woman being excused by ignorance yet compelled by the disciplinâ— of the Church his obedience excuseth him This is grosse and knowne adultery excused by these holy Catholicks false reason and erring conscience ruleth this kingdoÌ„e of darkenesse so shamefully If this be not libertinisme what is Alas why might not this fauour be shewed in Queene Maries daies that an erring conscience should excuse Why were men and women then compelled to doe contrary to their consciences which at worst must be granted to be erroneous consciences Nay see their partiality yet more for if one of their prelats command what a mans erring coÌ„science stardeth at then they say such a man ought to lay away that his conscience and obey his prelate And why not when God coÌ„mandeth should a man doe the like O blinde guides what doctrine is this if the commandement of an inferiour officer or magistrate bind not when the superiour as King or Emperour commandeth the contrary how may an erring conscience euer bind me against the Lord Gods booke is so farre from allowing this erring conscience and this preteÌ„sed knowledge that it onely alloweth good and suffereth not euill to be done that good may come of it M. Surely I see more harshnesse in the doctrine then I did before But on the other side to compell and force any body by lawes and penalty before the conscience be fully perswaded is it not as harsh and hard to S VVhere there is an honest plaine meaning to indeauour to be perswaded and resolued god forbidde but some time should bee graunted And I thinke it is so in all places But propound the matter thus whether a godly prince after a time giuen meanes graunted to be taught and instructed and after al gentlenes patience vsed his subjects refusing to be taught and contemning that gratious great fauour continuing still perveâ—sly and obstinately in Idolatrie and superstition whether I say then by lawes and punishments to compel theÌ„ to the true worship of God be so harde and harsh And then truth wil answer that it is not but iust godly and fit For not onely to maintaine publike peace is the sword giuen but also to see that God be serued according to his coÌ„mandements â—trieis cal â—amans â—â—tum that is both the tables are coÌ„mitted to him the breaches of both ought by him to be punished otherwise man should bee regarded more then God the lesser duties more then the greater In which holy and relious duty hath not the magistrate god for his patterne who after words of admonition giueÌ„ to his own elect deare children if they take no place coÌ„pelleth as it were by crosses rods of his fatherly loue to the bettering of their course leauing of euill Yea is not our own practise so with our own children if gentle admonition will not serue wherevpoÌ„ the saying spraÌ„ge he that spareth the rod hateth the child what shall we say to the Scriptures that are as plaine for the warraÌ„t of this matter as we need to desire did not Nabuchodonosor make a law that euery people nation and language which spak any blasphemy against the god of Sidrach c. should be drawn in peeces Dan. 3.29 their houses made a â—akes Darius also made another decree chap 6. In the book of Chronicles Asa destroieth Idolatry coÌ„mandeth his people to serue the true God 2. Chro. 14.14 yea he sweareth them and deposeth his mother for adulterie whose erroneous conscience was in all likelihood as stroÌ„g as any Papists for his popery In the book of Ezra we read that the king of Persia made a decree that the Iewes should build their temple that they should haue all things necessarie for their sacrifices that they might offer sweet odours vnto the God of heauen pray for the kings life the life of his sonns Also he made another law that whosoeuer should alter that sentence a penal statâ—â— the wood should be pulled down from his house and set vp and he hanged thereon his house made a dunghil for this Ezra 6.11 And the god that hath caused his name to dwell their saith that lawe destroy all kings and people that put their hand to alter and destroy this house of God which is in Hierusalem Idarius haue made a decree let it be done with speede After againe which I pray you good mother to marke authority is giuen to set iudges and arbiters which may iudge all the people that is beyond the riuer p. 7.25 euen al that knowe the lawe of God and to teach all that know it not and whosoeuer will not obey the law of God the kings lawe saith that statute let him haue iudgemeÌ„t without delay whether it be vnto death or punishment to confiscation of goodes or to imprisonment What lawe did euer any prince make more plaine without any regard to a pretended conscience wanting true grounde out of the law of god For if that might either then or nowe be allowed what lawe coulde holde against which he that list not to be reformed would not obiect his erroneous conscience VVhat gouernment could any prince in the world settle and establish Away therefore with this idle dreame of a pretended conscience and marke