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A45786 A dialogue between A. and B. two plain countrey-gentlemen, concerning the times Irvine, Alexander, d. 1703. 1694 (1694) Wing I1050; ESTC R8342 85,253 56

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But withal it seems you little consider that the greatest part of those that oppose King James's Right have no more Sence than that Post had Many Thousands there are in these Three Nations who are very confident and positive that 〈◊〉 has lost his Right and accordingly speak more opprobriously and reproachfully of him than either the Laws of the Land or good Manners will allow them to do of their Fellow-Subject and yet are so far from knowing how or by what means he lost it that they never 〈◊〉 much as considered it or thought themselves concerned o●nquire into it Of this Number I chiefly reckon the Rabble who however despicable in the Opinion of all ●hinking Men yets are such a necessary Support of your New Government and 〈◊〉 so great a●rigure in i● that I thought my self obliged to a l●w them one 〈◊〉 represent them in that supposed Trial which accordingly I did in bringing in that First Evidence The next that appears speaks somewhat more to the purpos for he not only asserts positively that the Plaintiff had lost his Right but pretends to give an account how he lost it namely That having abused his Power to very ill Purposes and stretched its Right beyond its due Limits even so sar as to devour and swallow up that of other Men they who thought themselves most nearly concerned to redress these Grievances though otherwise subject to his Authority being ●ully convinced that no other Remedy or Expedient would be effectual did unanimously agree together to depose him and deprive him of his Right which accordingly the did and lodged it in better Hands By this Witness is represented the Common-Wealth-Party which however much it was abominated or however justly decrved by all good Men in the last Age as having murthered the best of Kings and set up I had almost said the worst of U●urpers and by that mean● involved us in all the Calam●ties 〈◊〉 Bloody Civil War yet now is become very consid●rable in these three Nations insomuch that the King 's being accountable to the People and lyable to be deposed by them if he abuses his Trust and such other Anti-Monarchical and Republican Principles which formerly were only whispered about in Corner as being ashamed to see the Light are now publickly owned and even Factiously contended for Good God! What a strange what a reproachful Infatuation is it that both our Church and State should so far degenerate as not only to espouse the interest but indeed lick up the Vomit of those who have hitherto been accounted the most irreconcileable Enemies of both Whatever Stress your Convention laid upon King James's Abdication these Men I now speak of do but laugh 〈◊〉 it and tell us plainly by their A●voe te Julian Johnson that however the Convention might mince the Matter and amuse the Nation with a fine plausible S●o●y o● King James ' Abdicating the Government yet that 〈◊〉 there was no men matter but that he was really deposed and abrogated by the Estates of the Realm and that according to Law too though as ill Luck would have it when he comes to quote that Law he confesses it is not now to be found But that is not yet our Business It is sufficient at present to tell you that there is such a Parry among you and that it was to personate those of that Party that I brought in that witness in the Trial who contended that the Plaintiff having abused his Right was justly deposed and legally deprived of it The next Evidence tells That the Plaintiff himself receded from his Right and very fairly yielded it up which in King James's Case you very well know was the Opinion of that ●●o●cus Assembly the Convention They told 〈◊〉 That his re●●ring or withdrawing himself from among us was a plain Abu●cating the Government and leaving the Throne vacant by which they must either mean a voluntary Resignation of his Right or it will not serve their Turn But though Abdication is indeed the same Thing with Resignation yet they did not think fit to express it so very wisely foreseeing that a the word Resignation is more easily understood than Abdication so it would more hardly be believed for no man is ●o easily impo●ed upon in what he does unde●ra●d as in what he does not The Fourth and last Evidence contradict● both the former For though he also 〈◊〉 that the Plaintiff has certainly lost his Right yet he neither allow● that he himself resigned it up nor that any Persons could legally 〈◊〉 him of it and there 〈◊〉 is very postive that the way he lost it was by Forfeiture that by his M●●uemeanours he did absolutely forfeit i● By this Evidence is 〈◊〉 nor only a very considerable Party here 〈◊〉 England but likew●●e the whole Conv●●tion of Estates in Scotland who charge K. J's losing all his Right and Title to that Kingdom upon the Faults and Male-Administrations of his Government by which they declare he did absolutely for 〈◊〉 it Which 〈◊〉 however contrary to the express Laws as well of that as of this Kingdom is yet somewhat more plausible than either of the former being neither so ridiculously disingenuous as to interpret a King's forced Retreat for the Safety of his Life to be a voluntary Resignation of his Right nor so impudently saucy as to subject him to the Peoples Au●hority and put it in the Power o● his own Subjects to dethrone him