a conjunction the ends of Church society cannot be had which are solemn worship and mutual Edification Ans What not without a conjunction with the catholick visible Church certainly meetings for solemn worship and mutuall Edification are not terms wherein Christians hold communion with the catholick visible Church for they are proper only to particular worshiping congregations I wonder in what Assemblies do the Christians in England and the Christians in Prestor Johns country meet for solemn worship and mutual Edification I know he thinks the matter if salved by telling us that Christians meeting in any congregation in England for worship and mutual Edification do thereby hold externall communion in those things with the whole Church throughout the world But I conceive this will not serve his turn without the could equally imagine how a man by holding communion with the City of London might be said thereby to hold a civil external communion with all mankind which I think is so wild a conceit as no man yet ever asserted for he must remember he is speaking of such an external communion that is proper to a politick visible Body to the constituting of which kind of communion it is not enough to have the same laws the same customes no nor the same kind of solemn meetings for worship to speak all visible Christians to be of the same external politick communion for suppose in France they had the same laws and customs the same kind of officers as Constables Justices Parliament and a King as we have in England and all under the Government of the very same invisible God it doth not follow so long as there is no dependance of these Kingdomes each on the other that therefore the people of England are of the same external politick communion with those in France Yea further though these two Kingdoms may mutually in times of peace advise with each other for their mutual profits and in case of differences betwixt them they may forbid trading or converse with each other which is a kind of civil excommunication yet for all this they may not be said to be of the same external civil politick communion and why because their respective Magistrates are independent and have no jurisdiction over each other Upon the very same ground I deny any such thing as an external Politick Communion betwixt the Members of the Catholick Church for though they have all the same Laws the same Sacraments the same kind of solemn meetings for Worship and all under the same kind of visible Governours and all this under the same invisible Head the Lord Jesus though so far as they can and the distances of places will admit they may advise with each other for their mutual good and in case that any prove Hereticks they may so far as may be disown or refuse Communion as in the instances before said yet all this no more proves them to be of the same external Politick communion than the like agreements might speak the Kingdom of France and that of England of the same politick civil communion and why but because Christ hath left no visible politick Head to have jurisdiction over the rest If you say this notion speaks a good word for the Headship of the Pope I Answer no such matter for there is no need of such a Head nor of any such external Politick Communion in the Church no more than in the World God hath well enough Governed the World without any such Universal civil Monarch and doth as well govern the Church without any such Universal visible Head And now let us see what of force then is in his second reason which is this such a conjunction in external Communion with he Catholick visible Church is necessary else we cannot possibly partake of the priviledges that Christ hath made over to this his Church as the Remission of Sins and the Graces of the Holy Spirit I Answer He says that Christ hath made over the priviledges of pardon of sin and the Graces of his Spirit to the Church primarily and that before any particular person can partake of pardon of Sin and the Graces of the Spirit he must joyn with the Church in external Communion But how absurd is all this by Church he here means the Catholick visible Church but I wonder how it can be truly said that pardon of sin or the Graces of the Spirit can be said to be made over to the visible Church as priviledges when as it is very certain that Christ never made over such priviledges to the Church as visible But I perceive he understands it ministerially that is to say that a man is pardoned or partake of the Graces of the Spirit but by the Ministry of the Church well let this be granted what will thence follow I am sure that will not follow which you say doth follow that therefore we must first be made Members of the Church before we can be pardoned or sanctifyed by the Spirit for suppose the Church meets for solemn worship and the minister is Preaching and there comes in one or more Infidels for curiosity to see and hear I hope you will not say that these Infidels because they are in the same place with the Church that therefore they are joyned as Members with the Church suppose now these Infidels are by the Sermon convinced and perfectly converted to a true Faith in Jesus Christ I now demand These men that thus are converted do they believe without or with the Grace of the Spirit again so soon as they have believed are they pardoned or are they not I say they could