongst the Jewes in was the practice to punish impious people very severely and all such as with new doctrines sought to infect others punishing according to the prescript of Moyses law some with death other some by other temporall punishments The Canon law also and the Imperiall decree the same to all which the practice of the Church accords and lastly reason her selfe and the common rules of equity and justice doe permit yea and prescribe the same and these suffrages are so powerfull and prevailing as they suffice not onely for the justification of the Churches present practice but also for the condemnation of high presumption and arrogance of all who should be so hardy as to impugne or question it Neverthelesse this same practice of infliction of temporall punishments upon offenders against religion is not generall without any limitation or restraint as some may imagine it to be as if forsooth none of a different religion from ours could be exempted from them but contrariwise it admits exception in many cases as we are about to declare presently Know therefore that wheresoever any Kingdome or Common-wealth is setled in a just and a peaceable possession of Catholique religion without any notable commixture of contrary professions as for example in Italy or Spaine at this present In this case it is no cruelty or rigour to inflict temporall punishments upon all such as shall adventure to disturbe that setled peace by introducing thither any new doctrines upon pretence of whatsoever reformation and that this may be done stands with so much reason as cannot be probably contradicted Neither is this course of severity any defence unnecessary forasmuch as vitious and over-weening spirits are most efficaciously repressed and withheld from evill by feare of temporall punishments in this life because their chiefe aime is at temporall contentments in the same being moved more with the present then with those other that are spirituall and to come conscience and religion having little influence into what they doe In fine they are governed more with sence then reason with stripes then with Philosophy insomuch that neither the schooles of Philosophers nor the Temples of God can worke halfe so much with these wormes of the earth as temporall tribunals can Now though the enemy be never so despicable is he therefore to be neglected because the meanest Seducer may doe mischiefe as we finde by the effects of the Tubmen and againe because the grossest errours if they tend to liberty or be but new may be perswaded to the multitude as by the successes of Mahomet it is manifest and the rather in this case of ours because we experience daily that our people having been once possest that the Religion of the See Apostolique and of their own forefathers was superstition they are easily perswaded that the farther they depart from that Religion the more pure and reformed they shall be and so will be forward to run blindly on till they passe all the bounds of Christianity and reforme all to nothing for with such bewitched minds as these every new nonsense will be more acceptable and be received sooner then any old sense and this is the effects of those raylings against Rome which they have heard continually out of the Pulpits now for so many yeers together without any intermission But although this course of severity be necessary for the preventing of disturbances by innovation yet neverthelesse it is not to be extended unto all that any where amongst us doe teach or professe erroneous doctrines or Religions different from our own but only against corruptors or invaders that is to say such as break in by fraud or violence and disturbe the quiet of the Church For after such time at the invasion is past and the invaders gone and that they are succeeded by another generation which is not guilty of making any irruption but with whatsoever errour they are tainted it is contracted by the vice of education from their Parents and other such instructors and withall doe behave themselves peaceably I say that against such as these the Church doth not proceed nor execute the severity of the Lawes in force against Heretiques of this sort be at this day the descendents of first Protestants in this Kingdome whose ancestors that were the invaders lived about King Edward and Queen Mary Against these descendents the Church doth not presse the Canon Law though against the former sort it did and had just cause given so to doe Conformable to this difference between Protestant and Protestant doe the Catholiques in France and Polonia suffer the Protestants to live with them without molestation and to enjoy the liberties and Priviledges of the Kingdome as formerly they had done in Austria Stiria and Carinthia till such time at they became seditious and conspired against those who gave them freedome But now let it be noted and borne in memory that notwithstanding this gentle proceedings of Catholiques towards the Protestants after so many losses and injuries fuffer'd from them the same Protestants being themselves but juniors and living by sufferance fall hotly upon persecution of Catholiques wheresoever