A JOURNEY INTO THE COUNTRY BEING A DIALOGUE Between an English PROTESTANT Physitian AND AN English PAPIST WHEREIN The proper State of the Popish Controversy is discoursed With Reference only to the Government of ENGLAND in Church and State In some Answer to Peter Walsh and pursuant to the Directions of a Person of Honor. Papa stupor Mundi non Deus non Homo sed utrumque Gloss in proem Clem. Moscan de Rom. Pont. l. 1. c. 11. LONDON Printed for Henry Brome at the Gun at the West-end of St. Pauls M DC LXXV THE PUBLISHER TO THE READER THIS ensuing Discourse seems to be wrote about the time when by Proclamation Papists were not to reside within ten Miles of London and 't is not yet out of Season nor will be till our Controversies with the Papists be throughly and truly stated after which it cannot be long ere they be ended I see not how English men have to do with the Romish Church or State their Laws Doctrines or Discipline therefore while they have been exercising us with Disputes about those things they had two Ends viz. Either to lead us into some Precipice or to Lap-wing us from the proper tendency of our Enquiries which in truth is our home Concerns and so a Controversy only between English Papists and English Catholicks called Protestants for Distinction with reference to their Prince who governeth by Laws diverse from all the Nations of the World and so is not to be argu'd out of his Right by any Parallel from other Kingdoms But as a Person of Honour hath lately begun so this Author has set forward the proper Contest still meaning between English Papists and English Protestants the latter of whom affirm as follows 1. That the King of England is Emperour and sole Monarch of England and established by a Law diverse from all other Nations 2. That the Church of England has all the Rights of a Patriarchal See from which lies no Appeal to any other Patriarch 3. That all Church Authorities and Jurisdictions with reference to this life and the ends of Government are rightfully derived from the King of England being naturally in him as a mixt Person and Custos utriusque tabulae according to Rom. 13. 4. That he is a Traytor that denyes this or affirms any forreign Prince Prelate or Potentate to have any Jurisdiction in England c. or diminishes the Kings Legal Style 5. There was naturally no difference between Church and State as to Jurisdictions until Christian Monarchs divided Jurisdictions and delegated Civil and Ecclesiastical Persons to take Conusance and judge of Causes separate and those Jurisdictions are called Civil and Ecclesiastical in respect of the Delegates only and not in respect of the Causes whereof they take Conusance and Judge 6. The King hath power naturally within his Dominions by such his delegates respectively to declare what are Articles of Faith according to Scripture and not otherwise and to make and interpret Laws for the Government of Church and State to appoint Forms of Worship and Discipline not against the word of God to add to such Laws Sanctions to punish Offenders against such Laws 7. These Rights and Powers of the King are Inherent in him as Essential Flowers of his Crown as antient as the Crown it self in which his Subjects are so interessed with reference to their Propriety in his personal Government by Original Constitutions as the King cannot by any rightfâ—l Act he can do grant them away to any Forreign Power Person or Potentate or to others but by way of delegation as to the declarative and executive Part. 8. What ever of these Rights and Powers any King of England has at any time allowed to the Pope has been so allowed against the Fundamental Law of the Land and so was utterly void and not obliging to any Successors Kings of England c. 9. That all Papists denying the Jurisdiction of the Pope here both in Civil and Ecclesiastical matters yet holding Communion with the Church of Rome in matters of worship against our established Laws are grievous Offenders 10. That passive Obedience is no Obedience In as much as true Obedience must be spontaneous intire active and with respect to the Law of Nature antecedent to the Kings Command which injoyns intire Obedience to the Kings lawful Command for the Lords sake not barely for the Command sake 11. That the King cannot dispense with or free the Subject from such natural Obedience but only from the penalty added by and annexed to his Command 12. That the King cannot tolerate here the Exercise of the Popish Worship the same being superstitious and idolatrous and against the Established Laws 13. That no English man whatsoever how far so ever they pretend to differ from or disown the Pope can give reasonable security for the Preservation of the Peace of the Church or State by them unless they swear due Allegiance to the King and by Oath declare his Supremacy in the Church and by that Oath renounce all the Popes Authority whatsoever over them and his Power to dispense with that Oath and that they will be obedient to all the Kings Laws 14. That an English man in Priests Orders from the Church of Rome â—xcommunicated or censur'd by thaâ— Church and yet holding Communion with that Church iâ— not to be trusted here although he takes the Oaths above mentioned In as much as he is of no Church being wilfully divided from ours and by Censure divided from the other and so disobedient to all Governors a lawless and perjured Person and so in a present State of Damnation