not have believed without the Grace of the Spirit and that so soon as they truly believed they were pardoned and you dare not I think say the contrary Now I pray you is not this Grace of the Spirit and pardoning of sin Communicated before these men were joyned to the Church as visible Members How then can you say that men are obliged to joyn with the Church as Members else they have neither Grace nor pardon the very Truth is the primary reason of Christs institution of visible Church Membership was not for the giving of the first Grace of the Spirit or giving pardon but it was appointed as a means of conveying further degrees of Grace and clearer assurance of pardon visible Church Membership doth suppose the Grace of conversion in the adult and pardon but doth not give or Communicate it I had now done with his first Proposition but that for two inferences he draws from a consideration of the whole as first saith he therefore their position is untrue who maintain that our obligation to Church Communion ariseth from a voluntary admission of our selves into some particular congregation But I say notwithstanding all he hath said that position may be true for he hath been all this while speaking of the Universal visible Church But they that hold that position maintain it only with respect to a particular Church
us lies which the Fundamental Laws of Society and the expresse precepts of Christianity require of every Member Answ I would now fain know of him what are those Fundamental Laws of Society as suppose of Kingdomes or Corporations that oblige its Subjects or Citizens to seek the Unity and Peace of those Societies or Citizens to seek the Unity the known Laws of the said Kingdoms and the orders of Corporations regulated by the Charters granted by their Princes but if any inferiour Officers of Kingdoms or Corporations shall impose Laws upon the Subjects or Citizens that are not agreeable to but rather seem contrary to the Laws of the Kingdom and the Power granted in those Charters if such Subjects or Citizens oppose and refuse subjection and will not communicate in those things who dare say that such do not seek the Peace of Kingdoms and Corporations as much as in them lies or as much as is fit And let him likewise tell us what are those expresse precepts of Christianity that oblige its Members any further to seek the Unity of the Church than to believe do and observe those things which Christ the Head of his Church hath commanded Christians then seek the Unity of the Body so far as in them lies when they seek it according to a Gospel rule for it doth not lye in their Power to seek it any other ways But saith he to separate from Congregations with whom we may lawfully Communicate is not to seek the Vnity of the Body so far as in us lies Answ This is not universally true for what if one shifteth his Habitation to another Parish for the benefit of the Labours of a more pious Minister here is a separation from an established Assembly and yet no breach upon the Unity of the Body But suppose one still abides in the Parish and yet constantly Hears and Communicates with a Church of an other Parish as I suppose some of your own do how can you say such so long as they continue Communion with your National Church seek not the Union of the Body as sar as is fit or needful If you say but neither of these are the cases of those you speak of because they hold Communion with you to be sinful Very true and you deny not that in case they could not Communicate with you without sin but that they may lawfully separate without being guilty of any breach of union If you had here proved they might hold Communion with you without sin or what they extreamly suspect to be sinful you had said something but since you have reserved your pretended proof thereof to the fourth Proposition I shall therefore referre my answer thereto His third Proposition That the being a Member of any Church doth oblige a man to submit to all the Laws and Constitutions of that Church I Answer if by Laws and Constitutions he understands such that Christ either by himself or his Apostles hath ordained such as to meet together to Pray Praise Preach Hear Baptize or Eat the Lords Supper or to Admonish Comfort Reprove or cast out the Obstinate so I grant the Truth of the Proposition But if by Laws and Constitutions he means such that are meerly of mens devising and imposing under the penalty of Excommunication without any command from Christ for so doing of which kind are the Observations of Days Abstaining from Meats Crossing in Baptism Kneeling at the Supper Reading Prayers and that in a Surplice without the use and observation whereof it shall not be lawful for men to Preach the Gospel or partake of the Sacrament but for refusal shall be cast out and not esteemed worthy of the name of Christians In this sence I say the proposition is very false And whereas he saith that this Proposition is in the general so unquestionable that no sober man will deny it I on the contrary say that in the general without a sound limitation it is so mischievous that no sober man but may be ashamed to assert it For who will deny but that our Saviour with his Apostles were of the Church of the Jews and who dares say that either Christ or they thought themselves obliged to observe the humane Laws and Traditions of that Church either in washing