they grow to be the stronger side and that also in most Provinces after a very violent mercilesse and desperate manner slay imprison robbe banish defame in fine suffer Catholiques in no place where they are predominant and this against all right and common equity Which manner of proceeding I must tell the Inquirer is much worse and more unreasonable then Turkish for the Turkes though aliens Barbarians and Conquerours are sensible of the right the Christians of their conquer'd Provinces have for the free exercise of their Religion and therefore do not goe about to restraine them from it but let them continue quietly in that right of theirs and so they doe even to this day to the great shame of Protestants and Puritans here in these Kingdomes may it be spoken without
in stead of temporall advantages to be their portion they may be disciplin'd to better and more honest thoughts nay if the doctrines tend to liberty I meane either as Mahomets did to all kinde of voluptuous living or that other liberty that some of your friends and some others that call themselves reformed but in my opinion are very farre from it have beene guilty of the shaking off the yoake of civill obedience to the Magistrate set over them by God it is then lawfull to coerce such innovators if the prudence of the State shall thinke fit But difference in opinion though it be in a Kingdome never so peaceably possest of the Catholique Religion if it tend not to any of these dangers nor be convincible of those impieties and designes will by no reason or consequence be involved in that number Section 18 This you seem to be content with when you adde that this severity must not be extended to all that any where teach or professe erroneous doctrines but upon better consideration of your following words 't is cleare that your restraint or exception lookes another way viz. that against those that are not the first invaders but another generation succeeding them whose errour is contracted by the vice of education c. the Church doth not execute the severity of the lawes In which words though we of this and all other Protestant Kingdomes at this day have so farre our parts as that if it were never so much in your power you ought upon these grounds not to hurt us because we are the progeny and not the first invaders yet seeing all the restraint is for the execution onely of the severity of the lawes and those lawes are supposed by you to be in force against Heretiques and so against us whom you call by that name we have great reason to thinke there is little kindnesse in this present restraint of yours Section 19 For to the utmost of my understanding of your words it remaines still free to you after this concession to be as severe to any as your power will enable you And if by us at any time any claime of favour should be put into your Consistory your answer probably would be by this dilemma either you are invaders and seeing beginnings are alwaies weakest all that are not able to resist or defend themselves shall goe for invaders and then you have no title to mercy by this tenure or else you are a numerous off-spring and progeny of them and so possibly able to resist and then you shall have mercy If we stand on these tearmes with you and your order for restraint of severity hold no longer then our strength to resist you then we shall scarce acknowledge the obligation but thinke our enemies on the other extreame as kind as you for both of you are good at being mercifull when you are on the weaker party but both very tyrannicall when you begin to be strong Section 20 If you were so constant to your articles of restraint as that all the prosperities of warre advantages of place and auxiliaries could not tempt you to a massacre of any save onely some one single corrupter and invader or two in an age I might then have reason to thinke I might have mistaken your meaning but certainly you have beene as cruell on the cubs as ever you were on the old foxes and made as little scruple to put many thousands to death in one night whom you could not thinke to be all leaders in factions or invaders as the stories of France will testifie and the very words of the bull of Vrban the eighth to encourage the King of France to root out the quadrupedes in Galliâ stabulantes c. as any one John Husse alone by himselfe at another time And that you will have this latitude to let loose your restraint again when time serves it may seeme probable by what you adde of Austria Stiria and Carinthia whose priviledges it seemes lasted no longer then you thought fit For assoone as you thought it seasonable they were presently pronounced seditious and conspiratours and so put to the sword and for France and Poland I wish the names of Massacres had never beene heard in either of them or at least that the Pictures of them with words of papall approbation were not to be seen at Rome to testifie what is the cause of your present kindnesse viz. the difficulty of the worke that the Protestants there at this time are not molested Section 21 As for your recrimination against Protestants seeing it is very universall suffer Catholiques in