nor is any Romish Priest to be trusted here though he takes the said Oaths in as much as he hath taken a former Oath to the contrary not renounced 15. That since no English understanding Papist doth absent or at any time hath absented from our Communion and Worship out of pure Judgment and Reason But purely by reason of the old inhibition of the Pope in Q. Elizabeth's time for before that they joyn'd with us and were called Church Papists and at the same time they in opposition to our Kings Laws do so firmly yield to that Inhibition and disobey several other Commands of the Pope even in some matters of Faith It 's refer'd to the wisdom of the King with the advice of his said Delegates whether such co 〈…〉 ious Offenders be with any safety to be tolerated or even conâ—iv'd at here 16. That the Church and Court of Rome are so incorporated together that if Communion with that Church be admitted or tolerated here it must necessarily be introductory of that Courts Vsurpation 17. That there are now great differences of opinion among the English Papists themselves with reference to the Pope And if they were all of the mind with the most moderate Pretenders yet what Security can be given that they will alwayes be so or that they shall be succeeded by others of the same Judgment or is it
within you viz. your own reason so informed which was placed there as was said to distinguish you from a Brute that can go stand do c. as he is taught or at least by a Church in whose Conduct you may have rational satisfaction in all the points of its profession So then if your Pope your Councils your Church do err as your true English Roman-Catholicks say they do in Doctrinals in matters of Faith How can you be assur'd that your Runigate Priests do not err in the matters they inculcate into your easy heads and in that unintelligible Faith which is against sence and reason and their own Judgments And how can you then be assured they err not in worship which is of less weight Pap. Constant Usage and Approbation are sufficient grounds for me in that However you may see that we Roman Catholicks of this perswasion submit our selves to the Laws of the Land are willing to give security for not disturbing the peâ—ce and of our Allegiance to the King and so in Justice are intitled to the Kings protection and deserve not to be lyable to the penal Laws intended purely against the Papists of the Court of Rome Phy. Very well we are now come to the end of the Journey whence we began and so in our Discourse viz. to the Distinction of Church of Rome and Court of Rome Papists and I am still of opinion that neither ought to be suffered here For were it possible to believe that all the English Romish Catholicks were such Mungrel Papists as you pretend to be that is to obey the Pope in part and our King in part as has been said as is plain they are not as appears by the opposition of most of them to the formulary or remonstrance mentioned by Peter Walsh yet even they are not to be trusted here with safety to the King For what security can there be given that the Roman Catholick who is false to the Pope should be faithful to the King that one can serve two Masters pretending to Equality with equal faithfulness that one who is excommunicated by his own Church should keep faith with another Church that one who is notoriously perjured should be believed That one who is of the Church of Rome should be bound by that Oath which his Church condemns and frequently dispenses with and he owns that one who is so easie as to believe the ridiculous Fables of Old Rome may not as easily be drawn over to the rebellious faults of the New Rome and Peter Walsh's assurance for his party is just as valuable as his partner Cressy's for the Jesuits and what Credit can be given to one who brake his Oath to this Church and then did as much to the other and is now possessed with or by the Devil being delivered over to Satan Besides 't is obvious how dangerous it is to indulge that sort of people by the stir they have lately made in publick declaimings against the Religion of this Kingdom and the disturbance of this Churches peace which is an ill requital for the Kings gracious Clemency and has awakened those laws which otherwise might have slept still And how can that Papist be believed to be true and faithful to that King whom he takes to be an Heretick and will infallibly be damned How can a Popish Fanatick who believes all the Enthusiasmes allowed in the Romish Church viz. the Revelations of Mother Juliana the Preface to Sancta Sophia who thirsts after the lights which do expell all Images of Creatures and calm all manner of passions to the end that the Soul being in vacuity may be more capable of entertaining God in the pure fund of the Spirit who is in possession of the Deiform fund of the Soul which is the simple Essence of the Soul stamped with Divine Impress from whence ariseth a superessential life being a way of knowing without thoughts of seeing in darkness of understanding without reasonâ— of unknowing God by perceiving of being melted and brought to nothing first and then being lost and swallowed up in God by which means all created being is put off and that which is only Divine put on being changed into God as Iron heated into the nature of fire which is attained to by seeking God in the Obscurity of Faith with a more profound introversion of the Spirit which is the State of Nothingness or