left and to be the greatest was an honour and ciuil preheminence and authoritie next vnto Christ in such his kingdome that they shot at He reprooued therefore this erroneous conceit and for thinking that ciuil iurisdiction should appertaine to them as they were apostles and drew them to another consideration of his heauenly kingdome If they desired that to be giuen them to haue the very condition state of their persons so aduanced with earthly honor authoritie ciuil in regard of some speciall affection which each of thē seuerally supposed Christ did beare vnto him in this respect was it their ambition the was reprooued But if ech of thē thoght such an honor due to himself by reasō of some excellēt qualities aboue others which he fansied to be in himself then was their arrogancie and want of humilitie withall rebuked And lastly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the brawle contention that all the apostles burst foorth into about this matter was by our Sauiour taxed and blamed Now the BB. in this church of England do not claime any ciuil iurisdiction or authoritie to be incident to their callings although if as citizens of the common weale subiects some such be imposed vpon them by the prince as they may not lawfully refuse so we know they may lawdablie vse it But if either erroneously any of them should thinke ciuil iurisdiction of or vnder earthly princes to belong vnto them as successors of the apostles or if they seeke after any authoritie whatsoeuer ambitiously arrogantly or contentiously such should iustly incurre our Sauiors censure and reproofe in this place In that by the law and customes of the land they haue the title of lordes this is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 simplie in it selfe in regard of their bishoprikes but by reason of the Baronries which are annexed of old vnto those dignities yet it is but a mere title of external honor as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with the Gręcians Dominus with the Latins without any authoritie or iurisdiction annexed For there is neuer a lord in the land either of the ecclesiastical or ciuill state that hath any iote of authoritie or iurisdiction in him as he is a Baron Neuertheles the apostles and BB. their successors are not therfore without all rule superioritie for they are termed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ouerseers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gouernements or gouernors 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 men set ouer others 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rulers guides or directers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 feeders rulers which they cannot be except they haue some rule gouernment authoritie But this rule and authoritie is but ecclesiasticall whereas that which was affected by the apostles was ciuill which ecclesiastical authoritie whether it be wholy or in part condemned by that generall doctrine there deliuered by our Sauior doth now rest to be considered We are therfore in these words Vos autē non sic it shal not be so amongst you to note these two things viz. vnto whom such prohibition reacheth what rule it is which is there forbidden First it was not spoken to the apostles as they represented the whole Church as may appeare by the example the Christ propoundeth to thē of his own abasing of himself Neither was it forbiddē so to euerie one of them seuerallie as if it might haue bene permitted to them all together or to the greater part of them Quia nihil est in composito quod non est in simplicibus vel actu vel saltem habitudine If no one of thē might exercise such rule nor any part of it thē cannot they altogether haue it neither yet was the prohibition personall to them for then it would follow that albeit no one of them might haue authoritie ouer the rest yet their successours neuerthelesse whether more properly taken as bishops or generally as all ministers of the word might haue had such authoritie as is there forbidden which were absurd to imagine so that the prohibition reacheth to thē all to euery one of them to their successours also The whole difficultie therfore now resteth in this what kind of authoritie or rule either ecclesiastical or ciuil it is which vnder the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is forbidden And because there are many resemblāces between ecclesiastical ciuil authoritie the exact laying foorth of ciuil authoritie serueth aptly for the vnderstanding of the other I wil distribute ciuil or temperal authoritie into his parts differēces according to Arist other Politiciās Authoritie ciuil or temporal as we speake is either oeconomical such as is exercised within the limits of one family or Politicall ouer greater societies Oeconomicall is either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the husband ouer the wife being the most moderate Or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the authoritie of the father ouer the children being more ample or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is of two sortes either of the housholder ouer such of his houshold as bee of condition free men and is lesse milde then the other two or of the Lord ouer his bondmen and villaines which is most seuere and absolute of all the others Politicall authoritie is either supreme that is Soueraigne or els subordinate and delegated Soueraigne or supreme is either Absolute called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is of two sortes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Seigneuriall such as the good Emperors of Rome had and vsed who though they had all authoritie in thē without restraint so that their word was a law yet did they vse it according to the rules of ciuill honestie iustice or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tyrannous where not onely their will is a law but they also vse it contrary to all rules of ciuill honestie or iustice as the Empire of the Turkes Russes and other Barbarians or limited by certaine boundes of lawes That which is Soueraigne and yet limited is also of two kindes either wholy limited by lawes as is the authoritie of ordinarie chiefe magistrates in all free common weales as the dukes of Venice c. or restrained but in part as for the most part in all monarchies and kingdoms For albeit kings and such soueraigne Monarches are so tied to lawes as that they cannot dispose of their subiects liues or liuelihood and goods contrary to them yet are they at libertie to allowe or disallow lawes to be made to enhance or decrie the price or standerd of their coines to pardon offenders condemned by law and to make warre or peace truce or league Those which haue subordinate or delegated authoritie by the supreme magistrate they may not claime nor exercise more then is allowed vnto thē either by commissiō or by law Of all these authorities there is none as I take it simply vnlawfull but the tyrannicall gouernment which maketh self-wil a law And therefore this both here and also by other places
