would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that could cast your Body and Soul into Hell than the King that can onely kill the Body A. You say true for it were very uncharitable in me to believe that all Englishmen except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that die Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day do you not think them also damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for disobedience to the King's Law either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for sin and therefore if he die Excommunicate and without desire of reconciliation he dies impenitent you see what follows But to die in disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrine of those men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite another case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of their Dominions A. Heresie is a Word which when it is used without passion signifies a private Opinion so the different Sect of the old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoicks c. were called Heresie But in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the Salvation of mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same relation to the Power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the Power Temporal and is suitably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a Power Spiritual and dominion over mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as a Heretick for else not onely men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresie is by Law declared in Act of Parliament in the First Year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordained that the Persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to Adjudge any matter or cause to be Heresie but only such as heretofore have been Adjudged to be Heresie by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the First 4 General Councils or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresie by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scriptures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresie by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new Error that hath not been yet declared Heresie and many such may arise it cannot be Judged Heresie without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declared Heresie neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no Error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to hemself nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Council can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councils have declar'd a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those points that the first four General Counsels have declared Heresie B. The first General Councel held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed Upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ the Second General Councel held at Constantinople declar'd Heresie the Doctrine of Macedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The Third Councel assembled at Ephesius condemned the Doctrine of Nestorius that there were two persons in Christ The Fourth held at Calcedon condemned the Error of Emtyches that there was but one nature in Christ I know of no other Points condemned in these four Councels but such as concern Church-Government or the same Doctrines taught by other Men in other words And these Councels were all called by the Emperors and by them their Decrees confirmed at the Petition of the Councels themselves A. I see by this that both the Calling of the Council and the confirmation of their Doctrine and Church-Government had no obligatory force but from the Authority of the Emperor how comes it then to pass that they take upon them now a Legislative Power and say their Canons are Laws That Text all Power is given to me in Heaven and Earth had the same force then as it hath now and conferred a Legislative Power on the Councils not only over Christian men but over all Nations in the world B. They say no for the Power they pretend to is derived from this that when a King was converted from Gentilism to Christianity he did by that very Submission to the Bishop that converted him submit to the Bishops Government and became one of his sheep which Right therefore he could not have over any Nation that was not Christian A. Did Silvester which was Pope of Rome in the time of Constantine the Great converted by him tell the Emperor his New Disciple before hand that if he became a Christian he must become the Popes Subject B. I believe not for it is likely enough if he had told him so plainly or but made him suspect it he would either have been not Christian at all or but a Counterfeit one A. But if he did not tell him so and that plainly it was foul play not only in a Priest but in any Christian And for this Derivation of their Right from the Emperors consent it proceeds only from this that they dare not challenge a Legislative power nor call their Canons Laws in any Kingdom in Christendom farther than the Kings make them so But in Peru when Atabalipa was King the Fryer told him that Christ being King of all the World had given the diposing of all the Kingdoms there to the Pope And that the Pope had given Peru to the Roman Emperor Charles the 5. and required Atabalipa to resign it and for refusing it seised upon his Person by the Spanish Army there present and murdered him You see by this how much they claim when they have power to make it good B. When began the Popes to take this
Tax upon the people of ninety thousand pound a Month for the maintenance of the Army B Was it not one of their Quarrels with the King that he had levied Money without the consent of the people in Parliament A. You may see by this what reason the Rump had to call it self a Parliament for the Taxes imposed by Parliament were always understood to be by the peoples consent and consequently legal To appease the Scots they sent Messengers with flattering Letters to keep them from ingaging for the present King but in vain for they would hear nothing from a House of Commons as they call'd it at Westminster without a King and Lords But they sent Commissioners to the King to let him know what they were doing for him for they were resolv'd to raise an Army of seventeen thousand Foot and six thousand Horse for themselves To relieve Ireland the Rump had resolv'd to send eleven Regiments thither out of the Army here in England This happened well for Cromwel for the Levelling Soldiers which were in every Regiment many and in some the major part finding that instead of dividing the Land at home they were to venture their Lives in Ireland flatly denied to go and one Regiment having cashier'd their Colonel about Salisbury was marching to joyn with three Regiments more of the same resolution but both the General and Cromwel falling upon them at Burford utterly defeated them and soon after reduced the whole Army to their obedience And thus another of the Impediments to Cromwel's Advancement was soon remov'd Thus done they came to Oxford and thence to London and at Oxford both the General and Cromwel were made Doctors of the Civil Law and at London â—easted and presented by the City B. Were they not first made Masters then Dâ—ctors A. They had made themselves Masters already both of the Laws and Parliament The Army being now obedient the Rump sent over those eleven Regiments into Ireland under the Command of Doctor Cromwel Entituled Governour of that Kingdom the Lord Fairfax being still General of all the Forces both here and there The Marquess now Duke of Ormond was the Kings Lieutenant of Ireland and the Rebels had made a Confederacy among themselves and those Confederates had made a kind of League with the Lieutenant wherein they agreed upon liberty given them in the exercise of their Religion to be faithful to and assist the King To these also were joyned some Forces raised by the Earls of Castlehaven and Clanriccard and my Lord Inchequin so that they were the greatest United Strength in the Island but there were among them a great many other Papists that would by no means subject themselves to Protestants and these were called the Nuncio's Party as the other were called the Confederate Party These Parties not agreeing and the Confederate Party having broken their Articles the Lord Lieutenant seeing them ready to besiege him in Dublin and not able to defend it to preserve the place for the Protestants surrenders it to the Parliament of England and came over to the King at this time when he was carried from place to place by the Army From England he went over to the Prince now King residing then at Paris But the Confederates affrighted with the news that the Rump was sending over an Army thither desir'd the Prince by Letters to send back my Lord of Ormond ingaging themselves to submit absolutely to the Kings Authority and to obey my Lord of Ormond as his Lieutenant And thereupon he was sent back This was about a year before the going over of Cromwel in which time by the Dissentions in Ireland between the Confederate Party and the Nuncio's Party and discontents about Command this otherwise sufficient Power effected nothing and was at last defeated August the second by a Salley out of Dublin which they were besieging Within a few days after arriv'd Cromwel who with extraordinary diligence and horrid Executions in less than a Twelve-month that he staid there subdued in a manner the whole Nation having kill'd or exterminated a great part of them and leaving his Son-in-law Ireton to subdue the rest But Ireton died there before the business was quite done of the Plague This was one step more towards Cromwel's Exaltation to the Throne B. What a miserable condition was Ireland reduced to by the Learning of the Roman as well as England was by the Learning of the Presbyterian Clergy A. In the latter end of the preceeding year the King was come from Paris to the Hague and shortly after came thither from the Rump their Agent Dorisâ—aus Doctor of the Civil Law who had been imployed in the drawing of the Charge against the late King But the first night he came as he was at Supper a Company of Cavaliers near a dozen entred his Chamber kill'd him and got away Not long after also their Agent at Madrid one Ascham that had written in defence of his Masters was kill'd in the same manner About this tire came out two Books one written by Salmasius a Presbyterian against the Murder of the King another written by Milton an Independent in England in Answer to it B. I have seen them both they are very good Laâ—iâ—â— both and hardly to be judged which is better and both very ill reasoning and hardly to be judged which is worst like two Declamations Pro and Con for Exercise only in a Rhetorick School by one and the same man So like is a Presbyterian to an Independent A. In this year the Rump did not much at home save that in the beginning they made England a Free State by an Act that runs thus Be it Enacted and Declared by this present Parliament and by the Authority thereof That the people of England and all the Dominions and Territories thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted made and declared a Common-wealth and Free State c. B. What did they mean by a Free State and Common-wealth were the people no longer to be subject to Laws They could not mean that for the Parliament meant to Govern them by their own Laws and punish such as broke them Did they mean that England should not be subject to any foreign Kingdom or Common-wealth That needed not be Enacted seeing there was no King nor People pretended to be their Masters What did they mean then A. They meant that neither this King nor any King nor any single person but only that they themselves would be the Peoples Masters and would have set it down in those plain words if the people could have been cozen'd with words intelligible as easily as with words not intelligible After this they gave one another Money and Estates out of the Lands and Goods of the Loyal Party They Enacted also an Engagement to be taken by every man in these words Tou shall promise to be true and faithful to the Common-wealth of England as it is now established without King or House of Lords They