how neuer in any gouernment it was regarded after waies and meanes vsed for the reformation of it but euer subiected to the penaltie of the lawe beeing indeede an obstinacy both against god and prince worthy punishment In the newe testament is it not saide Luk. 14.23 Goe into the high vvaies anà compell to come in that my house my be full I forgotte to remember you of that lawe and penall statute made by the king of Ninive Ionah 3. which was so well liked of god but you may now thinke of it and adde it to the rest of the olde testament If we looke at practise Polonia Russia Lituania were forced at the commaundement of their rulers to forsake their auntient Idols Munst Cosm 4. p. 894.902 L. 3. p. 719.74 and to receiue baptisme Good princes also maintained long and sharpe warres to compell the Saxons and Vandals to the faith c. The lawes of this realme blessed be god force to nothing but what is directly prooued in scripture And the constraint is not outragious with fire and sword but tempered with mercy that is free from losse of life and limme such as the true Church of god neuer disliked and Christian princes alwaies vsed with great and good successe It is tempered also with good instruction to forsake error wherewith Christ is dishonoured and his trueth defaced Romish Catholicks revenge the smallest contempt of their idle ceremonies with vnsufferable torments Their prelats make it their occupation to persecute to death all sorts ages and Sexes which refuse their schoole-tricks or dregges of their Clementines or decretalls Howe then can they finde fault with any due compulsion full of mercy and profit to
newe teachers haue possest you mightily you are so carried away with them that they are able to make you beleeue any thing Why tell me the crowe is white or the snowe is blacke S. Good Mother the Lord hath mooued your heart to heare me speake who am yours and of you If I speake amisse as you thinke and so as you cannot consent vnto me with me leaue we it both to the working power of a mighty God who in further time can giue further light and vnderstanding to his children that humbly craue it and are not lifted vp with an high hand to withstand his offered grace Onely according to this motherly loue that you haue began to shew me vouchsafe to here me still vpon what groundes I haue setled my selfe and with what proofe I am mooued to thinke as I doe M. Surely sonne I coulde not abide or indure to heare any other once speake of such a straunge thing as this but say you on what you list you are my childe S. I doe verely beleeue it seemeth most straunge to you and to many moe of your side to heare that your religion is newe and ours olde Yet I doubt not but to make it evidently apparent vnto you and all whosoeuer shall without preiudice duly consider my allegations and proofe But first I must interpret my selfe in a worde or two what I meane by your faith and religion I pray you therefore when I speake of your Romish religion thinke not that I meane the whole doctrine and all the articles of faith and religion taught and professed by the Papists but onely those points of doctrine wherein they differ from vs. For in generall they hold the doctrine of the lawe and tenne commandements as we doe sauing that they leaue out the second commandement which forbiddeth the worshipping of Idols and Images making two of the tenth they professe also the summe of the gospell at least in generalitie and in wordes to wit that Christ Iesus perfect God and perfect man hath wrought our full redemption and by the blood of his crosse and pretious death prrfect obedience hath deliuered vs from eternall death the fierch and euerlasting wrath of God the due desert of our transgressions and purchased for vs euerlasting peace and blisse they maintaine also and professe in wordes as we also doe the three creedes the Nicene the Athanasian and the Apostolike creede wherein is comprised the summe of our faith and the doctrine we professe they acknowledge that most excellent forme and paterne of prayer taught vs in the gospel by our Sauiour and vse it and many other good and godly prayers which we also vse euen all those vvelneere in our common liturgie except a very fevve for our most gratious Queene sauing that they vse theÌ„ in latin vve in english that all may vnderstand and say amen Wherefore vvhen I say that your religion is nevv meane not generally nor of the things before rehearsed but only in respect of certeÌ„ other articles and points of religion maintained by Romish catholikes as namely 1. that the traditioÌ„s of the church are of equall authority vviâ—h the vvorde of god to be embraced with like reuerence and deuotion 2. that the vulgar latin translation commonly called Hieromes is onely authenticall 3. that the imputation of Christs righteousnes and obedience to the faithfull is a fantasie without ground in Gods word 4. that the bread in the sacrament of the Eucharist transubstantiated into the body of Christ is to be adored 5. that