obserue Demonstration is set downe in the word But they are to teach obedience to the particular forme of gouernment Math. 28.20 Ergo the particular forme is set downe To the Maior The Maior is vndemonstrable not reciprocall most false Remonstrance The Ministers need not teach all that is set downe Which is the conuersiue of the Maior An instance is Instantia soluit argumentum Many things in Moses lawe as to abstaine from bloud are not of necessitie to be taught to bee obserued which neuerthelesse are distinctly set downe The error hereof resteth in the ambiguitie of this word set downe whether particularly or generally set downe be vnderstood Ministers are to teach obedience to the particular forme of gouernement and lawes ciuill of any lawfull common wealth Ergo all ciuill lawes are particularlie set downe in the Scripture To the Minor The Minor proceedeth of Supposall Ex suppositione sequitur quidlibet Supposing that gouernment of necessitie to bind vs they must necessarilie teach it vs Supposing that our Sauiour Iesus when he sayd 28. Math. 20. ver Absurditie of the Demonstrator Goe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Teach and make disciples baptizing and teaching them to obserue all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that I haue commaunded you c. did commaund their discipline It will easilie follow as if he did preposterously commaund a faithfull conuersation before conuersion to the faith or as if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 alludeth onely vnto discipline not respectiuelie looketh to the whole summe of Christianitie which the Apostles were to teach so they may dallie for their discipline with any place You know the old prouerbe Abegger is neuer out of his way Eckius to prooue transubstantiation alleageth Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie These men to turne doctrine into discipline all into gouernment euerie way is an high way euery coniecture is an inuincible demonstration to shewe and present vs with the face or maske of disguised discipline The 15. Demonstration Euery gouernment consisteth in the matter and maner Demonstration But in the word is described the particularitie of both as in the 9. Demonstration Ergo the word hath prescribed a prescript gouernment Here is a conclusion in 2. figura affirmatiuè Remonstrance and by a leape from described to prescribed quatuor termini To the Maior Things coincident are considerable together All gouernment consisteth not in the matter and maner onely but in the efficient and finall causes also As God the author and beginning in Christ and the glory of God which is the scope or latter end To the Minor The Minor is very false but to retort it If both matter and manner be described then what neede your variable Synodicall discipline or any moe orders at all as the Barrowists contend and you would seeme to oppugne The 16. Demonstration Cyprian saith Demonstration Sermone de baptismo Christi From Scripture rules of all doctrine haue sprung and hither doth returne whatsoeuer the Ecclesiasticall discipline doeth conteine The wordes of Cyprian are Remonstrance De bapt Christi manifest Trinit Legat hoc verbum in hoc mandato meditetur Christiana religio inueniet omnium doctrinarum regulas ex hac Scriptura emanasse hinc nasci huc reuerti quicquid Ecclesiastica continet disciplina in omnibus irritum esse friuolum quicquid dilectio non confirmat Cyprian speaketh of loue and charitie he treateth not there of an Ecclesiasticall pollicie but thereby meaneth onely the doctrine of the Church which is recapitulated in loue which chapter being very briefe of one word I would our Discipliners had once read ouer Cyprian right well did skill of Christian discipline viz. a rule of doctrine which is another manner thing then this fansied discipline of Church-frame which you pretend to haue being a salte discipline not the salte of discipline which Cyprian woulde haue Te docente ad siccandas corruptionum mearum putredines prodesse cauterium Sermone de bapt Christi mundare cicatrices veteres salem disciplinae tuae Euangelio tuo medente infusum God being the Doctor or heauenly doctrine is of as great auaile as a burning yron to seare vp the rottennes of putrified flesh the salte of discipline sprinkled vpon vs out of the diuine Gospell doeth mundifie olde sores and purge and heale them cleane In both which places you see that which he first called doctrine he after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 calleth discipline Therefore this salte of discipline might very well serue to mundifie and heale the wound of charity which you haue made Luculentam plagam declarat cicatrix 2. Philip. the scarre whereof in the forehead of our Church doeth manifestly appeare But I perceaue the Demonstrator for all his bragge is but a sorie reader of Cyprian or had his allegation gathered to his hand and neuer had the leasure to reade ouer Cyprian The 17. Demonstration We may not giue our selues the libertie to bring in any thing that other men bring of their will Demonstration we haue the Apostles for authors who themselues brought nothing of their owne will But the discipline which they receaued of Christ Tertul. de praescript adu haere they deliuered faithfully to the people I take your meaning Remonstrance and not your wordes Your quotation is of Cyprian but your meaning of Tertullian who hath such like wordes Nobis ex arbitrio nostro indulgere nihil licet speaking against the doctrine of men and deuils vt aeones formas nescio quas trinitatem hominis apud Valentinum as the Commentator vpon Tertullian doeth obserue Tertullian directeth those wordes against Marcion and Apelles and others Tertullian saith we may not giue our selues libertie neither abridge others of their Christian libertie Tertullian is not contrary to Tertullian else where he requireth