his words be these Quis est iste qui contra Statuta Euangelica conâ—…a CanonuÌ„ decreta 〈◊〉 sibi nomeÌ„ vsurpare praesumit what man is this that taketh vpoÌ„â—…un this new fangled name to be called the vniuersal Bishop of the hole church coÌ„rtary to the lawes of the gospel contrary to the decrees of the Canons And farther he saith Consentite in hoc nomen est fidem amittere To agree vnto this name is â—…o go froÌ„ the fayth These thinges and other lyke because they haue their foundation in gods word may not be chaunged by any order of y e churche For the church as she is Ladye of her own lawes so is she but a handemayd to the lawes of Christ. But here would I faine know what smatterer taughte you to frame this argument The churche hath power to break sum orders Ergo. She hath power to breke all orders where when she listeth As perâ—…te a LogicioÌ„ as ye make your self yet here ye haue made a sophistication A secundum quid ad simpliciter Which as ye know in Logik is a foul error in reasoniÌ„g But it is a world to coÌ„sider the reasoÌ„ ye vse to proue your purpose withal For ye say the Churche in Christs the Apostles tym was but an infant but now she is well strikeÌ„ in age therfore she must be otherwise dieted now theÌ„ she was then This is not the handsomest coÌ„parison y t I haue herd of For I neuer herd before now y t Christ his Apostles wet called infants Or y t euer any man before nowe toke vpon him to set theÌ„ to schole Esay saith y t Christ shold be pater futuri seculi y t is the sather of the world to cum which is y e tym of y t gospel And s. HieroÌ„ in your owne decrees calleth y t Apostles patres that is not infaÌ„ts but the fathers of y â— church And I beleue though ye would study and labor for it yet would it be very hard for you eyther to find out any good substantial reasoÌ„ wherfore ye w t your brethren ought to be called y â— fathers of gods church or Christ and hys apostles ought to be called babes O y t ye wold indiffereÌ„tly compare the one w t the other Ye shold find that as lyke as ye your Bishops are to the Apostles so lyke is your church to the Apostles church But if I would grauÌ„t you your comparyson that Chryst and hys Apostles are vnto you as childreÌ„ to old fatherly meÌ„ yet how could ye make thys argument good by al your Logike The churche is now be cuÌ„ old and auncient Ergo. The people must pray in a straunge laguage they know not what Or this The church is old Ergo. The people must receyue the SacrameÌ„t but vnder one kynd Or this The church is olde Ergo. The people may not be exhorted to the holy communion but only content theÌ„ self w t a priuate masse If these argumentes seme to be good in law yet I assure you they seme to me very weak ether in logik or in diuinity Howbeit of such reasoÌ„s ye haue stoar ynough as I were able to shew you at large if nede so required As where ye say Quae sunt potestates à Deo ordinatae sunt The powers that be ar ordered by god Ergo. The Pope is aboue the Emperour Spiritualis à nemine iudicatur The maÌ„ that is ruled by gods sprite is iudged of no man Ergo. No man may iudge the Pope Sancti estote quonian ego sanctus sum Be you holy for I am holy saith y â— lord Ergo. No maried man maye bâ—… a Priest Christ said vnto Peter Solue pro me te pay y â— tribut mony for me thee Ergo. The Pope is head of the church Ecclesiasticus sayth In medio ecclesiae aperuâ—…t oâ—… suum He opened hys mouth in the mids of the congregacion Ergo. The Priest must turne rounde at the midst of the aulter Fecit Deus homineÌ„ ad ima ginem similitudineÌ„ suaÌ„ God made man to the I. mag likenes of himself Ergo. There must be Images in the church Papa iuratur in fidem Apostolicam The Pope is sworn to y e Apostles saith Ergo. The church can not erre Non est discipulus supra magistrum There is no scholar aboue his master Ergo No man may iudg the Pope Papa est dominus omnium beneficiorum The Pope is Lord of al benefices Ergo He can not commit Simony though he would Domini est terra plenitudo eius The earth is the Lordes and the â—…nes therof Ergo. The communion cake must be â—…ounde Omnis spiritus laudet Do minuÌ„ Let al sprits praise the Lord. Ergo. Ye must haue Organs in the churche Lac vobis potuÌ„ â–ª dedi Or Ignorantia est mater pietatis I gaue you mylke to drinke or Ignoraunce is the mother of deuocion Ergo. The people must make theyr prayers in a strange tung Logike was good cheape 〈◊〉 these argumentes were allowed But these and a greate many others as good as these haue been made of your syde as ye knowe But iudge ye whether they