But of there Things enough till we come to speak of them more directly All that I design at present is only to shew you that the Inconsistency of the Evidence in the former Tryal is not at all imputable to my managing of the Witnesses whereof I hope you are now convinced since by the Comparison I have made it easily appears that the Witnesses in the former Trial do not more disagree in their Testimony in declaring how the Plaintiff lost his Right than those of your Party do in asserting the loss o● King James's Right That the Inconsistencies and Contradictions are the very same in both Cases and consequently what was decided in the one Case ought by Parity o● Reason to take place in the other A. Whatever pains you have been at to make these two Case answerable to one another I am not yet satisfied but that there is so gr●a a Disparity between them even in some respects where the Parallel ought to hold that to argue from the one to the other us● needs be very inconclusive As for Example in your imaginary Trial you produce but one 〈…〉 Witness of each sort whose Testimony 〈…〉 nothin whereas in the other Case there are several Thousands of each sort This I take to be a very partial and unequal Representation 〈◊〉 what is in dispute of purpose to give the Judge some colourable Pretence to 〈◊〉 and reject the whole Evidence whereas 〈◊〉 two or three or more of those that were to be examined had agreed in their Testimony as grea● Numbers do
against Grievances to pretend a most tender Compassion for those that suffer them and a mighty Zeal for having of them redrest when yet it appears that those very Grievances are chiefly owing to the pernicious Counsels and mischievous Contrivances of such Perions as for that very purpose have been corrupted by such a Pretender is such a Master-piece o● Hypocrisy and Dissimulation as I think none but a Dutch-Man is capable of But why should I insist ●o long on these Things Let it be supposed that the Grievances we lay under during K James's Reign were really as great as they who maliciously aggravate them would make the World believe and that they were not in any measure to be imputed to the ill Conduct of his Counsellours and Ministers but were the effects of his own Natural Tempet and Inclination even that cannot justify the Measures that have been taken to redress these Grievances This brings us to the Consideration of the Second part of the former Pretence namely that because of these Grievances and Male-Administrations the Estates of the Realm did unanimously dethrone him In this are two Things to be examined First Matter of fact Secondly Matter of Right As or the Matter of Fact I must tell you that however confidently Mr. Johnson and they that adhere to him may affirm it there 's nothing of Truth in it The Convention did not go that way to work So far were they from assuming any Power or Authority over the King's Person so as to call him to an Account and judicially to depose him that they did not in the least pretend to it nor so much as mention it but went upon a quite different Ground as is very well known But besides that the Matter of Fact is not more false than the Matter of Right is defective That is to say I● they had done so de facto it had been de jure null and of none effect as being utterly unlawful I hope you will grant me that what is in it self unlawful ought not to be done and if it be done ought to be undone again A. If I do you will get nothing by it unless you can prove that it was utterly unlawful to dethrone King James even though he did not govern according to Law B. Very right But that I can easily prove both because there is no Law for it and likewise because there are express Laws against it First I say There is no Law or Statute that the Subjects or People of England can in any Case depose or dethrone their Lawful King This being a Negative Proposition it cannot be expected that I should prove it It lies upon your Party at least those of them that shelter themselves under this Pretence not only to produce such a Law but to make it appear that it has never yet been repealed till which time the Proposition will stand good against them 'T is true Mr. Johnson in his Argument does mention such a Statute and lays the greatest Stress of his Argument upon it and yet confesses afterward that whatever there might be formerly there is no such Thing now to be found which is enough for my purpose because not to be found and not to be in being are the same Thing in Law Secondly As there is no Law to warrant or authorise the Deposition of any of our Rightful Kings so there are express Laws against it Such is that of the 12. Car. 2. where it is declared That neither the Peers nor Commons nor both Houses together nor the People collectively nor representatively in Parliament or out of Parliament nor any other Persons whatsoever have any Coercive Power over the King of England And in the 13 Car. 2. it is declared That the Sword is solely in the King's Power and that neither one nor both Houses of Parliament can or lawfully may●aise or levy any War offensive or defensive against his Majesty To these I may add what is declared in the Act of uniformity namely That it is not lawful upon any pretence whatever to take up Arms against the King If it be said that there is nothing mentioned of dethroning of Kings in any of these Acts I have quoted and consequently that they are nothing to the purpose I answer That to dethrone a King is a degree of Rebellion beyond