of Totality or the unica of Nothing with Nothing by which the Soul comes to a feeling of her not being and by consequence of the not being of Creatures I say how can such a one who must first be mad before he can know he is in his wits expect any better Entertainment in England then the three late York-shire Quakers had at Rome viz. as being dismissed as Mad-men They being in France shaved to cure that Frenzy which oft by shaving is occasioned and such as this are some of your Romish Church Catholicks nay even the Superiors as they have testified to the World in Print and why may not such a Romish Church Quaker who attains knowledge after a Mystical way by the Impulses of the Spirit only extravagate soon into civil affairs as well as Father White who never read Mathematicks as he sayes and without the Help of Humane Learning attain to the perfect knowledge of the Quadrature of the Circle And how are these Formulary men to be believed while they can to the Pope excuse their remonstrance of Allegiance to their King by saying that they only acknowledge but do not swear it that they do not Condemn the opinion contrary to the Oath nor do they declare that the Pope cannot dispense with the Oath or any part of it Let any one Judge now comparing their remonstrance to the King and their Declaration to the Pope what manner of Allegiance and Obedience the King may expect from them especially it being declared by the Council of Toledo in the time of Innocent the sixth That laws as to Ecclesiastical persons bind not ad culpam but ad poenam And by Aquinas Monks are only bound to profess not to keep the rules of St. Benedict just so are our True English Roman Catholicks bound to profess and owe as you call it Allegiance but how or when to keep or pay it who can he assured thereof And their stories tell us That the Devil appeared to Fryar Ruffin in form of Christ And what security is there by that Oath taken by them while the same persons taking that Oath can confidently assure the Pope That they do not condemn the opinion contrary to that Oath nor do they declare that the Pope cannot dispense with that Oath or any part of it which is as much as to say and believe that the Pope can dispense therewith which they may more easily believe then that the Pope can dispense with St. Pauls Epistles with the New Testament with the Old and New Testament with the whole law of God and to compleat the Popes
power He can in a manner do all things that God can do which several Tenets are holden by true Roman Catholicks and others have affirmed that the Pope is above Law against Law without Law and can do all things and that in all Oaths the Popes Power is excepted And lastly if some of your Superiours should be true to their word or Oath such as it is and so commenced upon and explained as before what Assurance can be given That such Mushrom Papists as you shall be alwaies guided by them and not at sometime or other procreate or transmute into Hornets and Wasps Garnets or Venners or that under colour or pretence of meek Nothings who live by the Effects of supernatural Inactions of God Rapts and Extasies other Baronian wretches may not intrude using the same vizor for a while and when occasion and opportunity shall serve then cry aloud as some have done Our Lord God the Pope which hast all power in heaven and earth Then in earnest would be advanced the most illustrious name of British and Irish Catholicks that name of names and most glorious of Titles as indeed it is but venerated by that great Franciscan with that nick name Roman and especially Walshes Letter c. p. 5. against all which I hope Soveraign Notice and Caution will arm it self and that before it be too late for as Plantus Qui cavet ne decipiatur vix cavet cum etiam cavet quando enim cavisse ratuâ— est sape is Cautor captus est Pap. You talk of Mad-men I think you will show your self such I 'me glad I am near my journeys end I shall part with you here at Bow-bridge and go the back way I like not your company now and shall not trust my self with you in the City least you discover me Phy. Truly Sir I have made as much discovery of you as I desire and I discover besides your Religious impertinencies your Obedience to the Kings commands to be just as much as that of Mr. Ogilbies wheel viz. mearly to measure so much of the road as the driver pleases and no more I wish you again better informed and so farewell But Sir pray stop but a little while and I 'le tell you a significant piece of Religion of a Souldier of the Bishop of Rome Old Rome older then your Bishop of old Rome Caesar who seeing this Souldier fighting with most accurate valour beset with many Foes yet forced his way through them all and escaped through great mires waters and great difficulties with only the loss of his shield ran to the Souldier to imbrace him and to incourage and reward his incomparable prowess the true hearted Souldier out of Sence to his Duty and Obedience which by the Law written in his heart he owed to his Prince was so far from being transported with the glory of his Action or the value set thereon by Casar's Approbation that with Tears in his eyes he asked pardon of him that he had left his Target behind him And Sir before we part I have another thing come in my head and that is I have a desire to send you a memorable Record which I have in my Study it is the Opinion of the Judges Nobility and Clergy of England concerning