consanguinitatem doctrinae consanguinitie of doctrine from Christ and his Apostles downeward so that it is plaine to him that weieth the place he meant of doctrine If he had meant it of the pollicie and outward gouernment of the Church it maketh not against ours which for the substance of it we are readie to auerre to be grounded of the worde and taught by the Apostles and reteined euer since in the Church theirs being neuer heard of till about 50. yeeres agoe it was set vp in one towne being a popular state The 18. Demonstration It is adulterous Demonstration it is sacrilegious whatsoeuer is ordeined by humane furie that the diuine disposition should be violated Cyprian speaketh of Heretikes Remonstrance and of Schismatikes who departed from the Church as our Puritanes doe from the vnitie of the godlie proceedings established in the Church against Foelicianus and the fiue Priestes Nunc apparet Foeliciani factio vnde est quibus viribus quibus radicibus staret hij fomenta quibusdam confessoribus hortamenta tribuebant ne concordarent cum
Demonstration it is either in respect of his excellencie aboue other men or the place whereof he is aboue other places But neither of these haue euer bene or hereafter can be ergo You might haue remembred the old rule Remonstrance that from insufficient enumeration of the parts or of the causes the argument doth not hold or this fallacie is of the consequent as saieth Aristotle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when you mistake the cause The lawfulnesse of his office is in regard of his superioritie grounded on the word of God and in respect of his authoritie wherewith he is put in trust by the prince and Parliament But I answere thus If the office of the seignorie be lawfull it is either in respect of the excellencie of the men or of the most illustrious and celebrated place not the first for an Artisan elder is as good and substantiall an elder as any Earle or honourable man and by their owne platforme he must sit cheeke by ioll by the noblest Erle or counseller of the land Neither the second for no place is better or worse vnto them who seeke for equalitie Non locus virum sed vir locum honestat The place giueth not credite to the man but the man to the place ergo the seignorie is not lawfull in respect of the man or place and consequently hath none authoritie or gouernment The 1. Allegation Caluin lib. 4. Institut cap. 11. sect 7. Demonstration Beza in the booke of diuorcements speaketh against iurisdiction of bishops and others substitute officers If you alleage new writers one for one Remonstrance we haue an Oliuer for a Rowland if you alleage two wee can produce twise so many Bullinger and Musculus Hemingius Gualter and Zanchus c. But our meaning is not to muster authorities or recite the names of authors Pauperis est numer are pecus Goe rather to the things then names Caluins wordes are against the papists Iurisdictionem suam spiritualem iactant Romanenses Hee alloweth in his institutions Patriarkes Archbishops and bishops in the primitiue Church Shew any impietie in the offices of ours more then in those Beza speaketh against their dealings in those causes that know more in such causes any one of them then 20. of his Assistants in Eldership but if you alleage the onely fathers and begetters of presbyteries for them we will set Ridley and Iewell for bishops as learned as these in all respects and as godly The 2. Allegation Peter Martyr vpon the 13. to the Romanes Demonstration speaketh agaynst ciuill Iurisdiction in Bishops and by the same reason condemneth it in their substitutes Peter Martyr speaketh not against any iurisdiction Remonstrance which is a furtherance but popish iurisdiction which is a hinderance to the Gospell But whatsoeuer Peter Martyr saith we say this to you Bishops in respect they are bishops in England haue no ciuill iurisdiction for the distinction of ciuill and ecclesiasticall matters is more priciselie and vpon greater penalties here retained then else-where in all Christendome If it bee said some matters they handle bee ciuill that are called ecclesiasticall wee aske whether oeconomicall matters bee not a part of ciuill wherein they are as husbandly nay niggardly as any and further demaund a rule out of Gods word of them that vrge this as a sinne whereby to know a specificall difference betweene ciuill and Ecclesiasticall causes They cannot say because some of those which Ecclesiasticall courtes here handle bee accounted else-where ciuill therefore they may not be here Ecclesiasticall for of the contrary some matters here mere ciuill are else-where holden Ecclesiasticall As for example in Geneua and Scotland they inflict censures on those which for ciuill enormious crimes the magistrat hath punished or pardoned as felons manslears such like and all their presbyteries euen that among the Englishmen at Middleborough vse to deale with qualifiyng of forfeitures of bonds and accounts betweene hard masters and their prentises and other such Chancerie matters much more therefore those may iustly be accounted ecclesiastical which the law ciuill magistrate do put ouer to ecclesiastical mē better thē those which being in truth mere ciuil are intruded vpō the presbyteries Causes beneficial viz. for titles and maintenance of Ministers causes matrimonial diffamatorie with breach of charitie where none action lieth in ciuill Courts punishment of sinnes not punishable by the ciuil Magistrate and of reparations of churches churchyards which are all the heads of matters that bishops may hādle sauing testamentarie you wil I hope allow to be Ecclesiastical As for testamentary causes euen at the common law of this land they haue bene alwaies made Ecclesiasticall both because that lawe hath litle direction in those causes but such as is borrowed from the ciuill and Ecclesiastical lawes and for that mens last wils at least were wont do conteine sundrie demises for Churches orphanes poore captiues and such like good vses whereof the Church had the fourth part and wherein Bishops are intended to be most carefull to minister right indifferently to all for performance of the deads will Any iurisdiction ciuill which Bishops or some Ecclesiasticall persons haue is not claimed by them as due to their functions but imposed by the Prince as vpon subiects seruiceable for the Realme and for a credite to their places as Counseller Ambassador Iustice of the Peace c. For seeing they are subiects freemen