the faithfull are able to keepe the whole lawe of God 6. that the Pope is Christs generall vicar vpon earth hauing absolute power to ratifie or disanull all manner of decrees and ordinances and to dispense with the expresse and moral precepts of God at his pleasure 7. That the whole Church without him can neither enact nor infringe any lawe ecclesiasticall nor interpret any scripture 8. that the holy scriptures ought not to be translated into any vulgar tongue or reade of the lay people 9. that the sacrament of the Lords supper is to be administred onely in bread and not in wine Quia sapor possit generate suspitionem quòd esset ibi â—inum least as the Sorbonists at Paris say the people should smell it to be wine and so doubt of transubstaÌ„tiatioÌ„ 10. that good works are meritorious and that by them we are iustified in the sight of God 11. that the soules of the faithfull dying before perfect repentance suffer the torments of purgatory 12. that prayers are to be made in an vnknowen tongue such like of al which and the rest wherein they disagree from vs I say they are newe and yesterday opinions in comparison of the faith which we hold consonant to the holy scriptures and those famous ancient creeds before mentioned And therefore now to proceede to the declaration of that which I haue vndertaken touching the noueltie of your faith Thus good Mother haue our men written at this day teach that it goeth not with Religion as it doth with the statutes of the realme iudgements at common law where the later is thought to be the better but in religion the first and eldest is best Therefore they euer remember that golden saying of Tertullian that is true which was first that is first which was from the beginning and that was from the beginning which was deliuered by the Apostles but our faith is that was deliuered by the Apostles yours is not therfore ours is froÌ„ the beginning and so first yours not and therefore later Now that ours is that which was deliuered by the Apostles they prooue it thus Another ancient father saith That which the Apostles preached and deliuered to the world by preaching Irenaeus they afterward by the will of God committed to writing that for euer it might be the foundation and ground of faith Wherevpon it followeth that which the Apostles preached is the old auncient Catholike and Apostolike saith but that which they haue written is that which they preached so saith this father therfore that which is written is the true auncient Catholike and Apostolike faith that is ours For as I haue saide we hold nothing as necessarie to salvation but that which is truly taught vs out of these written scriptures Therefore our faith is that which was deliuered by the Apostles your faith is not that which is written For your men wil not be tried by the scriptures onely as knowing that many things they hold haue no warrant there but haue deuised vnwritten traditions therefore yours is not that which was deliueeed by the Apostles and not the old faith but a late newe faith devised by men M VVhy that which was deliuered by tradition Tradition was deliuered by the Apostles as wel as that which they wrot S. True Mother if it could as soundly appeare vnto vs what they deliuered as it doth by their writings what they preached But
time of vengeance The Lord vvill giue thee a penny saith S. Austen though thou come but at the eleuenth hovvre but yet he hath not promised thee to live to the second hovvre noting the vncertainty of our life not to be presumed vpon one moment of an howre tu ergò quò quando vocaris veni thou therefore saith he come vvhither thou art called and vvhen thou art called come come without any longer stay or any moe ifs and ands or consultations with flesh and blood It is thy God that calleth who allowed not him to goe bury his father or to salute his friendes that sought that delay but required forthwith Follow thou me Zacheus when the Lord said vnto him come dovvne for I will dine with thee came dovvne hastely and receiued him ioyfully which God in mercy make vs euer to doe Whose image and superscription is vpon you euen vpon your bodie and vpon your soule is it not Gods ô giue then vnto God that which is Gods your owne selfe to your own sweete and good God and see the comfort of it Lord strengthen Lord help for thy sonnes sake M. Amen sonne and god giue satisfaction in our consciences euer to choose what is right in his eyes For conscience is truely called the bird in my breast that would not be troubled S. True satisfaction of conscience mother is a good thing and euer to be laboured for But I beseech you marke howe greatly this word is abused when fancy and will are called conscience Now a daies let it be asked of any recusant as we call them why he or shee goeth not to Church the common answere is forsooth my conscience will not let me or It is my conscience c as though euery toy that I take in my head were by and by conscience Aske them further why their conscience will not let them