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A91891
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The peoples plea for the exercise of prophesie. Against master John Yates his monopolie / by Iohn Robinson.
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Robinson, John, 1575?-1625.
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1641
(1641)
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Wing R1696; Thomason E1093_1; ESTC R208638
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39,795
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82
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more excellent yet â—â— is more profitable it being most plaine that the Apostle prefer prophesie before tongues because it tends more tâ— edification of the Church according to which respect alone wee are to measure the excellency oâ— Church ordinances and so to frame the obiect oâ— our desire unto them But what speake I of more excellent and more to edification since the strange tongues as there used without an interpreter were so far from being comparible to ordinary prophesie for any good end or used as they were on the contrary most vaine and rediculous as appeares ver. 11 22. 23. That then which he brings for the commendation of tongues from Actes 2. is nothing for tongues as used in Corenth The former were as of simple necessity in themselues unto the Apostles for spreading of the Gospell unto all nations so then â— there profitably used but in Corinth ambitiâ—ly and profanely abused which M. Yates should â—e observed but hath not in his comparison Lastâ—â— add as aiust answer to whatsoever he hath obâ—ted That tongues considered in themselves how â—htly soever used are not comparible for use and â—or excellency vnto ordinary prophesying or preaâ—ng considered in it self seing that by it as well by extraordinary saying faith is wrought Rom. 10 â—â—ich none can say of strange Tongues in themâ—ves without a strange Tongue both from truth â—d sence no nor of any other spirituall gift And as it doth not appeare by the Apostles preâ—ring of prophesie before tongâ—es that therefore â—â— prophesie was extraordinary so it appeare unâ— mee by the Corinthians preferring of tongues â—forâ— it that it was but ordinary therefore disâ—arded by them in comparison of the extraordinaâ— and miraculous gift of tongues whereas had it â—o been extraordinary immediate and miraculous â—ost like it would have caried with it the like with â—â— other or greater regard in their eyes M. Yates ARGVM 6. â—ROM exemplification ver. 6. if I come unto â—ouâ— â— I hope you will grant that the Apostle Paul had all those spirituall gifts and therefore speaking of sâ— prophesie as he had himselfe he must needs speak of â—traordinary likewise he had the knowledge of tongâ— and yet prefers prophesie before all his languages thouâ— hee speake more then they â—â—â— Now the example in â— own person must needs seâ— forâ—â— he generall and therfore if in the generall â—â— sâ—â—â—lâ— speak of ordinary prophâ—sying and in the particulâ—r of extraordinary it woâ— prove idle for an example is of the sâ—me kinde wâ— the generall Again in bringing foure particulers he pâ— revelation first as the causâ— of all the rest which showâ— plainly he speaks of such prophesâ—e â—â— câ—me by revelatiâ— for revelation brings â—â—â—n to knowledge and knowledâ— teacheth wholsome 〈…〉 and prophesie serveth to â—ter it I. ROB. ANSWER I Do plainely deny the ground upon which â— builds the whole weight of his argument which â— that the example and the thing exemplified must â— of the same kind How oft doth Christ exemplifâ— the sufferings of his disciples by his owne suffâ—rings and the sending of his Apostles by his fatheâ— sending of him were they therfore of the same kinâ— their sufferings meritorious and their sendinâ— mediatorious because his was such But amongst other evidences against him wherewith all writingâ— divine and humane are stored see one fitly paringâ— with this in hand The Apostle provoking the Galâ—thians â— 1 unto iust detestation of such as preached aâ—ther Gospel amongst them takes an example from â—s owne preaching ves 8. But though wee or an â—ngell from heaven preach another Gospell unto yov â—n that which we have preached vnto yov let him be acâ—rsed As if he should say I have preached vnto you â—rmerly iustification by faith without the works of â—e Law of Moses they now preach vnto you iustifiâ—ation by the works of the law ioyned with Christ â—c He exemplifieth their preaching by his were â—ey therefore of one kind both Apostolicaâ— becavse â—auls was such It is sufficient for an example if it â—gree with the thing which it is brought to exemâ—lifie in that for which it is brought And so the â—omming of Christ to iudgement is by the Apostle â—xemplified by the comming of a thief in the night â— Thess. 