have heard publickly and so both parties returned to the same Condition as they were in when the King went down with his Army B. And so there was a great deal of Money cast away to no purpose but you have not told me who was General of that Army A. I told you the King was there in person he that commanded under him was the Earl of Arundel a man that wanted not either Valour or Judgement but to proceed to Battle or to Treaty was not in his power but in the King 's B. He was a man of a most Noble and Loyal Family and whose Ancestors had formerly given a great overthrow to the Scots in their own Countrey and in all likelihood he might have given them the like now if they had Fought A. He might indeed but it had been but a kind of Superstition to have made him General upon that account though many Generals heretofore have been chosen for the good luck of their Ancestors in the like occasions In the long War between Athens and Sparta a General of the Athenians by Sea won many Victories against the Spartans for which cause after his death they chose his Son for General with ill success The Romans that conquered Carthage by the valour and conduct of Scipio when they were to make War again in Africk against Caesar chose another Scipio a man valiant and wise enough but he perished in the Employment And to come home to our own Nation the Earl of Essex made a fortunate Expedition to Cadiz but his Son sent afterwards to the same place could do nothing 'T is a foolish Superstition to hope that God has entailed Success in War upon a Nation or Family B. After the pacification broken what succeeded next A. The King sent Duke Hamilton with Commission and Instructions into Scotland to call a Parliament there but all was to no purpose and to use all the means he could otherwise but the Scots were resolved to raise an Army and to enter into England to deliver as they pretended their grievances to his Majesty in a Petition because the King they said being in the hands of evil Counsellors they could not otherwise obtain their right but the truth is they were otherwise animated to it by the Democratical and Presbyterian English with a promise of reward and hope of Plunder Some have said that Duke Hamilton also did rather encourage them to than deter them from the Expedition as hoping by the disorder of the two Kingdoms to bring to pass that which he had been formerly accused of to endeavour to make himself King of Scotland but I take this to have been a very uncharitable Censure upon so little ground to judge so uncharitably of a man that afterwards lost his life in seeking to procure the liberty of the King his Master This resolution of the Scots to enter into England being known the King wanting Money to raise an Army against them was now as his Enemies here wished constrained to call a Parliamene to meet at Westminster the 13. of April 1640. B. Me-thinks a Parliament of England if upon any occasion should furnish the King with Money now in a War against the Scots out of an inveterate disaffection to that Nation that had always taken part with their Enemies the French and which always esteemed the Glory of England an abatement of their own A. 'T is indeed commonly seen that Neighbour-Nations envy one anothers Honour and that the less potent bears the greater malice but that hinders them not from agreeing in those things which their common ambition leads them to And therefore the King found for the War but the less help from this Parliament and most of the Members thereof in their ordinary discourses seemed to wonder why the King should make a War upon Scotland and in that Parliament sometime called them their Brethren the Scots but instead of taking the King's business which was the raising of Money into their consideration they fell upon the redressing of Grievances and especially such way of levying Money as in the last intermission of Paâ—liament the King had been forced to use such as were Ship-Money Knighâ—hood and such other Vails as one may call them of the Regal Office which Lawyers had found justifiable by the antâ—ent Records of the Kingdom Besides they fell upon the actions of divers Ministers of State though done by the Kings own Command and Warrant insomuch that before they were called the Money which was necessary for this War if they had given Money as they never meant to do had come too late It is true there was mention of a sum of Money to be given the King by way of bargain for relinquishing his right to Ship-money and some other of his Prerogatives but so seldom and without determining any Sum that it was in vain for the King to hope for any success and therefore on the Fifth of May following he dissolved them B. Where then had the King Money to raise and pay his Army A. He was forced the second time to make use of the Nobility and Gentry who contributed some more some less according to the greatness of their Estates but amongst them all they made up a very sufficient Army B. It seems then that the same men that crossed his business in the Parliament now out of Parliament advanced it all they could what was the reason of that A. The greatest part of the Lords in Parliament and the Gentry throughout England were more affected to Monarchy than to a Popular Government but so as not to endure to hear of the King 's absolute Power which made them in time of Parliament easily to condescend to abridge it and bring the Government to mixt Monarchy as they called it wherein the absolute Sovereignty should be divided between the King the House of Lords and the House of Commons B. But how if they cannot agree A. I think they never thought of that but I am sure they never meant the Sovereignty should be wholly either in one or both Houses besides they were loth to desert the King when he was invaded by Foreigners for the Scots were esteemed by them as a Foreign Nation B. It is strange to me that England and Scotland being but one Island and their Language almost the same and being governed by one King should be thought Foreigners to one another The Romans were Masters of many Nations and to oblige them the more to obey the Edicts of the Law sent unto them by the City of Rome they thought fit to make them all Romans and out of divers Nations as Spain Germany Italy and France to advance some that they thought worthy even to be Senators of Rome and to give every one of the common People the priviledge of the City of Rome by which they were protected from the contumelies of other Nations where they resided Why were not the Scotch and English in like manner united into one People A. King James at
his first coming to the Crown of England did endeavour it but could not prevail But for all that I believe the Scotch have now as many priviledges in England as any Nation had in Rome of those which were so as you say made Romans for they are all Naturalized and have right to buy Land in England to them and their Heirs B. 'T is true of them that were born in Scotland after the time that King James was in possession of the Kingdom of England A. There be very few now that were born before But why have they a better right that were born after than they that were born before B. Because they were born Subjects to the King of England and the rest not A. Were not the rest born Subjects to King James and was not he King of England B. Yes but not then A I understand not the subtilty of the distinction but upon what Law is that distinction grounded is there any Statute to that purpose B. I cannot tell I think not but it is grounded upon Equity A. I see little equity in this that those Nations that are bound to equal obedience to the same King should not have equal Priviledges and now seeing there be so very few born before King Jame's coming in what greater priviledges had those ingrafted Romans by their Naturalization in the State of Rome or in the State of England the English themselves more than the Scotch D. Those Romans when any of them were in Rome had their voice in the making of Laws A. And the Scotch have their Parliaments wherein their assent is required to the Law there made which is as good Have not many of the Provinces of France their several Parliaments and several Constitutions yet they are all equally Natural Subjects to the King of France And therefore for my part I think they were mistaken both English and Scotch in calling one another Foreigners Howsoever that be the King had a very sufficient Army wherewith he marched towards Scotland and by that time he was come to York the Scots Army was drawn up to the Fronteers and ready to march into England which also they presently did giving out all the way that their march should be without damage to the Countrey and that their Errand was onely to deliver a Petition to the King for the redress of many pretended Injuries they had received from such of the Court whose counsel the King most followed so they passed through Northumberland quietly till they came to a Ford in the River of Tine a little above Newcastle where they found some little opposition from a party of the King's Army sent thither to stop them whom the Scots easily mastered and as soon as they were over seized on Newcastle and coming farther on upon the City of Duresme and sent to the King to desire a Treaty which was granted and the Commissioners on both sides met at Rippon the conclusion was that all should be referred to the Parliament which the King should call to meet at Westminster the third of November following in the same year 1640. And thereupon the King returned to London B. So the Armies were disbanded A. No The Scotch Army was to be defrayed by the Counties of Northumberland and Duresme and the King was to pay his own till the disbanding of both should be agreed upon in Parliament B. So in effect both the Armies were maintained at the King's Charge and the whole Controversie to be desided by a Parliament almost wholly Presbyterian and as Partial to the Scotch as themselves could have wished A. And yet for all this they durst not presently make War upon the King there was so much yet left of Reverence to him in the Hearts of People as to have made them odious if they had declared what they intended they must have some colour or other to make it be believed that the King made War first upon the Parliament And besides they had not yet sufficiently disgraced him in Sermons and Pamphlets nor removed from about him those they thought could