and citizens of the Common-wealth besides their ministerie of the Church I would knowe whether they owe not this dutie being imposed on them vnto the Common-wealth and their Prince But we shall not I trust neede to perswade much with these men for they are not so squemish of ciuill honor and function as they would then seeme whiles their malignant eies are onely fastened vpon Bishops For where they haue sway neither prince nor Magistrate shall proclaime feast or fast treate of league peace or warre with any Prince nor make any ordinance without their aduise * The example of the reuerend learned man they will haue Deputies of the Churches in Parliament when they haue shut out Bishops and they thrust their Elders and Ministers vpon Kings to sitte with their other Counsellors as was not long since practised Is any matter most ciuil euen almost of least moment determined at Geneua without Beza insomuch as when troubles increase he omitteth his readings and preachings sundry times Is he not of the counsell of 60. in that state was not Villiers Secretarie of estate to the Prince of Orenge and further if we may beleeue the Chaos de Politia ciuili ecclesiastica Lib. 3. which Law Cha. was so earnest to haue printed at Leyden ministers and persons Ecclesiasticall in that they are citizens may nay in respect they are wise learned ought to be of counsell of Princes in affaires ciuill of the Common-wealth and to giue especiall direction euen in setting vp and deposing of Princes
〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance with reply a very barbarisme or nugation for it followeth that they diuided Churches into Churches for the Church alwaies is a Congregation You might haue quoted if you had a quote where the Apostles by constitution did diuide nationall Churches into Diocesses or Diocesses into Parishes The Councell of Nice in very deede appointed to bishops certaine of them their bounds and limits of iurisdiction though sundrie bishoprikes were appointed before In which diuision the diuision of the ciuil state of Rome into Prouinces Diocesses Prefectures De Rep. Rom. c. was for the most part followed as Lazius testifieth The fourth Chapter Assertion of the Demonstrator IT belongeth to the Church to elect the Officers which Christ would haue placed Demonstration and not to the Patrons c. Therefore that which is practised in the Church of England must returne to Antichrist The practise of this Church is neither of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Remonstrance false Christ nor of Antichrist but drawne from the purest times of the Primitiue Church For neither in the Apostles times nor any times after that I can reade of is there pregnant proofe to be found that for the choise and ordination presbyteri alicuius of any priest or pastorall elder onely for there were no Lay elders heard of any moe then one bishop was required In deede when a bishop was to be chosen it is often to be founde in the Primitiue Church that the priestes or pastorall elders which for most part then liued in the great cities where bishops Sees were planted though according as the bishops thought good they were sent out into the territorie a dioyning to preach baptize and minister the supper being with the people assembled and often with the Metropolitane and some other bishops direction did nominate whome they thought good to haue chosen for their bishop whome if the people liked they would crie Dignus est iustus est he is well worthie he is a iust man If they liked him not who was named they would with great clamours yea often times with outrages of blowes and murther importune them to another nomination So that there was no scrutinie of suffrages of the people as hauing interest but a tumultuarie proceeding and acclamation or exclamation of the multitude present at such actions Therefore the olde Canons speaking hereof doe vse for the most part but the wordes Testimonij ciuium conscientiae populi of testimonie of Citizens and knowledge of the people with which these elections of bishops onely were made but because they breede great tumults sedition and murders as the ancient Fathers and histories of the Church testifie they were abrogated both by counsell and appointment of Christian Emperours vpon whome by lawe the people in al matters had bestowed their whole right since which time the priests of seuerall Sees in the name of the rest which we cal now the Chapters of Cathedral Churches haue had the election of their bishops being if the Emperour or prince thought good directed to some one speciall man by his nomination In England according to the auncient common law of the land the prince granteth leaue to the Chapter to elect a bishop to the void See which licence is called Conge d'eslire and withall sendeth letters to them nominating him whom her maiestie vpon graue aduise of her honourable counsell iudgeth fit requiring their choise of him The election being made she giueth her roiall assent vnto it requiring the Archbishop to confirme the election if it be dulie canonically made after with two other bishops to consecrate the elect the day and place for confirmation whereof is published a competent time afore that if anie thinke good to propound against the person of the man or forme of election they may be heard After this confirmation followeth the consecration according to the prescription of the booke then is the bishop to doe his homage personallie to her maiestie for his temporall reuenues and after to haue them restored vnto him Now to the temporalties of a bishoprike a Baronrie by law is annexed whereby he is a lord of the parliament Other ministers in the dioecesse are to be examined approoued and ordained by the bishop hee and such other ministers as be present at the ordination laying their hands vpon them And when any is presented to a set place or benefice by the patrone thereof the bishop is to examine his life and learning and to institute him in title thereunto after hee haue approoued of him This course of placing in the title of certaine roumes or benefices grew by these degrees and meanes which will not be amisse also to point at because many that will needs be medling either know it not or are wilfullie ignorant At first as was shewed afore the bishop and all his clergie liued in a kind of communitie in the citie wherof he bare the name of bishop he and they going abroad at certaine most conuenient times to preach and minister