against us and after they were turned out I was called in next and the dore being opened I marched into the Room with my hat on and looking about me I saw divers Members of the House of Commons present and so I put it off and by Sergeant Dendy I was directed to go neer M. Bradshaw that sate as if he had bin Chairman to the Gentlemen that were there present between whom and my self past to this following effect Lieut. Col. Lilburn said he here are some Votes of Parliament that I am commanded by this Councel to acquaint you with which were accordingly read and which did contain the late published and printed Proclamation or Declaration against the second Part of Englands New Chains discovered with divers instructions and an unlimitted power given unto the Councel of State to find out the Authors and Promoters thereof After the reading of which M. Bradshaw said unto me Sir You have heard what hath bin read unto you and this Councel having information that you have a principal hand in compiling and promoting this Book shewing me the Book it self therefore they have sent for you and are willing to hear you speak for your self Well then M. Bradshaw said I If it please you and these Gentlemen to afford me the same liberty and priviledge that the Cavaliers did at Oxford when I was arraigned before them for my liâ—â—… for levying War in the quarrel of the Common-wealth against the late King and his Party which was liberty of speech to speak my mind freely without interruption I shall speak and go on but without the Grant of liberty of speech I shall not say a word more to you To which he replyed That is already granted you and therefore you may go on to speak what you can or will say for your self if you please or if you will not you may hold your peace and with draw Well then said I M. Bradshaw with your favour thus I am an Englishman born bred and brought up and England is a Nation Governed Bounded and Limitted by Laws and Liberties and for the Liberties of England I have both fought and suffered much but truly Sir I judge it now infinitely below me and the glory and excellency of my late actions now to plead merit or desert unto you as though I were forced to fly to the merit of my former actions to lay in a counter-scale to weigh down your indignation against me for my pretended late offences No Sir I scorn it I abhor it And therefore Sir I now stand before you upon the bare naked and single account of an Englishman as though I had never said done or acted any thing that tended to the preservation of the Liberties thereof but yet have never done any act that did put me out of a Legal capacity to claim the utmost punctilio benefit and priviledge that the Laws and Liberties of England will afford to any of you here present or any other man in the whole Nation And the Laws and Liberties of England are my inheritance and birth-right And in your late Declaration published about four or five daies ago wherein you lay down the grounds and reasons as I remember of your doing Justice upon the late King and why you have abolished Kingly Government and the House of Lords you declare in effect the same and promise to maintain the Laws of England in reference to the Peoples Liberties and Freedoms And amongst other things therein contained you highly commend and extol the Petition of Right made in the third yeer of the late King as one of the most excellent and gloriest Laws in reference to the Peoples Liberties that ever was made in this Nation and you there very much blame and cry out upon the King for robing and denying the people of England the benefit of that Law and sure I am for I have read and studied it there is one clause in it that saith expresly That no Free-man of England ought to be adjudged for life limb liberty or estate but by the Laws already in being established and declared And truly Sir if this be good and found Legal Doctrine as undoubtedly it is or else your own Declarations are false and lyes I wonder what you Gentlemen are For the declared and known Laws of England knows you not neither by names nor qualifications as persons endowed with any power either to imprison or try me or the meanest Free-man of England And truly were it not that I know the faces of divers of you and honour the persons of some of you as Members of the House of Commons that have stood pretty firm in shaking times to the Interest of the Nation I should wonder what you are or before whom I am and should not in the least honor or reverence you so much as with Civil Respect especially considering the manner of my being brought before you with armed men and the manner of your close sitting contrary to all Courts of Justice M. Bradshaw it may be the House of Commons hath past some Votes or Orders to authorise you to sit here for such and such ends as in their Orders may be declared But that they have made any such Votes or Orders is legally unknown to me I never saw them It s true by common Fame you are bruted abroad and stiled a Councel of State but its possible common Fame in this particular may as well tell me a ly as a truth But admit common Fame do in this tell me a truth and no ly but that the House of Commons in good earnest have made you a Councel of State yet I know not what that is because the Law of England tells me nothing of such a thing and surely if a Councel of State were a Court of Justice the Law would speak somthing of it But I have read both old and new Laws yea all of late that it was possible to buy or hear of and they tell me not one word of you and therefore I scarce know what to make of you or what to think of you but as Gentlemen that I know I give you civil respect and out of no other consideration But if you judge your selves to be a Councel of State and by vertue thereof think you have any power over me I pray you shew me your Commission that I may know the better how to behave my self before you M. Bradshaw I will not now question or dispute the Votes or Orders of the present single House of Commons in reference to their power as binding Laws to the people yet admit them to be valid legal and good their due circumstances accompanying them yet Sir by the Law of England let me tell you what the House Votes Orders and Enacts within their walls is nothing to me I am not at all bound by them nor in Law can take any cognisance of them as Laws although 20. Members come out of the House and tell me such things are done till they