the Kings Supreme Ecclesiastical Power with reference both to Papists and Puritans pray how may I direct it to you Pap. Sir I shall give it the perusal you may inclose it in a Paper directed to Mr. Justin Hide and leave it at the Book-sellers at Graies-Inn Gate Phy. I shall Sir and once more Farewel THE RECORD OF 2o. Febr. 2. JACOBI MEmorandum that by Command from the King all the Justices of England with diverse of the Nobility viz. the Lord Ellesmere Lord Chancellour the Earl of Dorset Lord Treasurer Viscount Cranborn Principal 2 Croke 37. Moore 755. Secretary the Earl of Nottingham Lord Admiral the Earls of Northumberland Worcester Devon and Northampton the Lord Zouch Burleigh and Knowles the Chancellour of the Dutchy the Arch-bishop of Canterbury the Bishop of London Popham chief Justice Bruce Master of the Rolls Anderson Gawdy Walmsley Femier Kingsmith Warberton Savel Daniel Yelverton and Snigg were assembled in the Star-Chamber where the Lord Chancellour after a long speech made by him concerning Justices of Peace and his Exhortation to the Justices of Assise and a Dâ—â—ouse concerning Papists and Puritans declaring how they both vvere Disturbers of the State and that the King intending to suppress them and to have the Laws put in Execution against them demanded of the Justices their Resolutions in three things First vvhether the Deprivation of Puritan Ministers by the high Commissioners for refusing to conform themselves to the Ceremonies appointed by the last Canons vvas lawful Whereto all the Justices answered That they had conferred thereof before and held it to be lawful because the King hath the Supreme Ecclesiastical Power vvhich he hath delegated to the Commissioners vvhereby they had the power of Deprivation by the Common Law of the Realm And the Statute of 1. Eliz. which appoints Commissioners to be made by the Queen doth not confer any new Power but explain and declare the ancient Power And therefore they held it clear That the King without Parliament might make Orders and Constitutions for the Government of the Clergy and might deprive them if they obeyed not And so the Commissioners might deprive them but they could not make any Constitutions vvithout the King and the divulging of such Ordinances by Proclamation is a most gratious Admonition and for as much as they have refused to obey they were lawfully deprived by the Commissioners ex Officio without Libel and â—re tenus convocati Secondly Whether a Prohibition be grantable against the Commissioners upon the Statute 2 H. 5. if they do not deliver a Copy of the Libel to the Party Whereto they all answered That the Statute is intended where the Ecclesiastical Judge proceeds ex Officio ore tenus Thirdly Whether it were an offence punishable and what punishment they deserved who framed Petitions and collected a Multitude of hands thereto to prefer to the King in a publick Cause as the Puritans had done vvith an Intimation to the King That if he denyed their Suit many thousands of his Subjects would be discontented Whereto all the Justices answered That it vvas an Offence finable at Discretion and very near to Treason and Felony in the Punishment for they tended to the raising of Sedition Rebellion and Discontent among the people To which resolution all the Lords agreed And then many of the Lords declared that some of the Puritans had raised a false rumour of the King how he intended to grant a Toleration to Papists which Offence the Justices conceived to be heinously finable by the rules of the common-Common-Law either in the Kings Bench or by the King and his Council or now since the Statute of 3 H. 7. in the Star Chamber And the Lords severally declared how the King vvas discontented vvith the said false Rumour and had made but the day before a protestation unto them that he never intended it And that he vvould spend the last drop of blooâ— in his Body before he vvould do it And prayed that before any of his Issue should maintain any other Religion then vvhâ— he truly professed and maintained that God vvould take them oâ— of the World FINIS
say against Forreigners let them use what Religion their Superiours there injoyn them But against English men who in opposition to the Religion of State distinct from that of Faith which is ordered by the proper Legislative Power such as your Church of Rome Papist is for ought I can yet see If your Father Paul was such I think him either a fool or a Knave for if St. Peters Successor did behave himself well in that Council your Paul was a Knave to traduce him if contrary he was a fool to leave a well ordered Church to follow the Dictates of such a faulty Guide yet were he a Subject of Rome he was much too blame so openly to reproach his Prince and yet was religious to dye a steady Cathâ—lick of that Church while he was obliged to hear the Pharisee sitting in St. Peters Chair Pap. Well Sir say what you will I say I am a true Roman Catholick as to the other World and a true English man as to this Phy. Sir you offered a Distinction lately with a witness viz. Father Paul and now comes a Distinction with Paulo majore and as to this I say it 's a Distinction well becoming a Romish-Church-Catholick but not a true English man for it looks two waies for if Chequer Papist party per pale half true Papist half true English will not do then it is to be interpreted True English man for life and after true Roman Catholick and so it has