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A45823 A contention for truth: or, an impartial account, of two several disputations The one being on Munday, the 12th. of Feb. And the other on Munday, the 26. of the same month, in the year 1671. Between Mr. Danson of the one party, and Mr. Ives on the other, upon this question (viz) whether the doctrine of some true believers, falling away totally and finally from grace, be true or no? Published to prevent mistakes, and false reports, concerning the said conferences. By a lover of truth and peace. Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674. 1672 (1672) Wing I1095A; ESTC R222598 83,987 220

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promise was made to the Israel of God but your argument was this that all the promises made to the Israel of God are made to all True believers and you must assume the Text under debate or say you cannot that the 32. Jer. is an absolute promise made to all True believers for the proposition hath two parts First That it is made to all True believers and Secondly that it is made absolutely without condition and now you are upon the first part to prove that this promise in the 32. Jer. is made to all True believers and instead of concluding this you conclude that which none denies that the promises are made to the Israel of God Mr. Danson Thus I proved it that that promise that is made to all the Israel of God is made to all True believers But that promise in the 32. Jer. is made to all the Israel of God Ergo. Mr. Ives I denyed the major of the former argument which I expect the proof of which is this you last repeated the proof whereof is still expected Mr. Danson You denyed the minor Mr. Ives No I did not As any one may see that looks back Mr. Danson I am to prove that the promises made to the Israel of God Jeremy 32. are made to all True believers Mr. Ives I Sir You are to prove that that which is predicated of the Israel of God is predicated of all True believers and conclude with Jer. 32. or you do nothing for the Question is whether this Text will prove what it is brought for and you are to prove by it or say you cannot and go to some other Argument or else conclude Ergo Jer. 32. speaks of all True believers Mr. Ives I appeal to Mr. Fowler when the case lies in difference about the sense of a Text of Scripture that he brings to prove what I denyed viz. That the promise of God is such that they cannot depart I distinguish of the promises of God with respect to the persons and with respect to the nature of the promises with respect to the persons I say that Jer. 32. is not a promise made to all True believers and with respect to the nature of the promises I say they are not absolute but conditional Now whether my distinction be true or false such as it is you have it and I appeal to you Now that as my answer consists of two parts so must his proof and whether or no must he not first prove that these promises were made to all True believers and in so doing must he not conclude Ergo These promises in Jer. 32. are made to all True believers Mr. Fowler He must He must Here Mr. Fowler interposes Mr. Fowler The promise that is made to the Israel of God is made to all True believers But the promise in Jer. 32. is so Ergo Mr. Ives I deny the major it doth not follow that if it be made to all the Israel of God it is made to all True believers Mr. Fowler The Israel of God comprehends all True believers Ergo That promise that is made to the Israel of God is made to all True believers Mr. Ives I deny the antecedent of the Enthymem Mr. Fowler Here is a Text. Mr. Ives I am not now to dispute with Mr. Fowler without you will please to take Mr. Danson's place and then prove if you can that the promise in Jer. 32. is made to all True believers Mr. Danson Mr. Fowler hath shown you clearly Mr. Ives Do you take the benefit of it then and improve it as well as you can Mr. Danson This is that which I am to prove that all the Israel of God are True believers Mr. Ives That is not the Question you are to prove that the promise made to the Israel of God Jer. 32. comprehends all True believers Mr. Danson I will prove it by a more direct Text in Heb. 8.10 For this is the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days saith the Lord. I will put my Laws into their minds and write them in their hearts and I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a People Mr. Ives Sir Put it into an Argument for you are to prove Jer. 32. where God promises they shall never depart is made to all True believers Now pray prove that by an Argument from any Text so you conclude Ergo this is the sense of Jer. 32. Mr. Danson I am to prove that all the Israel of God doth always comprehend all True believers Mr. Ives Sir You do nothing but run into a Ring and dispute circulerly pray prove that the promises in Jer. 33. are made to all True believers Mr. Danson In spiritual things Mr. Ives What in the 32d of Jeremiah then prove it Mr. Danson Here is one part of the promise out of those words quoted I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a People and also the other Clause and they shall teach no more every man his Brother c. the 31. of Jer. compare with Heb. 8. This proves that the Israel of God comprehends all True believers Mr. Ives I took Mr. Danson for a more ingenious man then to answer so I will acknowledge that there may be some promises made so universally as they may extend to all the World and possibly there are promises that maybe in one Chapter universal in another Chapter there may be promises more special and restrained Now Mr. Danson brings a Text in the 8th of Heb. which is a recital of the Covenant in the 31 of Jeremy to prove the promise in the 32d of Jeremy is made to all True believers Here Mr. Fowler Interposes Mr. Ives You dispute now Mr. Fowler pray let Mr. Danson alone I deny that the 8th of the Heb. refers to the 32d of Jeremy which is the Text under debate for the 8th of the Heb. refers to the 31 of Jeremy and therefore you cannot conclude from thence Ergo this is the sense of Jer. 32. But that we may not wast time I deny the 8th of Hebrews speaks of all True believers for here is Mr. Danson's Argument whatever is spoken or predicated of all the Israel of God is predicated of all True believers Mr. Danson I told you in spiritual things Mr. Ives All that you have to de is to prove that this is made to all True believers let the thing promised be what it will now you prove it because it is made to the Israel of God and my answer is that there may be some things made to the Israel of God that are not appropriated to all True believers Mr. Danson I say as to spiritual blessings Mr. Ives It is from Jer. 32. that the Argument advanced and the Question now is not about the natute of the promise but the subjects of it as I have told you Mr. Danson This Clause I will put my fear into their hearts that they shall