be published and declared by sound of Trumpet Proclamation or the like by a publike Officer or Magistrate in the publike and open places of the Nation But truly Sir I never saw any Law in Print or writing that declares your power so proclaim'd or published and therefore Sir I know not what more to make of you then a company of private men being neither able to own you as a Court of Justice because the Law speaks nothing of you nor as a Councel of State till I see and read or hear your Commission which I desire if you please to be acquainted with But Sir give me leave further to aver unto you and upon this Principle or Averment I will venture my life and being and all I have in the world That if the House had by a Proclaimed and Declared Law Vote or Order made this Councel as you call your selves a Court of Justice yet that proclaimed or declared Law Vote or Order had bin unjust and null and void in it self And my reason is because the House it self was never neither now nor in any age before betrusted with a Law executing power but only with a Law making power And truly Sir I should have lookt upon the people of this Nation as very fooles if ever they had betrusted the Parliament with a law executing power and my reason is because if they had so done they had then chosen and impowred a Parliament to have destroyed them but not to have preserved them which is against the very nature and end of the very being of Parliaments they being by your own declared doctrin chosen to provide for the peoples weale but not for their wo And Sir the reason of that reason is because its possible if a Parliament should execute the Law they might doe palpable injustice and male administer it and so the people would be robd of their intended extraordinary benefit of appeales for in such cases they must appeale to the Parliament either against it self or part of it self and can it ever be imagined they will ever condemne themselves or punish themselves nay will they not rather judge themselves bound in honour and safety to themselves to vote that man a Traytor and destroy him that shall so much as question their actions although formerly they have dealt never so unjustly with him For this Sir I am sure is very commonly practised now a dayes and therefore the honesty of former Parliaments in the discharge of their trust and duty in this particular was such that they have declared the power is not in them to judge or punish me or the meanest free-man in England being no Member of their House although I should beat or wound one of their Members nigh unto their dore going to the House to discharge his duty but I am to be sent in all such cases to the Judge of the upper * See 5. H. 4. 6. 11. H. 6. Ch. 11. see also my plea against the Lords jurisdiction before the Judges of the Kings Bench called the Laws Funeral Pag. 8 9. and my grand Plea against the Lords jurisdiction made before M. Maynard of the house of Commons and the foure imprisoned Aldermen of Londons plea against the Lords jurisdiction published by M. Lionel Hurbin 1648. Bench unto whom by Law they have given declared rules and direction in that particular how to behave himself which are as evident for me to know as himself now Sir if reason and justice doe not judge it convenient that the Parliament shal not be Iudges in such particular cases that is of so neere concernment to themselves but yet hath others that are not of their House that are as well concerned as themselves much lesse will reason or justice admit them to be judges in particular cases that are farther remote from their particular selves and doth meerly concern the common wealth and sure I am Sir this is the declared Statute Law of England and doth stand in ful force at this houre there being I am sure of it no law to repeale it no not since the House of Commons set up their new Common-wealth Now Sir from all this I argue thus that which is not inherent in the whole cannot by the whole be derived or assigned to a part But it is not inherent neither in the power nor authority of the whole House of Commons primarily and originally to execute the Law and therefore they cannot derive it to a part of them selves But yet Sir with your favour for all this I would not be mistaken as though I maintained the Parliament had no power to make a Court of justice for I do grant they may errect a Court of justice to administer the Law provided that the Iudges consist of persons that are not Members of their House and provided that the power they give them be universal that is to say to administer the law to all the people of England indefinitely and not to two or three particular persons solely the last of which for them to do is unjust and altogether out of their power And therefore Sir to conclude this point It being not in the power of the whole Parliament to execute the Law they can give no power to you their Members to meddle with me in the case before you For an ordinary Court of Justice the proper Administrator of the Law is the onely and sole Judge in this particular and not you Gentlemen no nor your whole House it self For with your favour M. Bradshaw the fact that you suppose I have committed for till it be judicially proved and that must be before a legal Judge that hath cognisance of the fact or confessed by my self before the Judge it is but a bare supposition is either a crime or no crime A crime it cannot be unless it be a Transgression of a Law in being before it was committed acted or done For where there is no Law * Rom. 4.15 See the 4. part of the L. Cooks Instituts Ch. 1. high Court of Parl. fol. 14. 35. 37. See also my printed Epistle to the Speaker of the 4. of April 1648. called The Prisoners plea for a Habeas Corpus p. 5 6. and Englands Birth-right p. 1 2 3 4. and the second edition of my Epistle to Judge Reeves p. 11 12 13 14 15. and M. John Wildmans Truths Tryumph p. 11 12 13 14. and Sir John Maynards Case truly stated called The Laws Subversion p. 9.13 14 15 16. 38. there is no Transgression And if it be a Transgression of a Law that Law provides a punishment for it and by the Rules and method of that Law am I to be tryed and by no other whatsoever made ex post facto And therefore Sir If this be true as undoubtedly it is then I am sure you Gentlemen have no power in Law to convene me before you for the pretended crime laid unto my charge much less to fetch me by force out of my habitation by the
party of Officers of the Army hath twice rebelled against the Parliament and broke them to pieces and by force of Armes culled out whom they please and imprisoned divers of them and laid nothing to their charge and have left only in a manner a few men besides eleven of themselves viz. the General Cromwel Ireton Harrison Fleetwood Rich Ingolsby Hasleridge Constable Fennick Walton and Allen Treasurer of their own Faction behind them that will like Span el-doggs serve their lusts and wills yea some of the chiefest of them viz. Ireton Harrison c. yea M. Holland himself stiling them a mocke Parliament a mocke power at Windsor yea it is yet their expressions at London And if this be true that they are a mocke power and a mocke Parliament then Quere Whether in Law or Justice especially considering they have fallen from al their many glorious promises have not done any one action that tends to the universal good of the Peolpe Can those Gentlemen siting at Westminster in the House called the House of Commons be any other than a Factious company of men trayterously combined together with Crom. Ireton and Harrison to subdue the Laws Liberties and Freedomes of England for no one of them protest against the rest and to set up an absolute and perfect Tyranny of the Sword Will and pleasure and absolutely intend the destroying the Trade of the Nation and the absolute impoverishing the people thereof to sit them to be their Vassals and Slaves And if so then Quere Whether the Free People of England as well Soldiers as others ought not to contemne all these mens commands as invalid and illegal in themselves and as one man to rise up against them as so many professed traytors theives robbers and high way men and