the Sacraments in the territorie adioining at what time all Church reuenues of the whole dioecesse whether landes tithes oblations or legacies were in common amongst them but at the distribution of the bishop One fourth part whereof was emploied pro mensa episcopali for the B. hospitalitie another to maintaine those of the Clergie the third for building and repairing the churches of the citie rest of the dioecesse the fourth for redemption of captiues for the poore for other godly vses But when sundry persons partly vpon deuotion and partly the rather induced to haue the nominating of a Minister thereto had built and endued diuers Churches in places farre distant in the countrey abroad so that so many seuerall parishes could not conueniently nor so often be respected by those who attended alwaies about the Bishop sauing at certaine set times and that the former cōmunitie began through multitude of the clergy being for the most part in one place and sundry other inconueniences to bee ouer-troublesome and also enuious then in most parts of the christian world they grew to a diuision of all the church reuenues so that the bishop the clergie that was to remain in the cathedrall church of the chiefe citie and the clergie of the rest of the dioecesse had euery of them their seuerall portions allotted as was thought expedient Out of which euerie of them seuerallie besides their owne maintenance was afterward to defray for the reparation of the fabrikes that were to be vpholden by them to relieue the poore c. as their seuerall abilities should serue In so much as the bishop who first was as a common past our of the whole dioeces as the common law also at this day doth account him and had afore towards the vses aforesaid the common reuenues of the Church in title as a kind of proprietarie himselfe did then at the presentation of the founders or Patrons to whom the Canons gaue
charge wherewith they are credited or Officials for the offices they beare are most Christian names else why doe themselues so often call their Tetrarches Church officers a name not founde in Scripture neither discipline in their sense nor classis nor prouincial or nationall Synode As for the pillar the Minor leaneth vpon to proue their offices and practise to be deriued from Antichrist it is weake and vnstable viz. All founded vpon the Canon lawe is grounded vpon a dunghill Some dunghill scholler made this Minor to diminish and detract from the authorized Canons of the Church vnder the odious name of the Popes lawe For the Canon lawe which is reteined with vs is nothing but the olde Canons of the Primitiue Church and such other approoued Iudicials in matters Ecclesiasticall as be neither contrarie to the prerogatiue royall nor to the lawes and statutes of the Realme and which had bene vsed before the making of that acte of Parliament 25. H. 8. are therefore since by diuerse actes in K. Ed. 6. daies and in her Maiesties honoured with the name of the kings Ecclesiastical lawes and the Ecclesiasticall lawes of this Realme and they are in like sorte vsed in the Ecclesiasticall Consistories of most of the reformed Churches in Germanie as they are here who doe as litle esteeme the Pope as we can doe Neither are some of those which were set downe by the Popes authoritie therefore vsed of vs as binding this Realme in respect of the ordeiner any more then Italy Fraunce or Spaine be said to acknowledge the authoritie of the Romane emperours ouer them for vsing the ciuill lawes For we doe therefore onely practise them because they concurre with the former statute enacting them and being set downe by good aduise are found equal and profitable Those who disdaine them in respect of the author doe shewe therein as witlesse curiositie as if they would vrge vs to abandon all printing because it was deuised first at Harlem by a Papist or ceasse to defende our selues with gunnes for that a Monke inuented them But if the matter retained displease them as not conuenient nor according to rules of equitie let all the wisest of them take all the seuerall cases propounded throughout that lawe and giue diuerse or cleane contrarie decisions to that which is there giuen and they shall thereby easily finde themselues either ridiculous absurde or vniust lawgiuers The most of them are such as haue happened may happen in Church gouernment If they can finde the decision of them in the worde of God directly we will then abandon all other Canons and onely followe theirs The Church may not be without lawes in externall gouernment and to referre all to the gouernours will were a steppe to all tyrannie and insolencie As for the slaunder to call Christian Magistrates or once to compare them to maisters of the stewes they being the Ecclesiasticall lawes of this Realme is a more filthie and beastly phrase of speech Aconitum spunia Cerberi then Cerberus the hound of hell could spewe But we are too wel acquainted with these fowle blasphemous mouthes it is but sutable to the opinion they cary of the supreme Christian Magistrates and of their lawes Ecclesiasticall or Common The 4. Demonstration They that being inferiors doe tyrannize ouer their superiors Demonstration ought not to rule the Church but such as they doe tyrannize ouer the ministers to whom they are inferiours by the Canon lawe ergo they ought not to rule the Church This is not the issue in question Remonstrance for we say not that they are to rule the Church but are ministers of iustice according to the ordinances of the Church The Maior is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet true so long as they doe tyrannize ouer their superiours they ought not to rule the Church To the Minor therefore They who execute their office with correspondence to their dutie and according to lawes doe not tyrannize neither are they in place of iustice inferiour but are inferiour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in respect of the dignitie of the office of the ministerie But this office of ministerie doth not alwaies worthie the person aboue euery calling though not so sacred else should euery ministers person be aboue any Lorde or the Prince himselfe that chiefly dealeth but in matters of this life Besides surrogatus sapit naturam surrogantis If then the bishop who doth appoint them be aboue an ordinarie minister then are they also In place of iustice a meane Gentleman is superiour to a Duke conuented and so is a poore Constable in matters of