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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30189	An answer to two treatises of Mr. Iohn Can, the leader of the English Brownists in Amsterdam the former called, A necessitie of separation from the Church of England, proved by the Nonconformists principles : the other, A stay against straying : wherein in opposition to M. Iohn Robinson, he undertakes to prove the unlawfulnesse of hearing the ministers of the Church of England ... / by the late learned, laborious and faithfull servant of Jesus Christ, John Ball.	Ball, John, 1585-1640.; Ashe, Simeon, d. 1662.	1642 (1642)	Wing B558; ESTC R3127	281,779	264

art 18. viz. when the place for Sacrifices was undetermined and then it had been Will-worship to put holinesse in places or opinion of worship But when God had chosen out and appropriated one place for Sacrifice and none other then it was a matter of necessitie holinesse and worship to sacrifice there and a great sinne to doe it any where else The reason hereof was not simply because it was not commanded for when it was lawfull to the Fathers of Old it was not commanded but left undetermined only and used by them as a circumstance or adjunct allowed not as a matter of necessitie holinesse or worship not could they have used it so without superstition as on the other side after the strict commandement given to Israel to sacrifice in the place which God had chosen and none other and the place of worship precisely determined for typicall signification it was a part of true worship in conscience necessarie for them to doe otherwise was grievously to transgresse and not to doe that which was commanded as necessary holy and worship had been prophanenesse For that which is commanded may not be neglected neither is any thing to be done which is repugnant thereunto But many things in the worship of God are not commanded or determined by God but left to the libertie of Christians many things were unprofitable and needlesse to be determined particularly by divine authoritie as being easily discernable by the light of nature and common reason and many things could not be determined because one order in them could not fit all ages times and places in the world The divisions of the Chapters and verses as they are in our Bibles and the Sections of the Law as among the Jewes are of men and so is the phrase of speech and method used in Prayer Preaching Administration of the Sacraments and the very words of Translations wherein the Scriptures are read and cannot be one and the same in all societies And so are the circumstances how oft at what houre on what day in what place the Pastor shall preach which are particular determinations of the Church and variable If you say these things are prescribed in generall and by consequence because they are done according to the rules of direction given in Scripture Of necessitie you must confesse the proposition is ambiguous for sometimes prescribed shall import as much as determined instituted commanded sanctifyed if not appropriated and sometimes it shall note no more but left at libertie or indetermined Neither will that sense stand in the proposition Synops purior theol disp 35. thes 17. Ab omni traditionum humanarum jugo liberas habeant conscientias cum solius Dei sit res ad religionem pertinentes praescribere for then it should be lawfull to place opinion of necessitie holinesse or worship in those things which are undetermined or not commanded of God which is contrary to the whole scope and drift of Scripture and the judgement of all Orthodox and sound Divines new and old To proceed more distinctly because it is a matter much insisted upon and as much mistaken and misapplyed by many Worship is as large as the Commandement nay as the whole Word of God Bald. de cons l. 4. c. 3. To the precepts of God nothing is to be added Deut. 12. Now God hath commanded these things which are necessarie The rites of the Church are not necessary wherefore if the abrogation or usurpation of any rite be urged as necessary then is an addition made to the commandement of God which is forbidden in the Word c. Dea. 12.2 4 1 2. 5.32 Lev. 18.4 Pr●v 30.6 Ambr de parad c. 12 tom 4. Nihil vel 〈…〉 gratia adjunger●n ●s debemus mandato Nihil vel quo● bonum videtur add●ndum Addendo de proprio semipl ●um Dei intellexit esse mandatum Docetnos 〈◊〉 praesentis series lection is nequ detra●●re aliquid debere diviris mand ●is neque addere For so it is ordinarily defined A worke commanded done in faith and then it must needs extend it self as far as the Commandement And if to obey God in conscience of his Commandement in all actions Civill and Sacred of Pietie Justice or Mercie be to Worship him then to beleeve whatsoever the Lord hath taught relying upon the truth and credit of the Revealer is worship also And hence it is that the Worship of God is usually divided into Immediate and Mediate Worship which comprehendeth all duties which we owe to God or Man Now if the way or manner of Worship be taken in this acceptation then the sense of the Proposition must be this That no action great or small done to God or man religious or sociall