5. Are therefore their commings of the â—me kind or is it not sufficient that being most â—ontrary in their kinds they do yet agree in the adâ—nct of suddenesse So is it sufficient if Pauls exâ—â—aordinary Prophesying and the Corinthians orâ—inary agree in the adiunct or effect of profitableâ—esse or edification which thing alone the Apostle â— his exemplification hath respect unto His obserâ—ation about Revelation seems true and good in it â—elfe but shews not plainely that for which he brings â— no nor hath so much as a plaine shew for it For â—hat shew hath it of proof that he speaks of extraordinary prophesie because it comes from revelation except he takes it for granted that there is in the Church no revelation of the spirit for teaching buâ— extraordinary or miraculous which how can I graâ— or he assirme Of this more Argum. 8. M. Yates ARG. 7. FROM the fruition of spirituall gifts 1 Cor. 14 2. 6. hath a Psalme that is some admirable praise oâ— God or doctrine that is some worthy point of instruction or a tongue that is can speak misteries with admiration or revelations of some secrets either for doctriâ—â— or prediction lastly or interpretation whether of tonâ—uesâ— doctrines or Scripture all these must needs bee had either by the ordinary païnes of the Church or by the extraordinary gift of the spirit you say by the one and â— by the other and that I agree more with the scriptuâ—â— then your selfe consider but the distinction â— the gifts and their admirable matter A Psalme must needs consist of meeter which required art to compose â—â— Secondly it could not for the matter of it but sound forth some worthy praise of God Do you think the corinthianâ— did study the art of musick or likewise read some admirable divine books to find out sweete matter to make their songs of Alas brother give God the glory it was no doubt some sudden motion of the spirit that did inflame the hearts of beleevers with some worthy matter of praising God Doctrine that is laid downe by our ordinary paines is that we usualy give vnto Doctors which after long study and reading the Scriptures is drawne unto some profitable heads pithily proved and contrary errours refuted by it I thinke in Corinth there were none of these Doctors and yet I doubt not but they were as excellent for such Doctors as delivered these Doctrines had them after â— more easie manner even the immediate worke of the spirit I hope with out any further dispute you will yeeld â—hat the having of a strange tongue was extraordinary aâ—â—ikewise the revelation and interpretation I. Rob. ANSW NOt to meddle with his description of a Psalm Doctrine
with the rest Iohn 20. 22 23. 1 Now if the commission Apostolike were but tâ—â— giuen they were but then not before actually â—postles except he will say they were Apostles beâ—â— they had commission that is calling from Christ to bee I would now see how hee can salue â— wound which he hath given himselfe 2 After that the Lord Iesus had Mat. 11. 11. pâ—ferred Iohn Baptist aboue all the Prophets whiâ— were before him he yet adds in the same place thâ—the least in the Kingdom of heauen is greater then â—â— The least that is the least Minister In the kingdom â— heauen that is in the church of the new testameÌ„t prâ—porly called which began not till after the death â— Christ who liuâ—d and dyed a member of the Iewiâ—â—urch the Apostles then being officers of the â—urch of the new testament and Kingdom of heaâ—â— and not of the old or Iewish Church it cannot â—â— that they were Apostles in act before Christ â—ath except an adiunct can be before the subject â—d an officer before the corporation in of which is an officer â— Considering the ignorance of these disciples at â—â— time in the maine misteries of Christ of the naâ—e of his kingdom his death and â—eâ—urâ—ection â—at 20. 21. Luk. 24. 20. 21. c. â—ohâ— 20. 9. Mar. â— 14. as also how utterly 〈…〉 they were gifts befitting Apostâ—lâ—cal teaching for which â—eing an extraordâ—nary dispensotion and that in â— highest degree extraordâ—nary infallible revela direction of the spirit was â—equisit wher with â—â—y were but first â—s it seemetâ— â—pâ—inckled John â— and afterwards more plentifully filled at the day Pentecost they were as fit for an Apostleship as â—â—vid was for Sauls armour which he could not â—eild nor goe wiâ—h 4. Besides if they had the office of Apostleship â—mmitted to them Mat. 10. how was it that they â—ntinued not their ministration in that office but â—â—rning after a few dayes to their master continuâ— with him as his disciples till his death Christ Ieâ— did not keepe a company of none-residents about â—m for his Chaplins as M. Yates insinuates against â—â— Lastly we are expresly taught Eph. 4. 