his office by reason of them who giue the authoritie and whose persons they beare But thus we turne it home againe vpon themselues They that being inferiours doe gouerne the superiours according to their owne will Retortion without any direction of lawes they doe proudly tyrannize and consequently neither are to rule the Church nor in the Church But your Lay elders being of inferiour calling as your selues confesse to your Pastors and Doctors and much more to the whole Congregation doe gouerne them euen to the displacing or censuring them according to their owne wils and discretions without all direction of lawes which is tyrannie and their platformes doe abrogate all lawes but of their owne making which are not yet framed and in deede experience teacheth that their Consistories will not willingly tie themselues to any set lawes in their gouernment which maketh their decrees concerning diuers persons where the matter neuerthelesse is the selfe same to be so diuers and contrarie ergo Your laie elders doe proudly tyrannize and so neither are to rule the Church nor in the Church The 5. Demonstration They who liue by the faults of men are not fit to rule the Church Demonstration But all Chancellors Officials Commissaries doe so Ergo To the Maior It is very false if it bee meant per accidens to liue by faults Remonstrance as here it must needs be for in this sort doe all iudges iudiciall officers and ministers hauing fees liue by the wrong that the one partie doth to the other So the clerkes of the crowne of gaole deliuerie and of peace doe liue by the pleas against traitors murderers felons and other malefactors c. and yet lawfull in the common weale why not the like in the Church Nemo militat proprijs stipendijs To the Minor O rash and temerarious iudgement What art thou that iudgest an other mans seruant you may remember Horace saying Mendax infamia terret Quem nisimendosum mendacem They do not liue but by honest fees though they grew by occasion of faults as the least part of them in deed doth if any doe and therefore the Minor very false and slaunderous The matters whereupon their fees doe rise are either beneficiall tending to the title and maintenance of the ministerie or testamentarie tending to the performance of the deads will or
is simply forbidden to all Christians both in ciuill ecclesiastical gouernment Now to apply these more neerely by the authoritie the bishops haue in this realme a matter so impugned by these men It cannot be resembled vnto oeconomicall albeit in some sence a bishop is called the father of those in his charge and the husband of that church whereof he is bishop that for two causes First in that his authoritie is not contained in the straites of one familie but reacheth ouer many seuerall families and congregations of people Another for that the bishops authoritie is tied by lawes not only what not to do but he is appointed also what to doe whereas oeconomicall authoritie hath no publike lawes positiue commaunding a man howe to gouerne his familie but onely negatiue what they may not doe in that gouernment as not to wound nor kill wife childe nor seruant c. As for supreme authoritie whether Ciuill or Ecclesiasticall absolute or limited our bishops neither haue nor claime It is that which they cōdemne in the Pope by this place as well for that as successor of the Apostles he claimeth both swordes all earthly kingdomes to be his to dispose sinon actu saltem habitu as Bellarmin distinguisheth as for that in matters Ecclesiasticall he claimeth and vsurpeth not onely Seigneuriall but euen tyrannicall authoritie For he saith he may iudge all and be iudged by none may carry millions of soules to hell and none may say to him Domine curita facis Sir why doe you so may command Angels to carry and recarry soules at his pleasure may pardon sinnes past to come for so long or short a time as him listeth and in matters of Ecclesiastical liuings nay in all causes may doe what he list and therefore is iustly condemned by this place as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one exercising a Lordly absolute and tyrannous authoritie There resteth then vnto bishops of this Realme none other but subordinate or delegated authoritie which they haue partly from God partly from the soueraigne christian Magistrate From God they haue either first to plant or else to gouerne and direct Churches already planted to ordeine ministers and deacons and likewise the vse of the keies either by loosing the penitent according to Gods worde or binding the impenitent which last is done by admonition reprehension suspension excōmunication and by anathematisme The three first of which censures are with vs euen in practise common to all ministers of the word so farre as suspension is taken for debarring from the sacramēt of the supper The last two though by all practise of antiquitie in purer times they were principally and especially attributed to bishops yet not so but that other ministers of the worde vnto which the keies are annexed may not vnlawfully herein concurre with them if the lawes of the Church for weightie causes doe not otherwise dispose which they haue done here in England as I take it by reason of the sundrie ciuill effects which excommunication and anathematisme by lawe doe worke and are such as without great inconuenience and confusion cannot be permitted to euery minister in his cure that haue but slender skil no direction of lawe in this behalfe none autentique seales to certifie of record nor temporalities to be seised for not performance of the Queenes writtes that lie in such cases as de cautione admittenda de excommunicato deliberando c. And these former be the pointes wherein bishops authoritie is from God and not of man but now from the soueraigne Prince by the mediating of lawes bishops haue set downe vnto them the places where the compasse of territorie howe farre the manner howe with other circumstances of executing both the former authorities and also their iurisdiction Likewise they haue assistance of their iurisdiction sundrie waies from the Prince and lawes for the sounder execution thereof and better bridling of offenders as to burne an Heretike to imprison a person obstinately remaining excommunicate aboue 40. daies with such like Lastly they haue the heads and matters wherein their iurisdiction is occupied by and from the Christian Magistrates authoritie in whome as supreme Gouernour all iurisdiction within