no place and very sharpe that they persecute Catholiques wheresoever they are stronger after a very violent mercylesse desperate manner slay imprison robbe banish defame c. I must beseech you either to prove it against this your Country or else to make it reparations and remember when time serves that when Protestants are thought to persecute you then presently 't is a proceeding much worse and more unreasonable then the Turkish Section 22 As for the truth of your suggestion certainly the number and strength of Protestants hath for many yeares surmounted that of Papists in this Kingdome and yet I shall be confident you will be posed to produce the example of any one since Queene Maries daies that in this Kingdome was put to death meerly for religion without being guilty of something else which by the knowne lawes of the Realme is lyable to the punishment of treason And for the other penall lawes in this Kingdome which are not Capitall but pecuniary mulcts c. I shall say that 't is somewhat hard that we must be thought worthy of all those bitter invectives which you yet farther adde because I conceive there was never any Kingdome that own'd any religion but there was some difference made betwixt that and all other in respect of temporall priviledges and favours and immunities and any such difference reaches neare as high and goes as deepe as pecuniary mulcts And beside it is not irrationall to say that the inflicting such mulcts may very probably tend to the quiet and so to the advantage rather then to the oppression of such sufferers it being not without example that the suspicions of the people and jealousies that the established religion shall be discountenanced having no deeper ground then an imagination that the Prince may have inclined to give toleration to the other party or but immunity from these punishments hath brought such odium upon the present government and sharpenesse on those thus thought to be favour'd that in comparison with these ill accidents a few pecuniary mulcts might passe for a priviledge as the letting of bloud is to be esteem'd by those who are entring into a plurisie for want of it Section 23 If upon these considerations such mulcts as these may not be conceived supportable I must confesse 't is an hard lot to be placed in a throne betwixt two contrary pretenders and as
liable to deceit not enclosing him in any maze circle or semicircle not enforcing him into endlesse and wearisome regresses neither producing evidence nor destroying liberty but by these motives fortified with the divine veracity leading him assuredly to the Church and by the Church to the entire and determinate Canon of holy Scripture and so at length by both these joyned together to the full discovery and distinct knowledge of the doctrines of our faith after the manner following Section 13 These motives or ostensions being once considered we are forthwith to observe to what body of Christian professours they belong and in what line of succession of Ecclesiasticall Magistrates they descend unto us and in the passages of antiquity diligently to note which ship it is which in the Christian fleet was counted the Praetorian or Admirall with which all the rest were to joyne company and by the separation from which we are to judge which vessels be fugitive or pyraticall and which not which assembly of Christians legitimate and approved and by this association to be distinguished from the broken and dispersed troopes of Anti-Catholiques and by the same the army of the living God in the Church militant discerned from the stragling companies of divided and disagreeing Sectaries how numerous soever they may seeme when summed up all into one inconsistent body or confused rout This way and method we hold which if it doe not satisfie any let them set us downe a better and not leave us without any but let them take heed that while with the Enquirer we receive and admit the fallibility of the Church of Rome or of any other determinate Church and of one denomination we fall not with Master Chillingworth to the fallibility of the Christian faith and so presently to Infidelity It is easie to impugne the Organon of faith or Doctrinall principles but not easie to compose it easie to pull downe but not to build The Enquirers judgement uttered to me was that Baron when he writ against us was lusty and strong but when he spake any thing for himselfe he was weake and languishing and I believe this is the Enquirers owne case and that he was able to say more against an infallibility then for it In the one he hath shewed his strength in the other not Section 14 Now a word or two about lawes and I have done In which point I observe it as an uncontroverted doctrine that unjust lawes properply speaking are not lawes first because Lex is the dictamen rectae rationis practicae in eo qui potestatem habet but an unjust law is neither dictamen rectae rationis practicae nor potestatem habentis for no man is prescribed to doe wrong by reason nor hath God the chiefe Legislatour given power to make them Durandus concurres in terminis in Opusculo de legibus saying Injusta leges magis sunt