apprehend and bring them to justice in a new Representative chosen by vertue of a just Agreement among the People there being no other way in the world to preserue the Nation but that alone the three forementioned men viz. Cromwel Ireton and Harrison the Generall being but their Stalking horse and a Cifer and there trayterous * For the greatest Traytors they are that ever were in this nation as upon the losse of my head I John Lilburn will by law undertake to prove and make good before the next free Parliament to whom Ihereby appeale faction having by their wills and Swords got all the Swords of England under their command and the disposing of all the great places in England by Sea and Land and also the pretended Law making power and the pretended law executing power by making among themselves contrary to the Laws and and Liberties of England all Iudges Iustices of peace Sherifes Balifes Committee men c. to execute their wills and Tyranny walking by no limits or bounds but their own wills and pleasures And traytorously assume unto themselves a power to levy upon the people what money they please and dispose of it as they please yea even to buy knifes to cut the peoples throats that pay the mony to them and to give no account for it til Doomes Day in the afternoone they having already in their wills and power to dispose of the Kings Queens Princes Dukes and the rest of the childrens Revenue Deans and Chapters lands Bishops lands sequestered Delinquents lands sequestred Papists lands Compositions of all sorts amounting to millions of money besides Excise and Customes yet this is not enough although if rightly husbanded it would constantly pay above one hundred thousand men and furnish an answerable Navy there unto But the people must now after their trades are lost and their estates spent to procure their liberties and freedoms be cessed about 100000. pound a moneth that so they may be able like so many cheaters and State theeues to give 6. 8. 10. 12. 14. 16 thousand pounds a peice over again to one another as they have done already to divers of themselves to buy the Common wealths lands one of another contrary to the duty of Trustees who by law nor equity can neither give nor sel to one another at two or three years purchase the true and valuable rate considered as they have already done and to give 4 or 5000 l per annum over again to King Cromwel as they have done already out of the Earle of Wrocesters estate c. Besides about four or five pounds a day he hath by his places of Lieut. General and Collonel of Horse in the Army although he were at the beginning of this Parliament but a poore man yea little better than a begger to what he is now as well as other of his neighbours But to return those gentlemen that would have had us bailed lost the day by one vote as we understood and then about 12. at night they broke up we went into their pretended Secretary found our commitments made in these words our names changed viz. These are to will and require you to receive herewith into your custody the person of Lieut. Col. John Lilburn and him safely to keep in your Prison of the Tower of London until you receive farther order he being committed to you upon suspition of high Treason of which you are not to faile and for which this shal be your sufficient Warrant Given at the Councel of State at Darby-house this 28. day of March 1649 Signed in the name and by the Order of the Councel of State 〈◊〉 appointed by authority of Parliament Jo. Bradshaw President To the Lieut. of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of London Note that we were committed upon Wednesday their fast day being the best fruits that ever any of their fasts brought out amongst them viz. To smite with the fist of wickedness For the illegality of this Warrant I shall not say much because it is like all the rest of the Warrants of the present House of Commons and their unjust Committees whose Warrants are so sufficiently anatomised by my quondam Comrade M. Iohn Wildman in his books called Truths Tryumph and the Laws subversion being Sir Iohn Maynards case truly stated and by my self in my late Plea before the Judges of the Kings Bench now in print and intituled The Laws Funeral that it is needless to say any more of that particular and therefore to them I refer the Reader But to go on when we had read our Warrants we told M. Frost we would not dispute the legality of them because we were under the force of Guards of Armed musquettiers So some time was spent to find a man that would go with us to prison Capt. Ienkins as I remember his name being Capt. of the Guard and my old and familiar acquaintance was prevailed with by us to take the charge upon him who used us very Civilly and gave us leave that night it being so late to go home to our wives and took our words with some other of our friends then present to meet him in the morning at the Angel Tavern neer the Tower
Time as after the language of their new fangled Saint-ships I may speak it they have brought their seasons to perfection even to the Season of Seasons now to rest themselves in the large and full enjoyment of the creature for a time two times and half a time resolving now to ware out the true asserters of the peoples freedom and to change the time and laws to their exorbitant ambition and will while all their promises declarations and engagements to the people must be null'd and made Cyphers and cast aside as wast paper as unworthy the fulfilment or once the remembrance of those Gentlemen those magnificent stems of our new upstart Nobillity for now it is not with them as in the dayes of their engagement at New-market and Triplâ—e heath but as it was in the days of old with corrupt persons so is it in ours Tempora mutantur But to proceed to the story the Lievtenant Collonel did not only shew his weakness or rather his iniquity in his dealing with me but he converts the aforesaid Souldier of Leivtenant Generalls Regiment before divers of the Officers at White-hall and there he renders the reason wherefore he made him a prisoner because said he he takes Overtons part for he came and asked him how he did and bid him be of good comfort and he lay last night with a woman To which he answered It is true but the woman was my wife then they proceeded to ask when they were married and how they should know shee was his wife and he told them where and when but that was not enough they told him he must get a Certificate from his Captain that he was married to her and then he should have his liberty Friends and Country-men where are you now what shall you do that have no Captains to give you Certificates sure you must have the banes of Matrimony re-asked at the Conventicle of Gallants at White-hall or at least you must thence have a Congregationall Licence without offence be it spoken to true Churches to lye with your wives else how shall your wives be chast or the children Legitimate they have now taken Cognizance over your wives and beds whether will they next Judgement is now come into the hand of the armed-fury Saints My Masters have a care what you do or how you look upon your wives for the new-Saints Millitant are paramount all Laws King Parliament husbands wives beds c. But to let that passe Towards the evening we were sent for to go before