is lawfull unlesse it be prescribed of God And let us consider the passages of Scripture alledged by your selfe and others whether if rightly quoted they doe not affirme as much Whatsoever I command you that shall yee observe to doe Thou shalt not adde thereto neither shalt thou take ought from it To what might they not adde From what might they not diminish Is it not from the whole Law of God which teacheth the whole duty of Man both towards God and towards Man for the Lords sake Hereby the Lord establisheth his Word and his only and his whole word to be the intire rule of Faith and manners Hereby God appointeth his owne Word and Law to be the only rule of his Service without imitating the customes of others or devising any thing of their owne saith Master Ainsworth But if by the Service of God he understand the positive Worship of God only or the immediate only he straitneth the meaning of the Text overmuch Annot in Deut. 12.32 Procopius in loc verba enim Domini cum plena perfecta existant auctarium nullum admittunt Chrysost in 1. ca. 2. Epist ad Tim. hom 2. Si●quidem sidci dogma pervertat etiamsi angelus sit obedire noli Annot. in Lev. 18.4 Tert. de praescript advers haeret It is not lawfull for us to devise any thing of our selves nor follow that which others have devised See Cham. pans● tom 1. l. 8. c. 6. Rainold apol thes sect 2. p. 205 206 207. Hen Ainsw part 3. p. 150. He inferreth that generall admonition touching all the wayes of God and not the Ten Commandements only Doway annot in Deut. 4.2 12.32 Henry Ainsw 2. Answ p. 55. Prov. 30.6 Loe here all additions and not only things contrary are forbidden Ex. 23.13 Chrysoft oper imperfect hom 20. in 7. cap. Matth. Every Teacher is a servant of the Law because he may neither adde of his owne sense unto the Law nor according to his owne conceit taking any thing from the Law but preach that only which is found in the Law Qu. Co. p. 67. For it speaketh plainly of the whole Law and is fitly alledged to prove the perfection of the Scripture in all matters necessary to salvation and not

disliked by godly and learned men so the generall given for direction in such cases be observed 3 We hold it unlawfull outwardly and but in appearance to joyne with Idolaters in their Idolatry Many words in this matter might well bee spared But wee desire to see your commandement why for every particular act that in a large sense is Idolatrous adjoyned to the true worship of God Calfeb against Mar. art 10. p. 185 186. we should forbeare our presence at the worship it selfe or be said to communicate in the sinne there committed For then no man might present himselfe with good conscience at any publike worship of GOD wherein any thing is done amisse for matter or manner which is in effect to say hee cannot bee present at any at all 4 To communicate in the ordinances of God with the Ministers of the Church of England is not to like approve or reverence the institutions of men in the exercises of religion nor to communicate with the Teacher in his sin nor in ought else that is amisse For the worship is of God both for matter and manner And put case the Minister bee disorderly chosen enter not as he ought be Symoniacall covetous froward corrupt idle scandalous doe the people partake in his sin in that they make use of his Ministery No Scripture teacheth any such thing no reason doth confirm it noe approved authors ever said it That which you alledge for proofe falleth utterly short It appertaineth to the vertue of truth Dav. determ 7. p. 40. that as a man sheweth himselfe by externall signes so he is indeed to be esteemed And such as frequent or repair unto unlawfull assemblies for the publike worship of God by their being there are to be reputed of the same religion or else dissemblers as it were to have no care of religion knowing God Dovvay annot in 4. King 5.19 p. 778. but not glorifying him as God But herein you have misrelated the Doway translators for their words are But in a Christian countrey where all beare the name of Christians especially where men are at controversie about the true Christian Religion all that frequent or repaire unto the same assemblies for publike service of God are to be reputed of the same religion or else dissemblers Bodily presence at false worship by which they shew a liking unto it is unlawfull To eate of meates sacrificed unto Idols in the Idoll Temple Your condemning the worship of God performed in our assemblies as pernicious idolatry vvherein is it a lesser sinne han the Popes prohibition of publike prayer and restraint of the Word and Sacraments throughout the Realm you can neither shevv us warrant for it an the Scriptures nor example of it in the Church of God You that so teach and censure stand guiltie of great impietie and they that hearken unto your persvvasions are partakers of your iniquity in some sort of the vvrong imaginations of Christians Aug. in Tract ●o 19. saith Quae omnia idola cordis sunt T. Caepl 1. art 3. pag. 4. is to communicate with Idolaters These things are evident and freely granted But the Assemblie met to call upon God in the mediation of Jesus Christ alone to heare the doctrine of