any thing mentioned in these Acts For the reason why Subjects do assume to themselves a coercive power over their King or pretend to take up Arms or levy War against him is that by these means they may dethrone him And if so it must needs be g●an●ed that the former being condemned by these Statutes the latter is much more so as being a higher degree of the same Crime So that they of your Party who found K. W's Right on the Peoples deposing of King James for Male-Administration have no imaginable way to evade the Force of these Laws I have mentioned unless they say that they are above all Laws and can dispence with them at their Pleasure which was one of the chief Things objected against him and what was thought absurd in him I am sure is much more so in them A. I hope you have now done with that Pretence for the Truth is I never much lov'd it nor laid any great Stress upon it and therefore I do not think my self much concerned in the Arguments you have brought against it which is the chief Reason why I have made little or no Reply to you since you entered upon the Examination of it B. Had you told me so at first it would have saved me a great deal of Trouble for then either I would not have mentioned it at all or at least would not have insisted so long upon it But that is your Cunning. Whichsoever of your Pretences happens to be examined you are resolved to say nothing of it till first you hear what can be said against it And if it so fall out that the Arguments against it make no great Impression upon it then to be sure that is the Pretence you always confided in But if it happens ●o be baffled why then forsooth you did not like it from the beginning But perhaps we may meet with more such before we come to an end The next that comes to be examined is that of Forfeiture The Substance of which is that by these violen●and a●●itrary Proceedings and Male-Admini●trations form 〈◊〉 mentioned K. James did really and truly forfeit all Right and Title to the Crown This Pretence I hope will be sooner discussed thin the former because though in ●o n● Respects they di●●er very considerably from one another the one affirming That he was deposed by the People And the other That ●e did really unking himself and forfeit his Right so that there was nothing lest for the People to do but only to declare it and dispose of the Forfeiture yet they both agree in this The same Grievancer and Male-Administrations are alledged by both Parties as the Ground
enough Let us return if you please to where we were when I led you into this Digression You may remember we were speaking of King James's Tide to the Crown whence I took Occasion to put you in mind of the vast Number and Quality of those that are against it in Compari●on of those that are for it Not that I thought there was any great Stress to be laid upon that but merrly to know what you would say of i● For I very freely grant that neither the Number nor Quality of either Side will signify much except they can give very good and satisfactory Reasons for what they say And therefore having already said what I think is sufficient of the one let us now discourse a little of the other You contend that King James has still the true and lawful Right to the Crown and consequently that all the Right K W. has is meerly Usurped B. I do so A. Well But can you give me any good Reason for it B. Yes I believe I can That he once had that Right you your self have granted and consequently must likewise grant that if he has never y●● been legally deprived of it he must have it still A. I must confess the Consequence seems natural enough though at the same time I believe a Man of Learning might make some Exceptions against it However rather than draw you into another Digression I am willing to let it pass B Nay if you have any Thing material to urge against it pray do it now For that will be much more proper than to recur to it afterwards I do not love to leave a Back-Door open behind me lest when you come to be pinch'd or put to a Strait you should happen to dodge and so give me the Slip which is no unusual thing in Disputes especially when they are not managed with great Candour and Ingenuity And therefore I say if the Consequence I mentioned does not please you pray give me your Reasons now that so there may be no occasion of recurring to it afterward A. I tell you again that though some perhaps may be of another Opinion yet I do not see but that your Consequence is good for I verily believe that when one has a just Right or Title to any Thing that Title is still good till he is lawfully deprived or dispossessed of it so that all I can demand or expect of you ●s That you should give me some good Reason why you think that King James has not 〈◊〉 his Right though the Generality of the Nation thinks he his and have proceeded all along on that Supposition B. Since you own that he once had that Right I conceive it is rather incumbent on you to shew how he has lost it than on me to prove that he has not lost it for that were to put me upon the Proof of a Negative which in most cases is very hard Suppose I am not only actually but legally possessed of an Estate and another comes and violently drives me from it if afterward the Matter comes to he debated before a Judge in order to a Decision it cannot reasonably be demanded that I should prove my Title because it being acknowledged to have been-good before he invaded it it must be presumed to be so still unless he can disprove it So that