the Counsell of State at Darby-house and after Lievtenant Collonel John Lilburne and Mr. Wallwine had been before them then I was called in and Mr. Bradshaw spake to me to this effect Master Overton the Parliament hath seen a Book Intituled The Second Part of Englands New-Chains Discovered and hath past several Votes thereupon and hath given Order to the Councel to make inquiry after the Authors and Publishers thereof and proceed upon them as they see Cause and to make a return thereof unto the House And thereupon he Commanded Mr. Frost their Secretary to read over the said Votes unto me which were to this purpose as hath since been publickly proclaimed Die Martis 27 Martis 1649. THe House being informed of a Scandalous and Seditius Book Printed entituled The Second Part of Englands New-Chains Discovered The said Book was this day read REsolved upon the Question by the Commons assembled in Parliament That this printed Paper entituled The Second Part of Englands New-Chains Discovered c. doth contâ—in most false scandalous and reproachful matter and is highly Seditious and Destructive to the present Government as it is now Declared and setled by Parliament tends to Division and Mutiny in the Army and the raising of a New War in the Common-wealth and to hinder the present Relief of Ireland and to the continuing of Free-Quarter And this House doth further Declare That the Authors Contrivers and Framers of the said Papers are guilty of High Treason and shall be proceeded against as Traytors And that all Persons whatsover that shall joyn with or adhere unto and hereafter voluntarily Ayd or Assist the Authors Framers and Contrivers of the aforesaid Paper in the prosecution thereof shall be esteemed as Traytors to the Common-wealth and be proceeded against accordingly Then Mr. Bradshaw spake to me much after this effect Master Overton this Councel having received Information That you had a hand in the Contriving and Publishing of this Book sent for you by their Warrant to come before them Besides they are informed of other Circumstances at your Apprehension against you That there were divers of the Books found about you Now Mr. Overton if you will make any Answer thereunto you have your Liberty To which I answered in these words or to the like effect Sir what Title to give you or distinguish you by I know not Indeed I confesse I have heard by common report that you go under the name of a Councel of State but for my part what you are I cannot well tell but this I know that had you as you pretend a just authority from the Parliament yet were not your Authority valuable or binding till solemnly proclaimed to the people so that for my part in regard you were pleased thus violently to bring me before you I shall humbly crave at your hands the production of your Authority that I may know what it is for my better information how to demean my self Presid Mr. Overton We are satisfied in our Authority Ric. Overt Sir if I may not know it however I humbly desire that I may be delivered from under the force of the Military power for having a naturall and legall title to the Rights of an Englishman I shall desire that I may have the benefit of the Law of England which Law taketh no cognizance of the Sword And in case you or any man pretend matter of crime against me in order to a tryall I desire I may be resigned up to the Civil Magistrate and recceive a free and legall tryall in some ordinary Court of Justice according to the known Law of the Land that if I be found a transgressor of any established declared Law of England on Gods name let me suffer the penalty of that Law Further Sir In case I must still be detained a prisoner it is my earnest desire that I may be disposed to some prison under the jurisdiction and custody of the Civill Authority For as for my own part I cannot in conscience to the common right of the people submit my self in any wise to the tryall or custody of the Sword for I am no Souldier neither hath the Army any Authoritie over me I owe them neither dutie nor obedience they are no Sheriffs Justices Bailiff Constables or other Civil Magistrates So that I cannot neither will I submit unto their power but must take the boldnesse to protest against it Presid Mr. Overton If this be your Answer you may withdraw
power of armed men For Sir let me tell you The Law of England never made Colonels Lieu. Colonels Captains or Souldiers either Bayliffs Constables * See the Petition of Right in the C. R. and my Book called the Peoples Prerogative p. 67 68 69 70. or Justices of the Peace And I cannot but wonder that you should attach me in such a manner as you have done considering that I have all along adhered to the Interest of the Nation against the common enemy as you call them and never disputed nor contemned any Order of Summons from Parliament or the most irregularest of their Committees but alwaies came to them when they sent for me although their warrant of summons was never so illegal in the form of it and I have of late in a manner de die in diem waited at the House dore and was there that day the Votes you have read past till almost twelve a clock and I am sure there are some here present whose conscience I believe tells them they are very much concerned in the Book now before you that saw me at the dore and stared wishfully upon me as they went into the House and I cannot but wonder there could be no Civil Officer found to summon me to appear but that now when there is no visible hostile enemy in the Nation and all the Courts of Justice open that you that have no power at all over me must send for me by an hundred or two hundred armed Horse and Foot as though I were some monstrous man that with the breath of my mouth were able to destroy all the Civil Officers that should come to apprehend me Surely I had not endeavoured to fortifie my house against you neither had I betaken my self to a Castle or a defenced Garison in hostility against you that you need to send an hundred or two hundred armed men to force me out of my house from my wife and children by four or five a clock in the morning to the distracting and frighting of my wife and children Surely I cannot but look upon this irregular unjust and illegal hostile action of yours at one of the fruits and issues of your new created Tyranny to amuse and debase my spirit and the spirits of the People of this Free Nation to fit me and them for bondage and slavery And Sir give me leave further to tell you that for divers hundreds of men that have often bin in the field with their swords in their hands to encounter with hostile enemies and in their engagements have acquitted themselves like men of valour and come out of the field conquerors for these very men to put themselves in Martial Array against four Mise or Butterflyes and take them captives and as captives lead them through the streets me-thinks is no great victory and conquest for them but rather a diminution to their former Martial Atchievements and Trophies And therefore to conclude this I do here before you all prorest against your Power and Jurisdiction over me in the case in controversie And do also protest against your Warrant you issued 〈◊〉 to apprehend me And against all your martial and hostile acts committed towards me as illegal unjust and tyrannical