something of Policy but more of Romish Guile In as much as it serves to secure Protection and Preservation here during life and after in the other world True Roman Catholick goes for it to St. Peter God a mercy good Distinguisher he dares as well be hang'd as tell the Pope this how he cheats the Pope all his life and cheats the King at his death this Distinction dares not appear at Rome no more then peaceable Mr. Walsh Mr. White or Mr. Serjeant who non-conform from the Church of Rome more then our Independent from the Church of England Pap. But Sir if the Distinguisher as you call him explains himself and sayes he owes Allegiance to the King actively as to Matters of State and passively as to Matters of Church and so differs from your Church in pure Judgment only and no more then Presbyterian or Independents there who are good Subjects nevertheless owe Allegiance and claim protection c. what say you then c Phy. First I say that Church and State were all one before Christian Emperours divided them and causes were all derived from the same Fountain the King but as some were put into the hands of Ecclesiasticks and were called Ecclesiastical or Spiritual so others delegated to Civil Magistrates were called Civil thence arose the two Jurisdictions which are naturally one as in our King and by Delegation only made two But I further say if you be in earnest it is the first time I ever heard Papists to fight with Presbyterian weapons and I mean by earnest real for sad Experience has shew'd that it is not the first time by thousands that the Militants of the Romish Church have used the unhallowed Artillery of the spurious English Natives to fight withal against us Yet not in earnest or real as such but in Masquerade and if your Distinguisher be so half witted to tender this peace-meal Obedience I say further It 's the proper Result of Romish Ignorance for such Notional Obedience is indeed none True Obedience ought to be intire and is due to the lawful Magistrates Commands by the Law of Nature antecedent to any Command by the Magistrate for the Lords sake who injoyns to obey not barely for the Commands-sake which injoyns to do And there is more Religion in such Obedience then in all your Worship But Sir I would willingly be resolv'd whether the Romish Church Catholick dissent from us in Church matters in pure Judgment or by reason of some Command from the Pope next whether there be not a great difference between Protestant and Popish Dissenters Inasmuch as the former whatever he thinks concerning the power of his Prince in Church matters and perhaps would have him mend his Discipline according to mistaken Rule of Scripture yet he takes it not from our Prince and lodges it in a forraign Prince or Prelate which last makes it Treason Let this be answered and I 'le promise you not to take such an uncouth Travail as at present gives occasion of our Discourse Pap. Pray Sir is there any harm if I prefer the Pope to the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury Phy. None at all as the former is a Temporal Prince and the latter but a Subject nay more the Arch-Bishop of Rome shall have my Vote to take Precedency of the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury at a general Council when it happens but not in England unless by Curtesy And if you prefer the Pope before the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury as to any power of Spiritual Jurisdiction in our Kings Dominions you are unmannerly to the Arch-Bishop who is Apostolick and Patriarch here as Pope Vrban the second allowed and you are a Traytor to the King by and under whose undoubted inherent Right and Authority the Arch-bishop is Primate in this Patriarchate Pap. But do you think in your Conscience that the Pope has no Right to Spiritual Jurisdiction in England Phy. Aye I do in my Conscience verily believe that the Pope has no Right to any Jurisdiction whatsoever in our Kings Dominions Pap. Pray what Grounds have you for it Phy. The Grounds I have for it is from the certain Testimony of Records continued in Succession for many hundred years which are to be seen in the Tower and some of them are transcribed by the Lord Coke and cited in the Report of a Law Case called Cawdries Case and in Mr. Prins Collections whereby it plainly appears that in all ages wherein the Pope laid claim to Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction in England and offered to put the same in Execution it was alwaies opposed by Parliaments and Councils as derogatory to the just Rights of this Crown Pap. But how are you certain of the truth of these Testimonies Phy. Sir as to the matter of Certainty I shall not use the notions so much contended about viz. Moral Certainty or sufficient Certainty so much as the Nature of the thing is capable of there being three absolute Certainties by which we come to the knowledg of things 1. A sensible Certainty 2. A Mathematical Certainty 3. An Historical Certainty and all these are in their kinds respectively absolute The Certainty of Sence makes me absolutely Certain of what I see hear c. The Certainty of Demonstration makes me absolutely Certain that one and one makes two and three and three makes six The Certainty of History continued uninterrupted and undoubted and by unanimous Consent of succession of Ages and Historians makes me absolutely certain that there were such Kings of England as Kenulphus King Edwin Edw. the