salvation soundly and purely preached to receive the Sacrament rightly administred is not a false idolatrous assemblie they that repaire unto it be not Idolatrous ●●false worshippers If you esteem of them as they shew themselves by out ward signes you must esteem them to be of the true religion and the true worshippers of God according to his will The ministerie in that assembly to be true sound and faithfull and of God of substance In this lieth the point of the controversie which you are contented to passe by in silence without any proofe at all But if any humane frailtie or infirmitie cleave to the ministerie or congregation in respect of doctrine manners lawes government or order which concernes not the life and soul but only the safety of the Church or wellfare of Religion In these a Christian doth not partake by his presence at the ordinances as the Scripture reason and the approved practice of the Saints in all ages of the Church do plentifully witnesse This is the judgement and practice of the Nonconformists and therefore they professe they praise God for this reformation so farre forth as it is agreeable to the Word of God they are glad the Word of God is preached that the Sacraments are administred that which is wanting they desire to be added that which is overmuch cut off But that a Christian must separate from the Word and Sacrament by reason of some superfluities or defects is no responsive conclusion that can be gathered soundly from their writings CAN Stay Sect. 5. pag. 66. In preaching of the truths of the Gospell by a false Minister an Idolatrous act is performed For Divine worship is not to be determined by a particular thing howbeit in it selfe good but as the essentiall parts belonging thereto whether they are persons or things are kept and observed The Church of Rome in Baptisme useth water and in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper gives bread and wine otherwhile too doth this cleare their administrations of Idolatry I think all men doe thinke that Vzziah committed an Idolatrous act 2 Chron. 26.16 when he invaded the Priests office But what made it so tooke he unlawfull incense no. Vsed he strange fire no. Offered hee prohibited Sacrifice or upon a wrong Altar No Where then lay the fault the Scripture telleth us Verse 18. it pertained not to him to burne incense unto the Lord but to the sons of Aaron To apply this if his act were Idolatrous because he wanted a calling howbeit observed many truths of the law By the same reason the Church acts of Artichristian Ministers are Idolatrous yea and as for the truths which they preach this cleares their acts no more from Idolatry than Vzziahs true Incense and the Altar quitted him from transgression ANSWER Your great words are of small force CAN. Stag. §. 3. p. 56. for should I speake my conscience it is your phrase They are words without weight of reason For still you presuppose the Ministerie of the Church of England to bee false and idolatrous which is to beg not to conclude the question But that being presupposed let us see how you goe forward In preaching the truth of the Gospell by a false Minister an Idolatrous act is performed you say But doth the Scripture say so Do you read it in the Law or in the Prophets in the Apostles or in the Evangelists The Scribes and Pharisees were false Ministers but it was not an Idolatrous worke in them to expound the Law of Moses or dispence other Church ordinances at that time commanded The popish Priests and Bishops are false Prophets but the simple administration of Baptisme by them is not an idolatrous act The Minister that is prophane and

Papists themselves who stand so much upon the necessitie of succession and ordination by three Bishops according to the constitutions of the Church Bellar. de Eccl. l. 3. c. 10. S. Ad Secundum are yet forced to acknowledge That to know that Pastors are true there is required neither faith not lawfull Election but this onely that they be acknowledged such of the Church and that they hold the place of Christ de facto though not de jure And seeing you pretend to build upon the Non-conformists principles you may take notice of their profession which is this Baptisme administred by Popish Priests is good and sufficient and they are to bee accounted for Ministers though they bee not good and lawfull Ministers but usurpers and intruders The like may be said of such as without ordinary calling An Examin of D. W. Cen. art 11 page 14. counterfeite themselves to be Ministers and so deceive the Church In these the secret consent of the Church receiving them for Ministers untill their wicked usurpation bee espied may be sufficient to authorize their ministery toward others CAN. Necess of Separ Page 234. If I were not unwilling to give occasion unto the Bishops to insult over these men I could hence manifest much bad dealing in them but I will forbeare for the present and do referre the Reader to their owne principles which is Jd. page 239. CAN. Necess of Separ p. 221. Are the Princes of the earth bound by Gods Lawes to maintaine the ordinary ministery of your Assemblies then have you from time to time shamfully mocked and abused