Death of the King For the Party is indicted upon one particular Overt Act but he is indicted for Treason in Conspiring the Death of the King and each of thâ— Witnesses being to prove that though they speak to several Acts they are good Witnesses according to the Law Mr. Baron Weston My Lords I am of the same Opinion with my Reverend Brethren who have spoke before me Mr. Justice Charlton My Lords I am of the same Opinion and I think truly it would be the easiest matter for a man to Commit Treason and escape without questioning if it should be otherwise But this is the first time that I have heard it hath been made a Question that to the same Treason there must be two Witnesses to every Overt Act. It hath been adjudged always according to the Law that to prove Treason there must be two Witnesses but to any Overt Act there needs but onâ— Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford By the uniform Opinion of all my Lords the Judges there is no colour to doubt the Law in that point which you desire to argue So that as to that point you must rest satisfied you are not to have Counsel to speak to it For the rest I have no Commission yet from my Lords to say any thing Lord Stafford Will your Lordships give me leave to say one thing to what I have heard I would answer if I might only to one Judge I think they call him Judge Atkins Lord High Steward Your Lordship may say what you please Lord Stafford My Lords I hear a strange Position I never heard the like before in my life and 't is what he said if I am in the wrong I beg your Lordships pardon and his too He told your Lordships the Reason why the Law should be so was because else a great many of those persons that have already been Executed must have been acknowledged unjustly cut off and put to Death that is an Argument I hope will not weigh with your Lordships or any body for 't is better that a Thousand persons that are Guilty should escape than that one Innocent person should die much more then that it should not be declared that such a Judgment was not well given Lord High Steward Look you my Lord where many Reasons are given 't is easie to make a Reply to one of the least among many that was one Reason given but the true Reason is this if the Law were otherwise there would be great safety in Conspiring the Death of the King Lord Stafford My Lords I say nothing further as to the rest but this stuck with me I am sorry to hear a Judge should say any such thing and though I am in such a weak and disturbed Condition I assure your Lordships my Blood rises at it Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chamber The Lords withdrew in their Order and the Committee of Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clarke Mr. Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they have ordered William Viscount Stafford to be brought again to the Bar in Westminster-Hall on Munday morning next at Ten of the Clock After which the House of Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock on Munday morning The Sixth Day Munday December 6. 1680. ABout the hour of Eleven in the morning the Lords being Adjourned into Westminster-Hall going thither in their former Order into the Court there Erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Committee of Commons were Seated as before The Court being Sate Proclamation for Silence was made and the Lieutenant Commanded to bring his Prisoner to the Bar which being done the Lord High Steward began Lord High Steward Read my Lord Stafford's Petition To the Right Honourable the Lords in Parliament Assembled The humble Petition of William Viscount of Stafford Humbly shewing unto your Lordships that he hath some things to offer unto your Lordships in order to clear himself which he hopeth to do Your Petitioner doth therefore with all humility most humbly beseech your Lordships to give him leave to offer some things unto your Lordships Consideration And your Petitioner shall ever pray c. Stafford Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford my Lords have been willing upon your Petition to come and hear what that is that your Lordship hath to offer And they would know whether it be matter of Fact or matter of Law For your Lordship must know that as to Witnesses the Process is closed Lord Stafford I do not pretend any more Witnesses my Lords Lord High Steward Then my Lord what is it that you would say Lord Stafford My Lords I did Yesterday receive an Order from your Lordships and upon that and some other things that I have to trouble your Lordships with I did petition for this favour which I humbly thank your Lordships for granting If I be impertinent I shall beg your Lordships pardon and I hope you will be pleased to consider my Weakness at all times especially in this condition I am now in but I hope by your Lordships favour to be in an happier one quickly For the matters of proof I shall offer not a tittle but my Lords this Order which I received does say That the Lords Assembled in Parliament have ordered that my Counsel shall not be heard touching the continuance of Impeachments from Parliament to Parliament but I hope my Lords you will please without Offence to let me offer to your Lordships my own Conceptions about it which I shall do as briefly as I can My Lords I do not conceive by this Order That your Lordships say it does or it does not continue You have given no Judgment as I know of in it when you have I shall acquiesce but I hope your Lordships will resolve that it does not And my Lords my reasons for it are two the first is because one of the Managers for the House of Commons as I take it Sir William Jones said these words and your Lordships may remember them That if there were no such President your Lordships would make a President whether you will or no that I must submit to your Lordships but then there is none yet The next thing is my Lords this whether an Impeachment be to be prosecuted in Parliament without an Indictment this my Lords I humbly hope your Lordships are resolved it ought not For I see not how truely my Lords it can be by the little reading which I have had in the Law I never found any man prosecuted in a Legal way but by an Indictment I may be mistaken and I beg your Lordships pardon for troubling you with my mistakes but I never read of any that were prosecuted upon an Impeachment so then the Legal usual word being Indictment
disturbance But we desire your Lordships to consider whether this practise of having things written down for the Clerk to read may not introduce a Custom which may in time grow inconvenient for future Example I see no great danger in the particular Instance before your Lordships now but it is dangerous in such Cases to do any thing that is new in this Court Lord High Steward All the matter is whether it be read by my Lord who cannot be heard or read by the Clerk Sir Thomas Lee. We only oppose it out of fear of making a President which may be of ill consequence Lord High Steward Read it my Lord and raise your voice for it concerns you to speak out Lord Stafford Reading out of his Paper My Lords when I offered Matter of Law to your Lordships on Saturday last I did in no wise admit the Matter of Fact to be true that was alledged against me and so I desire to be understood And I hope your Lordships will not lay the less weight upon the Testimony of my Witnesses because they are not sworn for the Law does not suffer them to be sworn which is no fault of mine nor ought not to turn to my Prejudice I must appeal to your Lordships Judgments in point of Fact how far the Kings Witnesses are to be believed against me considering the whole matter and my Counter-proof Next I submit to your Lordships Judgments this point That the Impeachment being founded upon the Common Law and the Statute of 25 th Edw. 3. and not upon the Statute of 13 th of this King two of the Witnesses Dugdale and Turbervill do only swear Treasonable words spoken by me and not my Overt Act for they swear only that I promised them Money and Rewards to kill the King Now I humbly pray your Lordships Judgment whether bare speaking of words be an Overt Act and Treason at the Common Law or upon that Statute and whether there be more than speaking of Words in a Consult or otherwise proved by Dugdale and Turbervill I appeal to you then the other Witness Oats is but a single Witness who speaks of the receiving of a Commission This is that I offer to your Lordships now for your Judgments and then I desire I may have your Opinion in other things Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship hath to say Lord Stafford For the present my Lords Lord High Steward You must say all you have to say now Lord Stafford Is it your Lordships pleasure to hear Counsel to nothing at all I did likwise alledge to your Lordships th' other day that People that swear for Money are not competent credible Witnesses how far that was proved or I may prove by my Counsel I submit to your Lordships Lord High Stewared Look you my Lord you have so far received already the pleasure of the House You have raised several Questions of Law whether every Overt Act require two Witnesses to prove it You have had the Opinion of the Judges and there is no more to be said in it As to that whether Impeachments continue from Parliament to Parliament and the other thing whether Proceedings may be upon an Impeachment without an Indictment these are matters of the Course and Constitutions of Parliaments my Lords will consider of them by themselves and will permit no Counsel to argue them For the other Point That words are no Overt Act that rests for their Opinion in another Case when it shall come for they have now no such Case before them Lord Stafford Thumbly conceive there is Lord High Steward There is a great difference between bare words being an Overt Act and perswasion by Promises of Money and Rewards to kill the King which is a very great Overt Act. Lord Stafford Is it possible to do an Act by Words If it be so I never heard it before Lord High Steward Otherwise men may promise Rewards to â—0 several persons to kill the King and then say 't is all but Words Lord Stafford I say it not but I humbly conceive the Law says it Lord High Steward What say you Gentlemen of the House of Commons Lord Stafford My Lords I have something to say which I desire to speak first My Lords I hope I have cleared to your Lordships that all the Witnesses have swore false against me and this I have made out by Proofs I say not much to that My Lord was searching for his Papers Truly my Lords I am confounded with the Noise and other Circumstances but my Lords I shall if your Lordships please to give me leave humbly represent my Case to you how I take it to be in matter of Fact as to my own Condition not any thing but how I am now before your Lordships I was my Lords committed by my Lord Chief Justices Warrant on the 20. or 21. of October 78. Friday the 25. of October I was brought to your Lordships Bar I was Impeached I do not remember the day my Lords the beginning of December in one Parliament Articles exhibited against me in another Parliament I was brought upon these Articles exhibited and being called to your Lordships Bar the Articles were read to me and I gave in my Answer that was sometime in May 79. and in the end of May the 27. if I mistake not if I do I desire it may be rectified by your Books I with the other Lords were brought to this place in order to our Trial. We staid some time there and then were remanded by your Order to the Tower where I continued till November twelve month after without having heard any thing concerning it so that I was first Impeached in one Parliament Articles brought against me and pleaded to in a second and now brought to my Trial in a third and what your Lordships will say upon this I submit to you and whether these be Proceedings according to Law your Lordships will judge My Lords I humbly conceive that Magna Charta says That Justice shall be denied nor delayed to no man whether it hath not been delayed to me let your Lordships judge If you say the Prorogation of the Parliament is the cause of that delay I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say That from the 5. of December to the 30. when the first Parliament was Prorogued or during the Session of the other Parliament there was time enough sure wherein I might have been brought to my Trial and if these proceedings be lawful and just there is no man living but may be kept off from time to time till some Accidents happen that their ends may be gained I leave it to your judgment whether it may be only my Case now or of some of your Lordships in future Ages to be accused of things that you never heard of before and not brought to justifie your selves but kept in Prison My Lords There is a Statute I have forgot where it is but such a one I have read that though