her dominions aswell Ecclesiasticall as Ciuill by Gods and mans lawe is inuested Such matters in this Church of England so attributed to bishops are causes of titles of benefices matters of maintenance for Ministers vpholding of Churches and Churchyardes of matrimoniall contracts and diuorces testamentarie diffamatorie where there is breach of charitie and none action lieth thereupon at the Common lawe or lastly punishing of sundrie crimes termed Ecclesiasticall being such as are not at all punishable at the Common law or els are left by lawe to be punished by either authoritie And in this respect may this part of bishoply function not vntruely be saide to be deriued from the supreme Christian Magistrates authoritie and supremacie which they haue vnder God By which may appeare both the vndutifulnes of Popish Bishops and of the factious Consistorials the first whereof deriueth their iurisdictions Ecclesiasticall within all Christian kingdomes from the Pope and the other will needes deriue theirs immediately from God and that in larger manner and in moe matters then bishops in England may any way exercise for they of the faction attribute therein no more vnto soueraigne Princes but to be gouerned in that behalfe by them and to defende the exercise thereof by their temporall sworde whereas our bishops cannot make any newe Ecclesiasticall decrees without the Princes authoritie both precedent and subsequent and in the whole course of their function are tied strictly and precisely to obseruation of due course of lawe which if either negligently or wilfully they shall violate it is remediable by appellation the last resorte wherein is to the Soueraigne Prince her selfe who heareth and finally determineth it by her Iudges delegated So that by this discourse it plainely appeareth that our Bishops neyther clayme nor yet exercise any ciuill authoritie at all as Bishops that their authoritie Ecclesiasticall is but subordinate vnder God and the Prince moderated exactly both positiuely and priuatiuely by good lawes deriued for the moste parte from the Prince and reformable by her Not supreme not absolute not tyrannicall not Seigneuriall nor Lordely according to the Rulers luste And therefore no way touched or meant much lesse by these places condemned as the Demonstrators Assumption more boldely then eyther skillfully or truely importeth But out of these groundes thus wee reason and bende the nose of the Cannon against themselues If the bishops authoritie be condemned by these two places as they would inferre then is all greater and more absolute authoritie exercised by persons Ecclesiasticall much more to be condemned But your selues doe claime and exercise greater and more absolute authoritie then the bishops namely to haue your Consistoriall iurisdiction not deriued from the Princes authoritie but supreme vnder God and that in all
continuance in the Gospel let it stand to the worldes end if not quid dignum tanto feret hic promissor hiatu To the Minor The madde sicknesse of your reason and disproportion appeareth in the answere there There is no correspondence of any eldership either to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the greater number of 70. or of the 23. which is said to be the lesse which do you challenge 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speake plainely if you dare or else the reason will retire vpon you thus That gouernment which neuer was vnder law or Gospel Retortion for essence or accidence of Church pollicie may not be continued or begun in the Church The eldership fancied ouer men matters hath neither originall of time nor priuiledge of authoritie Ergo the golden eldership may not begin or continue in the Church The 12. Demonstration If this eldership be alterable being once setled Demonstration either it is in respect of the extraordinary offices ceassed or of the addition of the magistrate Not the first for if the Church doeth neede God doth euer giue giftes extraordinary nor the secōd for the magistrate is to defēd the building of the church Ergo. You might haue saued your paines in the antecedent Remonstrance for alteration foloweth or succeedeth that which was and doth not succeede that which is not That which neuer was in the church admitteth no alteration no more then Tragelapsus or Hyppocentaurus or the man in the moone if you wil haue an issue in the question let it be this where a Christian magistrate is there needeth no eldership it is ex super abundanti and where it wanteth God also hath other wayes then by such mixture of offices to gouerne the church But thus I retort To euery institution of his that hath neede Gods sends gifts extraordinary To your elders that want ordinary giftes fitte for so great gouernment hee sendeth no gift extraordinary Ergo your Eldership is not his institution The 13. Demonstration Either this is the best gouernment and perpetuall or none at all Demonstration but some gouernment must be the best and perpetuall Ergo this is perpetuall This is handsomely concluded this is best and worst Remonstrance or none at all better none at all then neuer a whit the better better nothing then this Anarchicall or tumultuarie gouernment vnlesse perchance you holde praestat malè esse quà m non esse But there is a Christian ecclesiasticall gouernment already though you will not see it Christ in the middest of vs though some do not know it You must proue your disiunctiue Maior a litter better The 14. Demonstration Demonstrat Cofes Helue Tig. Ber. Gen. Pol. Hu. Scot. Horm Cap. 8. No man may iustly forbid de to returne to the olde constitution of the Church of God If you proue this to be the olde and the institution to be for a perpetuitie then this olde constitution is the best Remonstrat The 15. Demonstration Experience teacheth this order was not for one but necessary for all ages Demonstrat Caluin inst lib. 4. cap. 3. sect 8. It is certaine that experience proueth it not so necessarie nor profitable for else the Apostles would not haue instituted and al succeeding ages followed so diuers an order of Church gouernmēt by Byshops which Zanchus thinketh was of the holy Ghost The 16. Demonstration Though the common wealth change her gouernment Demonstra P. Mar. 3. Rom the Church must keepe hers That is Remonstrance the lawes of the eternall lawgiuer for the essentiall matters of the Church gouernment not external pollicie which is variable Belike your meaning is our common wealth must