them in craving so earnestly for their ayde to have and place thereof CAN. Stay Sect. 1. page 50. that all Ecclesiasticall officers ought necessarily to bee made by the free choyce of the Congregation wherein they are to administer And if they can prove all this I doe not see but the Controversie may easily be taken up betweene them and the Bishops only then they have just cause to begge pardon of them for their pleas against their Prelacy and the maine heavy accusations which they have put up both to Princes and Parliaments against them ANSWER Here you play the Rhetorician and make shew what you could doe but that you will for the present take some compassion upon the Non-conformists Whereunto I will returne no other answer than what you have made to my hand As for your minsing figure of extenuation I could hence manifest I like it not For you do here none otherwise than if a Thiefe when hee hath stript a man out of all that hee hath would faine yet bee counted mercifull in that he doth not murder him or binde him as some others have done Let any indifferent man read your writings and he will say you have not spared your opposites but shot at them Arrowes of bitter words and made them as odious and vile as man can do But blessed is hee that is not offended at the truth for such things Looke upon your selfe in that which you say against your opposites You referre your selfe to their Principles and they make nothing for you as it hath beene alreadly shewed and you might see your selfe if you did not shut your eyes The reason which here you bring is but your owne saying said over many times and indeed bewrayeth more cunning CAN. Stay §. 2. page 55. than reason truth or Consciene and to speake in your phrase sophistry than sincerity For in plaine termes this is your forme of arguing If the Episcopall ordination be not a meere nullitie Vnreasonabl of Separ page 54. I know none having received Ordination from the Prelates that need deny that they preach partly by vertue of the Ministery which they have taken from them T. C. repl 1. Ep. By exercising unlawfull authority and by taking unto them partly such things as belong by no meanes unto the Church and partly which are common unto them with the whole Church or else with others the Ministers and Governours of the same if the ministerie of the idle carelesse prophane yea of the learned godly and painefull be not a meere Idol then have the Non-conformists just cause to begge pardon of the Prelates which hangeth together as a rope of sand The ministery of the Priests Scribes and Pharisees was true in time of the Old Testament and in the dayes of our Saviour Christ had the Prophets then and our Saviour just cause to beg pardon because they accused them of ignorance pride tyrannie contempt of the truth oppressions hypocrisie as blind guides and ravening Wolves who spoyled and made havocke of the flockes The Non-conformists never deemed the ministery of the Church of England for the substance and essentiall parts therof to be false and Idolatrous nor craved the aide of the Prince and Parliament to have it quite or in part abolished you have just cause to begge pardon that slander them in this manner But they complaine of abuses in the ministery and these they desire might be reformed That the ministery might be more pure and incorrupt They complaine of the usurpation of some who challenge that as peculiar to themselves which belongeth to their brethren in common who admit the basest of the people into the office of the ministerie doe that by their sole pleasure which should be done by common Counsell King Canutus made a Lavv by the Counsell of his sages at Winchester That Bishops be Preachers and Teachers of Gods Law and carefull followers of good works Leg. 26. And that every Christian learne so much that he can the true faith and the true understanding therof namely the Lords Prayer and the Creed or else not to have Christian buriall neither to bee admitted whiles he liveth to the Lords Table c. Amb. de dignit sacerdot ca. 3. Quantò prae caeteris gradus Episcopalis altior est tanto si per negligenti●m dilabadur ruina gravior est Magna sublimitas magnam debet habere cautelam CAN. Stay S. 12. p. 120 Honor grandis grandiori debet solici●udine circumvallors and disregard the consent and approbation of the Church both in Ordinations and excommunications and if the ministery of the Church of England be true for substance might they not without blame desire and crave the reformation of this abuse they complaine of the pompous Non-residents who feede themselves and regard not the flocke strive after preferment and heape up livings but labour not in the word and doctrine nor look after the welfare of mens soules they accuse these as the poyson and bane of the Church or unfaithfull shepheards who leave the flock to be dispersed and scattered and yet they will not say their ministery is false or Idolatrous or a meere nullitie doe they then shamefullly mocke or abuse the Prince or Parliament in petitioning that this grosse corruption might be reformed They accuse the ignorant carelesse prophane Ministers of neglect of their office and unworthy any place