A wicked beginning it was and it had a wicked end For since our Saviours Death and Murder by the Jews never was so execrable a Murder in the World and whoever had an hand in it without an extraordinary Repentance can have no thoughts of Salvation I never could serve the King 't is true but in my desires and I never disserted him in Thought Word or Deed to my knowledg in my life much less did I ever contrive or consent to his Death I do in the presence of God Angels your Lordships and all Men declare I do know no more of the Plot or any such thing than any one here does That those of the Romish Religion had meetings I believe to obtain those ends that I spake of before Coleman went too far how far he was Criminal in it I cann't tell Meetings I say there were but I was never at one of them nor do I know what was done there I do leave it to your Lordships to do Justice as I know you will and with all submission I resign my self up to you Lord High Steward Have you done my Lord Lord Stafford If your Lordships will not allow me Counsel to argue those Points I have done Lord High Steward What say you Gentlemen of the House of Commons Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords some thing that my Lord hath spoken hath been resolved against him that is about two Witnesses to each Overt-act some things are not to be disputed about the Law and Course of Parliaments some things were not to be said now because he had said them before My Lords we had concluded our Evidence and he is pleased to take up the time with repeating what was said before For the other matters that my Lord is pleased to discourse of all he says is but his Obligations and how unreasonable it were for him to do it the Question is whether he hath done it or no if he hath his Obligations are an Aggravation of his Crime not an Excuse His Relations his Family and other things are nothing before your Lordships now in point of Judgment nor is there any thing new said to day that was not said before Sir William Jones My Lords I should not add one word further were it not that this Noble Lord is pleased upon his Memory or rather without to say something of me and that was that speaking of the Continuance of Procâ—edings I should say if your Lordships had no President I hope you would make one My Lords I do appeal to your Lordships Memory whether I said any thing like it I utterly deny it nor was there any occasion for it For there was no need of urging Presidents when your Lordships upon a Conference with the Commons did declare it to be the Law of Proceedings in Parliament and did then fortifie iâ— with many Arguments I know my Lords Memory is not very good I 'm sure in this he is very much mâ—staken My Lord hath been pleased to complain he hath received much disturbance and that the Noise and Shouts have been so great that they have occasioned some lâ—straction in him My Lords I am sure his Lordship cannot mean us for I appeal to your Lordships and all that have heard this Tryal whether he hath received the least disturbance or interruption from us or whether we have not treated him with that respect that becomes his Dignity and the Discretion that ought to be in the Managers of the House of Commons But I must needs say that his Lordship hath received distraction from those Friends or Counsel of his that put those many Papers into his Hand for he hath read one after another that do contain the same matter over and over again These I confess were sufficient to distract him or any other that should make use of them His Lordship hath been pleased to go off from the matter of Law to the matter of Fact and backward and forward so that it is impossible to follow him And as to the matter of Fact we shall decline to follow him for though we have not given his Lordship any disturbance yet we submit to your Judgment whether it be Regular or according to the Course of Proceedings when his Lordship hath sum'd up his Evidence and we that are the Prosecutors have concluded ours he should begin that work again which if it should be admitted we were to reply and he might rejoin upon us and so there would be no end of Proceedings And my Lords I hope though this Lord hath had the favour to do it yet it shall not for the future be brought into Example for it will make Tryals endless My Lords for the matter of Law there is nothing that deserves an Answer for though the Law does admit the Prisoner Counsel in matters of Law yet it must be in things doubtful And if there be any thing of that in our Case I submit it to your Lordships I am sure I have heard nothing new but what hath been over-ruled already unless it be a matter of Law which rises upon a matter of Fact and that not proved to wit the Corruption of Witnesses The last day all was said by his Lordship he could say and all said by us that we thought fit to say and now to begin the same matter again I think ought not to be admitted We shall not follow his Lordship in that way of Proceedings and hope it shall never fall into Example Sir Francis Winnington My Lords I have only one word to say to your Lordships and that is in relation to the Proceedings of the Commons in this Cause for if the Cause had not been of an extraordinary nature we should have stood upon it that the Prisoner ought not after the Prosecutors had concluded to have taken a liberty of reading and repeating what we had said over and over again We know my Lords there are are a sort of men in the world who are willing to lay hold of any pretences to cavil at our Proceedings and therefore we have let my Lord take all this liberty that so his Party might have no colour of Complaint His Lordship was pleased to say the last day that he had not a Witness more to produce nor a Reason to give as I understood him and therefore he must own that we have been very tender to him in all our Proceedings One thing my Lord insinuates to day which I cannot forbear taking notice of as if we had delayed him which is without cause we had used all diligence in preparing our selves and were soon ready when the King was pleased to let the Parliament sit and therefore it can be no imputation on us and truly if my Lord considers the weight of the Evidence I fear he will think his Tryal comes soon enough now Lord Stafford My Lords I desire to be rightly understood in one thing and 't is only this I did not say the House of Commons shouted at me but the
witness against me may look upon me face to face according to the words of the Statute I humbly beseech your Lordships to grant me this which I take to be according to Law and that each may give his Evidence alone and that both against me and for me one may not know what the other says Lord High Stew. My Lord You shall have all the fair proceeding that can be Lord Stafford The Law says my Accusers must look me face to face I desire to have the words read Lord High Steward Your Lordship may see him there where he stands up Then Mr. Smith turned and looked upon my Lord Stafford Lord Safford I do see him but do not know him Lord High Steward Swear him Clerk The Evidence that you shall give in the Tryal of William Viscount Stafford shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God and the Contents of this Book Lord High Steward Your Lordship observes he is not brought as a particular Witness against your Lordship but to prove the general Design of your Party Lord Stafford 'T is still concerning me Lord High Steward Look upon my Lord Stafford which he did and now tell your Evidence Mr. Treby This is Mr. Smith my Lords And that which we would examine this Witness to is the general Design of the Plot what knowledge he hath had of it here or beyond Sea the Gentleman is able to understand the general Question Mr. Smith My Lords I remember very well when I went first into France I came acquainted with Abbot Montague Father Gascoyn and several other Popish Priests and Jesuits who often discoursed with me and told me if I would make my self a Catholick I should have an Employment amongst them there and afterwards in England for they did not doubt but the Popish Religion would come in very soon upon which I asked his Lordship the Abbot one day what reason he had to believe it he told me two reasons first that they did not doubt but to procure a toleration of Religion by which they should bring it in without noise and secondly that the Gentry that went abroad did observe the novelty of their own Religion and the Antiquity of theirs and the advantages that were to be had by it These Reasons Abbot Montague gave me There was one Father Bennet and others that told me the chief reason was their party was very strong in England and in a few Years they would bring it in right or wrong All this would not prevail with me to turn Papist and I lived among them several Years At last I had a design to go to Rome and as I went I had a design to go to Provence and so into Italy where there was one Cardinal Grimaldi coming thorough the Town and the Jesuits having a great School there I was curious to go to the School and they were very desirous I should tarry for some time in the Town I did and they made much of me and told me much to the same substance what assurances they had of their Religion coming into England At last they had a desire I should discourse with the Cardinal which I did and he made much of me and he it was that perverted me to the Romish Religion upon this the Cardinal shewed me a pair of Hangings that were in his House which he said did belong to the Queen Mother and were bought in Paris and he told me he was acquainted with many of the Nobility in England and that he had great assurance the Popish Religion would prevail and he told me there was but one in the way and though that man was a good natured man yet they could not so far prevail upon him but that to accomplish their designs they must take him out of the way but at last I left