best counsel him therefore they resolved to proceed with him like skilful hunters First to single him out by men disposed in all parts to drive him into the open field and then in case he should not seem to turn head to call that making a War against the Parliament And first They called in question such as had either Preached or written in defence of those Rights which belonging to the Crown they meant to usurp and take from the King to themselves whereupon some few Writers and Preachers were Imprisoned or forced to fly The King not protecting these they proceeded to call in question some of the King 's own Actions in his Ministers whereof they Imprison'd some and some went beyond Sea and whereas certain persons having endeavoured by Books and Sermons to raise Sedition and committed other Crimes of high Nature had therefore been censured by the Kings Council in the Star-Chamber and Imprisoned the Parliament by their own Authority to try it seems how the King and the people would take it for their Persons were inconsiderable ordered their setting at Liberty which was accordingly done with great Applause of the People that flocked about them in London in manner of a Triumph This being done without resistance the Kings Right to Ship-money B. Ship-money what 's that A. The Kings of England for the defence of the Sea had power to Tax all the Counties of England whether they were Maritine or not for the Building and Furnishing of Ships which Tax the King had then lately found cause to impose and the Parliament exclaimed against it as an oppression And one of their Members that had been Taxed but 20 Shillings mark the Oppression a Parliament-man of 500 l. a Year Land Taxed at 20 Shillings they were forced to bring it to a Tryal at Law he refusing payment and he was cast again When all the Judges of Westminster were demanded their Opinions concerning the legality of it of Twelve that there are it was judged Legal by Ten for which though they were not punished yet they were affrighted by the Parliament B. What did the Parliament mean when they did exclaim against it as illegal Did they mean it was against Statute Law or against the Judgments of Lawyers given heretofore which are commonly called Reports or did they mean it was against Equity which I take to be the same with the Law of Nature A. It is a hard matter or rather impossible to know what other men mean especially if they be crafty but sure I am Equity was not their ground for their pretence of Immunity from Contributing to the King but at their own pleasure for when they have laid the Burthen of defending the whole Kingdom and governing it upon any person whatsoever there is little Equity he should depend on others for the means of performing it or if he do they are his Soveraign not he theirs and as for
B. Must Tyrants also be obeyed in every thing actively or is there nothing wherein a Lawful Kings commands may be disobeyed what if he should command me with my own hands to execute my Father in case he should be condemned to die by the Law A. This is a case that need not be put we never have read or heard of any King or Tyrant so inhumane as to command it if any did we are to consider whether that command were one of his Laws for by disobeying Kings we mean disobeying his Laws those his Laws that were made before they were applied to any particular person For the King though as a Father of Children and a Master of domestick Secrets yet commands the People in general never but by a precedent Law and as a Publick not a Natural Person and if such a Command as you speak of were contrived into a general Law which never was nor never will be you were bound to obey it unless you depart the Kingdom after the publication of the-Law and before the condemnation of your Father B. Your Author says farther in refusing active obedience to the King that commanded any thing contrary to God's Law we must be very well assured that the thing is so contrary I would fain know-how is it possible to be assured A. I think you do not believe that any of those Refusers do immediately from God's own mouth receive any Command contrary to the Command of the King who is God's Lieutenant nor any other way than you and I do that is to say than by the Scriptures And because men do for the most part rather draw the Scriptures to their own sense than follow the true sense of the Scripture there is no other way to know certainly and in all cases what God commands or forbids us to do but by the sentence of him or them that are constituted by the King to determine the sense of the Scriptures upon hearing of the particular Case of Conscience which is in question and they that are so constituted are easily known in all Christian Common-wealths whether they be Bishops or Ministers or Assemblies that govern the Church under him or them that have the Sovereign Power B. Some doubts may be raised from this that you now say for if men be to learn their Duty from the Sentence which other men shall give concerning the meaning of the Scriptures and not from their own Interpretation I understand not to what end they were Translated into English and every man not onely permitted but also exhorted to read them for what could that produce but diversity of Opinion and consequently as man's nature is Disputation breach of Charity Disobedience and at last Rebellion Again since the Scriptures were allowed to be read in English why were not the Translations such as might make all that 's read understood even by mean capacities Did not the Jews such as could read understand their Law in the Jewish Language as well as we do our Statute Laws in English And as for such places of the Scripture as had nothing of the Nature of a Law it was nothing to the Duty of the Jews whether they were understood or not seeing nothing is punishable but the transgression of some Law The same question I may ask concerning the New Testament for I believe that those men to whom the Original Language was natural did understand sufficiently what Commands and Counsels were given them by our Saviour and his Apostles and his immediate Disciples Again how will you answer that question which was put by St. Peter and St. John Acts 4.19 when by Ananias the High-priest and others of the Council of Jerusalem they were forbidden any more to teach in the Name of Jesus Whether is it right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God A. The case is not the same Peter and John had seen and daily conversed with our Saviour and by the Miracles he wrought did know he was God and consequently knew certainly that their disobedience to the High Priest's present command was just Can any Minister now say that he hath immediately from God's own mouth received a Command to disobey the King or know otherwise than by the Scripture that any Command of the King that hath the form and nature of a Law is against the Law of God which in divers places he directly and evidently commandeth to obey him in all things The Text you cite doth not tell us that a Minister's Authority rather than a Christian King's shall decide the questions that arise from the different Interpretations of the Scripture And therefore where the King is Head of the Church and by consequence to omit that the Scripture it self was not received but by the Authority of Kings and States chief Judge of the Rectitude of all Interpretations of the Scripture to obey the King's Laws and publick Edicts is not to disobey and obey God A Minister ought not to think that his skill in the Latin Greek or Hebrew Tongues if he have any gives him a triviledge to impose upon all his fellow-subjects his own sense or what he pretends to be his sense of every obscure place of Scripture nor ought he as often as he hath found some fine Interpretation not before thought on by others to think he had it by Inspiration as fine as he thinks it is not false and then all his stubbornness and contumacy towards the King and his Laws is nothing but pride of heart and ambâ—tion or else imposture And whereas you think it needless or perhaps hurtful to have the Scriptures in English I am of another mind There are so many places of Scripture easily to be understood that teach both true Faith and good Morality and that as fully as it is necessary to Salvation of which no Seducer is able to dispose the mind of any ordinary Readers that the reading of them is so profitable as not to be forbidden without great damage to them and the Common-wealth B. All that is required both in Faith and Manners for Man's Salvation is I confess set down in Scripture as plainly as can be Children obey your parents in all things Servants obey your masters in all things Let all men be subject to the higher powers whether it be the King or those that are sent by him Love God with all your soul and your neighbour as your self are words of the Scripture which are well enough understood but neither Children nor the greatest part of Men do understand why it is their duty so to do they see not that the safety of the Common-wealth and consequently their own depends upon the doing of it Every man by Nature without Discipline does in all his actions look upon as far as he can see the benefit that shall redound to himself by his obedience he reads that covetousness is the root of all evil but he thinks and sometimes finds it is the root of his Estate And
so in other cases the Scripture says one Scripture says one thing and they think another weâ—ghing the commodities or incommodities of this present life onely which are in their sight never putting into the scales the good and evil of the Life to come which they see not A. All his is no more than happens where the Scripture is sealed up in Greek and Latine and the People taught the same things out of them by Preachers but they that are of a Condition and Age fit to examine the sense of what they read and that take a delight in searching out the grounds of their duty certainly cannot chuse but by reading of the Scriptures come to such a sense of their Duty as not only to obey the Laws themselves but also to induce others to do the same for commonly Men of Age and quality are followed by their inseriour Neighbours that look more upon the example of those Men whom they Reverence and whom they are unwilling to displease then upon Precepts and Laws A. These men of the Condition and Age you speak of are in my opinion the unfittest of all others to be trusted with the reading of the Scriptures I know you mean such as have studied the Greek or Latin or both Tongues and that are withal such as love knowledge and consequently take delight in finding out the meaning of the most hard Texts or in thinking they have found it in case it be new and not found out by others these are therefore they that pretermitting the easie places that teach them their duty fall to scanning only the Mysteries of Religion Such as are how it may be made out with wit that there be three that bear Rule in Heaven and those three but one how the Deity could be made flesh how that flesh could be really present in many places at once where 's the place and what the Torments of Hell and other Metaphysical Doctrines whether the Will of Man be free or govern'd by the will of God whether Sanctity comes by Inspiration or Education by whom Christ now speaks to us whether by