either they cannot or will not answere but thinke they haue said enough when they haue named once the word Conscience Alas we knowe that true conscience hath a ground and reason out of Gods word as when I say my conscience will not suffer me to kill a man and you aske me why I readily answere because it is written Thou shalt not kill and so in all other matters forbidden disalowed by almightie God which if they could doe either in this matter of comming to Church or in any other point of obedience commanded by her Maiestie and the lawe of this land then might they talke of conscience and make scruple with authoritie because we must obey God rather then man But this beeing not so forasmuch as nothing is inioyned them that is contrarie to the worde therefore this conscience of theirs is but fancy wilfull obstinacy and disobedience which the Lord will punish for we are plainely taught that euerie soule ought to be subiect to the higher powers there is no power but of God m. 13 1â— and the powers that be are ordained of God and they that resist shall receiue to themselues damnation all beeing bound to be subiect not for feare of wrath onely but also for conscience sake For humane lawes enacted of things that be good in themselues that is commaunded of God properly are not humane but diuine lawes and therefore binde conscience not because they were enacted by man but because they were first made by God men beeing no more but instruments and ministers in his name to reviue renewe and put in execution such precepts and lawes as prescribe the worship of God standing in the practise of true religion and vertue and the man or woman that breaks such lawes sinneth two waies first because he breakes that which in nature and conscience is the lawe of God secondly because in disobeying his lawfull magistrate he disobeyeth the generall commandement of God touching magistrats M. You wil haue coÌ„science then euer grouÌ„ded vpon Gods word S. Yf it be a right conscience I say it must needes be so For it is called Conscientia quasi cum scientiâ or as some thinke quasicordis scientia as if you should say with science and knowledge or the knowledge of the heart Now true knowledge what pleaseth or displeaseth God must needes be out of his word because therein onely his will is manifested vnto vs Againe the actions of the conscience saith the Apostle are in accusing and excusing which needes must haue relation to the word For how can conscience iustly accuse me but because the thing I doe is condemned of God or howe can it excuse me but because my deedes by gods worde which is his will are iustifiable Conscience therefore without direction of gods word cannot giue true iudgement either to iustification or condemnation Whatsoeuer therefore is done with an erroneous conscience we see plainely is sinne for euill remaineth euill though conscience say the contrary a thousand times and so doth good remaine good As if a man come into an house in the darke where many thinges are out of order which yet for the darkenesse he seeth not to be so are they not therfore out of order because he seeth them not The like may be saide on the other side where all things are passing well and yet he seeth it not Conscience therefore is a guid to me and the word of God a guide to my conscience which if it were marked and grounded in our hearts o how would we tremble to be so ignorant of Gods word as often we are and to doe as we doe and say as we say This makes vs to runne headlong with good intents whereas no good intention is sufficient to make any worke good vnlesse withal conscience approoue my action which it can neuer rightly doe but by giuing iudgement that God approoueth it This makes vs bolde to worship God with mans inuentions â—ay 29. â—3 â—ark 7.7 not considering that such deuises are meere sinnes because conscience cannot say of them according to her rule that they please God Finally as one saith with a godly desire to awake vs. This maketh mans life flowe euen with a sea of offences against God men commonly thinking that if they keepe themselues from periury blasphemy murder theft whordome all is well with them But the trueth is so long as they liue in ignorance they want true and right direction out of Gods word and therefore their best actions are sinnes euen their eating and drinking their sleeping and waking their buying and selling their speech and sileÌ„ce yea their praying seruing of God For they doe these actions either of custome or example or necessity as beasts doe and not of faith because they knowe not gods will touching things to be done or left vndone Wherefore the due coÌ„sideration hereof should make euery man most carefull to seeke for knowlede of Gods word and daily to increase in it that he may in all his affaires haue gods lawes to be the men of his councell that he may giue heede to them as to a lantarne