this place and went to Rome where I lived some years in the English Jesuits Colledge there and when I had lived there five years I came to be Prefect of several Rooms there which are the Scholars Lodgings and places of Study I have heard it there often disputed in their own Colledge both preach'd and privately exhorted that the King of England was an Heretick and that there was no King really reigning and who ever took him out of the way would do a meritorious action Lord High Steward Who was that that said so Mr. Treby Name the persons Mr. Smith Father Anderton Rector of the Colledge who was a very good Scholar Father Mumford and one Father Campion but chiefly one Father Southwell one of the chief of the Jesuits And I doubting of the truth of that Opinion they did shew me several of their Books there and directed me to some passages of Mariana Vasquez and Bellarmine which I have since published to the world wherein they did assert it as a true Doctrine and as Christian Doctrine what the Fathers told me and this was never condemned at Rome Besides my Lords when I was coming from Rome with my Faculty and License signed by Cardinal Barberino who generally conducts or causes to be conducted all Papists to take their leave of the Pope and before we came away for there were five or six of us together for a whole month these Fathers were exhorting us That we were not obliged to obey the King of England and that in all private Confessions we were to instruct all persons that we thought were capable of any design That they should use all their endeavours for promoting the Popish Religion I coming into England made my application to Dr. Perrott who belonged to the Portugal Ambassador and was chief of the Popish Clergy in England I was kept there some months to say Mass in his Chappel and afterwards I was sent into the North where there were abundance of Jesuits and Fryers to one Mr. Jenison's House where knowing the Principles of these people I made it my business to rout these Jesuits away especially out of Mr. Jenison's House who had a Kinsman of his own that was a Jesuit and used to serve him in his House and great complaint was made against me and there was one Mr. Smith otherwise Serjeant in the North who gave me intimation of it ond to whom I wrote to satisfie him and the Clergy of the grounds and reasons why I routed them away which if he be in England now he can justifie Upon this I received a smart Letter as a kind of Reprimand for my doing so and he told me That though they did agree with me in Doctrine yet they would endeavour what they could to bring in the Popish Religion And taxed me sharply for appearing against it I told him how the Jesuits perverted the Duke of York and that by that means they would be the chief men in England though there were none of their Order till Queen Elizabeths time Besides My Lords in Rome I saw Coleman's Letters and read them once a month as I believe wherein he
Religion our King and his Protestant Subjects And 't is even impossible that this Design so big could be conducted without the concurrence of such persons as this Noble Lord at the Bar. It could not be carried on by less and lower men And it were a wonder that a person so servently affected and addicted as this Lord is to that Party should not be in at so general a Design of the Party But this indeed is but presumptive Evidence which will induce a moral persuasion We shall now produce such positive Evidence as will make a judicial certainty and will abundantly suffice to convince your Lordships and convict this Lord. The Particulars you will hear out of the mouths of the Witnesses whom we shall call They will testifie what share this Lord had in almost all the Parts and Articles in our Charge contriving and contracting for the Murder of the King levying Arms c. And first we call Mr. Dugdale L. Stafford My Lords I conceive I have good ground to except against this man for a Witness for my own particular I know myself as clear â—nd free as any one here but I will not except against him now but reserve it against the time when I come to make my Defence and therefore admit him to be sworn provided my Lords that he look me full in the face L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford what is your Exception against this man that he may not be a Witness L. Stafford I do admit him to be sworn I say nothing now against him Mr. Treby He is sworn already L. H. Stew. You swore him to give Evidence as to the general Plot you did not swear him as to the particulars against my Lord Stafford Sir John Trevor We are content he shall be sworn again we pray he may be sworn Sir Will. Jones 'T is true my Lords we did divide the Evidence into two parts but his Oath was not divided if your Lordships please you may swear them all over again if it may be any satisfaction but I think it was never seen before Then Mr. Dugdale was sworn L. H. Stew. There is Mr. Dugdale come Sir what say you L. Staff Really he is so changed I do not know him Mr. Dugd My Lord I have Witnesses to prove that you know me L. Staff I beg your Lordships that he may look me in the face and give his Evidence as the Law is Sir John Trevor My Lords if this Noble Lord the prisoner at the Bar will have this Witness to look him continually in the face the Court will not hear half his Evidence We desire he may address himself as the Law is to your Lordships and the Judges L. Staff I desire the Letter of the Law which says my Accuser shall come face to face Mr. Dugd. My Lords I am willing to do as your Lordships shall order L. H. Steward My Lord you do see the Witness that is enough for face to face and you make no legal exception against him why he should not be heard L. Staff Very well my Lord I submit Mr. Dugd. My Lords I have for some years past whilst I was a Servant with my Lord Aston been acquainted and frequently had Discourses with my Lord Stafford before we came to discourse any thing concerning the Plot on foot Lately in 78. my Lord coming down into the Countrey it was either in August or September the latter end of August or the beginning of September L. Staff I beseech your Lordships he may name the times L. H. Stew. My Lord if your Lordship please do not interrupt the Witnesses but wherein he is short do you ask him the Question when it comes to your turn I will bring it to as much certainty as I can Mr. Dugd. There was a meeting at Tixal where there were several present L. H. Steward When Mr. Dugdale It was in September or the latter end of August L. H. Stew. What year Mr. Dugdale 78. My Lords I had then by Mr. Evers means admittance to hear because of my incouragement what the Discourse was at that time It was to debate and determine upon the former Resolutions both beyond Sea and at London before both to take away the life of the King and to introduce their Religion of which I was then one My Lord Stafford was there present and did with the rest consent to it Afterwards my Lord Stafford being at one Mr. Abnets of Stafford one Sunday morning in September came to my Lord Aston's House to Mass I met with my Lord Stafford at some distance from the Gate and my Lord speaking to me when he alighted off from his Horse told me it was a very sad thing they could not say their Prayers but in an hidden manner but e're long we should have our Religion established which was much to my joy at that time After that time my Lord Stafford was sometimes at Stafford and sometimes at Tixal I will not bâ— positive as to a day but I think it was about the middle of September My Lord Stafford sent for me to his lodging Chamber as he had several times before sent for me and said he had had great Commendations of me from Mr. Evers that I was Faithful and Trusty Lord Stafford My Lords I desire I may have Pen Ink and Paper allowed me L. H. Stew. Ay God forbid you should be denied that Give my Lord Pen Ink and Paper I hope your Lordship hath one to assist you that takes Notes for you if you have not you have lost a great deal of time already L. Staff There was one all day yesterday my Lords I desire he may speak his Evidence over again L. H. Stew. Let him begin his Evidence again for my Lord had not Pen Ink nor Paper which he ought to have to help his memory Mr. Dugdale I may miss as to the words but the matter of Fact I shall repeat my Lords I have been frequently acquainted whilst I was a Servant at my Lord Aston's with my Lord Stafford coming to my Lords House in the Counâ—rey and my Lord being several times there I came to that Intimacy by Mr. Evers means that my Lord would frequently discourse with me About the latter end of August or some day in September my Lord Stafford my Lord Aston and several other Gentlemen were in a Room in my Lord Aston's House and by the means of Mr. Evers I was admitted to hear for my incouragement and there I heard them in that Debate at that time fully determine a Resolution upon all the Debates that had been beyond Sea and at London before That it was the best way they could resolve on to take away the life of the King as the speediest means to introduce their own Religion After sometime my Lord being at Stafford at Mr. Abnets L. H. Steward Was my Lord Stafford at that meeting where they debated to kill the King Mr. Dugdale My Lord was there L. H. Steward Was he consenting to
proof of it 't is not to affect me Fifthly There is is one Point of Law more That no man can be condemned for Treason as I conceive by one Witness and there are not two Witnesses to any Point These are the Points of Law I humbly beg your Lordships pardon for the trouble and desire your Opinion in them Sir William Jones My Lords Before we make answer to what my Lord hath said I do humbly desire That for the Objection which he hath made against Mr. Southall proved by a Noble Lord of this House though I must observe it was not of his own knowledge but by Hear-say and that matter of Hear-say contrary to the Act of Oblivion to the end there may no doubt remain of Mr. Southall's Credit that a Noble Lord of this House and a Gentleman of the House of Commons who both know Mr. Southall may be heard to his Reputation Sir Fran. Winn. My Lord Ferrers knew him not himself but my Lord Brook and Mr. Gower will give a better account of him Then the Lord Brook was sworn Lord Brook My Lords What I have to say concerning this Mr. Southall is That he hath been often employed both by my Brother and my Mother and they have so good an Opinion of him that they employ him still and therefore we take him for an honest man and an able man or he would not be so much trusted and employed and I take him to be a very good Churchman for if he was not I would not employ him L. H. Steward An honest man an able and a good Churchman your Lordship says Lord Brook He receives the Sacrament four times a year Sir Will. Jones Then swear Mr. VVilliam Leveson Gower a Member of the House of Commons which was done in his place Mr. L. Gower My Lords I have been near 7 years of Staffordshire but did not know Mr. Southall till this Popish Plot was discovered After that I came acquainted with him being a Justice of the Peace in that County in Court where I found him to be the most zealous Prosecutor of the Papists in that Country no man like him I likewise found several Popish Priests had by his means been apprehended and imprisoned and one of them since convicted who by the way still