the King or by the Bible to every man that reads it and interprets it to himself or by a private Spirit to every private Man These and the like poâ—nts are the study of the curious and the cause of all our late mischief and the cause that makes the plainer sort of men whom the Scriptures had taught belief in Christ love towards God obedience towards the King and sobriety of Behaviour forget it all and place their Religion in the Disputable Doctrines of your wise men A. I do not think these men fit to interpret the Scriptures to the rest nor do I say that the rest ought to take their interpretation for the word of God Whatsoever is necessary for them to know more does them no good but in case any of these unnecessary Doctrines shall be Authorized by the Laws of the King or other state I say it is the duty of every Subject not to speak against them in asmuch as 't is every Mans duty to obey him or them that have the Soveraign power and the wisdom of all such powers to punish such as shall publish or teach their private Interpretations when they are contrary to the Law and likely to incline men to sedition or disputing against the Law B. They must punish then the most of those that have had there breeding in the Universities for such curious questions in Divinity are first started in the Universities and so are all those politick questions concerning the rights of Civil and Ecclesiastical Government and there they are furnished with Arguments for Liberty out of the works of Aristotle Plato Cicero Seneca and out of the Histories of Rome and Greece for their disputation against the necessary power of their Soveraigns therefore I dispare of any lasting peace among our selves till the Universities here shall bend and direct their studies to the setling of it That is to the Teaching of Absolute obedience to the Laws of the King and to his publick Edicts under the great Seal of England For I make no doubt but that solid reason backt with the Authority of so many Learned men will more prevail for the keeping of us in peace within our selves than any victory over the Rebells but I am afraid 't is unpossible to bring the Universities to such a compliance with the Actions of State as is necessary for the business seeing the Universities have heretofore from time to time maintain'd the Authority of the Pope contrary to all Laws Divine Civil and Natural against Right of our Kings why can they not as well when they have all manner of Laws and Equity on their side maintain the Rights of him that is both Soveraign of the Kingdom and Head of the Church B. Why then were they not in all points for the Kings power presently after that King Henry 8. was in Parliament declared Head of the Church as much as they were before for the Authory of the Pope A. Because the Clergy in the Universities by whom all things there are govern'd and the Clergy wâ—thout the Universities as well Bishops as Inseriour Clerks did think that the pulling down of the Pope was the setting up of them as to England in his place and made no question the greateâ—t part of them but that their spiritual power did depend not upon the Authority of the King but of Christ himself derived to them by successible Imposition of hands from Bishop to Bishop notwithstanding they knew that â—iâ—is derivation passed through the hands of Popes and Bishops whose Authority they had cast off for though they were content that the Divine right which the Pope pretended to in England should be denied him yet they thought it rot so fit to be taken from the Church of England whom they now supposed themselves to represent It seems they did not think it reasonable that a Woman or a Child or a Man that could not construe the Hebrew Greek or Latin Bible nor know perhaps the Declensions and Conjugations of Greek or Latin Nounes and Verbs should take upon him to govern so many Learned Doctors in matters of Religion meaning matters of Divinity for Religion has been for a long time and is now by most people taken for the same thing with Divinity to the great advantage of the Clergy A. And especially now amongst the Presbyterians for I see few that are esteemed by them very good Christians besides such as can repeat their Sermons and wrangle so them about Interpretat on of the Scripture and fight for them also with their Bodies or Purses when they shall be required to believe in Christ is nothing with them unless you believe as they bid you Charity is nothing with them unless it be Charity and Liberality to them and partaking with them in Faction How we can have peace while this is our Religion I cannot tell Haeret Laterilethalis arundo The
with them whilst the King had his great Council about him But neither they nor the Lords could present to the King as a Grievance That the King took upon him to make the Laws to chuse his own Privy Council to raise Money and Soldiers to defend the Peace and Honour of the Kingdom to make Captains in his Army to make Governours of his Castles whom he pleased for this had been to tell the King that it was one of their Grievances that he was King B. What did the Parliament do whilst the King was in Scotland A. The King went in August after which the Parliament September the 8th adjourn'd till the 20th of October and the King return'd about the end of November following in which time the most Seditious of both Houses and which had designed the Change of Government and to cast off Monarchy but yet had not wit enough to set up another Government in its place and consequently left it to the chance of War made a Cabal amongst themselves in which they projected how by seconding one another to Govern the House of Commons and invented how to put the Kingdom by the Power of that House into a Rebellion which they then called a posture of Defence against such Dangers from abroad as they themselves should feign and publish Besides whilst the King was in Scotland the Irish Papists got together a great Party with an Intention to Massacre the Protestants there and had laid a design for the â—eizing of Dublin Castle October the 20th where the King's Officers of the Government of the County made their Residence and had effected it had it not been Discovered the night before The manner of the discovery and the Murders they committed in the Country afterwards I need not tell you since the whole story of it is extant B. I wonder they did not expect and provide for a Rebellion in Ireland as soon as they began to quarrel with the King in England For was there any body so ignorant as not to know that the Irish Papists did long for a change of Religion there as well as the Presbyterians in England Or that in general the Irish Nation did hate the name of Subjection to England or would longer be quiet than they feared an Army out of England to chastize them What better time then could they take for their Rebellion than this wherein they were encouraged not only by our weakness caused by this Division between the King and his Parliament but also by the Example of the Presbyterians both of the Scorch and English Nation But what did the Parliament do upon this occasion in the King's absence A. Nothing but consider what use they might make of it to their own ends partly by imputing it to the King 's evil Councellors and partly by occasion thereof to demand of the King the Power of Pressing and Ordering of Soldiers which Power whosoever has has also without doubt the whole â—overaignty B. When came the King back A. He came back the 25th of November and was welcomed with the Acclamations of the common people as much as if he had been the most beloved of the Kings before him but found not a Reception by the Parliament answerable to it They presently began to pick new Quarrels against him out of every thing he said to them December 2. the King called together both Houses of Parliament and then did only recommend unto them the raising of Succours for Ireland B. What Quarrel could they pick out of that A. None but in order thereto as they may pretend they had a Bill in Agitation to assert the power of Levying and Pressing â—oldiers to the two Houses of the Lords and Commons which was as much as to take â—â—om the King the Power of the Militia which is in effect the whole Soveraign Power for he that hath the Power of Levying and Commanding of his Soldiers has all other Rights of Soveraignty which he shall please to claim The King hearing of it called the Houses of Parliament together again on December the 14th and then pressed again the business of Ireland as there was need for all this while the Irish were murdering the English in Ireland and strengthening themselves against the Forces they expected to come out of England and withall told them he took notice of the Bill in Agitation for Pressing of Soldiers and that he was content it should pass with a Salvo Jure both for him and them because the present time was unreasonable to dispute it in B. What was there unreasonable in this A. Nothing what 's unreasonable is one question what they quarrell'd at is another They quarrell'd at this that His Majesty took notice of the Bill while it was in debate in the House of Lords before it was presented to him in the Course of Parliament And also that he shewed himself displeased with those that propounded the third Bill both which they declared to be against the Priviledges of Parliament and petitioned the King to give them Reparation against those by whose evil Council he was induced to it that they might receive condign punishment B. This was cruel proceeding Do not the Kings of England use to sit in the Lords House when they please And was not this Bill then in debate in the House of Lords It is a strange thing that a man should be lawfully in the company of men where he must needs hear and see what they say and do and yet must not take notice of it so much as to the same Company for though the King was not present at the Debate it self yet it was lawful for any of the Lords to make him acquainted with it Any one of the House of Commons though not present at a Proposition or Debate in the House nevertheless hearing of it from some of his fellow Members may certainly not only take notice of it but also speak to it in the House of Commons But to make the King give up his Friends and Counsellors to them to be put to Death Banishment or Imprisonment for their good will to him was such a Tyranny over a King no King ever exercised over any Subject but in cases of Treason or Murder and seldom then A. Presently hereupon grew a kind of War between the Peers of Parliament and those of the Secretaries and other able Men that were with the King â—or upon the 15th of December they sent to the King a Paper called a Remonstrance of the State of the Kingdom and with it a Petition both which they caused to be published in the Remonstrance they complained of certain mischievous Designs of a Malignant Party then before the beginning of the Parliament grown â—â—pe and did set forth what means had been used for the preventing of it by the Wisdom of the Parliament what Rubs they had found therein what course was fit to be taken for the restoring and establishing the Antient Honour Greatness and Safety of the Crown and