vnto his feete and a light vnto his pathes So shall conscience be a sure guide and he reforme himselfe by true obedience both to God and man Otherwise as I haue saide what we call conscience is but a fancie a conceit and a false erroneous perswasion such as if we still will follow against God against prince against countrie and all that euer any gouernours or friendes can say vnto vs the daie will come when wee shall feele with woe the punishment of such obstinacy and true conscience shall witnesse the want of conscience in so proudly disobeying all good perswasions which God forbid in his great mercy and turne our hearts in time vnto his trueth M. But I take it there is a plaine scripture that who so doth a thing which in his heart he thinketh he should not doe committeth deadly sinne because he doth against his own conscience or against his owne pretensed knowledge S. Good mother the scripture you mean as I conceiue is written in the 14 chapter of the Epistle to the Romans where the blessed Apostle saith He that doubteth is condemned if he eate because he eateth not of faith and what soeuer is not of faith is sinne Which place little helpeth any popish ignorance or stubburne wilfullnesse but is greatly by Romish Catholickes abused and wrested as other scriptures to serue for their way wardnesse Concerning which text thus haue our men truely and godlily answered long agoe and often first that the Apostle speaketh there of a particular and certaine matter papists applying these wordes generally to whatsoeuer they doe contrary to their erroneous conscience or pretensed knowledge 2. that the particular matter which the Apostle speaketh of is a thing indiffereÌ„t wheras Papists apply the wordes to things simply good and simply euill saying the former may be left vndone if my erring conscience be against it the later done without sinne if my pretensed knowledge lead me to it 3. That the things which the Apostle speaketh of were such as God himselfe was author of in his lawe as distinction of meate and daies which whilst the Iewes wonne to the Gospel did in those daies retaine though they did it ignorantly not knowing the libertie of the Gospell yet till they might be fully perswaded therein by faith which is grounded on doctrine and on the word they were bound to keepe by the commandement of God himselfe 4. That the manner and end of the Apostles bearing is not to nourish errour or to harden such an one in his opinion and doing but by patience to drawe him to trueth in the ende which manner of tolerance the Apostle calleth edification vers 19. and chap. 15.2 Lastly the Apostle speaketh not of Gentiles infidels nor of stubburn Christians but of a brother a faithfull man and one that hath receiued and embraced the profession of the Gospell but is weake through ignorance of some one point pertaining to Christian liberty in the outward vse of Gods creatures wherein he is not throughly perswaded of instructed of bearing with such an one by those whome God hath called to more plentifull knowledge of his heauenly trueth speaketh he All which things duly considered the true sence of the place appeareth thus namely that the faithfull for his particular regard beeing in doubt or lacking the full perswasion of faith which is giuen by measure and hath his time of groweth and increasing cannot without danger and therefore ought not attempt to do that wherein he is not already by the word of God and faith fully and throughly resolued But mark this double caution first that his absteining from the outward action be without danger of offence and scandall secondly that he stand not stiffâ—ly in his owne opinion flattering himselfe therein but ready vpon further instruction and knowledge to grow forward and to profit yea desirous also of such instruction and whatsoeuer other meanes may help to the better informing of his conscieÌ„ce in that behalfe whereby he may both clearely see the thing doubted of to the good holy and lawfull do the same with all sincerity faithfullnes M. But what if without daÌ„ger of offending God and prince I caÌ„not abstaine from the outward action and yet doubt in my selfe S. Your obedience beeing due it lesse offendeth to commit one fault then two that is to doe what you ought though doubtingly then both do doubt and disobey The doubting is a fault the obedience is none Amend what is euill by better instruction withdraw not what is good and due by all right He is condemned saith the Apostle if he eate not because he eteth but because he eateth not of faith In a lawefull action therefore it is not the deed which offendeth but the doubting that is not the matter but the manner performe obedience with a single heart and God in meane shall blesse it with true resolution M. Doth not then an erroneous conscience binde S. It may be borne withall for a time in charitable regard of weakenesse and in hope of better instruction but God forbidde that it should still binde and bee a couer or excuse for wilfull waywarde and malitious disobedience 2. Thes 2. 