remains unexecuted in Stafford Goal What Opinion some may have heard or had of him formerly I cannot tell but this I know that he hath more than once come to desire my Assistance that he might prosecute the Papists the most effectual way upon the Statutes made for that purpose and that he did complain to me that he had not met with good usage elsewhere My Lords I take Opinion to be grounded upon Principles and I do observe that those of this Country who do believe this Popish Plot and know Mr. Southall and are principl'd for the Preservation of the King the Protestant Religion and the Government do at this time speak well of him and those who are not so principl'd speak otherwise My Lords I was surpris'd when I heard my Name mention'd upon this occasion I have told your Lordships all the matter of Fact that upon the suddain occurs to me with my own Opinion which I offer with all submission and had I had notice I might possibly have recollected more which I would freely have declared to your Lordships but this is all that I can now say L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I would say one word if you will give me leave I am very ignorant and beg your Lordships pardon for troubling of you I humbly desire to know whether after the Points of Law are argued I may speak something not concerning the Evidence of the Plot but concerning my self Sir Will. Jones My Lords we shall not oppose the saying any thing he can for himself but we must conclude and have the last word L. H. Steward My Lord the Gentlemen that are for the House of Commons must conclude My Lords will give you all the favour they can but they must have the last word L. Stafford I do not oppose it L. H. Steward Therefore you will do well to say all you have to say together For the Points of Law my Lords will give no Judgement till the Commons have answered them and they I suppose will first sum up the whole Proofs then you may say what you have to say for they must make an end Gentlemen will you speak first to the Law Sir Will. Jones No my Lords first to the Fact L. H. Steward Go on then Then Sir William Jones One of the Committee appointed to manage the Evidence began to sum up the same as followeth MAy it please your Lordships We have now done our Evidence as to matter of Fact and that which I have in Charge at this time is to remind your Lordships of our Proofs to answer the Objections that have been made against them and to make some Observations upon the whole My Lords The Members of the House of Commons that were appointed for the Service of the Management of this Tryal those of them I mean who began the first day made a Division of our Evidence into two parts the one that which concerned the Plot in general and the other what related to this Lord in particular My Lords as to the Plot in general we did call six Witnesses I know some of your Lordships have taken Notes and you have their Names they were Smith Dugdale Prance Oats Denis and Jenison My Lords because I will save as much of your time as I can I will not take upon me to repeat what each Witness said as to the Plot in general but when I come to the Evidence which immediately concerns my Lord I must beg your favour that I may be more particular I will say thus much for the Proofs of the Plot in general That there was by those Witnesses so much fully proved that made it most apparent That there was a general Design amongst the Roman Catholicks to introduce their false Religion into this Kingdom That the Jesuits had several Meetings to that end That they endeavoured to do it by several ways by raising of Armes by collecting of Monies and by designing against the Kings Life nay they had so far advanced their Designs and were in so much readiness as they thought it time to appoint Officers not only for their Army but for the Civil Government as if the Work were already accomplished Your Lordships were told by one of the Witnesses of a Lord Chancellor and of a Lord Treasurer Lords now in the Tower yet to be tried and you were told also of Officers for the Military part a General a Lieutenant-General and this Lord at the Bar to be Pay-Master of the Army I shall my Lords desire to take notice to your Lordships That this Design though it was to be finally acted by other Hands yet was it first contrived and afterwards carried on by the Priests and
a point of Fact Let us therefore resort to the Articles themselves In the 2 d Article it is alledged that he with the rest did most wickedly and traiterously agree conspire and resolve to Imprison Depose and Murther His Sacred Majesty and to deprive Him of his Regal State and Government And then the same Article alledges farther that they did contrive and consult to effect the Murther of the King by Shooting by Poisoning and by Stabbing All these particulars are expressed so that when my Lord said the Articles were therein defective all we can say is that he was misinform'd My Lords there was another Exception taken that this is the Impeachment of another Parliament I must not now repeat how this Point was agreed by both Houses at a Conference But it was then declared upon search of Precedents in all ages that it was the Law of Parliaments which is the Law of the Land that if once an Impeachment by the House of Commons were lodged in the House of Lords tho' that Parliament were dissolved the Impeachment remained in the same state It was the Cause of the Commons of England who only change their Representatives in a new Parliament It has been also objected that this Prosecution ought to have been upon an Indictment As if an Accusation of the House of Commons who are the grand Inquest of the Nation were not as effectual to bring Offenders to Justice as the finding of a particular Jury My Lords I should wonder to hear this Objection made were not my Lord to be easily excused for his knowing the Law no better None who know any thing in the Law would have urg'd such a thing His Counsel I dare say did not suggest this matter to him It is true my Lords when a Peer comes to be Tried by way of Commission or in Parliament when it is not at the prosecution of the Commons there an Indictment is first found in the proper County and brought up before the Peers by Certiorari and upon that they proceed But whether the Party be Peer or Commoner if he be Impeach'd for any Crimes surely no one can deny but that by the constant use of Parliaments the Lords have proceeded to Trial and have given Judgment thereupon without an Indictment found So that this Exception will be of no force at all As for the remaining Objection that there are not two Witnesses to prove any one Overt Act the Kings Person would be in no manner of safety if that Doctrine should be once allowed Conspiring to kill the King is the Treason laid in the Impeachment and the several Overt Acts are so many several Evidences of that Treason Words themselves if they signifie an intention to do an Act and express something to be done in futuro are a sufficient Overt Act a legal Evidence of Treason Then we prove by another Witness not words of encouragement only but offers of money and they are both to the same kind of Treason tho' not to the same Act and at the same time And if there must be 2 Witnesses to every single Act the King of England is not only in a far worse condition than any other Prince but than any one of his own Subjects Treasons may be committed every day with Impunity and unless the Traytors be as great Fools as Villains he shall never be safe from them nor capable of punishing them I must say it and I say it with commiseration to the Condition of this Noble Lord that his Exceptions in Law are as weak as the Answers he has given to our Evidence We hope no doubt in Law remains with you and that we have given your Lordships full satisfaction of the reality of the Plot and a convincing Evidence of the great share which my Lord Stafford had in it and we humbly pray your Lordships Justice Lord High Steward You do not take notice of one thing that my Lord Stafford said this morning That is that the Witnesses are not competent Witnesses because they swore for Money and that is fit to be spoken unto not for the Weight of the Objection so much as for the Satisfaction of the Auditory Sir Francis Winnington My Lords I had taken a Note of that but forgot to mention it If my Lord at the Bar will say they have taken Money to swear that is purely a Matter of Fact which he ought to prove and that which is said and not proved ought to go for nothing let him prove his Case to be so and then we will give him an Answer Lord High Stward My Lord Stafford if your Lordship can prove that they have had Money to swear your Lordship urges that which will be material but if it were only Money to maintain them that sure will amount to no Objection Lord Stafford My Lords I submit it to your Lordships whether Dr. Oats and the rest have not had great Sums of Money besides their Charges 10 l. a week a piece But I desire your Lordships to consider and I appeal to many of your Lordships whether it has not been said that it was a defect in Coleman's and Langhorn's Trials that they did not plead that and if they had pleaded it they must have been acquitted I will name no body but I appeal to your Lordships whether some of you have not said so But I desire your Lordships to admit me to plead by my Counsel if not I submit to you I confess here is a piece of Law that I never heard of before that the House of Commons and your Lordships at a Conference have adjudged it to be the Law of Parliaments that Impeachments shall continue from Parliament to Parliament If you will please to hear my Counsel for me so if not I submit Lord High Steward What would you or can you prove Lord Stafford My Lords Those things that I have given in to your Lordships I desire my Counsel may be heard to Lord High Steward Gentlemen what can you object why he should not have Counsel to argue his Objections in Law Sir William Jones My Lords I do think under favour if a Prisoner in a Capital Cause do desire Counsel he must not only alledge matter of Law to introduce that Desire but that which he doth alledge must be also a matter of some Doubt to the Court For if he do alledge matter which in it self is not Disputable he shall have no Counsel allowed him If your Lordships are not satisfied that it is the Law of your House that Proceedings upon Impeachments do continue from Parliament we cannot answer that it lies in your Lordships breasts it is not what we are to argue because it is a matter that concerns the Law and Rules of Parliaments Is there my Lords any doubt of any other Point that is urged Is there any doubt of this thing whether if one Witness speak to one point of Fact and another to another upon the same sort of Treason but that