and no way in Law to be justified Further telling you that I saw most of the Lord of Straffords arraignment and if my memory fail me not as little things as you have already done to me were by your selves laid to his charge as acts of Treason For which I saw him lose his head upon Tower-hill as a Traytor And I doubt not for all this that is done unto me but I shall live to see the Laws and Liberties of England firmly setled in despite of the present great opposers thereof and to their shame and confusion and so M. Bradshaw I have done with what I have now to say Vpon which M. Bradshaw replyed Lieut. Col. Lilburn you need not to have bin so earnest and have spent so much time in making an Apologetical defence for this Councel doth not go about to try you or challenge any jurisdiction to try you neither do we so much as ask you a question in order to your tryal and therefore you may correct your mistake in that particular Vnto which I said Sir by your favour if you challenge no Jurisdiction over me no not so much as in order to a tryal what do I here before you or what do you in speaking to me But Sir seing I am now here give me leave to say one word more and that is this I am not onely in time of peace the Courts of Justice being all open fetcht forc't out of my house by multitudes of armed men in an hostile manner carried as a captive up and down the streets contrary to all Law and Justice but I am by force of Arms still kept in their custody and it may be may be intended to be sent to them again who are no Guardians of the Laws of England no nor so much as the meanest Administrators or Executors of it but ought to be subject to it themselves and to the Administrators of it And truly Sir I had rather dy than basely betray my liberties into their Martial fingers who after their fighting for our Freedoms would now destroy them and tread them under their feet that have nothing at all to do with me nor any pretended or real civil offender in England I know not what you intend to do with me neither do I much care having learned long since to dy and rather for my Liberties than in my bed It s true I am at present in no capacity effectually to dispute your power because I am under Guards of armed muskettiers but I entreat you If you will continue me a prisoner that you will free me from the military Sword and send me to some Civil Goal and I will at present in peace and quietness obey your command and go And so I concluded and was commanded to with-draw which I did and then M. William Wallin was called in and while he was within I gave unto my comrades M. Prince and M. Overton and the rest of the people a summary account of what had past between me and them and within a little time after M. Walwin came â—ut again and M. Overton was called in next and at M. Walwins coming out he acquainted us what they said to him which was in a manner the same they said to me and all that he said to them was but this That he did not know why he was suspected To which M. Bradshaw replyed Is that all you have to say And M. Walwin answered yes So he vvas commanded to vvithdraw And after M. Overton vvas come out M. Prince vvas called in and after he had withdrawn they spent some time of debate among themselves and then I vvas called in again So I marched in sutable to my first posture and went close to M. Bradshaw who said unto me to
vvill go in Peace and quietness vvithout any further dispute of your authority For vvhen I come there I know those Goalers have their bound and limits set them by the Law and I know how to carry my self towards them and what to expect from them and if they do abuse me I know how in law to help my self And so Sir I have said what at present I have to say Whereupon M. Bradshaw commanded the Sergeant to put me out at an other dore that so I should no more go amongst the people and immediatly M. Walwin was put out to me and asking him what they said to him I found it to be the same in effect they said to me demanding the same fore-going question of him that they did of me to which question after some kind of pause he answered to this effect That he could not but very much wonder to be asked such a question however that it was very much against his Judgement and Conscience to answer to questions of that nature which concerned himself that if he should answer to it he should not onely betray his own Liberty but the Liberties of all Englishmen which he could not do with a good Conscience And he could not but exceedingly grieve at the dealing he had found that day That being one who had alwaies bin so faithful to the Parliament and so well known to most of the Gentlemen there present that nevertheless he should be sent for with a party of Horse and Foot to the affrighting of his Family and ruine of his credit And that he could not be satisfied but that if was very hard measure to be used thus upon suspition onely And that if they did hold him under restraint from following his business and occasions it might be his undoing which he conceived they ought seriously to consider of Then M. Bradshaw said he was to answer the question and that they did not ask it as in way of Tryal so as to proceed in Judgement thereupon but to report it to the House To which M. Walwin said That he had answered it so as he could with a good Conscience and could make no other Answer and so with-drew And after he came out to me M. Overton was next called in againe and then M. Prince so after we were all come out and all foure in a roome close by them all alone I laid my eare to their dore and heard Lieutenant General Cromwel I am sure of it very loud thumping his fist upon the Councel Table til it rang againe and heard him speak in these very words or to this effect I tel you Sir you have no other way to deale with these men but to break them in pieces and thumping upon the Councel Table againe he said Sir let me tel you that which is true if you do not breake them they will break you yea and bring all the guilt of the blood and treasure shed and speâ—t in this Kingdom upon your heads and shoulders and frustrate and make voide all that worke that with so many yeares industry toile and paines you have done and so render you to all rationall men in the world as the most contemptible generation of silly low spirited men in the earth to be broken and routed by such a despicable contemptible generation of men as they are and therfore Sir I tel you againe you are necessitated to break them but being a little disturbed by the supposition of one of their Messengers coming into the roome I could not so well heare the answer to him which I think was Col. Ludlows voyce who pressed to baile us for I could very well heare him say what would you have more than security for them Vpon which discourse of Cromwels the blood run up and down my veines and I heartily wisht my self in againe amongst them being scarse able to contain my self that so I might have gone five or six stories higher than I did before yea as high as I intended when I came to their dore and to have particularly paid Cromwel and Hasleridge to the purpose for their late venome not only against me in the House but my whole family Hasleridge saying as I am informed in the open House there was never an one of the Lilburns family fit or worthy