for the reducing of Ireland the Parliament invited Men to bring in Mony by way of Adventure according to these Propositions First That two Millions and five hundred thousand Acres of Land in Ireland should be assigned to the Adventurers in this proportion For an Adventure of 200 l. 1000 Acres in Vlster 300 l. 1000 Acres in Conaught 450 l. 1000 Acres in Munster 600 l. 1000 Acres in Lemster All according to English Measure and consisting of Meadow arable and profitable Pasture Bogs Woods and Barren Mountains being cast in over and above Secondly A Revenue was reserv'd to the Crown from 1 d. to 3 d. on every Acre Thirdly That Commissions should be sent by the Parliament to erect Mannors settle Wastes and Commons maintain preaching Ministers to create Corporations and to regulate Plantations The rest of the Propositions concern only the times and manner of payment of the Sums subscribed by the Adventurers and to those Propositions His Majesty assented but to the Petition for the Militia His Majesty denied His Assent B. If He had not I should have thought it a great Wonder What did the Parliament after this A. They sent Him another Petition which was presented to Him when He was at Theobalds in his way to York wherein they tell him plainly That unless He be pleased to assure them by those Messengers them sent that He would speedily apply His Royal Assent to the satisfaction of their former Desires they shall be forc'd for the Safety of his Majesty and his Kingdoms to dispose of the Militia by the Authority of both Houses c. They Petition'd His Majesty also to let the Prince stay at St. James's or some other of His Majesties Houses near London They tell him also That the Power of Raising Ordering and Disposing of the Militia cannot be granted to any Corporation without the Authority and Consent of Parliament And those Parts of the Kingdom that have put themselves into a posture of Defence have done nothing therein but by direction of both Houses and what is justifiable by the Laws of this Kingdom B. What Answer made the King to this A. It was a putting of themselves into Arms and under Officers such as the Parliament should approve of Fourthly They Voted that His Majesty should be again desir'd that the Prince might continue about London Lastly They Voted a Declaration to be sent to His Majesty by both the Houses wherein they accuse His Majesty of a design of altering Religion though not directly Him but them that counsel'd Him whom they also accus'd of being the Inviters and Fomenters of the Scots War and Framers of the Rebellion in Ireland And upbraid the King again for accusing the Lord Kimbolton and the Five Members and of being privy to the purpose of bringing up His Army which was rais'd against the Scots to be employ'd against the Parliament To which His Majesty replied from New-market Whereupon it was Resolv'd by both Houses That in this Case of extream Danger and of His Majesties Refusal the Ordinance agreed upon by both Houses for the Militia doth oblige the People by the Fundamental Laws of this Kingdom And also that whosoever should execute any Power over the Militia by colour of any Commission of Lieutenancy without Consent of both Houses of Parliament shall be accounted a Disturber of the Peace of the Kingdom Whereupon His Majesty sent a Message to both Houses from Huntingdon Requiring Obedience to the Laws Established and Prohibiting all Subjects upon pretence of their Ordinance to Execute any thing concerning the Militia which is not by those Laws warranted Upon this the Parliament Vote a standing to their former Votes as also That when the Lords and Commons in Parliament which is the Supreme Court of Judicature in the Kingdom shall declare what the Law of the Land it to have this not only questioned but contradicted is a high Breach of the Priviledge of Parliament B. I thought that he that makes the Law ought to declare what the Law is for what is it else to make a Law but to declare what it is so that they have taken from the King not only the Militia but also the Legislative Power A. They have so But I make account the Legislative Power and indeed all Power possible is contain'd in the Power of the Militia After this they seize such Mony as was due to His Majesty upon the Bill of Tunnage and Poundage and upon the Bill of Subsidies that they might disable him every way they possibly could They sent Him also many other contumelious Messages and Petitions after His coming to York amongst which one was That whereas the Lord Admiral by indisposition of Body could not command the Fleet in Person He would be pleased to give Authority to the Earl of Warwick to supply his place when they knew the King had put Sir John Penington in it before B. To what End did the King entertain so many Petitions Messages Declarations and Remonstrances and vouchsafe His Answers to them when He could not choose but clearly see they were resolv'd to take from Him His Royal Power and consequently His Life For it could not stand with their safety to let either Him or His Issue live after they had done Him so great Injuries A. Besides this the Parliament had at the same time a Committee residing at York to spy what His Majesty did and to inform the Parliament thereof and also to hinder the King from gaining the People of that County to His Party so that when His Majesty was Courting the Gentlemen there the Committee was Instigating of the Yeomanry against Him to which also the Ministers did very much contribute so that the King lost His opportunity at York B. Why did not the King seize the Committee into His hands or drive them out of His Town A. I know not but I believe He knew the Parliament had a greater Party than He not only in Yorkshire but also in York Towards the End of April the King upon Petition of the People of Yorkshire to have the Magazine of Hull to remain still there for the greater security of the Northern Parts thought fit to take it into his own hands He had a little before appointed Governor of the Town the Earl of Newcastle but the Townsmen having been already corrupted by the Parliament refused to receive him but refus'd not to receive Sir John Hotham appointed to be Governor by the Parliament The King therefore coming before the Town Guarded only by a few of His own Servants and a few Gentlemen of the Country thereabouts was deny'd Entrance by Sir John Hotham that stood upon the Wall for which Act he presently caused Sir John Hotham to be Proclaim'd Traytor and sent a Message to the Parliament requiring Justice to be done upon the said Hotham and that the Town and Magazine might be delivered into His hands To which the Parliament made no Answer but instead thereof published another Declaration in
which they omitted nothing of their former Slanders against His Majesties Government but inserted certain Propositions declarative of their own pretended Right viz. I. That whatsoever they declare to be Law ought not to be questioned by the King II. That no Precedent can be Limits to bound their Proceedings III. That a Parliament for the Public Good may dispose of any thing wherein the King or Subject hath a Right and that they without the King are this Parliament and the Judge of this Public Good and that the King's consent is not necessary IV. That no Member of either House ought to be troubled for Treason Felony or any other Crime unless the Cause he first brought before the Paliament that they may judge of the Fact and give leave to proceed if they see Cause V. That the Sovereign Power resides in both Houses and that the King ought to have no Negative Voice VI. That the Levying of Forces against the Personal Commands of the King though accompanied with his presence is not Levying War against the King but the Levying of War against his Politic Person viz. his Laws c. VII That Treason cannot be committed against his Person otherwise than as he is intrusted with the Kingdom and discharges that Trust and that they have a Power to judge whether he hath discharged his Trust or not VIII That they may dispose of the King when they will B. This is plain-dealing and without hypocrisie Could the City of London swallow this A. Yes and more too if need be London you know has a great Belly but no palate nor taste of Right and Wrong In the Parliament Roll of Henry IV. amongst the Articles of the Oath the King at his Coronation took there is one runs thus Concedes Justas Leges Consuetudines esse tenendas promiâ—tes per te eas esse protegendas ad honorem Dei corroborandas quas Vulgus elegerit Which the Parliament urged for their Legislative Authority and therefore interpret quas Vulgus elegerit which the People shall choose as if the King should swear to protect and corroborate Laws before they were made whether they be Good or Bad whereas the words signifie no more but that he shall protect and corroborate such Laws as they have chosen that is to say the Acts of Parliament then in being And in the Records of the Exchequer it is thus Will yea grant to hold and keep the Laws and rightful Customs which the Commonalty of this your Kingdom have And will you defend and uphold them c And this was the Answer His Majesty made to that Point B. I think His Answer very full and clear but if the words were to be interpreted in the other sence yet I see no reason why the King should be bound to swear to them for Henry IV. came to the Crown by the Votes of a Parliament not much inferior in wickedness to this Long Parliament that Deposed and Murdered their Lawful King saving that it was not the Parliament it self but the Usurper that murdered King Richard II. A. About a week after in the beginning of May the Parliament sent the King another Paper which they stil'd The Humble Petition and Advice of both Houses Containing Nineteen Propositions which when you shall hear you shall be able to judge what Power they meant to leave to the King more than to any of His Subjects The first of them is this I. That the Lords and other of His Majesties Privy Council and all great Officers of State both at home and abroad be put from their Imployments and from his Council save only such as should be approved of by both Houses of Parliament and none put into their places but by approbation of the said Houses And that all Privy Counsellors take an Oath for the due Execution of their places in such form as shall be agreed upon by the said Houses II. That the great Affairs of the Kingdom be Debated Resolv'd and Transacted only in Parliament and such as shall presume to do any thing to the contrary to be reserved to the Censure of the Parliament and such other Matters of State as are proper for His Majesties Privy Council shall be Debated and Concluded by such as shall from time to time be chosen for that place by both Houses of Parliament And that no Publick Act concerning the Affairs of the Kingdom which are proper for his Privy Council be esteemed valid as proceeding from the Royal Authority unless it be done by the Advice and Consent of the Major part of the Council attested under their Hands and that the Council be not more than 25 nor less than 15 and that when a Counsellors place falls it shall not be supplied without the assent of the Major part of the Council and that such choice also shall be void if the next Parliament after confirm it not III. That the Lord High Steward of England Lord High Constable Lord Chancellor or Lord Keeper of the Great Seal Lord Treasurer Lord Privy Seal Earl Marshal