the proof must lie wholly upon him and those that are of Counsel for him there being no more incumbent on me but only to answer those Arguments by which he endeavours to prove that I have forfeited my Right Just so it is in the Case now in Dispute So that to expect that I or any man else should prove that King James has not lost his Right any otherwise than by disproving those Arguments by which your Party pretend to make it appear that he has lost it is both a very great Hardship upon us and a very preposterous way of arguing A. I am satisfied that what you now say is very reasonable that it is chiefly the part of your Adversaries not only to prove K. W'S. Right to the Crown but also to disprove that of King James because the one cannot be done without the other Yet partly because I am very loath to venture upon so great an Undertaking and partly because I am very confident you would not be so obstinate in maintaining King James's Right without some very good Reasons more than what are barely Negative or purely defensive I desire you will be pleased to take the Proof upon you though at the same time I grant you leave a more advantageous Post and forgoe an advantage you may justly claim B. To leave ones Post is like venturing out of ones Depth which many have had reason to repent of and so perhaps it may fare with me Yet since you seem so desirous that I should not only give but prove my Opinion I will endeavour to give you some Satisfaction hoping you will be so reasonable as not to expect any other Arguments than the Nature of the Thing will bear A. Truly you might think me very disingenuous and your self very ill rewarded for your Complacence if I should but you may assure your self of the contrary and therefore pray be pleased to go on B In confidence of that I will and that I may reduce my Discourse to as narrow a compass as may be there are two Things which I shall take for granted First That K. James was once our True and Lawful King That is to say that by the Fundamental Laws of the English Monarchy He and He alone was invested with the Lawful Right of governing these three Kingdoms and all other Dominions thereto annex'd as undoubted Heir and Successor to his Royal Brother The Second Thing is necessarily consequent upon that namely that having once had that Right if he has nor lost it since he must needs have it still These two Things being granted 〈◊〉 only remains that I give you the Reasons why I contend that he has not lost that Right at least not by any Law or Justice and for that I think there is no better Reason needs be given than what you your Selves furnish us withal A. I should be very glad to hear that Reason for it seems very strange to me that a Reason borrowed from us can with any Success be urged against us B. However strange it may seem to you it is no less satisfactory to me for the Reason I Intend to urge is the vast Difference among your Selves nay the absolute Inconsistency of your Opinions when you are put to it to declare how or by what means King James came to lose his Right That he has lost it I grant all of you agree or at least pretend so to do but when we call upon you as very reasonably we may to shew us how or by what means he lost it instead of a satisfactory Answer which all of you will stand by we meer with nothing but meer Shifts and
because she got no more than what she thought was her due Nor he the latter because it is not the Custom of his Countrey But in good earnest what could the Convention mean by disposing of the Crown after that manner Or by what authority could they pretend to meddle with it Men may dispose of their own how they will but to take the same Liberty with what does not belong ●o them is a little too offi●ious Had the Gover●ment been dissolved it had been properly their Business with the Consen● and Approbation of their Principals to have set up another Bu● since their was no such D●ssolution but only a pretended Cession or Resignation there was no Occasion for them to interpose any farther than by acquainting and proclaiming the next Heir Had they done no more than so they had acted however disagreeably to the true ●●ate of the Case which was far different from what they would needs make it yet suitably enough to their own Pretences But you very well know they were so far from containing themselves within these bounds that having declared the Throne vacant they not only took care to have that Vacancy supplied but did Join such a manner as was utterly inconsistent which the Fundamental Laws of Succession in this Kingdom than which nothing of that nature ought to be held more sacred or more inviolably observed You cannot well be ignorant of what I mean the breaches they have made in the Royal Line and the Case they have taken to defraud the Right Heir being plain enough to be seen First in setting aside the Prince of Wales and all that happen to descend of him to make way for the Princess of Orange And Secondly In settling the Crown upon the Prince her Husband not only during her Life but also during his own however long he may happen to survive her which is evidently to the Prejudice of the Princess Anne and her Heirs Such bold and daring Encroachments on the Sacred Right of Succession had need be supported by very solid Reasons especially when they are enacted by a Law Perhaps you will say you do not doubt but they had very good Reasons for what they did or at least that they themselves thought so else they would never have attempted