seme to you to be of such warrant that vpon the syghte of them we mayâ—… safely breake y â— coÌ„maundementes of God or no. Very loth I was so muche to open the weakenes of your syde But for as muche as ye wryte that maister Calâ—…ins master Bucers reasons be such as none but yung folke and children wil be moued with theÌ„ your importunity herein hath caused me to do otherwysâ—… then I would Therfore out of a great nomber of lyke arguments of yours I haue laied forth a few And I beleue â–ª nether chylde nor yong bodye nor your selfe wylbe greatly moued with them Where ye say these things may not be broken by any pryuate authoritie but onely by a generall consente This is but a dilatorye plee to defraude your aduersarye Pe know all the Princes of christen â–ª â—…endom are not so sone brought to together In the mene whyle perhaps ye wil say to your selfe as ye know whosaith Interea fiet aliquid spero But for asmuche as ye geue such credit to a general consent I woulde fain learne at your hand where this custume of yours first began or by what consent it was euer allowed Steuen Gardiner in his boke of the deuels Sophistry touching the communion vnder one kynde imagineth that first sum good deuout body for reuerence he had to the Sacrament thought himselfe not worthy to receyue the cup and so absteined And then folowed another and so another after ano ther and so at length it became as he saith a generall consent Thus he imagineth only vpon â—…is own gesse For therwas neuer anye man y â— so wrote before hym Nether was he able to shewe nor whence nor where this custume 〈◊〉 began nor how farre it went abroad
â— you 〈◊〉 or no and therfore ye spake by 〈◊〉 Where at I do â—…utche 〈◊〉 for the person 〈◊〉 the place maketh â—…ereuce wâ—…o shoulde proue or disproue â–ª The greater personage you beaâ—…e the lesse cause haue ye to be put to answeare You haue not yet I wene all forgot the trade in â—…reforde which you and I were broughte vp in In scâ—…oles of philosâ—…phie a maister of arte is the highest degree where the maister is rather put to oppose theÌ„ to answeare And like wise in diuinitie in ordinarie disputation y â— doctour opposeth the meaner maÌ„ answeareth â–ª And what reasoÌ„ should leade you to to think y â— a Bishop should not rather shew cause of y e he teacheth the any other Saâ—…et Paul requireth in a Bishop that he be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a man before all other meete and able to teche And it is a reule in Bishops that they be â—…eady to giue an accoÌ„pte of theyr beleue And maâ—…ye reasons are there why it should be so You can not say I am an heretique or obstinate and therby put me of For I offer to yelde in all that ye proue to me I stand in place and case to learne and you a man appoynted to teache I come for no other purpose but to learne more then I knowe I come to you for councell in those pointes ye seeme very resolute in I meane you no harme nor guile Cast me not of for Goddes loue as men doe beggers when they mynde to doe them no good Yf ye haue Scriptures Councels c. with you I desire to know them Yf ye haue none lette me my felowes alone in your Sermons We trouble you not nor giue you cause to deale so vnmercifull with vs as some of your side dothe as thoughe we were the most vnreasonable men in the world By lawe vpon good groundes no manne shoulde be put to reason where matters are once agreed on I and my felowes are in bandes to auoide sutche kinde of reasoning as ye woulde put me to Wherein wise men se when ye opeÌ„ly prouoke vs to disproue that ye teach ye fare as if you should saye to one that is bounde hande and foote come strike me thou darest We are as I sayde in place of learners ye in place to teache We are defendauntes and ye y â— plaintifes We continew in the faith we professed sithe our Baptisme ye pretende a chaunge in the same We haue with vs an Aposticall churche ye haue none yet approued We make no innouation for In rebus nouis constituendis saieth y â— law euidens debet esse vtilitas and all new attemptes are to be suspected Ye seeme to mistike in manner all y â— hitherto hath ben receiued But ye saye ye bringe vs againe to the Primitiue Church It is a fowle fal in reasoning to bring that for proufe which lieth yet in questioÌ„ or plainly denied We are in possession ye come to put vs from it Ye meane to drawe vs to you we desire to knowe cauâ—…t why What reaâ—… 〈◊〉 adeth you to put a negatiue in quâ—…n therby to greuâ—… your aduersary yet haue you none of me for I seke on you to be taught where in Lawe a person 