to be a Constable in England though I am confident there is not the worst of us alive that have served the Parliament but he is a hundred times more just honest and unspoted than he himself as in due time I shal make it appeare by Gods assistance I hope to his shame But the faire carriage of the Gentlemen of the supposed Councel to me at the first tooke off the height of the edge of my spirit and intended resolution which it may be they shal have the next time to this effect You your selves have already voted the People under God the Fountain and Original of all just power And if so then none can make them Laws but those that are chosen impowred and be trusted by them for that end and if that be true as undoubtedly it is I desire to know how the present Gentlemen at Westminster can make it appeare they are the peoples Representatives being rather chosen by the wil of him whose head as a Tyrant and Traytor they have by their wills chopt off I mean the King then by the people whose Will made the Borough Townes to chuse Parliament men and there by rob'd above nineteen people of this Nation of their undubitable and inherent right to give to a single man in twenty for number in reference to the whole Nation a Monopoly to chuse Parliament men disfranchising therereby the other nineteen and if so in any measure than this upon their own declared principles they are no Representative of the people no nor was not at the first Again the King summoned them by his Writ the issue of his will and pleasure and by vertue of that they sit to this houre Again the King by his Will and pleasure combines with them by an Act to make them a perpetual Parliament one of the worst and tyranicallest actions that ever he did in his life to sit as long as they pleased which he nor they had no power to do in the least the very constitution of Parliaments in England being to be once every yeare or oftner if need require Quere Whether this act of perpetuating this Parliament by the Parliament men themselves beyond their Commission was not an act in them of the highest Treason in the world against the People and their liberties by setting up themselves an arbitrary power over them for ever Yea and thereby razing the foundation and constitution of Parliament it self And if so then this is nul if at the first it had bin any thing Again if it should be granted this Parliament at the beginning had a legal constitution from the people the original and fountaine of all just power yet the Faction of a trayterous
which we did accordingly and so marched with him into the Tower where coming up to the Lieut. house and after salutes each of other with very much civility the Lieut. read his Warrants and M. Walwin as our appointed mouth acquainted him that we were Englishmen who had hazarded all we had for our Liberties Freedoms for many yeers together and were resolved though Prisoners not to part with an inch of our Freedoms that with strugling for we could keep and therefore we should neither pay fees nor chamber rent but what the Law did exactly require us neither should we eate or drink of our own cost and charges so long as we could fast telling him it was our unquestionable right by Law and the custom of this place to be provided for out of the publike Treasure although we had never so much mony in our pockets of our own which he granted to be true and after some more debate I told him we were not so irrational as to expect that he out of his own money should provide for us but the principal end of our discourse with him was to put words in his mouth from our selves he being now our Guardian to move the Parliament or Councel of State about us which he hath acquainted us he did to the Councel of State who he saith granted the King or former times used to provide for the Prisoners but I say they will not be so just as he was in that particular although they have taken off his head for tyranny yet they must and will be greater Tyrants than he yea and they have resolved upon the Question that he shall be a Traytor that shall but tell them of their tyranny although it be never so visible So now I have brought the Reader to my old and contented Lodging in the Tower where within two or three dayes of our arrival there came one M. Richardson a Preacher amongst those unnatural un-English-like men that would now help to destroy the innocent and the first promoters in England as Cromwels beagles to do his pleasure of the first Petition for a Personal Treaty almost 2 yeers ago and commonly stile themselves the Preachers to the 7 Churches of Anabaptists which Richardson pretending a great deal of affection to the Common wealth to Cromwel to us prest very hard for union and peace and yet by his petition since this endeavors to hang us teling us men cryed mightily out upon us abroad for grand disturbers that sought Crom. bloud for al his good service to the Nation and that would center no where but meerly laboured to pul down those in power to set up our selves And after a little discourse with him being all 4. present and retorting all he said back upon those he seemed to plead for before several witnesses we appealed to his own conscience whether those could intend any hurt or tyrannie to the people that desires and earnestly endeavours for many yeers together that all Magistrates hands might be bound and limited by a just law and rule with a penalty annexed unto it that in case they outstrip their rule they might forset life estate and that al Magistrates might be chosen by the free people of this Nation by common consent according to their undubitable right often removed that so they might not be like standing waters subject to corruption and that the people might have a plain easie short and known Rule amongst themselves to walk by but such men were all we and therefore justly could not be stiled disturbers of any but onely such as sought to rule over the people by their absolute Wills and pleasures and would have no bounds or limits but their lusts and so sought to set up a perfect tyranny which we absolutely did and stil do charge upon the great men in the Army and are ready before indifferent Judges to make it good And as for seeking ourselves we need no other witnesses but some of our present adversaries in the House whose great preffered places and courtship by themselves and their Agents some of us have from time to time slighted scorned and contemned till they would conclude to come to a declared and resolved center by a just Agreement of the People there being no other way now in the World to make this Nation free happy or safe but that alone And as for Cromwels bloud although he had dealt basely enough with some of us in times by-past by thirsting after ours without cause of whom if revenge had bin our desire we could have had it the last yeer to the purpose especially when his quondam Darling Maj. Huntington Maj. to his own Regiment impeached him of Treason to both Houses yet so deer was the good of our native Country to us to whom we judged him then a serviceable Instrument to ballance the Scots that we laid all revenge aside hoping his often dissembled Repentances was real indeed and M. Holland himself now his favorite if his 1000. or 1500. l. per annum of the Kings Lands that now he enjoys did not