Lord Admiral Warden of the Cinque Ports chief Governor of Ireland Chancellor of the Exchequer Master of the Wards Secretaries of State Two Chief Justices and Chief Baron be always chosen with the Approbation of both Houses of Parliament and in the Intervals of Parliament by the Major part of the Privy Council IV. That the Government of the King's Children shall he committed to such as both Houses shall approve of and in the Intervals of Parliament such as the Privy Council shall approve of that the Servants then about them against whom the Houses have just exception should be remov'd V. That no Marriage be concluded or treated of for any of the King's Children without consent of Parliament VI. That the Laws in force against the Jesuits Priests and Popish Recusants be strictly put in execution VII That the Votes of Popish Lords in the House of Peers be taken away and that a Bill be passed for the Education of the Children of Papists in the Protestant Religion VIII That the King will be pleas'd to reform the Church-Government and Liturgy in such manner as both Houses of Parliament shall advise IX That he would be pleased to rest satisfied with that course the Lords and Commons have appointed for ordering the Militia and recall his Declarations and Proclamations against it X. That such Members as have been put out of any Place or Office since this Parliament began may be restor'd or have satisfaction XI That all Privy Counsellors and Judges take an Oath the Form whereof shall be agreed on and setled by Act of Parliament for the maintaining the Petition of Right and of certain Statutes made by the Parliament XII That all the Judges and Officers placed by Approbation of both Houses of Parliament may hold their places quamdiu benè se gesserint XIII That the Justice of Parliament may pass upon all Delinquents whether they be within the Kingdom or fled out of it
taken and not long after sent to London but Cromwel marched to Edenburrough and there by the help of the Faction which was contrary to Hamilton's he made sure not to be hindred in his Designs the first whereof was to take away the King's life by the hand of the Parliament whilest these things passed in the North the Parliament Cromwel being away came to it self and recalling their Vote of Non-Addresses sent to the King new Propositions somewhat but not much easier than the former and upon the King's Answer to them they sent Commissioners to treat with him at Neaport in the Isle of Wight where they so long dodged with him about Trisles that Cromwel was come to London before they had done to the Kings destruction for the Army was now wholly at the Devotion of Cromwel who set the Adjutators on work to make a Remonstrance to the House of Commons wherein they require 1. That the King be brought to Justice 2. That the Prince and Duke of York be summon'd to appear at a day appointed and proceeded with according as they should give satisfaction 3. That the Parliament settle the future Government and set a reasonable period to their own sitting and make certain future Parliaments Annual or Biennial 4. That a competent number of the Kings chief Instruments be executed and this to be done both by the House of Commons and by a General agreement of the people testified by their Subscriptions Nor did they stay for an Answer but presently set a Guard of Soldiers at the Parliament House Door and other Soldiers in Westminster-Hast suffering none to go into the House but such as would serve their turns all others were frighted away or made Prisoners and some upon divers Quarrels suspended About ninety of them because they had refused to vote against the Scots and others because they had voted against the Vote of Non-Addresses and the rest were a House for Cromwel The Phanaticks also in the City being countenanced by the Army pack a new Common-Council whereof any forty was to be above the Mayor and their first work was to frame a Petition for Justice against the Xing which Tichboures the Mayor involving the City in the Regicide delivered to the Parliament At the same time with like violence they took the King from Newport in the Isle of Wight to Hurst Castle till things were ready for His Tryal the Parliament in the mean time to avoid Perjury by an Ordinance declar'd void the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance and presently after made another to bring the King to his Tryal B. This is a piece of Law that I understood not before that when many men swear singly they may when they are Assembled if they please absolve themselves A. The Ordinance being drawn up was brought into the House where after three several Readings it was Voted That the Lords and Commons of England Assembled in Parliament do declare That by the Fundamental Laws of the Realm it is Treason in the King of England to levy War against the Parliament And this Vote was sent up to the Lords and they denying their consent the Commons in Anger made another Vote That all Members of Committees should proceed and act in any Ordinance whether the Lords concurr'd or no and that the People under God are the Original of all just Power and that the House of Commons have the Supreme-Power of the Nation and that whatsoever the House of Commons Enacted is Law All this passed nemine contradicente B. These Propositions fight not only against a King of England but against all the Kings of the World It were good they thought on 't but yet I believe that under God the Original of all Laws was in the People A. But the People for them and their heirs by consent and Oaths have long ago put the Supreme Power of the Nation into the hands of their Kings for them and their Heirs and consequently into the hands of this King their known and lawful heir B. But does not the Parliament represent the People A. Yes to some purposes as to put up Petitions to the King when they have leave and are griev'd but not to make a grievance of the Kings Power Besides the Parliament never represents the People but when the King calls them Is it to be imagined that he calls a Parliament to depose himself Put the case every County and Burrough should have given for a Benevolence a sum of Money and that every County meeting in their County Court or else-where and that every Burrough in their Town-Hall should have chosen certain men to carry their several sums respectively to the Parliament had not these men represented the whole Nation B. Yes no doubt A. Do you think the Parliament would have thought it reasonable to be called to an account by this Representative B. No sure and yet I must confess the Case is the same A. This Ordinance contained First a Summary of the Charge against the King in substance this That not content with the Incroachments of his Predecessors upon the freedom of the People he had design'd to set up a Tyrannical Power and to that end had rais'd and maintain'd in the Land a Civil War against the Parliament whereby the Country hath been miserably wasted the Publick Treasure exhausted thousands of people murdered and infinite other mischiefs committed Secondly A Constitution passed of a High Court of Justice that is of a certain number of Commissioners of whom any twenty had power to try the King and proceed to Sentence according to the Merit of the Cause and see it speedily executed The Commissioners met on Saturday January 20. in Westminster-Hall and the King was brought before them sitting in a Chair He heard the Charge read but denied to plead to it either Guilty or not Guilty till he should know by what lawful Authority he was brought thither The President told him that the Parliament affirm'd their own Authority and the King persevered in his refusal to plead though many words passed between him and the President yet this is the sum of all on Monday January 22. the Court met again and the Sollicitor moved that if the King persisted in denying the Authority of the Court the Charge might be taken pro confesso but the King still denyed their Authority They met again January 23. and then the Sollicitor moved the Court for Judgment whereupon the King was requir'd to give his Final Answer which was again a denyal of their Authority Lastly They met again January 27. where the King then desir'd to be heard before the Lords and Commons in the Painted Chamber and promising after that to abide the Judgment of the Court the Commissioners retir'd for half an hour to consider of it and then returning caused the King again to be brought to the Bar and told him that what he propos'd was but another denyal of the Courts Jutisdiction and that if he had no more to say they
that point you will be better informed in the pursuit of this Narration B. But I desire to know first the several grounds of the Pretences both of the Pope and of the Presbyterians by which they claim a Right to govern us as they do in chief and after that from whence and when crept in the Pretences of that Long Parliament for a Democrasie A. As for the Papists they challenge this Right from a Text in Deut. 7. and other like Texts according to the Old Latin Translation in these words And he that out of Pride shall refuse to obey the Commandment of that Priest which shall at that time Minister before the Lord thy God that man shall by the Sentence of the Judge be put to Death And because the Jews were the people of God then so is all Christendom the People of God now they infer from thence that the Pope whom they pretend to be High Priest of all Christian People ought also to be obeyed in all his Decrees by all Christians upon pain of Death Again whereas in the New Testament Christ saith all Power is given unto me in Heaven and in Earth go therefore and teach all Nations and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and teach them to observe all those things that I have commanded you from thence they infer that the Command of the Apostles was to be obeyed and by consequence the Nations were bound to be governed by them and especially by the Prince of the Apostles St. Peter and by his Successors the Popes of Rome B. For the Text in the Old Testament I do not see how the Commandment of God to the Jews to obey their Priests can be interpreted to have the like force in the Case of the other Nations Christian more then upon Nations Unchristian For all the World are Gods People unless we also grant that a King cannot of an Infidel be made Christian without making himself subject to the Laws of that Apostle of Priest or Minister that shall convert him The Jews were a peculiar people of God a Sacerdotal Kingdom and bound to no other Law but what first Moses and afterwards every High Priest did go and receive immediately from the Mouth of God in Mount Sinai in the Tabernacle of the Ark and in the Sanctum Sanctorum of the Temple And for the Text in St. Matthew I know the words in the Gospel are not Go teach but Go and make Disciples and that there is a great difference between a Subject and a Disciple and between teaching and commanding and if such Texts as these must be so interpreted why do not Christian Kings lay down their Titles of Majesty and Soveraignty and call themselves the Popes Lieutenants But the Doctors of the Romish Church seem to decline that Title of Absolute Power in their distinction of Power Spiritual and Temporal but this Distinction I do not vell understand A. By