〈◊〉 aâ—…ted can be put to no more but to defede Wher a negatiue implieth in it a yea or affirmatiou there the plaintife is put to his proufe But I protest once agayne I come not to dispute but to learne â—…u will happely say that both â—…ur side and yours hath already saâ—… eueÌ„ so muche in the maâ—…ers y â— be in quâ—…stion betwirte vs that as ye can say no more for your parte thâ—… hath ben 〈◊〉 alâ—…eady no more can we neither and 〈◊〉 as good neuâ—…r a whit as neuer the bâ—…â—…f the reasons that Caluâ—… Bucer otâ—… Protesrants dothe make can not 〈◊〉 you what auaileth any moâ—…e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the case be suche in dâ—…de that 〈◊〉 parte can go further but all is sâ—…yd thâ—…t maketh for eyther parte then eyther lâ—…t both partes let other alone vntill suche a generall Councell be assembled as ye will agree to stande by whiche will not be I trow whiles I liue nor seueÌ„ yeares after for oughte I se yet And yet I se other folke thiâ—…ke that not reasonable because the chiefest poinâ—…es we striue on are already determined And here it boteth not to saye as ye do of â—…e Councell of Constance slaunderouâ—…y till ye had proued that â—…e saye I am som what bould with you in this terme but pardon me I pray you thys case requireâ—…h the same It boteth not I say to saye thâ—… Churche hath walked in blindnes so as ye make none accompte of suche determination Remember ye haue not yet proued the errour of one generall Councell Yf 〈◊〉 be as you saye all is saide y â— can be then you and I now shoulde do well to weighe the reasons of bothe sides â—…ere if ye saye what weghtes or balauÌ„ce will ye weigh them by let vs hardely do herein as men do when the queÌ„stion is whiche of two pieces of gold or two pieces of cloth is best then they take a fine pece of Golde or Clothe and that y â— goeth nerest the best that ought to be so taken for best Let you and me weyghe your mennes reasons ours by the fathers weghtes aud balance see who reasoneth most like S. Augustine S. Basil S. Cyprian TertulliaÌ„ Ireneus and â—…ionysium the Councelles suche other weghtes fit for that purpose Thus we see there is yet good cause ynough why men may soberly learne one of an other And if it misfortune y â— for lacke of insight we can not agree whiche balance wegheth heauiest let vs borow eyes of our neighbours And if ye begin handsomly with me I mistrust not but men shall at length get more libertie for so good a purpose when good meaning is well knowen By this ye see I meane no guile nor attempt no new practise Yf ye refuse me at this request fore see what may be thought You are not all withont enemies pardie Sum will percase constrew ye refuse Conscientia imbecillitatis c. Well if ye sende worde yeare at a pointe wil goo no further theÌ„ I pray you that of all this incouÌ„ter there grow no farther breache of amitye or harm other wayes I mean and deal plainly and trust vpon your open promis to go harmeles againe from you as I began Here repeting again my former protestation that I am not nor wil be against any Article that learning or reason can she we I ought to beleue beyng ready without malice to heare and take what may be alleaged to driue me to that yâ—… teache and desiring you here withall to constrew my sayinges by the intent I bad in them and also to tender my suite I shal here make and ende and trouble you no further onles I see more coÌ„forte at your hande I had once made readie
were woÌ„t to haue it in their coÌ„mon disputatioÌ„s in y â— paruise Scholes in Oxford yf it serue only for them y â— dispute dialecticè ye as ye pretend be are the person onely of a lerner cum not to dispute why theÌ„ did ye alledge against me the custome of the Scholes the disputation oâ—… maisters of art in the vniuersities ye knowe they vse there to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dialecticè none otherwise And that I spake herein I spake onely vpon occasion of your own wordes Howe shall I thinke ye remember your Aristotle if ye so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your own letters ¶ Sarum BUt that ye wil not do and ye knowe why 〈◊〉 ye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But 〈◊〉 ye râ—…quire to se our groundes And what better ground can we haue on our side then that Doctour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 man on the other side can 〈◊〉 no ground to stand against 〈◊〉 ¶ Cole RIdetur chorda qui semper aberrat eadeÌ„ Doctor Colâ—… proue it wheÌ„ it 〈◊〉 to his turn Thereply Sarum SEing for lacke of Doctoures ye answere