these be two such Witnesses as the Law requires I pray then my Lords consider the consequence of that doubt A man shall talk with twenty Persons about a Design to kill the King in one and the same Room one after another by taking them into a Corner singly and if ten or all twenty come to prove it here is but one Witness to each Discourse This would be a matter of dangerous Consequence but I hope will remain no manner of doubt with you nor is it fit to be argued As to the Hiring of Witnesses to Swear I think that can be no point of Law till it be so proved in Fact Doth his Lordship think that when His Majesty out of His Grace and Bounty allows a Maintainance to His Witnesses that that is an Objection to their Testimony Doth not every man allow his Witnesses a a Maintainance and yet it never was thought a thing to take away their Evidence It may be every one doth not give so large an allowance as the King because his Dignity is not so great But can it be an Objection to the House of Commons Have we that are the Prosecutors maintained them If His Majesty have been bountiful to His Witnesses what is that to this Cause of the Commons If my Lord can prove any thing of Bribery in us as he has proved for us against himself it may be an Objection But till that Fact be proved I hope there is no ground for a Question in Law and if there be no doubt in Law I hope there will be no need of Counsel Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford What are the Points you would have Counsel too Lord Stafford To all of them my Lords Lord High Steward Would you have Counsel to the first Point to argue what the Law of Parliaments is concerning the continuance of Impeachments from Parliament to Parliament Lord Stafford My Lords if you will declare the Law to be as these Gentlemen say I must acquiesce Lord High Steward Pardon me my Lord I do not declare the Law but ask you whether you would have Counsel to argue that Point Lord Stafford My Lords I do say there is no Example of it I know there have been Impeachments but no Examples of Impeachments continued from Parliament to Parliament Lord High Steward Then in the next place for I shall propose your Objections to their Lordships by and by and desire their Judgment in them Do you desire to argue by your Counsel that every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses Lord Stafford I do my Lords I desire my Counsel may be heard to all the Points I mentioned to your Lordships Lord High Steward Have you Counsel ready to speak to these Points now Lord Stafford Yes my Lords Lord High Steward Are they prepared to speak to them now Lord Stafford They are my Lords Lord High Steward If they be so what hurt will there be in hearing of them Sir William Jones My Lords Whether you will hear an Argument from Counsel about the Law of Parliaments I hope you will please well to consider Sir Fran. VVinnington My Lords We in the House of Commons do never suffer any Counsel to tell us what is the Course of our House and the Law of Parliaments if your Lordships think fit to allow it 't is in your own power but we who are intrusted with the Management of this Cause by the House of Commons have no direction to consent to such a thing Lord High Steward We will hear Counsel to save time upon that Point whether in proof of a Treason for killing the King every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses Sir William Jones If your Lordships make a doubt of it Sir Fran. Winnington And if the Prisoner desire it Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords We shall not oppose it but I shall wonder if any Counsel do maintain it Lord High Steward Are your Counsel ready to speak to that Point Lord Stafford Here they are my Lords Mr. Wallop of the Middle-Temple Mr. Saunders of the same Society and Mr. Hunt of Gray's Inn appeared by the Prisoner at the Bar as his Counsel Mr. Wallop May it please your Lordships we are here commanded by your Lordships to Attend that if any matter of Law do arise upon a Case proved agreed and judged by your Lordships debateable then in due time we are to conform our selves to your Lordships command and argue those Points for my Lord the Prisoner at the Bar. But if your Lordships do think that the Points urged by my Lord are not debateable in Law I have so high an Opinion of your Lordships Judgment and such a mean opinion of my own Talent that I shall not undertake to Argue Extempore in this great Assembly in a Cause of so high a Nature Lord High Steward Look you Sir you are of my Lords Counsel Mr. Wallop I am my Lords and by the Order of your Lordships do attend here Lord High Steward If you think it an arguable Point you will have the Judgment of my Lords afterwards Will you argue it now Mr. VVallop My Lords I always thought if a Point be stirred in any Court and thought disputable it should be stated and agreed before it be argued Lord High Steward You are to argue for my Lord and to know the Judgment of the Court afterwards would you know our Opinions before hand Mr. VVallop We would know what it is we are to argue if your Lordships please Lord High Steward Why if you are provided for it you are to maintain that by Law every Overt Act ought to be proved by two Witnesses if you are prepared speak to it and my Lords will hear you Mr. VVallop It is true my Lords there have been some publick Resolutions concerning that Point therefore I shall be the warier what I say in that But my Lords it is a matter that has been thought of great import one way or other but I do profess at this time I am not able to undertake a Solemn Argument upon that Point Lord Stafford My Lords I am so far from delaying this Cause that I desire it may be argued now Lord High Steward Then you are not ready to speak to it Mr. VVallop No my Lords I am not for my own part at present for it is impossible we should foresee what would be the Point and to apply our selves to study an unforeseen Case before it be agreed stated and judged worthy of Argument cannot be expected from us I have always observed it in the King's-Bench If the Prisoner urge any thing and the Court think it debateable they first agree and state the Case then Assign Counsel whom they do not urge to deliver an Opinion presently but give them time to prepare for it Lord High Steward Mr. VVallop it is not believed that this Point is moved but by your Advice that are of my Lord's Council and you should be ready to maintain the Advice you give
Rabble Lord High Steward Is it your Lordships pleasure to Adjourn Lords Ay Ay. Lord High Steward Then this House is Adjourned to the Parliament Chamber Then the Lords withdrew in their former Order and the Committee of Commons went back to their House Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clarke Mr. Speaker The Lords have commanded us to acquaint this House that they have appointed William Viscount Stafford to be brought to the Bar in Westminster-Hall to morrow morning at Ten of the Clock to receive Judgment The Commons Adjourned to Eight of the Clock the next Morning The Seventh Day Tuesday December 7. 1680. ABout the hour of Eleven the Lords Adjourned into Westminster-Hall going thither in their former Order into the Court there erected and Mr. Speaker having left the Chair the Committee of Commons were seated as before The Lords being sate Proclamation was made for Silence and the Lord High Steward being seated on the Wool-pack with Garter Principal King of Arms the Usher of the Black Rod Nine Maces attending him with all the rest of the Solemnity as was at first expressed took the Votes of the Peers upon the Evidence beginning at the Puisne Baron and so upwards in this Order the Lord Stafford being as the Law requires absent Lord High Steward My Lords I am an humble Suitor to your Lordships That you will give me leave to collect your Votes as I sit for I am not able to stand Which being granted the Lord High Steward proceeded Lord High Steward My Lord Butler of Weston Is William Lord Viscount Stafford Guilty of the Treason whereof he stands Impeached or Not Guilty Lord Butler Not Guilty upon my Honour The same Question was put to the rest whose Names and Votes follow Lord Arundel of Trerice Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Crewe Guilty upon my Honour Lord Cornwallis Guilty upon my Honour Lord Holles Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Wootton Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Rockingham Guilty upon my Honour Lord Lucas Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Astley Guilty upon my Honour Lord Ward Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Byron Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Hatton Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Leigh Guilty upon my Honour Lord Herbert of Cherbury Guilty upon my Honour Lord Howard of Escrick Guilty upon my Honour Lord Maynard Guilty upon my Honour Lord Lovelace Guilty upon my Honour Lord Deincourt Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Grey of Wark Guilty upon my Honour Lord Brook Guilty upon my Honour Lord Norreys Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Chandos Guilty upon my Honour Lord North and Grey Guilty upon my Honour Lord Pagett Guilty upon my Honour Lord Wharton Guilty upon my Honour Lord Eure. Guilty upon my Honour Lord Cromwell Guilty upon my Honour Lord Windsor Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Conyers Guilty upon my Honour Lord Ferrers Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Morley Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Mowbray Not Guilty upon my Honour Lord Viscount Newport Guilty upon my Honour Lord Viscount Faulconberge Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Conway Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Berkley Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Maslesfield Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Hallifax Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Feversham Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Sussex Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Guilford Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Shaftsbury Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Burlington Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Ailesbury Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Craven Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Carlisle Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bath Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Essex Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Clarendon Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of St Albans Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Scarsdale Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Sunderland Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Thanet Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Chesterfield Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Carnarvan Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Winchelsea Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Stamford Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Peterborough Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl Rivers Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Mulgrave Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Barkshire Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Manchester Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Westmorland Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Clare Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bristol Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Denbigh Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Northampton Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Leicester Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bridgwater Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Salisbury Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Suffolk Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Bedford Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Huntingdon Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Rutland Not Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Kent Guilty upon my Honour Earl of Oxford Guilty upon my Honour Lord Chamberlain Not Guilty upon my Honour Marquess of Worcester Not Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Newcastle Not Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Monmouth Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Albemarle Guilty upon my Honour Duke of Buckingham Guilty upon my Honour Lord Privy-Seal Guilty upon my Honour Lord President Guilty upon my Honour Lord High Steward Guilty upon my Honour Prince Rupert Duke of Cumberland Guilty upon my Honour Lord High Steward My Lords upon telling your Votes I find there are Thirty one of my Lords that think the Prisoner Not Guilty and Fifty five that have found him Guilty Serjeant make Proclamation for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring his Prisoner to the Bar. which was done and his Lordship came to the Bar. Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford I have but heavy tidings for you your Lordship hath been Impeached of High-Treason you have pleaded Not Guilty my Lords have heard your Defence and have considered of the Evidence and their Lordships do find you Guilty of the Treason whereof you are Impeached Lord Stafford Gods Holy Name be praised my Lords for it Lord High Steward What can your Lordship say for your self why Judgment of Death should not be given upon you according to the Law Lord Stafford My Lords I have very little to say I confess I am surprized at it for I did not expect it but Gods will be done and your Lordships I will not murmur at it God forgive those that have sworn falsly against me My Lords I conceive I have something to say for respit of Judgment I have been at many Tryals in my Life but I never saw any Tryal where the party tried did not hold up his Hand which I was never asked to do I thought it had been a very material point in the Law That by the holding up of the Hand he might be known to be the Person I have read lately since I had the misfortune to be thus accused Sir Edward Coke upon the Pleas of the Crown and he says that Misnomer the not giving a man
being asked if he hath any thing or knows what to say for himself why the Court here ought not to proceed to Judgment and Execution of him upon the Verdict aforesaid saith nothing but as before he had said And hereupon instantly the Attorney General of our said Lord the King according to due form of Law demandeth against him the said Edward Judgment and Execution to be had upon the Verdict aforesaid for our Lord the King Whereupon all and singular the Premisses being viewed and by the Court here understood It is considered That the said Edward Coleman be led by the said Keeper of the Gaol of Newgate aforesaid unto Newgate aforesaid from thence directly be drawn to the Gallows of Tyburn and upon those Gallows there be hanged and be cut down alive to the Earth and his Entrals be taken out of hiâ— Belly and be burned he still living and that the Head of him be cut off and that the Body of him be divided into Four parts and that those Head and Quarters be put where our Lord the King will assign them c. L. Staff I do not hear one word he says my Lords L. H. Stew. My Lord this does not concern your Lordship any further than as to the generality of the Plot. Sir Will. Jones My Lords we have now done with our Proofs for the first general head that we opened which was to make it out that there was a Plot in general We now come to give our particular Evidence against this very Lord and before we do begin we think fit to acquaint your Lordships that our Evidence will take up some time if your Lordships will have the patience to hear it now we will give it but if your Lordships will not sit so long till we can finish it it may be some inconvenience to us to break off in the middle And therefore we humbly offer it to your Lordships consideration whether you will hear it now or no. L. H. Stew. If it cannot be all given and heard now it were better all should be given to morrow Sir Will. Jones If your Lordships please then we will reserve it till to morrow L. Staff My Lords I would only have your directions whether I shall answer this General first or stay till all be said against me That which I have to say to this General will be very short L. H. Stew. My Lord you are to make all your Answer entire and that is best for you L. Staff I am very well contented that I may be the better prepared for it L. H. Stew. Is it your Lordships pleasure that we should Adjourn into the Parliament Chamber Lords Ay Ay. L. H. Stew. Then this House is Adjourned into the Parliament Chember And the Lords went away in the same Order they came The Commons returned to their House and Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair and then the House Adjourned to eight of the clock the next morning The Second Day Wednesday December 1. 1680. A Message was sent from the Lords by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clark Mr Speaker The Lords have sent us to acquaint this House That they intend to proceed to the Tryal of William Viscount Stafford at ten of the clock this morning in Westminster-Hall Mr. Speaker left the Chair and the Commons came into Westminster Hall in the new erected Court And the Managers appointed by the Commons went into the Room prepared for them in that Court to proceed to the particular Evidence against William Viscount Stafford About ten of the clock in the morning the Lords came into the said Court in their former Order and Proclamation being made of Silence and for the Lieutenant of the Tower to bring his Prisoner to the Bar they proceeded L. H. Stew. My Lords expect you should go on with your Evidence and proceed in the Tryal of this Noble Lord. L. Stafford My Lords if your Lordships please I humbly desire that my Counsel may be near me for the Arguing of what is fit to them to speak to as to points of Law for points of Fact I do not desire it L. H. Stew. My Lord you have an Order for your Counsel to attend and they must and ought to attend Mr. Serjeant Maynard The Counsel must not suggest any thing to him while the Evidence is giving they are not to be heard as to matter of Fact L. H. Stew. It is not intended to make use of Counsel as to matter of Fact but they may stand by Mr. Serjeant Maynard My Lords they may stand within hearing but not within prompting L. Staff I assure you if I had all the Counsel in the world I would not make use of them for any matter of Fact Mr. Treby My Lords will you please to order them to stand at a convenient distance that they may not prompt the Prisoner Sir Will. Jones My Lords I hope your Lordships will consider that a man in a Capital Cause ought not to have Counsel to matter of Fact 'T is true he may advise with his Counsel I deny it not but for him in the face of the Court to communicate with his Counsel and by them be told what he shall say as to matters of Fact is that which with submission is not to be allowed If your Lordships order they shall be within hearing I do not oppose it but then I desire they may stand at that distance that there may be no means of intercouse unless points in Law do arise L. H. Stew. You were best make that exception when there is Cause for it in the mean time go on with your Evidence Sir Franc. Winn. We did perceive his Counsel came up towards the Bar and very near him and therefore we thought it our duty to speak before any inconvenience happened This Lord being accused of High Treason the allowing of Counsel is not a matter of Discretion If matters of Law arise all our Books say that Counsel ought to be allowed But we pray that there may be no Counsel to advise him in matter of Fact nor till your Lordships find some Question of Law to arise upon the Evidence L. H. Stew. When there is Cause take the Exception but they do not as yet misbehave themselves Mr. Treby My Lords we presume your Lordships did from the strength and clearness of yesterdays Evidence receive full satisfaction concerning the general Plot and Conspiracy of the Popish Party It being an Evidence apparently invincible not out of the mouths of two or three Witnesses only but of twice that number or more credible persons Upon which we doubt not but your Lordships who hear and Strangers and unborn Posterity when they shall hear will justifie this Prosecution of the Commons and will allow that this Impeachment is the proper voice of the Nation crying out as when the knife is at the throat By the Evidence already given I say it is manifeâ—t that there was a general grand Design to destroy our
that you were much spent in Discourse and Tired with what already you have done My Lords are extreamly willing to give your Lordship all the Favour and Accommodation possible for the Recollecting your self therefore my Lords will not now put you upon it to go on to make your Defence but will give you time till to Morrow L. Stafford I humbly give your Lordships thanks for your kindness and Favour to me but here I profess and call Almighty God to witness rather than I would have it thought I am willing to put it off I would have sunk down Dead at the Bar. But my Lords there was another Demand that I made Your Lordships say I shall have Copies of all the Journals and that you cannot help me to the Affidavit of Turbervile I submit to it without saying one word more but I desire that I may have brought hither to Morrow the Journals and other Papers in the Lords House but I desire also the two Affidavits of Dugdale taken the one the 24. the other the 29. of December following which Depositions were taken before Mr. Lane and Mr. Vernon in Stafford Town when Dugdale was in Prison L. H. Stew. Look you my Lord This is all under the same Rule What Evidence soever there is before the Court of Peers that you shall have whatsoever Evidence is not in that Court you ought to come provided of the Court is not to stay nor to help you to Evidence L. Staff My Lord I beg your pardon Dugdale made an Affidavit then and says the clean contrary now I desire nothing but Justice and I am sure I shall have all Justice from your Lordships L. H. Stew. Produce it and alledge what you will for your self it shall be heard L. Staff How then shall I be able to make my Defence if I have not those Papers which I humbly concieve by the Law ought to be brought These Gentlemen of the House of Commons say That I could not have Turbervile's Affidavit because it was in the House and they could not give it without consent of the House but this was examined before a Justice of Peace and returned to the Council Sure I shall have that I was examined by my Lord of Essex and my Lord of Bridgewater upon that Affidavit twice I think therefore that is material and necessary and I know your Lordships would not have me come to defend my self without Weapons L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford I do beseech your Lordship to be a little better informed in your own Business You have leave to make use of the Journal and all Papers that are entred there the Clerks say Dugdale's Oath is entred there L. Stafford Is the 24. of December there Clerk It is there L. H. Stew. Pray my Lord do not put the Court upon Interrogatories but come provided as well as you can L. Stafford If it be entred on the Journal Book I desire not the Original I am very well satisfied L. H. Stew. Will you be ready to go on to morrow my Lord L. Stafford I will withall my heart L. H. Stew. 