Spiritual Power they mean the Power to determine Points of Faith and to be Judges in the Inner Court of Conscience of Moral Duties and of a Power to punish those men that obey not their Precepts by Ecclesiastical Censure that is by Excommunication and this Power they say the Pope hath immediately from Christ without dependance upon any King or Sovereign Assemblies whose Subjects they be that stand Excommunicate But for the Power Temporal which consists in judging and punishing those actions that are done against the Civil Law they say they do not pretend to it directly but onely indirectly that is to say as far forth as such actions tend to the hinderance or advancement of Religion in ordine ad spiritualia B. What Power then is left to Kings and other Civil Sovereigns which the Pope may not pretend to be in ordine ad Spiritualia A. None or very little and this Power the Pope not onely pretends to in all Christendom but some of his Bishops also in their several Diocesses jure Divino that is immediately from Christ without deriving it from the Pope B. But what if a man refuse Obedience to this pretended Power of the Pope and his Bishops what harm can Excommunication do him especially if he be a Subject of another Sovereign A. Very great harm for by the Popes or Bishops signification of it to the Civil Power he shall be punished sufficiently B. He were in an ill case then that adventured to write or speak in defence of the Civil Power that must be pun shed by him whose Rights he defended like Uzza that was slain because he Would needs unbidden put forth his hand to keep the Ark from falling But what if a whole Nation should revolt from the Pope at once what effect could Excommunication have upon the Nation A. Why they should have no more Mass said by any of the Pope's Priests Besides the Pope would have no more to with them but cast them off and so they would be in the same case as if a Nation should be cast by their King and left to be governed by themselves or whom they would B. This would not so much be taken for a punishment to the People as to the King and therefore when a Pope Excommunicates a whole Nation me-thinks he rather Excommunicates himself than them But I pray you tell me what were the Rights the Pope pretended to in Kingdoms of other Princes A. First and exemption of all Priests Friers and Monks in Criminal Causes from the Cognizance of Civil Judges Secondly Collation of Benefices on whom he pleased Native or Stranger and Exaction of Tenths Fruits and other Payments Thirdly Appeals to Rome in all Causes where the Church could pretend to be concern'd Fourthly To be the Supreme Judge concerning the Lawfulness of Marriage i e. concerning the Hereditary Succession of Kings and to have the Cognizance of all Causes concerning Adultery and Fornication B. Good a Monopoly of Women A. Fifthly a power of absolving Subjects of their Duties and of their Oaths of Fidelity to their Lawful Sovereigns when the Pope should think fit for the extirpation of Heresie B. This power of absolving Subjects of their obedience as also that other of being Judges of Manners and Doctrine is as absolute a Sovereignty as if possible to be and consequently there must be two Kingdoms in one and the same Nation and so no man be able to know which of his Masters he must obey A. For my part I should rather obey that Master that had the Right of making Laws and of inflicting Punishments than him that pretendeth onely to a right of making Canons that is to say Rules and no Right of Co-action or otherwise Punishing but by Excommunication B. But the Pope pretends also that his Canons are Laws and for punishing can there be a greater than Excommunication supposing it true as the Pope saith it is that he that dies Excommunicate is damn'd which supposition it seems you believe not else you
believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenants and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democracy and Depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should Act for their purposes But not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourable laid to their charge the main of the pulling them down was the Envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be govern'd A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-Bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be reveng'd on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their purses and win to their service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of Governing the whole World What is it they are Learned in is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preacht but matter of Philosophy for Religion in it self admits of no Controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls a greater skill in the Scriptures than other men have by reason of their breeding in the Universities and knowledge there gotten of the Latin Tongue and some also of the Greek and Hebrew Tongues wherein the Scriptures were written besides their knowledge of Natural Philosophy which is there publickly taught B. As for the Latin Greek and Hebrew it was once to the Detection of the Roman Fraud and to the Ejection of the Romish Power very profitable or rather necessary But now that is done and we have the Scripture in English and Preaching in English I see no great need of Latin Greek and Hebrew I should think my self better qualified by under standing well the Languages of our Neighbours French Dutch and Italian I think it was never seen in the world before the Power of Popes was setup that Philosophy was much conducing to power in a Commonwealth A. But Philosophy together with Divinity hath very much conduced to the Advancement of the Professors thereof to places of the greatest Authority next to the Authority of Kings themselves in most of the Antient Kingdoms of the world as is manifestly to be seen in the History of those times B. I pray you cite me some of the Authors and places A. First what were the Druids of old time in Britany and France what Authority these had you may see in Caesar Strabo and others and especially in Diodorus Siculus the greatest Antiquary perhaps that ever was who speaking of the Druids which he calls Sarovides in France saith thus There be also amongst them certain Philosophers and Theologians that are exceedingly honoured whom they also use as Prophets These men by their skill in Augury and Inspection into the Bowels of Beasts sacrificed foretel what is to come and have the multitude in obedience to them and a little after It is a custom amongst them that no man may sacrifice without a Philosopher because say they men ought not to present their Thanks to the Gods but by them that know the Divine Nature and are as it were of the same language with them and that all good things ought by such as these to be prayed for B. I can hardly believe that those Druids were very skilful either in Natural Philosophy or Moral A. Nor I for they held and taught the Transmigration of Souls from one Body to another as did Pythagoras which Opinion whether they took from him or he from them I cannot tell What were the Magi in Persia but Philosophers and Astrologers You know how they came to find our Saviour by the Conduct of a Star either from Persia it self or from some Country more Eastward than Judea were not these in great Authority in their Country And are they not in most part of Christendom thought to have been Kings Aegypt hath been thought by many the most Antient Kingdom and Nation of the world and their Priests had the greatest power in Civil Affairs that any Subject ever had in any Nation And what were they but Philosophers and Divines Concerning whom the same Diodorus Siculus saies thus The whole Country of Egypt being divided into three parts the Body of the Priests have One as being of most credit with the people both for their Devotions towards the Gods and also for their Understanding gotten by Education and presently after for generally those men in the greatest Affairs of all the King's Councellors partly Executing and partly Informirg and Advising foretelling him also by their skill in Astrology and Art in the Inspection of Sacrifices the things that are to come and reading to him out of their Holy Books such of the Actions there recorded as are profitable for him to know 'T is not there as in Greece one man or one woman that has thé Priesthood but they are many that attend the Honours and Sacrifices of the Gods and leave the same Imployment to their posterity which next to the King have the greatest Power and Authority Concerning the Judicature amongst the Aegyptians he saith thus From out of the most eminent Cities Hieropolis Thebes and Memphis they chuse Judges which are Council not inferiour to that of Areopagus in Athens or that of the Senate in Lacedoemon when they are met being in number thirty they chuse one from among themselves to be Chief Justice and the City whereof he is sendeth another in his place This Chief Justice wore about his neck hung in a gold Chain a Jewel of precious Stones the name of which Jewel was Truth which when the Chief Justice had put on then began the Pleading c. And when the Judges had agreed on the Sentence then did the Chief Justice put this Jewel of Truth on one of the Pleas. You see now what power was acquired in Civil matters by the conjuncture of Philosophy and Divinity Let us come now to the
and that all persons cited by either House of Parliament may appear and abide the Censure of Parliament XIV That the General Pardon offered by his Majesty be granted with such Exceptions as shall be advised by both Houses of Parliament B. What a spightful Article is this All the rest proceeded from Ambition which many times well-natur'd men are subject to but this proceeded from an inhumane and devilish cruelly A. XV. That the Forts and Castles be put under the Command of such Persons as with the Approbation of the Parliament the King shall appoint XVI That the extraordinary Guards about the King be discharged and for the future none raised but according to the Law in case of actual Rebellion or Invasion B. Methinks these very Propositions sent to the King are an actual Rebellion A. XVII That his Majesty enter into a more strict Alliance with the United Provinces and other Neighbour Protestant Princes and States XVIII That his Majesty be pleased by Act of Parliament to clear the Lord Kimbolton and the Five Members of the House of Commons in such manner as that future Parliaments may be secur'd from the consequence of evil Precedent XIX That his Majesty be pleased to pass a Bill for restraining Peers made hereafter from sitting or voting in Parliament unless they be admitted with consent of both Houses of Parliament These Propositions granted they promise to apply themselves to regulate his Majesties Revenue to his best advantage and to settle it to the support of his Royal Dignity in Honour and Plenty and also to put the Town of Hull into such hands as his Majesty shall appoint with consent of Parliament B. Is not that to put it into such hands as His Majesty shall appoint by the consent of the Petitioners which is no more than to keep it in their hands as it is Did they want or think the King wanted common sense so as not to perceive that their promise herein was worth nothing A. After the sending of