me with Poetes it shall do well to answere you again with the same Decies repeâ—… placebunt And yet when ye come so often with the pretence of desire to be taught and of your reâ—… if I liste to 〈◊〉 as ye do why may not I as wel say to you Ridetur chorda qui semper aberrat eadem As for the prouing herof ye do wel to take a day In the mean season geue others leaue to think the trueth ¶ Sarum HE that wil make any Innoâ—…arion say ye must geue a reason of hys 〈◊〉 O master doctor this reason 〈◊〉 most against your selfe for ye haue misliked and put away the most part of the order of y â— Primitiue church and yet ye neuer gaue good reason of your doinges ¶ Cole IN the end of my 〈◊〉 ye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The reply Sarum ANd there shall you fynde the Reply ¶ Sarum YE say ye are in possession No ye were sometime ye are not nowe and when ye were ye had no right title or good euidence to claime by No more then they which sometime sate in Moses chaire or they y t saide Nos sumus 〈◊〉 Abrahami we are the children of Abraham therby claimed their possession Therfore ye were possessores 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and for that cause ye ar now 〈◊〉 and orderly remoued ¶ Cole VVHen ye meddle with 〈◊〉 ye shewe 〈◊〉 I am 〈◊〉 in possession of all that euer I taught and if you put me out of possession by 〈◊〉 I ought to be restored Had not the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the olde lawÌ„ good title to sit in Moses chaire What ye forget your self yes perbie The 〈◊〉 â—…ccompted no man maloe fidei possessorem after that he hath continued in possession an â—…ored yeres But I pardon you for mistaking 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is not your 〈◊〉 The Reply Sarum I Haue not so litle skil in y e law but I vnderstand what are malae fi dei possessores And as now gods name be praised it is wel knowen y t ye haue been they ye are put out of possessioÌ„ not by violence of maÌ„ but by y e very force of gods trueth which so deuoureth consumeth 〈◊〉 error falshed as Moyses 〈◊〉 deuoured swalowed vp the fained serpeÌ„ts of y t Sorcerers If ye claime to be restored be not agreued to shew your euidence Where ye say the Bishops and Priests y t wer in Christs time had good title to sit in Moyses chaire I graunt you they had euen as good title as ye had to sit and beat rule in the Church of Christ. And therfore your example misliketh me neuer a whyte 〈◊〉 ye knowe Christ called them Fures latrones theues and robers and saide vnto them Vos ex patre diabolo estis ye are y â— children of the deuil Ye say the law accompteth no man possessorem malae fidei y t hath continued in possession one hundred yeares Which thing notw tstanding I can be content to gauÌ„t you to be true in the ciuile law yet is it not true in the law of God that as ye know is proued by diuers authorities eueÌ„ in your own decrees Dist. 8. There is alleged s. Augustin whose words are these Veritate manifestata cedat consuetudo veritati Nemo cousuetudinem rationi veritati praeponat quia consuetudinem ratio veritas semper excludit After y â— trueth is once found out let custom geue place vnto the truth Let no man set custom before truth and reasoÌ„ for reason and trueth euermore put custom to silence Likewise S. Gregory and his wordes are these Si consuetudinem opponas adâ—…uertendum est quod Dominê° dicit Ego sum via veritas vita non dicit Ego sum 〈◊〉 Et certè quaelibet consuetudo quantumuis vetusta quantumuis vulgata veritati omnino est postponenda Yf ye lay custoÌ„ for your selfe ye must remember that Christ faith I am the way the trueth and the lyfe he saith not I am custó And doubtles any custom be it neuer so auncient neuer so commen yet muste it nedes yelde to the trueth Likewise S. Ciprian whose wordes be these Si solus Christus audiendus est â—…on debemus atteÌ„dere quid aliquis ante nos facieÌ„dum putarit sed quid qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit Neque enim hominis consuetudinem sequi debemus sed veritatem Dei cum per Esaiam Prophetam Deu â–ª loquatur dicat sine causa colunt me docentes mandaâ—…a doctrinas hominum If onely Christ must be herd we may not wey what anye man hath thoght good to do that hath been before vs but what Christ â—…ath first done y â— is before all men For we may not folowe the customes of man but the trueth of God specially for that God sayeth by the Prophet Esay They worship me in vain teaching the commaundementes and doctrines of men Thus ye see euen by youre own decrees that custom against the