1. Tim. 4. For then to bee giuen ouer to a strong delusion to beleeue lies is not such a iudgement as the Apostle maketh it neither yet to haue the conscience feared with an hotte iron 2. Tim. 1.19 It is not right which the Apostle teacheth that vpon the putting away of a good conscience their followeth any shipwracke of faith or that the wicked haue their very mindes and consciences defiled 1. Tit. 1. For if the colour of such a conscience binde excuse and saue harmeles how is it defiled can that which is defiled it selfe make cleane any action But ô miserable doctrine that false reason should be made a guide to will and we bound to followe so blinde a guide The very heathen philosophers were not so madde For they talke of recta ratio and of mens sana in corpore sano of right and true reason and of a sound minde in a sounde body c. A Iewe sinneth mortally say these Catholike teachers if coÌ„â—ratrary to his pretensed knowledge or against his erroneous conscience he acknowledge in Trinitie Iesus Christ the second person yea the Iewes had sinned mortally if they had not crucified Christ according to their erring consciences Againe to beleeue in Christ if false reason propound it as euill is euill yea to worship the deuill beeing deceiued by the same reason is not onely not a sinne but a good worke O Catholike doctrine Then for the second table if a man leauing his wife and going into another countrie marry another and after repenting himselfe would leaue her affirming his former wife to be aliue and the Church suffer him not beeing ignorant of the trueth of that his assertion although this latter marriage bee nought and the man consequently an adulterer Deare mother marke this stuffe the
all that be not malitiously froward yea all of them both Clergie and laity promised in baptisme to hold this faith therefore they may be compelled to performe their promise Gratian Theodosius Arcadius Honorius and other Christian princes with conuenient sharpnes of positiue lawes amerced banished and diuersly punished heretickes And these coactions when the Donatists railed on them with open mouth S. Augustin defended and commended writing to Vincentius thus Thinkest thou saith he that no man ought to the forced vnto righteousnes â—pist 49. wheÌ„ thou readest that the master said to his seruaÌ„ts compest them to come in and also that Paul was forced by losse of his eies a greater punishment then losse of landes and goodes Markâ— Christ here first compelling after teaching striking then comforting Let them not mislike that they are forced but examine whereto they are forced How doe kings saith he serue the Lord in feare but when they forbid and punish with religious seuerity those things that are done against the commandement of God as Hezekiah did by destroying the groaues and temples built against the precepts of God as did Iosiah the king of Niniveh Nabuchodonosor c. S. Ambrose saith Quoniam futurum iudicium Deus statuit nullum perire vult hoc in seculo rectores ordinauit vt terrore interposito omnibus velut paedagogi sint in epist ad Rom. c. 13. ne in paenam incidaÌ„t futuri iudicei For asmuch as God hath appointed a future and finall iudgement in the vvorld to come and vvould not that any should perish he hath ordained rulers in this present worlde to be as it were schoolemasters to all to keepe them through terrour that they incurre not the penaltie of the iudgement to come Thus we see scripture reason practise fathers all allowing compulsion of an erroneous conscience or pretensed knowledge which surely is enough to any moderate mind desiring satisfactioÌ„ in true simplicitie and not making couers for vngodly obstinacie in subtile hypocrisy M. Sonne your answeres are so reasonable that I will still obiect to heare your answeres What if I say God hath made vs free therefore there is no reason any should be compelled S. Then will I answere Good Mother that euen our first parentes who had freewill had also both a lawe giuen them of God and a penaltie added to the same if they should transgresse it much more now then may the like be done when we haue both loste our selues and our freewill to vse the wordes of S. Austin By no lawe is the will compelled for that still is either free or it looseth his name of will But men according to their bodies may be forced as well to keepe the commandements of the first table concerning dutie to God as the commandements of the second table concerning dutie to men M. But againe I vvill say this maketh men hypocrites when outwardly they doe that which in their hearts they mislike S. And againe I answere that the drift of the magistrate is not to make them hypocrits but by these meanes to drawe them willingly to doe that which thy are enioyned And if it be not so that is their fault not the magistrates So did God with Ionas Paul and others So saith S Augustin of his owne cirtie fallen to Donatisme ug contr audenâ—â— epiâ—â—m l. 2. c. 17. that by outvvard lavves they were brought to invvard knovvledge and so he saw the benefit of this course that the sword should raigne with