before Meat or in not Healing on the Sabbath-day which Traditions they made no scruple to transgresse and to justifie such Transgression to the shame and confusion of their Imposers Again who knows not that the Rulers of the Jewish Church had agreed and so made it a Constitution of that Church that if any confessed Christ he should be cast out of the Synagogue and what Christian hath the Forehead to say that all the Members of that Church were obliged thereby not to confesse Christ or to bear any part in casting out such as did confesse him from their Synagogues He adds this is the Basis upon which all Societies are founded and by which they do subsist He means that the Truth of that Proposition is at the bottom of all Societies whether Civil or Ecclesiastical but I pray how is it the Basis of Kingdoms which are civil Societies Thus far I grant that all the just Laws Enacted by the supream Power in such Kingdoms do oblige all the Subjects Answerably all the Laws and Constitutions in the Church that are Enacted by Jesus Christ its supream King and Governour do bind all the Members But in civil Societies if the Inferiour Magistrates as suppose the Heads of Corporations shall Enact Laws and make Constitutions and bind them on the Subjects so as in case of refusal to submit they shall be deprived of the right and priviledges of Subjects and that without any Authority from the supreme Power for so doing I say in this case that this Proposition is so far from being the Basis of these Societies without which they cannot subsist that I say it 's the Basis of all Confusion to such Societies answerably if any Officers of Churches shall presume without warrant from Christ to make Laws and bind them on the Disciples necks upon the penalties of depriving them of the rights and priviledges of Christians as they do by excommunication I say this is a meer usurpation of the Regall power of Christ and tends directly to run Churches into confusion and all manner of disorders as the sad Effects thereof do cleerly demonstrate And whereas he saith To suppose a Society and yet to suppose the members of it not under an obligation to obey its Laws and Government is to make Ropes of sand and to suppose a body without sinews and ligaments to hold the parts together I Answer That t is confessed that the just Laws of the supream Authority of any Society are Sinews and Ligaments of that society But if the Laws be either unjust or imposed by any Authority inferiour to the Supream such Laws are not the natural sinews in any Government but are certain Monstrosities in the body politick as such kind of Sinews
SEPARATION YET NO Schisme OR NON-CONFORMISTS NO SCHISMATICKS BEING A full and Sober VINDICATION of the NON-CONFORMISTS from the Charge and Imputation of SCHISME IN Answer to a Sermon lately Preached before the Lord Mayor By J. S. Isaiah 66.5 Hear the Word of the Lord ye that tremble at his Word your Brethren that hated you that cast you out for my Names sake said Let the Lord be glorified but he shall appear to your joy and they shall be ashamed London Printed in the year 1675. To the Reader Reader IF thou wouldst have a reason of publishing these sheets the Author will tell thee That it is now about four years since the People he pleads for among whom he believes there are thousands in the Land that are Worshippers of God in Spirit and Truth according to the Gospel have through the good Providence of their great Shepherd the Lord Jesus Christ and through the granted license of an indulgent Prince enjoyed a sweet and blessed Calm But observing lately the Clouds again to gather and to have begun to discharge themselves upon many of this People about England and withal lately meeting with a Sermon wherein this People are not sparingly charged with Schism and the penalties where with the laws threaten them are pleaded for as very innocent harmless things that Sober men as he says may be ashamed to call persecutions I could not but thence conclude that the Authors drift was to stir up and encourage the chief Magistrates of the City for to them the Sermon was preached to a rigorous Execution of those gentle punishments which are but such little things as banishing or imprisoning or spoyling them of their Goods and so undoing them and their Families which are very trifles in his account Now what can probably be the consequents hereof except the Magistrates as David prove wiser than their Teachers but that this people must needs be smitten impoverished scattered and as to their outward concernments ruined But if this shall come to passe and who knows what their God may permit for a time for their tryal what will they have left to support and comfort them under such pressures except the innocency of their Consciences and the Righteousness of the cause for which they suffer And this I say whether their cause be good or bad doth not as to the determination depend upon the meer dictates of any Mortals and I am very verily perswaded it is not prsedtsdih be bad by all this Author hath said although he ha oved to cour and reasoned against it as if in his conceit he had spoke nothing but demonstrations which I should now have immediately begun to reply to but that I thought it most expedient first to give the Reader a view of the case and cause of the Non-conformists for which they are charged of Schism