trueth is a very simple grouÌ„de to build vpon And like as ye vse to say Nullum tempus praescribit Regi Som thynketh of good right â–ª cye ought as well to saye Nullum tempus praescribit Deo Otherwise Antichrist shall cum and sit in possession of the holy place and beare himself as if he were God that God knoweth howe many hundred yeres together And yet at the last he shal be but. Antichrist sit he neuer so high For prescription of an hundred yeares can not make the falshode be to the trueth nor can any prescription be auaylable in your own lawe onlesse it haue bonum titulum and that in Religion must nedes be the word of God Which word forasmuche as ye haue not to alledge as ye your selfe knowe no man better all the face of your prescripcion is but vayne And therfore ye were as I said possessores mà lae fidei And ye
syde against theyr Princes But as I then neuer liked theÌ„ that drew their sword against their souerain eueÌ„ so now I pray god coÌ„fouÌ„d theÌ„ whosoeuer they be y t shal first begin the same What lawe ye ministred vs in those dayes I remit it vnto you that are a lawier But I am well assured ye shewed vs neither diuinitye nor humanitye But I pray you what law had ye to imprison sutche euen as had broken no lawe and so to kepe them in your cole houses in stokes and fetters with all extremitye and exueltye vntil ye had made a lawe for them and to do with them as Cyril saieth the Jewes did with Christ primum ligant deinde causas in eum quaerunt â–ª prius captuÌ„ habent quà m accusatum First they bind him fast saith Cyrill and theÌ„ they deuise matter agaiust hym They lay handes vpon him before any man accuse him What law had ye to burne the Quenes subiectes handes w t candelles or torches before they were condemned to dye by any law What law had ye to ascite a man to appeare peremptoriè at Rome within lxxx dayes and yet that not withstanding to kepe him still in prison in Oxforde and afterwarde for not appearinge at hys day at Rome to condemne hym there as obstinate Or what law had ye to put the same man to death against the expresse wordes of your own lawe after he had subscribed vnto you and was founde in no relapse I trust ye can say some what herein For that you being then a lawier and in commission had the execucion of y t law But I beleue when ye haue searched your bâ—…kes through ye shall fynde ye had not so much law as they that sayd Nos habemus legem secundum legeÌ„ debet mori Sarum WHere ye say our doctrine is yet in doubt I assure you to vs it is most certain and out of doubt But if ye for youre part be yet in doubt reason and charity would ye had been better resolued and qyut out of doubt before ye had dealt so unmercifully with your brethren ¶ Cole I Doubted more theÌ„ I do now ye geue me good cause to be well confirmed The reply Sarum THis is a faire shift of retorike when other help faileth you Euen thus the Pharises after they had ben loÌ„g in a mammering and in doubt of Christ at the last were fully confirmed and out of doubt and saied vnto him 〈◊〉 scimus te habere daemonâ—…um As if they shoulde then haue sayed vnto Christ as you say nowe to vs we doubted more before then we do nowe for nowe ye geue vs good cause to be well confirmed â–ª But if I haue confirmed you bringynge such proufes as ye are not able to answer how then thinke ye haue others cause to be confirmed at your handes that haue vsed suche extremity and yet ar able to bring nothing at all ¶ Sarum YE are bounde ye say and maye not dispute yet are ye not so bounde as ye haue bounde others But when 〈◊〉 wer at libertie and a 〈◊〉 disputation was graunted and offered at Westminster before the Quenes maâ—…esties moste honorable councell and the whole state of the Realm I pray you whether part was it that then gaue ouer And yet the ye knowe ye were not bounde onlesse it were to â—…lence because ye had nothing to say ¶ Cole AT Westminster we came to dispute were answered that there was non appointed wher we refused not to write neyther But when our boke could not be read as yours was we refused not vtterly to dispute but onely in the case if oure boke could not be suffered to be red as indiffereÌ„tly as yours was Now hardely weigh whether ye haue indifferently reported that we vtterly refused to dispute with you or no. The reply Sarum YE could not lightly haue gotten so many vntruethes together without sume stâ—…y Where ye saye ye were answered there was no disputation appointed at Westminster if I should aske you who made you that answer I rekeÌ„ ye would be to siek For I trust ye haue not