'T is too late Gentlemen to go on to Night we must Adjourn till to Morrow Lord Stafford My Lords I had so much to write last Night that I had very little sleep I desire I may not come till Ten. L. H. Stew. My Lord I am not able to hear you I take as much pains to come near you as I can L. Stafford I had a great deal to write last Night I say and I want some sleep I desire I may not come till Ten. L. H. Stew. Will you be ready by Ten a Clock to Morrow L. Stafford I will be ready by Ten. L. H. Stew. I will move my Lords when they are withdrawn to Adjourn till Ten to Morrow But my Lord Stafford I do not know how your Lordship is provided or how you look after your own Business If you have not had Copies of the Journal all this while 't is you are in the fault A great deal of it is in Print you may send your Solicitor to the Clerk of the Parliament and take Copies of what you have need of I give you notice of it that if you come unprovided you may know it is your own fault L. Stafford I do acknowledge I have Copies of the Journal Book I think of all but I do not find any thing of Dugdale's second Deposition there L. H. Stew. Here is that of the 24. of December that you ask after send your Solicitor and then you shall have a Copy out of the Journal of it L. Stafford I assure your Lordship I will be ready to morrow if I can get those Copies Lord High Steward My Lords will give you as much Ease and all the Accommodations that are fit L. Stafford Then to morrow I will be ready by Ten a Clock if your Lordships please only I would desire your Lordships to take notice that these Gentlemen of the House of Commons do acknowledge that Turbervile swore one day to one year and the next day to another L. H. Stew. My Lord Stafford you say you can be ready to morâ—ow at Ten a Clock Are you sure you can be ready then L. Stafford I say my Lords this I shall not be so ready as I shall be next day but I assure your Lordships I will rather sink down in the place where I am if you think fit than put off the Tryal L. H. Stew. Look you Gentlemen of the House of Commons in a Case of this consequence and of this Vital Importance to a Man as this is where is the inconvenience if there should be a days respite and the Court should Adjourn till Friday if my Lords be moved in it I make no direction but what inconvenience will be in it Will it not be every way as well Sir Will. Jones My Lords your Lordships does not expect from us to give our consent to put off the Tryal L. H. Stew. I ask only what inconvenience it is Sir Will. Jones Your Lordships are the Judges and will do as you find it reasonable but this I say it is very unusual and scarce to be Presidented that when the Prosecutors have given an Evidence the Prisoner should have time a further considerable time to give his Answer to it the Prisoner knows before hand the general Scope and Drift of the Evidence therefore for him to have time till to morrow is a favour but to have more than that even a whole day to intervene is very unusual L. H. Stew. If that be all and the matter depend upon what is usual I do venture with my Lords leave to inform you that my Lord of Strafford had two days time after the Prosecution to give his Answer to what was said against him Sir William Jones That was an Evidence upon Twenty Eight Articles this but upon Two Heads and that was after a long Examination of many days L. Stafford My Lords
but puts them off and makes them complain says my Lord my Son is now at Standall but I will tell him as soon as he comes home and if you will bring the persons that have waited so long for their money and made so many journeys you shall hear what he will say to it Within a while my Lord Aston that now is came down and I went thither to see what became of it And I went to the Bâ—wling Green where my Lord and his Son were but my old Lord said nothing to me of it nor his Son neither Within a few days my old Lord Aston's Gentleman came down to my House one Mr. Ashley said I I wonder whether my Lord Aston hath acquainted his Son with what I told him says he he hath but it signifies nothing for he will hear nothing against Mr. Dugdale This I speak upon my Oath 't is true L. H. Steward Your Lordship sees what this Gentlemans Opinion was of Dugdale then he would hear nothing against him Will your Lordship conclude L. Stafford My Lords I am mighty unready and know not which way to turn my self upon those new things they have brought for I knew nothing of it nor expected any such thing But will you be pleased that I may call Simon Wright again VVho stood up L. H. Stew. What would your Lordship have with him L. Stafford I have nothing to say to him but to desire him to seé this Letter whether it be of his own Writing or no. L. H. Stew. Look upon that Paper shew it him which was done L. H. Stew Is it your hand Wright This is my hand 'T is part of that I was hired to do There is another of a great deal more consequence than that L. H. Stew. Deliver it in and read it Clerk June the 14. 1680. Sir I Can I bless God with a safe Conscience declare upon Oath that Mr. Dugdale hath been unkind to me in taking his opportunity of my Poverty by reason of a private meeting of us two by his appointment he did that time proffer if I would swear against You and Mr. Gerard he would protect me as one of the King's Evidence and I should not want Money and in the Hall at Westminster he said if I did discover it that day at Mrs. Price's Tryal he would set me in the Pillory This I have owned to his face and shall not go back from this and more neither for fear nor favour So I rest as you shall find by your Servant Sim. Wright L. H. Steward Is this your hand VVright Yes my Lords this I was advised word for word to write L. H. Stew. Who pen'd this for you Did you pen it your self VVright No my Lords they penn'd it and a great while I would not set my hand to it but Jermin Drayton said I need not fear I was not to swear against the King L. H. Steward Who is that VVright He is Butler to Mr. Heveningham L. Stafford See what you have under his hand I have no more to say to him VVright But by their perswasion at last I did wright it and a great deal more then that Sir William Jones I desire to ask Mr. VVright whether they would have had him swore this L. H. Stew. Were you desired to swear this VVright No my Lords they never put me to swear it for they told me I was not to swear against the King but if I would be so kind to make an Affidavit before a Justice of Peace I might then go where I would into the Country and I should have money to bear my charges Sir VVilliam Jones Who would have had you swear it before a Justice of Peace Wright Jermin Drayton and Mr. Longmore where he is I can't tell but he told me that Sir James Symons was better able to perform than Dugdale was to promise Mr. Serj. Maynard The same thing that was done by Redding he was convicted for it and stood in the Pillory Sir Will. Jones We desire to know whether he was ever with Sir James Symons himself and what he offered Wright I was once with him at the Kings Bench I dined there after I had written the Paper that was read he gave me 20 s. and said he hoped I would not go off from what I had said and he hoped I was sensible his gratuity would not be wanting and was sorry he had not occasion to use me Sir Will. Jones My Lords we have done with him I only observe that my Lord Stafford was pleased to produce this Paper he was Master of it and had it in his keeping Sir Fran. VVinnington Wright says there is another Paper of more Consequence I wish his Lordship would produce that also L. Stafford I did not know of this till just now it was delivered into my hands Did you see Mr. Longmore before this Letter was writ VVright Both before and after to the best of my remembrance and at the time when Sir James's Tryal should have been at the Sign of the Crown in Kings-street in Bloomsbury L. H. Steward My Lord will you conclude L. Stafford My Lords I desire your Lordships Pardon I do not know how really to go about it to night I will obey your Commands though I fall down at the Bar. I protest before God I was all night so ill of the Cramp that I had no repose If you will have me go on I will if you will give me but a little time to recollect my self L. H. Steward God forbid when your Lordship is to speak upon so great a Concern and a matter of that importance as this is to you you should be put at the end of the day and in the midst of all your thoughts to sum up your Evidence I do believe if you do desire time till to Morrow my Lords will give it you And if you would have me move my Lords in it I will L. Stafford One word I beseech your Lordships Sir VVilliam Jones We do not oppose it L. Stafford My Lords I desire one thing I am very ignorant in this matter and do not understand it I would desire your Lordships directons to know in what method I must proceed L. H. Stew. Your Lordship is to proceed thus if you please Your Lordship is to recollect and recapitulate all the Proofs you have made and you are to enforce them as well as you can and make such Observations upon them as are for your own advantage and this your Lordship must do for the Fact If there remain a doubt in Law which you may have occasion to move Counsel may be demanded and if it be considerable and worthy of debate you may have Counsel heard to speak to it But the Process is closed no more Witnesses are to be heard There remains only Observations upon the Fact or Law to be made L. Stafford Are no more Witnesses to be heard L. H. Steward No I think not 't is agreed on both sides