make him forget himself can sufficiently testifie and witness our unwearied and hazardous Activity for Cromwels particular preservation the last yeer when his great friends in the House durst not publikely speak for him And whereas it is said we will Center no where we have too just cause to charge that upon them the whole stream of all our Actions as we told Richardson being a continued Declaration of our earnest Desires to come to a determinate and fixed center one of us making sufficient propositions to that purpose to the Councel of State at our last being there and all our many and late proffers as to that particular they have hitherto rejected as no waies consistent with their tyranical and selfish ends and designs and have given us no other answer in effect but the sending our bodies prisoners to the Tower and therefore we judged it infinitely below us as we told him and that glorious cause the Peoples Liberties and Freedoms that we are now in bonds for for which we suffer to send any message but a defiance by him or any other to them Yet to let him know as one we judged honest and our friend we were men of reason moderation and justice and sought nothing particularly for our selves more than our common share in the common freedom tranquility and peace of the land of our Nativity We would let him know we had a two fold Center and if he pleased of and from himself to let our Adversaries know we were willing our adversaries should have their choise to which of the two they would hold us to And therefore said we in the first place The Officers of the Army have already compiled and published to the view of the Nation an Agreement of the people which they have presented to the present Parliament against which we make some exceptions which exceptions are contained in our Addresses Now let them but mend
R. Overt Sir I humbly desire a word or two more Lieut. Gen. Let him have liberty Presid Mr. Overton You may speak on R. Over Gentlemen for future peace and securitie sake I shall humbly desire to offer this unto your consideration namely that if you think it meet That you would chuse any four men in England pick and chuse where you please and we for my part I speak it freely in my own behalf and I think I may say as much in theirs shall endeavour to the utmost of our power by a fair and moderate Discourse to give the best account and satisfaction concerning the matter of difference betwixt us that we can that if possible peace and agreement may be made And this after the weaknesse of my small understanding I judge to be a fair and reasonable way if you shall be pleased to accept of it you may if not you may use your pleasure I am in your hand do with me as you think good I am not able to hinder you Presid Mr. Overton If this be all you have to say withdraw R. Overt Sir I have said So I was commanded into a little withdrawing room close by the Councel and I supposed they would have taken my motion into consideration But after I had been there a while I was ordered to the Room again where Lieut. Col. Lilburn Mr. Walwins c. were And now that it may be clear unto the whole world that we heartily desire the prevention and cessation of all differences and divisions that may be bred and break forth in the Land to the hazard if not actuall imbroilment thereof in a new exundation of blood in the prosecution of this controversie wee do freely from the heart that heaven and earth may bear witnesse betwixt our integrity to the peace of the Common-wealth and their dealings with us make this proffer as to be known to the whole world that wee in the first place I may best speak for my self and I so far know the minds of Lieutenant Col. John Lilburn Mr. Walwine and Mr. Prince that I may as freely speak it in their behalfs wil by the Assistance of God give any four men in England that they shall chuse although the Lieutenant General and the Commissarie Generall be two of them a free and moderate debate if they shall think it no scorn touching all matters of difference betwixt us as to the businesse of the Common-wealth for therein doth consist the controversie betwixt us that if possibly new flames and combustions may be quenched and a thorow and an hearty composure be made betwixt us upon the grounds of an equall and just Government And that the businesse may be brought to a certain issue betwixt us let them if they please chuse two Umpires out of the House or else-where and we will chuse two and for our parts we shall stand to the free determination or sentence that these four or any three of them shall passe betwixt us Or else if they please but to center upon The Agreement of the People with amendments according to our late sad Apprehensions presented to the House upon the 26 of February 1648 for our parts we shall seal a Contract of Oblivion for all by-past matters relating either to good name life libertie or estate saving of making Accompt for the publick Monies of the Common-wealth And in such an Agreement we will center to live and die with them in the prosecution thereof And if this be not a fair and peaceable motion let all well-minded people judge But if nothing will satisfie them but our bloud we shall not through the might of God be sparing of that to give witnesse to the Right and Freedom of this Common-wealth against their Usurpation and Tyranny but let them know this That Building hath a bad Foundation that is laid in the bloud of honest men such as their own knowledge and consciences bear them record are faithfull to the common interest and safety of the People out of our ashes may possibly arise their destruction This I know God is just and he will repay the bloud of the innocent upon the head of the Tyrant But to return to the Narrative After some small space that we had all been before them we were called in again first Lieut. Col. John Lilburn then Mr. Walwine and then my self And coming before them the second time Mr. Bradshaw spake to this effect Presid Mr. Overton The Councel hath taken your Answer into consideration and they are to discharge their dutie to the Parliament who hath ordered them to make enquity after the Book intituled The second part of England's new Chains c. and thereof they are to give an account to the House And the Councel hath ordered me to put this question unto you Whether you had an hand in the contriving or publishing this Book or no R. Overt Sir I well remember that since you cut off the King's head you declared or at least the Parliament from whence you pretend the derivation of your Authoritie that you would maintain the known fundamentall Laws of the Land and preserve them inviolable that the meanest member of this Common wealth with the greatest might freely and fully enjoy the absolute benefit thereof Now Gentlemen it is well known and that unto your selves that in cases criminall as now you pretend against me it is against the fundamentall Laws of this Common-wealth to proceed against any man by way of Interrogatories against himself as you do against me and I beleeve Gentlemen were you in our cases you would not be willing to be so served you selves what you would have other men do unto you that do you unto them So that for my part Gentlemen I do utterly refuse to make answer unto any thing in in relation to my own person or any man or men under heaven but do humbly desire that if you intend by way of Charge to proceed to any Triall of me that it may be as before I desired at your hands by the known established Law of England in some ordinary Court of Justice appointed for such cases extraordinary waies being never to be used but abominated where ordinarie waies may be had and I shall freely submit to what can be legally made good against me But I desire that in the mean time you would be pleased to take notice that though in your eye I seem so highly criminal as by those Votes you pretend yet am I guiltie of nothing not of this paper intituled The second part of England's new Chains in case I had never so much an hand in it till it be legally proved for the Law looketh upon no man to be guiltie of any crime till by law he be convicted so that I cannot esteem my self guiltie of any thing till by the Law you have made the same good against me And further Sir I desire you to take notice that I cannot be guiltie of the transgression of any Law