yet forgotten that ye your selfe were the first man that began to dispute there that day spake there an whole houre together without interruption But I marueil ye say not that we of our part gaue you ouer and refused to dispute Ye say ye refused not to wryte your allegacioÌ„s and answeares as ye had promised to do and earnestly required it might be so and yet contrary to your request and promise ye could not begotten as ye know to writ one line Ye saye your boke could not be read as ours was yet ye knowe ye had no boke there to be read at all as we had As for the indifferent ordering and hearing of the matters I remit that to them that wer the orderers of it of whom ye can not in any wise complain but both your own and the hearers consciences must nedes accuse you The order of the disputaâ—…ion was that both partes shoulde the fyrst day bring in their assertion al in writing and that the nexte day eyther party should answer the others boke and that also by wrytig which was your own request as it wil apperre by your protestation sent to the councell in that behalfe The first day ye came without any boke at all contrary to the order taken and also as I haue sayd to your own request The second day ye refused to procede any father and stode onely vpon this point that onlesse ye might haue the last word ye would not disput For ye said whosoeuer might haue that wer like to discedere cum applausu for these very wordes two of your own company vttered in latin euen by the same termes as I do now Otherwise ye sayd ye would not dispute Which answer was so vain that not onelye y â— rest of the hearers but olso y â— Bishop that theÌ„ was of Yorke your own frend fouÌ„d faulte with it and was ashamed of it bad you procede In conclusion contrary to al meÌ„s loking for onely vpon your refusall the disputacion was sodenlye broken of And I am contente to stande to the iudgement of all the heaâ—…ers herein whether I haue reported indifferently or no. ¶ Sarum YE say ye remayne still in the faith ye wer baptised in O maâ—…ter doctour stande not to much vpon that point Ye know ye haue already forsaken a great number of thinges that were thought necessary when ye were baptised And yet besides that how many tymes haue sum of you altered your faith within the space of xx yeres Remeber wel your self who wrote the boke de vera obedientia against the supremacy of Rome Who commended it with his preface Who set it forth in solemne SermoÌ„s Who confirmed it with open othe ¶ Cole VVHat one thinge am I gone from ye saye muche and proue little Ye meane the 〈◊〉 Bishop of winchester who repented at the
the Scriptures nor obedience vnto sound doctrine is to be weyed in y â— Bishops that rule the councell but onely a certaine solemnity and fourme of law Dioscorus that was President of the same councel and hys wordes be reported in the councell of ChalcedoÌ„ saith thus Theodosius confirmauit omnia quae iudicata sunt à sancta vniuersali synodo generali Theodosius saith he hath confirmed all such things as were determined by this vniuersall and generall councel Here ye see it is called an vniuerlall and a generall councell And afterward in the same councell of Chalcedon ye shall fynde these wordes Sanctissimae Domino amantissimae vniuersalli Synodo congregatae in Epheso metro poli To the holy beloued vnto the Lord y â— vniuersal couÌ„cel gathered in the mother City of Ephesus But if perhappes ye doubte of these wordes because the one was Eutyches the other was Dioscorus by whom they were spoken howbeit notwithstandinge they were heretikes yet could they not lightly make an open lye in a matter that was so euident then reaâ—… ye the olde father Liberatus that was Archidiaconê° CarthaginieÌ„â—â— and liued vnder â—…igilius Bishop of Rome at the least a thousande yeares ago and wryteth the very story of this councell his wordes be these Fit Ephesi generale concilium ad quod conuenerunt Flauianus Eutyches tanquam iudicaÌ„di There is appointed saieth he at Ephesus a generall councel in the whych Flauianus and Eutyches made theyr appearaunce as men standyng to be iudged Nowe if ye wyll say that generale concilium is not in English a general couÌ„cel then I woulde it mighte be put ouer to some other courte O maister doctour if ye meure nothynge els but trueth ye woulde not do â—…s ye do Thus much haue I written in the defence of your doctour Pigghius for that I saw him accused of you without cause ¶ Sarum ANd of the councels holden of laâ—… yeares at Constance and â—…asile â–ª whereas Popâ—… John and Popâ—…â—…ugenius wer