I hope your Lordships will not alter the form for I hope you will keep that great Maxim of your Noble Ancestors Nolumus Leges Angliae mutare and whether this be a Change of the Law or no I submit it to your Lordships A third thing is this Your Lordships do not think fit that my Counsel shall plead to that Point whether Words do amount to an Overt Act for hearing my Counsel to that likewise I do not pretend but I hope your Lordships will give me leave to say this I never heard that Words did amount to an Overt Act if your Lordships judge otherwise I submit but till then I hope it shall not conclude me There were some other Points which I did offer to your Lordships and I humbly beseech you to know whether my Counsel shall be heard to them 't is true one of them which was whether two Witnesses in several places did amount to a legal Testimony or no your Lordships did not declare one way or another If you say you acquiesce in the Opinion of the Judges I must submit but till Judgment is given I beseech your Lordships to give me leave to tell you my weak thoughts about it I did not hear what the Judges said all of them but as I apprehend they were all of one Opinion 'T is true one of them that spoke last I think it was Judge Atkins did say it did amount to a legal Testimony because else those Juries that have found some Guilty upon the same sort of Evidence should be perjured but if this were not so then upon the same grounds under your Lordships favour those Juries that acquitted some upon such Testimony were perjured but I must believe it to be otherwise till your Lordships have declared it as your Opinion for that reason will not hold for the same reason will be for the perjuring the one as for the perjuring the other And the same Juries for the most part tryed those that were found guilty and those that were acquitted Lord High Steward Is this all your Lordship will please to say Lord Stafford No my Lords if you would give me leave I would trouble you a little farther if it were an Offence I would not say a word My Lords I do conceive I am not concerned in the general Plot of the Papists for I am not proved to be so and whatsoever I may be in my self as I conceive or whatsoever there is of hearsay I hope your Lordships will not go upon that but upon what is proved Secundum allegata probata and that common Fame will condemn no man if it do then no man is safe but I must say there is not one word of proof offered that I am a Papist I hope my Lords I have cleared my self to your Lordships and made my Innocency appear by making appear the perjury of the Witnesses and the falshood of those things they said against me Against Dugdale I have proved it by two of his own Witnesses the one was Eld the woman that swore for him That he took up a Glass of Cyder and wished that it might be his Poyson if he knew any thing of the Plot the other was Whitby who says he had given my Lord Aston's Father warning long ago what a Knave he was So 't is clear for Dr. Oats I hope from his Contradictions against himself as well as Dugdale who does contradict himself at one time August at another time the latter end of August or the beginning of September And I hope your Lordships will give no credit to Oats's Testimony for he said before your Lordships he had declared all he knew 't is true I was then accused but not for having a Commission as he now swears and afterwards he accused the Queen so here is Oats against Oats and Dugdale against Dugdale and for Turbervill I have proved by his Affidavit first he swears one thing and then another and the truth of it is his Brother proved him false in his last Oath that it was 7â— and not 72. My Lords 'T is not my part to make any Question nor do I whether a Plot or no Plot for I am not concerned in it If what I shall say now be impertinent I humbly beg your Lordships pardon My Lords I have been by the most of my Friends at least every one that came to me particularly by my Wife and Daughter that is near me persuaded to tell all that I knew and I do here in the presence of Almighty God declare what I know to be true Lord High Steward What says my Lord Speak out Lord Stafford My Lords I do believe since the Reformation from the Church of Rome to what it is now Established the Church of England those of that Religion have had several wicked and ill Designs and Plots I do believe they had a Design in Queen Elizabeth's time Babbington's Plot that is a long time ago how far it was to take away the Queens Life I can't tell but a Plot it was I do believe there was another in her time called Earl of Westmorland's Plot wherein there was a Rebeâ—â—ion in the North for which some fled and some were Executed that was a very ill design As for those poysonings of her Saddle and the like I take them to be but stories In King James's time in the first year of his Reign there was a wicked Plot composed by Actors some of one Religion some of another there was my Lord Grey my Lord Cobham my Lord Brooke and others such they were condemned all of them some fled as Markham and Bainham those Lords and Sir Walter Rawleigh were Reprived and kept long in the Tower But Sir Walter Rawleigh was afterwards upon that same Judgment Beheaded and the Lords dyed in the Tower My Lords Next to that was the Execrable Treason that I spoke of at first the Gun-powder-Treason And I protest before Almighty God I did from my Infancy detest and abhor those men that were engaged in it and I do think and always did think the Wit of Man nor the Devils Malice can't invent an Excuse for it For the men concerned they all acknowledged it confessed it and beg'd pardon of the King and God and all good men for it that is all I shall say to that now My Lords Since his Majesties happy Restauration I do conceive and I think I may safely say it for you all know it he was gracious and good to all Dissentersd particularly to them of the Romish Church they had Connivance and Indulgence in their private Houses and I declare to your Lordships I did then say to some that were too open in their Worship that they did play foul in taking more Liberty upon them than was fitting for them too and that brought the misfortune upon me which I will not name My Lordâ— it was not long ago that your Lordships at your own Bar did allow all the Dissenters from the Church of England
his right name or addition is likewise a just Cause to arrest the Judgment There is likewise another Question how far it may be valued I know not I submit it as I do all to your Lordships Though I am tried upon the Act of 25 Edw. 3 d. yet there is nothing more in that Act than what is included in the Act of the 13 th of this King And I humbly conceive my Lords by that Act and the last Proviso in it a Peer that is accused and found Guilty of the Crimes therein mentioned is to lose his Seat in Parliament those are the words and since 't is so put down in the Act it is so to be understood and that is all the punishment And I humbly demand your Lordships Judgment upon these points whether it be so or no And humbly demand your Lordships Judgments upon these Points whether it be so or no Lord High Steward Has your Lordship any more to say Lord Stafford No my Lords I submit to your Lordships and desire your Judgment in these Points Then the Lords adjourned into the Parliament Chamber and the Committee of Commons returned to their own House and the Speaker having reassumed the Chair the whole Body of the House went with their Speaker to the Bar of the House of Lords to demand Judgment of High Treason against William Viscount Stafford upon the Impeachment of the Commons of England in Parliament in the name of the Commons in Parliament and of all the Commons of England The Commons with their Speaker went back to their House Then the Lords took into consideration what Judgment was to be given upon William Viscount Stafford and it was moved that he might be beheaded After some debate the Judges were asked whether if any other Judgment than the usual Judgment for High Treason were given upon him it would attaint his Blood The Judges were of opinion that the Judgment for High Treason appointed by Law is to be drawn hanged and quartered and in the Courts and Proceedings below they can take no notice of any Judgment for High Treason but that Then Sir Creswell Levinz the Kings Attorney-General desired to be heard on his Majesties behalf which the House gave leave for him to be who said he knew no other Judgment by Law for High Treason but Drawing Hanging and Quartering if any other Judgment were given it would be prejudicial to His Majesty and be a Question in the inferiour Courts as to his Attainder of High Treason Whereupon their Lordships ordered That the Lord High Steward do pronounce the ordinary Judgment of Death upon the Lord Viscount Stafford as the Law hath appointed in Cases of High Treason And a Message was sent to the House of Commons from their Lordships by Sir Timothy Baldwyn and Sir Samuel Clark Mr. Speaker We are commanded by the Lords to acquaint this House That their Lordships are going presently into Westminster-Hall to give Judgment against William Viscount Stafford Mr. Speaker left the Chair The Committee of Commons appointed for the Management of the Evidence against the Prisoner with the rest of the Commons went into Westminster-Hall to the Court there erected to be present when the Lords gave Judgment of High Treason against him upon the Impeachment of the Commons of England After a short time their Lordships were adjourned into Westminster-Hall coming in their former Order into the Court there erected where being seated and the Lord High Steward being on the Wool-sack attended by Garter principal King of Arms the Usher of the Black Rod Eight of the Serjeants at Arms kneeling with their Maces the Ninth Macer making proclamation for Silence which being done the Lord High Steward gave Judgment upon the Prisoner as followeth Lord High Steward My Lord Stafford THat which your Lordship hath said in Arrest of Judgment hath been found by my Lords upon due Consideration had of it to be of no moment at all It is no Essential part of any Trial That the Prisoner should hold up his Hand at the Bar there is no Record ever made of it when it is done the only use of it is to shew the Court who the Prisoner is when that is apparent the Court does often proceed against him though he refuse to hold up his Hand at the Bar therefore the omission of that Ceremony in this Case is no legal Exception as all the Judges have declared And as to the Proviso's in the Statute of the 13th year of this King their Lordships do find that they are in no sort applicable to this Case forasmuch as the Proceedings against your Lordship are not grounded upon that Statute but upon the Statute of the 25. E. 3. And yet if the Proceedings had been upon the latter Statute the Proviso's therein could have done your Lordship no service at all My part therefore which remains is a very sad one for I never yet gave Sentence of Death upon any man and am extremely sorry that I must begin with your Lordship Who would have thought that a person of your Quality of so Noble an Extraction of so considerable Estate and Fortune so eminent a Sufferer in the late ill Times so interested in the Preservation of the Government so much obliged to the Moderation of it and so personally obliged to the King and his Royal Father for their particular Favours to you should ever have entred into so Infernal a Conspiracy as to contrive the Murder of the King the Ruin of the State the Subversion of Religion and as much as in you lâ—y the Destruction of all the Souls and Bodies in three Christian Nations And yet the Impeachment of the House of Commons amounts to no less a Charge and of this Charge their Lordships have found you Guilty That there hath been a General and Desperate Conspiracy of the Papists and that the Death of the King hath been all along one chief part of the Conspirators Design is now apparent beyond all possibility of doubting What was the meaning of all those Treatises which were publisht about two years since against the Oath of Allegiance in a time when no man dreamt of such a Controversie What was the meaning of Father Conyers's Sermon upon the same Subject but only because there was a Demonstration of Zeal as they call it intended against the Person of the King which the scruples arising from that Oath did somewhat hinder To what purpose were all the Correspondencies with Foreign Nations The Collections of Money among the Fathers abroad and at home What was the meaning of their Governing themselves here by such Advices as came frequently from Paris and Saint Omers And how shall we expound that Letter which came from Ireland to assure the Fathers here that all things were in a readiness there too as soon as the Blow should be given Does any man now begin to doubt how London came to be Burnt Or by what ways and means poor Justice Godfrey fell And is it not