and are thought to have deserved all those severities which the law threatens The Non-Conformists case is this There are some hundreds of true Ministers of Jesus Christ commissioned by him to Preach the Gospel and to administer the Sacraments for so all true Ministers are those according to their commission do Preach and there are many thousands likewise of visible professors of Christianity do willingly hear and joyn with these Ministers in the Worship of God and in a participation of Sacraments as the Gospel requires These meet in dictinct Congregations separate from the legally established Congregations in the Land with whom they Will not because they Cannot hold Communion Because they thus separate and refuse Communion they are charged with Schisme The reason why they thus separate and refuse Communion is because they cannot have it with them I say they Cannot have it because they cannot or ought not to sin or to speak modestly because they cannot do such things which they extreamly suspect to be sinful and if they do but strongly suspect them it is enough for no man can be bound to act against a doubting Conscience and herein I have the suffrage of the Apostle which every good Christian ought much to preferre before any other who may presume to Philosophize to the contrary who says Rom. 14. he that doubteth is damned if he eat because he eateth not of Faith for whatsoeover is not of Faith is sin If it be demanded what those things are which this people suspect as sinful It may be answered they are too well known as that any among us should stand in need of an information but briefly those that are Ministers either they suspect the sinfulness of admitting a re-ordination or of abjuring or of assenting and consenting to the use of all and every part of the Liturgy and therein of every Ceremony Now this I say though the Friends of these impositions shall with the highest confidence affirm the lawfulness of them all yea and endeavour with a thousand arguments to prove them such yet if those Ministers herein concerned upon a serious weighing of these arguments find them too light and after much prayer to God for a resolution yet find themselves to doubt in this case they ought not upon the Apostles rule now named to yeild to any such impositions against their doubting Consciences If it be here replyed why do they not then degrade themselves or quietly suffer themselves to be degraded of their Ministry and in the condition of private Christians Communicate with this Church for so they may do and free themselves from these impositions It will be answered that this is an imposition they suspect as sinful as the rest for so long as they are perswaded that their mission is originally from Christ they cannot believe that it is either in their own Power or in the Power of any other Inferiour to Christ to give them a discharge from executing this their Office except it be for Heresie or obstinate scandal against some known laws of Christ and then indeed Christ hath left an order not only for excluding them from their Office but also from the Church but neither of these latter are in the least pretended and therefore it is they cannot without suspicion of sin either degrad themselves or quietly suffer themselves to be degraded And still I adde if any reasons be urged for the lawfulness of this degradation but such that are short of their conviction so that still they doubt it will continue yet their duty to serve the Church as Ministers and not to list themselves among private Christians as is advised If it be asked but may not supream Magistrates if they cannot divest Ministers of their Office may not they within their Dominion suspend some of them from the exercise thereof when they conceive it is for the Peace of the rest It will be answered that that Lord of Lords who giveth the Office and the Commission and hath by divers Providences designed the men thereto hath certainly with the Office designed them to the exercise thereof for else verily the Office is in vain and hath
Communion with a Church of which we are members where we may continue without sin I Answer Whatever may be thought of this position I am perswaded that the reason annext is too weak to bear the weight of it for the reason supposeth that which is not to be supposed that is to say that to withdraw from a Church for the benefit of a more profitable Ministry is a Crime You call it a crime because you suppose it is a transgression of the Law of visible Communion with some particular Church but I say that the Laws of Visible Communion with this or that Particular Church are but positive and therefore subordinate to laws more naturall and necessary such is that wherein we are commanded to take care of our souls and salvation So that if Christians do shift particular Churches for the obtaining of very apparent advantages to their Salvation above what they could have had where they were I see therein no crime at all committed except such an one wherewith the Pharisees charged our Saviour as the Breaking of the Sabbath that he might heal the sick Certainly the cure and Salvation of sick Souls as of sick Bodies is of greater account with God than keeping to Parish Churches or the observation of a day Sure I am that very many Souls that have for many years lain Blind and Dead in trespasses under their Parish Ministers