deposed he sayth plainly that they decreed both against reason and against nature and against all eramples of antiquity and also agaynst the worde of God And yet both thesâ—… councels were called generall ¶ Cole WHerin doeth Pighius proue the councels 〈◊〉 Constance and Basil to haue erred Mary because they decreed the generall councell to be aboue the Pope Ifye take these two couÌ„cels to haue erred in these points ye are a greater papist then I am For I holde herein rather with Gerson I trow this be one place 〈◊〉 ye wrote not yourself Yet I reken no errour proued in anye generall councell by that ye haue yet sayd The Reply Sarum YEs I assure you master doctour I put in this place all the reast my selfe alone without conference And yet God be thanked I can finde nothing in your wrytinges but suche as any man may sone geasse it came onely froÌ„ your selfe alone Ye take exception before with y t I alledged the couÌ„cell of Basil sent me worde that no such thing could be found But now I see ye are better aduised As touching Pighius I vsed his authority herein as S. Paul to reproue them that denied the resurrection vsed the authoritye of them that baptised for the dead not for that he thought such baptisme wel ministred but onlye for that it serueth to his purpose For I shewed you not what I thoght my selfe but what Pighius your great doctour thought and what ye your selfe must needes thinke vnlesse ye wil pul down your own doctrine and set the Pope hymselfe and all his adhetentes vpon your top But if ye take part with GersoÌ„ as ye saye ye do marke howe the chiefe piller of your buildinge begynnes to shake If the Pope be head of y â— church as ye say and the councell be but Ecclesia representatiua that is a resemblance of the churche as your Canonistes and schole men saye â–ª howe â—…an it be but y â— Pope by your own saying whether Gerson wyl ornyll must â—…des be head of the councell for he that is head of the whole must also be head of y â— part onlesse perhappes ye will saye the parte is greater then the whole Of these grauntes of yours there foloweth consequentlye great â—…conuenience against your selfe ye say The pope is not aboue the councell Ergo. May som other maÌ„ say â–ª He is muche lesse aboue the hole church Again The Pope is not aboue the church Ergo. He is not head of the church But all this notwithstandinge ye saye the counceli is aboue the Pope And yet ye know that euen now whatsoeuer is decreed in any generall couÌ„cell there is euermore deuolucioÌ„ made to y â— Pope as vnto him y t is thought to be aboue the councell and without whom nothing may be concluded Haue ye forgotten that Pope Pius and Pope Julius of late yeres commauÌ„ded there should no appeale be made from the Pope to any councell Haue ye forgotten that the last general councel holden at TrideÌ„t concluded thus at the cude Salua semper in omnibus Sedis Apostolâ—…cae authoritate as confessing opeÌ„ly that they toke the Pope to be aboue the councel Haue ye forgotten that youre own doctoures say Papa est foâ—… omnis iuris the Pope is the fountaine of all maner law And Papa habet omnia iura in scrinio pcctoris sui the Pope hath all lawe vnder the secrete of his breast Haue ye forgotteÌ„ what is written in the Popes own decretales Extra de electione electi potestate Si totus mundus sentiet in aliquo contra Papam videtur quod standum sit sententiae Pape If all the world should geue sentence in any matter against the Pope it appeareth for all that we ought to stande to the determinacion of the Pope Haue ye forgotten that is written in your own councels Papa à nemine iudicatur the Pope is iudged of no man And a ioly reason ioyned to the same Quia non est discipulus supra magistruÌ„ for there is no scholer aboue his master Haue ye forgotten that that is wrytten in your decrees Neque ab Augusto neque a regibus neque a toto clero neque a populo Iudex iudicabitur The iudge that is to say y t Pope shal be iudged nother by the Emperor nother by kings nor by the whole clergye nor by the people And again Aliorum hominum causas voluit Deus per homines ter minare sed huius sedis praesuleÌ„ suo sine questione seruauit arbitrio Other mens causes God woulde haue to be determined and ruled by men But the Bishop of thys See out of all doubt he reserued only to his owne iudgement And again Facta subditorum iudicantur à nobis nostra autem a solo Deo the doinges of our subiectes are iudged by vs but our doinges are iudged onely by God Haue ye forgotten y t your schole men say Papa habet ius infragabile de quo non licet