8. 11. â— Christ â—sâ—ended on high he gaue gifts unto men Apoâ— Prophets c. The Apostles then were first giuen â—tually at the Lords ascension and Were before oâ— designed to become Apostles or Apostles â—lect â— not ordained nor possessed of any office and therfore preached and that with warrant from Chrâ— without office The next Scripture is Luk. 8. 39. by M. Yâ— thus opened Christ hauing deliuered the man possessâ—â—ids him go and shew what great things God had â— for him and it is sayd he went and Preached that is â— be to their purpose by ordinary paines and study he prâ—â—ched the Gosple And with pitty upon us poore soâ— that cannot distinguish the publishing of amiracle â— the gift he should say the work if he distinguish as he ought of preaching he addeth that if â—â—â— had minded to haue made him a publike preacher he â— first have taken him with him and instructed him â— then haue sent him abroad 1. Let it be obserued that the word used by Mâ— for his preaching {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} is the same word which commonly used for the most solemne preachiâ— that is by the Apostles and Euangelists Secondâ— Christ bids him Mar. 5. 19. Go home and declare â— great things the Lord had done for him and had had câ— passion on him and ver. 20. he is sayd to haue publishâ— in Decapolis Luke hath it 〈…〉 â—great things Iesus had done for him Which he doâ— what else did hee but preach publish and deâ—e the great loue and mercy of God in and by Ieâ— Christ towards miserable sinners for the curing of â—ir bodily and spirituall maladies 3. Where he â—es the pyblishing of this miracle and the preaching of â— Gospel diuers things and pitties us pooâ—e soules that cannot distinguish between them as Christ bade the â—en of Jerusalem not to weep for him but for themâ—s so surely had he need tâ— pitty not us herein â— himselfe in his so great mistaking Are not the â—acles of Christ storied in the Scripture a maine â— of the Gospel and the publishing of them a â— of the preaching of the Gospel And when M. â—s opens publisheth a miracle of Christs as this â— did doth he not as well and as truly preach the â—spel as at any other time Let the wise iudge â— is to be pittied To shut up this point it is sayd â— 20. 30. that Iesus did many other signes c. and â— 21. But these are writen that yee might beleeue that â—s is the Christ the sonne of God and that beleeuing â— might haue lefe through his name The publishing â— of the signes miracles which Christ did is the â—ching of faith in his name to salvation which â— man therefore did espetially amongst them â—ch were not ignorant of the Law of Moses and â—mise of the Messiah to come which by his glorious miracles done by his owne power and in his oâ— name he both declared and proued himselfe to â—Joh 5 36 10. 37. 38. And where he adds that Câ— gaue this man commission to do that which he diâ— but â— mirs who gaue ours such authority I answer euen â— same Christ as then immediately so now mediaâ— by those unto whome he hath giuen authority uâ— himselfe for the ordering of the gifts of his spirit his Church And sufficient it is for the question â—â—tween him and me if it appeare as in this peâ— that Christ hath giuen commission to men oâ— office by an ordinary gift to publish and preacâ— publick the Gospel of saluation I doe quote next in my booke Luk. 10. â— which for that W. E. omitteth and leaues out â—Yates thanketh God but in truth he hath more â— to thanke him for sparing him a place which so pâ—nantly proueth the preaching of the kingdom ofâ— by men out of office except he can assigne some â— found office and the same but of two or three â— lasting as ver. 17. to those 70 there sent We are in the next place to come unto Joh. 4â— 29. 39. which he openeth and answereth with aâ—ration as the foâ—meâ— place witâ— pitty and comâ—sion on this manner â— simplicitie with contrâ—tion to his owne writing simplicity that cannot see bâ— preaching of the Gospel and carrying tydings of aâ— that told her to wit the woman of Samaria â— things that euer she did is not this saith she the Christ â—t besides simplicity here is contradiction for sayes M â—binson and that truly a woman is not suffered to exâ—ise an ordinary gift of prophesie in the Church and â—ll the women of samaria serue your turne that it is lawâ—â—ll for men to exercise such a gift It is indeed my simplicity to thinke that the Gosâ— as the word importeth is nothing else But glad â—dings and