I speak not partially as to those only that are now in place but formerly when the Non-conformists held their places but upon changing of their Minister received their conviction and reall Conversion I dare say it would be a very hard Task to convince such of the sin of separation in so doing I have much wondered that men should think it but reasonable that every man should be permitted to chuse his own Physitian and who will blame one that is sickly if he waveing the advice of his Neighbour though a Physitian shall apply himself to the most skillfull and successfull that he can hear of for his health yet that it should be accounted so criminal to use the same care for a mans salvation And what though the Physitian I speak of be not of the Colledg nor can be suffered to be thereof because perhaps he will not swear to the truth of all the Aphorisms of Hypocrates or the truth of all and every part of the Colledges dispensations who think you will stand upon such a Nicety if he yet believes him exceeding skillfull and successefull in the cure of such distempers under which he groaneth and certainly when you have writ your self a weary to prove the contrary yet men herein will follow the Conduct of their Reason and the instinct of Self-Preservation which is not only seen verified among the Non-conformists but among your selves What else is the reason that some of your own Churches are thronged with auditors when in others the People sit thinly scattered like the gleanings ofter Harvest and I think it almost as easie to stop the Sun in its course or the Sea in its flowing as to prevent these concourses of the People to such Ministers that are eminently most able and successefull Thus much I have said concerning the Reasonableness of forsaking Communion with one Church for the obtaining a more profitable ministry in another The next thing to be examined is that which you have said concerning the unlawfullness of for saking one Church to enjoy a more pure Discipline in an other To this I say it must be confessed that a regular execution of Church Discipline as it was ordained by Christ for great ends So when so executed it is found of very great use and benefit to the Church for thereby is there a means provided to inform the ignorantly sinning members to correct the Wilfull to reclaim Apostates to establish and confirm the sound that their Souls may be saved in the day of the Lord Christ And certainly a neglect of this Discipline must be a very dangerous consequence to a Church and to the Salvation of its members And therefore if Christians withdraw from such a Church where this Discipline is next to wholly neglected to joyn with another where it is exercised to the great advantage of its members I see no sin therein as this author imagineth For shall I say the Law of Self-preservation is superior to the Law of Visible Union to a Particular Church and therefore must firstly be obeyed May Parents Lawfully Change a School for their Children where the Schollars by connivance are suffered to Curse and Swear c. and yet are kept in the School especially if great Mens Children perhaps some poor mans childe for some one of these sins may now and then be cast out but readmited upon very slender satisfaction I say may Parents in this case tendering the Souls of their Children remove them to another and yet be blameless I wonder then why it should be so Criminal for a Christian to remove from such a Church where such sins are in like manner tollerated for the benefit of a better Disciplined Church True if Learning was as necessary as Christianity and if no other School could be had it were better their Children to be kept in such a School than to be suffered to run about the streets to their more certain ruine For the Rule of Practice to every Christian in this case is of two evils to choose the least But as things stand with us in England there are more pure Disciplined Churches to be had and therefore no Christian can be thought to be in such straits If ye say these more pure Disciplined Churches are irregular as not having the Establishment of an humane Law I answer it is not necessary For the Constitution of Churches and their Establishment is founded on a Law of Christ and not on Humane Laws Christs Ministers have a right to Preach the Gospell and Gather Churches and Govern them by his Rules without the leave of any Magistrates The powers of the Earth may be Nursing Fathers to the Church but as such they neither give them their Being or Constitution When Christ sent the first Preachers of the Gospell to Discipline Nations and gather to him Churches he did not direct them first to ask the Governours of those Nations leave so to do for his own Commission was warrant sufficient without their Licence but when God is pleased to stir up the hearts of Princes to give leave and encourage the work it is a great Blessing which Christs Ministers are to pray for and to be greatly thankfull when they have it Yet again I answer that those Churches are most Regular that are Taught and Governed with the greatest conformity to the Rule of Christ and if those of the Non-conformists prove such I know not why any should be blamed for joyning with them upon the account of their irregularity Thus have I answered this Fourth position of yours and have shewed how far an unprofitable Ministry and