the word although at first he saith it vvas his opinion that none should be compelled before he vvere perswaded And S Chrysostome saith Multi sunt qui cùm virtutem primùm respectu magistratus exercuerunt posted etiam illam propter Dei timorem amplectuntur a Spist ad 〈◊〉 c. 13. Many men vvhereas at first they be haue themselues vertuously in regard of the magistrate and for feare of punishment afterwarde doe it gladly euen for feare of God and in reuerence of his maiestie VVe see the iudgement of this holy father that compulsion by the magistrate is necessarie and profitable though at first it procure but externall obedience and his reason which followeth is very good Crassiores enim saith he non adeo futura tangunt atque praesentia ibidem for carnall men are not so much touched vvith future as present thinges that is as I vnderstand him the torments of hell in the world to come doe not so much preuaile with them as the punishment of the Magistrate presently to be inflicted vpon them And that Epistle of S. Augustin is most worthie often reading his 48 epistle M. Yet forced Religion pleaseth not God S. Surely it lesse displeaseth with one part to doe my duty then with both partes to offend To come to Church with my bodies where by Gods grace I may be caught as S. Augustin was at S. Ambrose his sermon then both with bodie and mind to disobey not only prince but God A part of my duty is something though it be not all M. The magistrate cannot giue faith therefore he should not compell to faith S. He doth not compell to faith but to the meanes whereby God vseth to giue saith namely to hearing for faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God which howe profitable it may be by Gods mercy hath beene alreadie said and the words of Dauid shewe when he saith It is good for me that I haue beene in trouble c. and the words of Ieremy Castigasti Castigatus sum thou hast chastned me and I haue beene chastned The words of Esay Vexatio dat intellectum Vexation and trouble vvorke vnderstanding The wordes of wise Salomon Da sapienti occasionem sapientior erit giue a wise man occasion and he vvill be vviser M. Why then did not Christ coÌ„pell any S. Christ was no magistrate and we speake of the Magistrate and what he may doe by his office and authority giuen him by God M. Surely Sonne great is trueth and prevaileth I will trouble you no further in this matter S. I will then deare mother shut it vppe with S. Augustins wordes to the Donatists Non bene facere legibus cogimini sed malè facere prohibemini Nam bene facere nemo potest nisi elegerit c. You are not compelled by lawes to doe well but you are forbidden and hindered to doe euill For no man can doe well vnlesse he vvillingly doe it Timor autem paenaruÌ„ cisi nondum habeat dilectionem bonae conscientiae saltem intra claustra cogitationis coercet malam cupiditatem And the feare of punishmeÌ„t although it haue not as yet the loue of good conscience yet at least it restraineth euill within the hidden cogitation Numquid quia mores optimi libertate voluntatis eliguntur contra Petil. l. 2. c. 83. ideò mores pessimi non legis integritate puniuntur Because good manners are chosen by freedome of will therefore are not ill manners punished
by integritie of lawe In a worde Aliter non persequimur vos nisi quemadmodum veritas persequitur falsit atem We persecute you no otherwise but as trueth persecuteth falshood namely to saluation not to destruction M. Surely your answeres I must confesse are farre otherwise then either I looked for at your handes or thought coulde haue beene giuen in your cause Wherefore I say againe we on our side are greatly wronged when we are forbidden to read your bookes or to conferre with you But yet if some learned man were here to dispute with you happely he would contrarie this which to me seemeth plaine S. Surely mother euen this also which you name is a good point be touched For indeede it is an vsuall shift of men and women thus giuen to say I cannot answere you but if such and such were here they would and would God we might haue some disputation then should wee see which part were better Yea such bragges are made by some learned of your side to blinde the eyes of the people as if either there neuer had bin triall of their streÌ„gth this waie or as if they alwaies had had the vpper hand in disputation when God knoweth and the world can witnesse herein their weaknes and great foiles to the glorie of God and victory of his truth in the hearts of many thousandes both men and vvomen For confirmation whereof let me remember you of the disputation at Berne in Heluetia in king Henry the 8 his daies which is thus published in Chronicle to the worldes knowledge There was in ☞ the yeare of our Lord 1527. in the moneth of december order taken by the senate and people of Berne whose power amongst all the Switzers chiefly excelleth in regard of the varience of religion that then was and still more more increaseth that there should be a publike disputation in