violentiae quam leges nam secundum quod dicit Augustinus l. de libero arbitrio Lex esse non videtur quae justa non fuerit Et tales non obligant quantum ad Deum So Durandus To him Suarius subscribeth l. 3. de legib c. 19. n. 11. Lex injusta non est lex praesertim quando ex parte materiae est injusta quia rem iniquam praecipit tum enim ad acceptandum eam non obligat verum etiam neque si sit acceptata And presently after giving a reason hereof he addeth Quia excedit potestatem legislatoris Secondly so much veneration is due to lawes though never so unjust that they are neverthelesse in conscience to be obeyed unlesse they should be publiquely and knownely found contrary to a greater authority then that was by which they were enacted that is to say to the law of God or Nature Therefore they are not to be judged or censured by any private man Thirdly being discovered to be unjust they derogate nothing at all from the authority of the rest no more then the unjust lawes of some Emperours did from the body of the law Imperiall For though all of them were made by the same Authors yet not by the same authority because for the making of one sort there was good authority derived from God but for the making of the other there was none at all but such as could not make it Fourthly in case of such lawes no man is to take armes or make resistance but contrariwise to suffer with humble patience remitting the righting of his cause onely to God per quem Reges regnant legum conditores justa decernunt And thus Sir I rest your humble servant Section 15 The holy Scripture hath a threefold influence into faith 1. Dispositive as one of the motives or inducements 2. Negative as a property sine qua non 3. Positive as a foundation or principle The 1. as an ancient and godly booke The 2. as a rule without concordance to which faith could not be acknowledged for every doctrine must be consonant to its rule whether that rule be true or false certaine or uncertaine The 3. as a setled principle and a booke knowne to be Canonicall TO all this I shall answer as briefly as I can First to the 1 Sect. That for the matter of fact which concernes this treatise I have already averred those truths that will not permit any reasonable man to believe that this was so indeed a first draught c. for it was confest by him Chap. 1. to be a second draught Secondly it was not sent out onely to explore c. for it was saith he delivered but to two adversaries and to one of them as I said before it was delivered as unanswerable Thirdly if there were any such designe of exploring and mending c. I must conceive that that work is now done for when it was sent home to me againe with these notes many places which I had charged were altered or taken away and for additions sure such were the marginall notes and this appendage Fourthly For the license I can say nothing but that I conceive it might as easily be gotten as to what you have already made publique if you had a minde to it nor indeed force you to acknowledge or vouch any line of this booke but onely tell you that those words in your first Chapter of complaint That there was no notice given of license for it be published and have the advantage to be dispersed abroad in many copies and that for want of the Printers helpe it shall lie concealed and in much restraint yea and be in danger to perish seemed to me to signifie your willingnesse then to make it publique and if you have since retracted that designe I hope so weake an answer as some of your friends boast this to be did not discourage you I shall rather thinke it was modesty or else designe that you chose rather to have disclaimed then commended your owne and thought it would appear more glorious for you to have it extorted
for which that punishment was inflicted to which purpose the Chancellour of Paris will advise you or when the condition of her being received againe is such as cannot with any honesty be entertained be it the undertaking any Treasonable act against the King whose Admirall he is which denominates that Praetorian and who is supreame Master of the whole flâ—et or be it but swearing any thing to be true which is false or subscribing to the belief or practice of what we believe neither true nor practicable And that this is the state of our Church in its separation from yours I shall undertake to make good whensoever you will yeild the point of Infallibility or exchange it for the question of Schisme You see I am not much edified by your way and because you are not so importunate that I should but are modestly content that if I am not satisfied with it I should set you downe a better I shall humbly crave leave to doe it in very few words The farre better way more Christian because more humble and more charitable and beyond all probably the most peacefull too Is to make the Scripture as 't is interpreted by the antient Fathers the ground of our belief for all the substantiall i. e. plaine parts of Faith to define as few of this nature as the Primitive Christians may be discerned to have done to command and require obedience and assent to these from all our Inferiours under our authority