it Well It may perhaps be so However I think they were very 〈◊〉 in not publishing and declaring them to the World as a certain Reverend Doctor did his Reasons for if they had 't is a chance but some body or other would have been so saucy as to be nibbling at them and to answer them as they did the Doctor 's it being no unusual thing for the same Reasons to be accounted weak and silly when once they are Published which wh●lest they were conceale● were presumed to be very folld a d●●ubstantial On this Consideration that honourable Convention has lese us ●o much in the dark as to 〈◊〉 Grounds and Reasons of their Proceedings that we must even satisfy our selves with the general Account That what they did was for several weighty Reasons best known to themselves Thus I have performed in some good measure what I undertook having considered examined and I hope disproved the several Pretences on which they of your Party endeavour to found the loss of King James's Right I have made it appear there is not one of them but what is both illegal and unreasonable And if so it will necessarily follow that his Right and Title is yet still good and consequently that whoever else does assume it is a Plain Usurper and all that support him in it Rebels against their Lawful King What Replies you thought fit to make I have fully answered what Questions you have proposed I have resolved what Objections you have urged I have resuted and given such a plain true and inartificial account of things that I am confident there is no considering man that is void of Prejudice but will rest fully satisfyed of the goodness of the Cause I have undertaken A. I must confess you have made it appear a little better to me than hitherto it has done I am not at all ashamed to grant that you have said several Things in the Vindication of King James's Right which I cannot pretend to answer nor will be so disingenuous as not to own that there is a great deal of Reason in what you have urged against that of K. W. But withal I must tell you it is not very probable that what you have said on either Side will be to any good purpose now For though I grant that if these Thing had been duly weighed and seriously considered at first they might have gone nigh to have prevented these Measure you so much complain of which for ought I know had been very happy for us yet i● cannot in Reason be expected that they will be of sufficient Force to unravel them again or to put us upon undoing what has been done nor can I be convinced that is were fit they should No 't is too late to think of that now Things are already g●ne so far that now there is a Necessity of continuing them as they are For though King James's Right were every way as good and K. W's as bad as you pretend yet as matters now stand the dispossessing of the latter and re-inthroning of the former would in all appearance expose the Nation to so many Dangers and Inconveniencies that all thoughts of that must be for ever laid aside B. I find you are now reduced to your last Shift which gives me some Hopes that this Dispute will soon be at an end for I am confident you will be less able to defend this than any of the former The Truth is I am apt to believe if you had seriously considered it you would not have so much as mention'd it for however plausibly it may be urged in point of Policy it is so grosly faulty in other Respects that there is no good man but would be asham'd of it and that especially for these two Reasons First Because it is Irreligious And Secondly Because it is most Unreasonable and Disingenuous First I say That to own K J's Right ●o the Crown to be still good and consequently that of K. W. to be no better than usurp'd and yet to plead a necessity of supporting the latter in opposition to the former because of the Dangers and Inconveniencies that a new Revolution would bring along with it is most apparently Impious and Irreligious Let it be granted that the Evils and Inconveniencies that would attend the restoring of King James were every way as great as is pretended and likewise on the other Hand that there were not only no Inconveniencies but indeed a great many Advantages in continuing the present Establishment or in supporting K W's Title I say let all hat be granted which I am sure is more than I am bound to do or you in reason can demand yet even that can never justify your Cause
have for our Religion here than formerly You say the Constitution of these two Churches are so different that what is expedient for the Preservation of Religion in one would not at all be proper in the other and from thence would conclude that though the Episcopal Clergy have been turned out there yet they are in no Danger here I do not much care if I grant you all that for it will neither be a Prejudice to my Cause nor an Advantage to yours That there is a great Difference between the Constitutions of these two Churches now whatever there was formerly is most certain yet that does not hinder but that there may again be an Ass●milation made between them whether by bringing theirs up to our Model or ours down to theirs I shall not dispute I shall like wise allow it to be probable enough that our Episcopal Clergy here are in no danger of being turned out but withal I can tell you that they do not owe their Security either to the nature of their Constitution or to any Love your King has for them but only to the mighty Zeal they shew to his Service their ready Complyance with whatever he commands