that cittie and to that ende they sent forth writings of the same and called thither all the Bishops bordering neere about them as the bishop of Constance Basil Sedune Lausanna warning them to come both themselues and to bring with them their devines or els to loose all such professions as they had lying within the boundes of their precinct They also appointed learned men amoÌ„gst them preachers of the Gospell to be readie to dispute against all commers in defence of their doctrine prescribing the disputation to be decided onely by the authority of the olde and newe testament They graunted safe conduct to all that would come They appointed likewise that all things should be done modestly without iniurie and brawling words and that euery one should haue leaue to speake his minde freely and with such deliberation that euerie mans saying might be receiued by the notarie and penned And to the end men might come thither better prepared they caused their ministers to publish such questions as they should dispute on before hand in writing that euery man might studie to say what he coulde against them and they were tenne in number 1. The true Church riseth out of Gods worde continueth in the same and heareth the voice of none other 2. The true Church maketh no lawes without the word 3. Traditions binde not but as firre as they are agreeable to the written word 4. Christ onely hath satisfied for the sinnes of the vvorld and therefore if any make any other waie the same denieth Christ 5. The body and blood of Christ cannot be receiued really and corporally by the testimony of scripture 6. There is no place of purging after this ☞ life and therfore all dirges prayers ceremonies lampes tapers c. bestowed for the dead profitte nothing 7. Christ onely is to be prayed vnto as the mediator of mankind to God the father 8. The masse is wicked and derogatory to Christs sacrifice offered for vs. 9. Images ought not to be set vp in Churches and praied vnto 10. Marriage is allowed by God vnto all degrees These things I say thus agreed vpon before hand were sent abroad to al places and the day appointed the 7 of Ianuarie for the disputation to beginne At which day nowe see the courage of Catholicks not one of the bishops before named came neuerthelesse the citty of Basil Zuricke Schasuse Abbacelle Sangallium Mallusia with the neighbours of Rhetia also they of Strawsburge Vlmes Ausburge Lindaue Constance and Isue sent thither their Embassadours The doctors of Berne began the disputation whereat were present Zuinglius Oecolampadius Bucerus Capito and Blaurecus with others One the other side of them that were opponents the chiefe was Conzadus and Tregerus a frier Augustine who no way able to prooue his cause out of the olde and newe testament as was appointed and decreed at first desired that he might alledge Doctours which the moderators refusing to graunt because it was contrarie to the order appointed he to his great shame and to the preiudice of all his side departed out of the place and would dispute no more The disputation endured 19. daies and in the ende by the greater part of that assembly the protestantes hadde the victorie and the Papists the foile And it was agreed vpon that the themes before mentioned were all true and agreeable to Gods holy worde that they shoulde be ratified and proclaimed according to promise and that masses altars images c. should in all places be abolished So they were at Constance Berne and Geneva they causing the day and yeare of this reformation from poperie to Christianity to be ingrauen in a pillar with golden letters for a perpetuall memorie to all posteritie This was anno 1528. After the rumour of this disputation Reformation followed at Strawsburge Basil and other places to Gods great glorie the comfort of his people the true witnessing to the world what strength Romish Catholicks haue in disputation when they are desired to keepe to the scriptures which onely is the ground of trueth and conscience I may not repeat others at large but blessed be God the like triall of them was made and the like foile giuen them at Wittenberge and Ravensburge at Ausburge at Spire at Wormes at Pois and here in England at London at Cambridge at Oxford and in private houses and consistories of Bishops often That notable seruice of Beza at Pois gone through the worlde when the Cardinall of Lotharinge wished that either Beza had beene dumme or they his auditours and aduersaries deaâ—e will witnesse for euer what pith popish falshood hath had against Christian trueth held and taught by protestants wheÌ„ they came to disputation Reade our owne Chronicles of the cowardly refusall of the popish Bishops to dispute at the happy entrance of her Maiesty to the Crowne howe also they behaued theÌ„selues in Queene Maries time when one of them said vve had the word but they had the sword c. Indeede indeede the sword and the fire are their best arguments and in blood they build whatsoeuer they build Neuer neuer therefore let them