and to proceed to Ecclesiasticall admonitions in case of errour to censures in case of contumacy but to blood never purely for Religion nor too often for Religion in ordine ad temporalia To tolerate with meeknesse those that are contrary minded in all things that are not either of the number of these few very few necessariò credenda or that have not a necessary connexion and immediate influence on practice and good life This as it is farre from either pretending to infallibility or letting loose the reines to licentiousnesse so is it the happiest most lasting durable temper of a Church most agreeable to all those ends that Christ hath made most estimable to us in his Gospel and so will be farre from that feare of yours of betraying us to a deserting of the Christian faith or falling to Infidelity universall peace and charity and humility being above all things most contrary to that And so you see 't is not so unpracticable a difficulty to compose an Organon of Faith so farre as to preserve it among Christians And for the planting it among Infidels that is not hujus considerationis nor doe I much believe I shall have much reason to differ from any learned Romanist on that Subject on condition he would agree with me in this As for your judgement upon his Lordship that he was able to say more against an infallibility then for it and that in the one he hath shewed his strength in the other not I easily believe and must thinke my selfe bound to confesse because I have seen a Booke of his against Infallibility but never any for it If this must be thought a fault in him I must be content to lie under your severest censure for the same crime also and sic habes confitentes reos patiently expecting what you will pronounce against us Sect. 14. You are resolved it seemes to have a word or two about Lawes upon what temptation or provocation from the precedent discourses at least from the maine businesse in hand I cannot readily satisfie my Reader The most I can guesse is that in our meeting we fell into some discourse and difference about the nature of unjust Lawes whether they might be said to be Lawes or no. And perchance your charity led you now out of your rode to informe me in this matter if 't were onely so I must acknowledge it an obligation and shall thanke you for that though I chance to dissent from you And that matter I perceive will be soone stated Thus That Lawes if considered in respect of the matter of them they be found to command me to doe ought which by any superiour law 't is unlawfull for me to doe they are then unjust Lawes be the Legislatour never so lawfully my Magistrate and in this case 't is true that God hath not given him power to make them meaning thereby such a power that he may make them without being unjust but yet another power he hath given him to wit such an one as that if he exercise it thus against God the Doners will yet it shall not be lawfull for any man or society of men on earth to call him to account and punish him to resist violently or reduce him in ordinem Onely God that hath given him potestatem in genere which is libera ad utrosque actus power to make good or evill lawes but withall restrained by a command from the law of nature and God and limited by that law onely to the lawfull exercise of it or making the good lawes is to receive an account of the Talent given him to trade with as his Steward and to enquire whetâ—er he hath used it well or no. Thus much unlesse I am mistaken your discourse gives me reason to thinke granted by you And from thence I must conclude that any such abuse of power in the Law-giver though it be in him aberration from the rule in respect of God yet still is an act that hath some effect on the man which is borne or lives under that law though not to oblige him to doe what is commanded him yet to oblige him to non-resistance and suffering patiently if the Law-giver be so wicked to tyrannize over him Which obligation to passive though not active Obedience is the result of a Law if not properly so called in your notion of it yet very lawfully and intelligibly so called as I have interpreted it And for the propriety or impropriety of the word I shall not much contend with you so the substance be agreed on and yet 't were easie enough to repay you with the quotations of Schoole-men and Casuists which make no scruple to use the word in my sence and to answer the places you have produced and shew that 't was onely in that sence which we yeild that they did deny it But enough of this For your 15 Section What it signifies or whether it would I cannot I confesse divine 't was I conceive in you an excessive act of liberality that you thought might be for my turne and though I know not how at this time I shall reap profit by it yet I cannot but accept your good intentions And so being extreamly weary of a very thanklesse taske I bid you heartily farewell FINIS 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Tom. 2. pa. 272. Dial. cum Tryph. pag. 307. lib. 5. cap. 33. Niceph. Tom. 1. pag. 555. Tom. 2. p. 206. De Regno Coesarius Synesius Sophoc * Licet concilium generale representet totam ecclesiam