which stood nigh unto my door and perceiving them in the street and lane I laught heartily to see so many armed men come for me I told the Lieutenant Col. one man with a Legal Warrant had been sufficient The Lieutenant said they had special Order upon their peril to come I told him to come in that manner was suitable to his unjust Warrant And I also told him my name is Prince and that it was usual for Princes to have great attendance The Lieutenant Collonel gave a Captain charge of me to bring me to Paul's yard which was performed with a strong Guard following close unto us after a very little time came my Friend Lieut. Col. John Lilburn and Mr. William Walwyn after salutations betwixt us we went from thence with Adjutant General Stubbard to White-Hall and there with a very strong Guard of Soldiers was brought unto us our Friend Mr Richard Overton and there we were kept prisoners until about five a Clock in the afternoon at that time with a Guard of Souldiers we were brought to Darby-house within two hours after we had been there I was called for I presently went as was desired into a room where I see about ten or twelve men sitting about a large Table after I had given them a full view I put off my Hat I was spoke unto to go nigh Mr Bradshaw which I did Mr Bradshaw said unto me Here is the Votes of Parliament against that printed paper entituled The second part of Englands new Chains discovered which Mr Bradshaw gave unto Mr Frost to read it to me which he did Mr Bradshaw likewise told me Here is an Order of Parliament giving power to this Councel of State to finde out and examine the Authors Framers and Contrivers of the aforesaid paper and to deal with them as they shall see cause This Councel is informed that you are one of the Authors Framers or Contrivers of the aforesaid Paper and you are required to give your Answer After a little silence I said these words or to this effect Sir I am an Englishman and therefore lay claim to all the Rights and Liberties which belongeth unto an English man and God gave me such knowledg that in the very first beginning of the late Wars I gave my cheerful assistance against those that would rule over the people by their own wills and upon that account I adventured my life and lost much blood in defence of the Common-wealth and all along to this day have assisted in person and purse to my utmost abilities and I am the same man still to withstand Tyranny in any whomsoever Sir I hate no man in the world only the evil in any man I hate Sir all those good things which my conscience and my actions will witness I have done in behalf of the Common-wealth I desire they may be all layd aside and not come in the ballance as to hinder any punishment that can be afflicted upon me for breaking any known Law Sir that which makes a man an offender is for breach of a Law and that Law ought to be made before the offence is committed Sir Although I have fought and assisted against the wills and tyranny of men yet I have not fought to overthrow the known Laws of the Land for if there be no Law to protect my Estate Liberty and Life but to be left to the will of men to the power of the Sword to be abused at pleasure as I have been this day contrary to Law being fetcht from my wife and family Sir by the same rule you may send for my wife and children and for all my estate and the next time if you please to destroy all my neighbors nay all in the City and so from County to County until you destroy as many as you please Sir I have heard talk of Levellers but I am sure this is levelling indeed and I do here before you abhor such doings and I do protest against them Sir There is a known Law in this Land if I have wronged any man let him take his course in Law against me I fear not what any man in England can do to me by Law and Sir the Law I lay claim unto as my right to protect me from violence Sir the Parliament hath lately declared they would maintain the Law but I am sure their and your dealing by me declares to the contrary Mr Bradshaw said Is this your Answer I said Yes then I was commanded to withdraw After some space I was called in again Mr Bradshaw asked me if I did own or deny that Paper entituled The second part of Englands new Chains discovered and to this I was required by that Councel to give my Answer To which I replyed Sir At the beginning of the Parliament it was declared how destructive it was for any man to be examined upon Interrogatories and Sir if they had not Declared it it is my right not to be examined against my self Sir God hath given me this understanding not to wrong my Neighbour nor my Self if my right hand should take away and betray the liberty of my left I would cut it off Sir the people who is the Originall of all Just Power hath not given any such power to the Parliament as to examine men against themselves in criminall Causes the Parliament cannot give that to others they have not Sir as I said before if any man in England hath any thing against me let them take their course by Law Sir the Law doth prescribe Rules for the Offender to be brought before a Justice of Peace and after the Justice hath examined witnesses upon Oath before the party apprehended if the offence although proved upon oath be Bayleable the Justice is to take Bayle if the Justice refuse the party may arrest the Justice and have his cost by Law against him if not Bayleable the party is to be sent to prison and there to be kept untill the next Session or Assises and not during pleasure Sir I never heard of any Law that gives you or any of these Gentlemen that sit here any just Authoritie to call me here in this manner before you Master Bradshaw said Is this your Answer I answered yes then I was bid withdraw About an hour after news was brought unto us That we were to be sent Prisoners to the Tower upon suspition of High Treason we disputed with the Officer and shewed he had no Legall Warrant to carry us thither as prisoners notwithstanding by the power of the sword we were brought Prisoners to the Tower of London where we are Rejoycing that we are counted worthy to suffer in bearing Testimony for the Freedome of the People against their Usurpation and Tyrannie Tho Prince From the Tower of London this 1. day of April 1649. FINIS