these Propositions to the King and His Majesties refusal to grant them they began on both sides to prepare for War the King raising a Guard for his Person in York-shire and the Parliament thereupon having Voted That the King intended to make War upon his Parliament gave Order for the Mustering and Exercising the People in Arms and published Propositions to Invite and Encourage them to bring in either ready Money or â—late or to promise under their hands to maintain certain numbers of Horse Horsemen and Arms for the Defence of the King and Parliament meaning by King as they had formerly declar'd not his Person but his Laws promising to repay their Money with Interest of Eight Pound in the Hundred and the Value of their Plate with Twelve Pence the Ounce for the Fashion On the other side the King came to Nottingham and there did set up his Standard Royal and sent out Commissioners of Array to call those to him which by the ancient Laws of England were bound to serve in the Wars Upon this occasion there passed divers Declarations between the King and Parliament concerning the Legality of this Array which are too long to tell you at this time B. Nor do I desire to hear any Mooting about this Question for I think that general Law of Salus Populi and the Right of defending himself against those that had taken from him the Sovereign Power are sufficient to make Legal whatsoever he should do in order to the recovery of his Kingdom or the punishing of the Rebels A. In the mean time the Parliament raised an Army and made the Earl of Essex General thereof by which Act they declar'd what they meant formerly when they Petition'd the King for a Guard to be Commanded by the said Earl of Essex And now the King sends out his Proclamations forbidding Obedience to the Orders of the Parliament concerning the Militia and the Parliament send out Orders against the Executions of the Commissions of Array hitherto though it were a War before yet there was no Blood shed they shot at one another nothing but Paper B. I understand now how the Parliament destroy'd the Peace of the Kingdom and how easily by the help of Seditious Presbyterian Ministers and of ambitious ignorant Orators they reduced the Government into Anarchy but I believe it will be a harder task for them to bring in Peace again and settle the Government either in themselves or in any other Governor or form of Government for granting that they obtain the Victory in this War they must be beholding for it to the Valor good Conduct or Felicity of those to whom they give the Command of their Armies especially to the General whose good success will without doubt bring with it the love and admiration of the Soldiers so that it will be in his power either to take the Government upon himself or to place it where himself thinks good In which Case if he take it not to himself he will be thought a Fool and if he do he shall be sure to have the Envy of his subordinate Commanders who will look for a share either in the present Government or in the Succession to it for they will say Has he obtain'd this Power by his own without our Danger Valor and Council And must we be his Slaves whom we have thus rais'd Or is not there as much Justice on our side against him as was on his side against the King A. They will and did insomuch that the reason why Cromwel after he had gotten into his own hands the absolute Power of England Scotland and Ireland by the Name of Protector did never dare to take upon him the Title of King nor was ever able to settle it upon his Children his Officers would not suffer it as pretending after his death to succeed him nor would the Army consent to it because he had ever declared to them against the Government of a Single Person B. But to return to the King What Means had he to pay What Provision had he to Arm nay Means to Levy an Army able to resist the Army of the Parliament maintained by the great Purse of the City of London and Contributions of almost all the Towns Corporate in England and furnished with Arms as fully as they could require A. 'T is true the King had great disadvantages and yet by little and little he got a considerable Army with which he so prospered as to grow stronger every day and the Parliament weaker till they had gotten the Scots with an Army of 21000 Men to come into England to their assistance but to enter into the particular Narrative of what was done in the War I have not now time B. Well then we will talk of that at next meeting B. VVE left at the Preparations on both sides for War which when I considered by my self I was mightily puzled to find out what possibility there was for the King to equal the Parliament in
and Woods and whatsoever was remaining unpaid of any Subsidy formerly granted Him and the Tunnage and Poundage usually received by the King besides the profit of the Sequestration of great persons whom they pleas'd to Vote Delinquents and the profits of the Bishops Lands which â—troversie understood not the Reasons of either Party and for those that by Ambition were once set upon the Enterprize of changing the Government they cared not much what was Reason and Justice in the Cause but what Strength they might procure by reducing the multitude with Remonstrances from the Parliament-House or by Sermons in the Churches and to their Petitions I would not have had any answer at all more than this That if they would disband their Army and put themselves upon his Mercy they should find Him more Gracious than they expected A. That had been a gallant answer indeed if it had proceeded from Him after some extraordinary great Victory in Battel or some extraordinary assurance of a Victory at last in the whole War B. Why what could have hapned to Him worse than at length He suffered notwithstanding His gentle answer and all His reasonable Declarations A. Nothing but who knew that B. Any Man might see that He was never like to be restor'd to His Right without Victory and such His Statutes being known to the People would have brought to His assistance many more hands than all the arguments of Law or force of Eloquence couched in Declarations and other Writings could have done by far and I wonder what kind of Men they were that hindered the King from taking this Resolution A. You may know by the Declarations themselves which are very long and full of Quotations of Records and of Cases formerly Reported that the Penners of them were either Lawyers by Profession or such Gentlemen as had the ambition to be thought so Besides I told you before that those which were then likeliest to have their counsel asked in this business were averse to absolute Monarchy as also to absolute Democracy or Aristocracy all which Governments they esteemed Tyranny and were in love with Monarchy which they us'd to praise by the name of mixt Monarchy though it were indeed nothing else but pure Anarchy and those Men whose Pens the King most us'd in these Controversies of Law and Politics were such if I have not been misinformed as having been Members of this Parliament had declaim'd against Ship-money and other Extra-Parliamentary Taxes as much as any but when they saw the Parliament grow higher in their demands than they thought they would have done went over to the King's Party B. Who were those A. It is not necessary to name any Man seeing I have undertaken only a short Narration of the Follies and other Faults of Men during this trouble but not by naming of persons to give you or any man else occasion to esteem them the less now the faults on all sides have been forgiven B. When the Business was brought to this height by levying of Soldiers and seizing on the Navy Arms and other Provisions on both sides that no Man was so blind as not to see they were in an estate of War one against another why did not the King by Proclamation or Message according to his undoubted Right Dissolve the Parliament and thereby diminish in some part the Authority of their Levies and of other their unjust Ordinances A. You have forgotten that I told you that the King Himself by a Bill that He passed at the same time when He passed the Bill for the Execution of the Earl of Strafford had given them Authority to hold the Parliament till they should by consent of both Houses dissolve themselves If therefore He had by any Proclamation or Message to the Houses dissolv'd them they would to their former Defamations of His Majesties actions have added this That He was a Breaker of His Word and not only in Contempt of Him have continued their Session but also have made advantage of it to the increase and strengthning of their own Party B. Would not the King 's raising of an Army against them be interpreted as a purpose to dissolve them by force And was it not as great a breach of promise to scatter them by force as to dissolve them by Proclamation Besides I cannot conceive that the passing of that Act was otherwise intended than conditionally so long as they should not ordain any thing contrary to the Sovereign Right of the King which condition they had already by many of their Ordinances broken and I think that even by the Law of Equity which is the unalterable Law of Nature a man that has the Sovereign Power cannot if he would give away the right of any thing which is necessary for him to retain for the good Government of his Subjects unless he do it in express words saying That he will have the Sovereign Power no longer for the giving away that which by consequence only draws the Sovereignty along with it is not I think a giving away of the Sovereignty but an error such as works nothing but an invalidity in the Grant it self And such was the King's passing this Bill for the continuing of the Parliament as long as the Two Houses pleas'd But now that the War was resolv'd on on both sides what needed any more dispute in writings A. I know not what need they had but on both sides they thought it needful to hinder one another as much as they could from levying of Soldiers and therefore the King did set forth Declarations in Print to make the people know that they ought not to obey the Officers of the new Militia set up by the Ordinance of Parliament and also to let them see the Legality of His own Commissions of Array and the Parliament on their part did the like to justifie to the people the said Ordinance and to make the Commission of Array appear unlawful B. When the Parliament were Levying of Soldiers was it not lawful for the King to Levy Soldiers to defend Himself and His Right though there had been no other Title for it but His own preservation and that the name of Commission of Array had never been heard of A. For my part I think there cannot be a better Title for War than the defence of a Man 's own Right but the People at that time thought nothing lawful for the King to do for which there was not some Statute made by Parliament For the Lawyers I mean the Judges of the Courts of Westminster and some few others though but Advocates yet of great Reputation for their skill in the Common Laws and Statutes of England had infected most of the Gentry of England with their Maxims and Cases prejudg'd which they call Precedents and made them think so well of their own knowledge in the Law that they were glad of this occasion to shew it against the King and thereby to gain a Reputation with the Parliament of being good