the ●ul●om Flattery they use in their very Sermons and the many little Arts and servile Ways by which they court ●●s Favour wherein they have out-●iva●d the very Phanaticks themselves By these Mea●s they stand firm enough and yet I cannot forbear telling you that our Religion is never the better secured for that neither For it is plain enough that these Men mind themse●ves so much more than it that I can see ●o Necessity but that the one may stand while the other falls But now we are talking o● the great Obligation the present Gover●ment has laid upon us by securing our Religion Pray be so kind as to let me know what Religion you mean I hope you mean that which was established by Law namely the Church of England at least you ought to mean so for that was it that was thought to 〈◊〉 in greatest danger in King James's time As for the Pre●byterians or any other Sect 〈…〉 of Protestants you very well know that King James was very kind to then gave them ●o much Encouragement and so far stretel●d his Prerogative to ease them from the Penal Laws that it was one o● the ch●e● Objections against him It he was unkind to any it was only to those of the Church of England and therefore since you magnify the Security our Religion is in now in Opposition to the former Reign in all probability you must mean that of the Church of England A. I do so and am very confident you will not deny but that it is in a much more safe and flourishing Condition under the present Government than it was under the former B. I am afraid it is not but that rather it loseth ground every day 'T is true King James suspended one of her Bishops and imprisoned Seaven more whether legally or not I shall not now dispute however they still enjoyed their Revenues whereas your King has turn'd the like number out of H●use and Home It is likewise true that King James by suspending the Penal Laws turn'd loose against her the whole Herd of Dissenrers who like the Canaanites to the Children of Israel were as Thorns in her Sides and ha not your King done the same He nor only continued the same Toleration which K. James which was so much cryed out against for granting but has since enacted it by a Law so that now the Sectaries are in the same Condition or stand upon the same Foundation with the Church of England In a word the three grand Enemies of our Church are Popery Phanaticism and Atheism If the Government has taken any effectual Course to preserve her from these three I grant she is very much beholding to it But whoever enquires into it will find the Case very much otherwise For the Heat of their Zeal to secure her from the first has so far transported them that they have lest her quite open to the other two to prey upon her at their Pleasure As for the Phanaticks I have for many Years look'd upon them as more dangerous Enemies to the Church of England than the Papists themselves are equally irreconcilable but much more restless and spightful And if somtimes she has scarce found her self safe from their Insults or secure from their Incursions notwithstanding their being fenced off by Penal Laws she must be in much greater danger of being over-run by them now that Hedge is broken down And as for Atheism what a Door has been opened to that by the late Revolution and what Numbers have thronged in at it does but too evidently appear which however reproachful to Religion or however grievous to all good Men yet is not much to be wondered at For alas when Men that are otherwise not wery well grounded in Religion see it abused to such ill Purposes even to cloak the greatest Crimes When they see Children usurp their Father's Crown and force him for the Safety of his Life to seek shelter among Strangers When instead of opposing it they see the whole Clergy of a National Church christen such an unnatural Villainy pray for the Success and Continuance of it father it upon Divine Providence and crave God Almightty's Protection to it and all those turned out to starve or beg their Bread that refuse to join with them in it I say when Men that are otherwise not very well grounded in Religion see it prostituted and abused to such vile Purposes by those who pretend to be the most zealous Professours of it how can it otherwise be expected but that they will conclude that all Religion is a Trick Thus have you laid such a S●umbling-Block in the Way as has undoubtedly occasioned the Fall of some Thousands who might otherwise have proved good Christians and so far hardened them against oil belief of Religion that it is impossible to persuade them that you your selves believe it And though I grant that will not be sufficient to excuse them yet I must tell you it will fall heavy upon those that were the Occasion of it But besides the Door that has been opened by the late Revolution for Phanaticism and Atheism to break in upon the Church it doth plainly enough appear that the present Government has done what lies in it's Power quite to unchurch her for by the late Act of Parl●ament in turning our several of her organical Members by a meer Lay-deprivation and the present Clergy's submitting to it and owning the Validity of it by acknowledging those An●●-Bishops that were substituted in their Room the very Foundation of the Church is altered from the old English Constitution to a new-model'd Erastian Dutch Bottom That is to say absoluteat the Mercy of the State and wholly dep●●ding upon it not only 〈◊〉 respect of her temporal bu● likewise of her spiritual Power 〈◊〉 By which