change our Monarchie into Tetrarchie to establish your Tetrarchicall gouernment of the Church The 17. Demonstration Bucer dereg Christi lamenteth that some would not haue the same discipline vsed now adayes which was vsed in the Apostles time Demonstration And so may we lament the foolish and proud resistance which is made to the superioritie of our prelates and gouernours Remonstrance which is no other then that was The 18. Demonstration Whittaker contra Duraeū speaking of discipline Demonstration The Apostles haue written these lawes not for a day or for the first age but for all times to come and that with obtestation 1. Timoth 6. Aetatem habet Remonstrance the man is of discretiō let him answere for him selfe It cannot be he meant your rules of discipline he knoweth the absurditie of it and that your presbyterium est figmentum humanum and is no such commandement as Paul maketh obtestation to haue kept The 1. Obiection of the Demonstrator By this euery Parish shall follow Demonstration their Seniors and then there will be so many diuers fashions seeing one may not meddle with another Answer of the Demonstrator The gouernment desired is vniforme for euery Church and admitteth no change not in outwarde ceremonies without a Synode of choise men out of euery Eldership Here is nothing but eldership vpō eldership Remonstrance with reply infinite elderships which the word of God describeth not what neede we exchāge the vniformitie which we already haue for that which is at the least suspicious to any well-sighted eye if not pernitious But if one Eldershippe will breede molestation in the planting of it at all aduentures what a doe will it make in the supplanting thereof Quae nascentia mala sunt ea crescentia peiora They must haue he saith vniformitie euen in ceremonies not to be changed without a Synode of choise men And were not ours so established And yet they will not obserue them May not we make as bolde with their ceremonies and vse as small vniformitie as they doe now The 2. obiection of the Demonstrator If the Eldership being meane men choose an Erle he must be at their becke The answere of the Demonstratour Demonstrat No man chosen is compelled against his will but he that despiseth to consult with others in Gods matters because they be poore reprocheth God that made them 17. Prou. 5. Heare this O ye princes and Earles of the land you must be at the Elders becke and commaunde Remonstrance or else you blaspheme your and their maker Salomons words are 17. Prou. 5.14 cap. 31. verse He that mocketh or he that oppresseth the poore not a word of Elders This is a contradiction to your selfe Any Earle or any man may choose or refuse to take it vpon him because euery one hath a negatiue voyce and yet he must be taken to disdaine if he doe refuse The 3. obiection of the Demonstrator It ouerburdeneth the Parish to prouide for so many Elders to be nourished Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator They shall not neede vnlesse they neede the liberalitie of the Church They shall not neede vnlesse they need This is a fine reciprocation Remonstrance They will neede foorth with
Rabbyn of you all Alas the Iesuites desire no better match then to haue a Puritane come to reason with them they are so farre to seeke in the controuersies I am assured more sounde arguments may be drawen out of that Lawe against the Pope and Poperie then three of the best of our Puritanes can bring out of all their readings Gentiletus a Protestant lawyer hath confuted the Tridentine Council euen out of the Decrees of Gratian. The 8. Demonstration That which destroyeth the Church Demonstra cannot be good to rule But the Canon lawe destroyeth it for it crosseth euery faithfull Minister in discharge of his duetie Ergo. Hinc illae lachrymae Remonstrance Lex non est posita iustis there is no lawe but for lawlesse men If all the olde Canons and course of law were gone then you were safe ynough you and your Elders would be Popes in your owne Parishes And is in deede the Church destroyed when any of you be crossed in your maner of discharging your Ministerie The Church I perceiue with you hath many significations The 9. Demonstration That which hath bread more traiterous Papists in England Demonstrat then the Seminaries of Rhemes and Rome cannot be good but the Canon law c. Ergo. This is a seditious and franticke Paradoxe Remonstrance well you shall haue somewhat for the making your credite shal be in the next Demonstration none shall beleeue you Belike they were conuerted to Poperie by the studie of the Canon lawe euen as like as if a man woulde say that your discipline is able to conuert from Poperie to the Gospel The 10. Demonstration That which nourisheth the hope of Antichrist to come in againe Demonstrat cannot be good But the Canon lawe for it keepeth the cages of these vncleane birds as Archbishops Lord bishops Arches Cathedral Churches Ergo. This birde would sing in a Bridewell cage Remonstr if he be not caged in another maner of cage or deplumed rather for libelling against Iudgement seates and Colleges of the Prophets O shamelesse follie as if Poperie were come in it coulde not bring with it the whole Popes lawe though it were abrogated in the meane time The 11. Demonstration That which all the Churches haue cast off as vnfit Demonstrat cannot be good But all the Churches that haue forsaken the Pope haue cast it off Ergo. The Maior tendeth to Donatisme or Brownists Antichristianitie Remonstr To the Minor An instance is The reformed Churches of Germanie Denmarke and Sweden that retaine much of it and so our Church But they will denie ours perhaps to bee a Church reformed What follie were it where a case happeneth with a iust equall decision to determine the contrarie because hee was an ill man vnder whose authoritie it was first published Though Rich. 3. was an vsurping tyraunt his lawes were very good and are yet reteyned and so are the sounde iudgements that were giuen in times past by Papistes Iudges and badde men The 12. Demonstration We our selues mislike it as appeareth by a statute of Edwarde the 6. Demonstration We doe not mislike but abridge Remonstrance an abridgement or exception vnto part is not misliking of the whole By an abridgement no more was intended then to haue it perfectly knowen what was profitable to be reteined as not contrary to the prerogatiue Royall nor lawes of the land O golden Demonstrations of a leaden Demonstrator The fifteenth Chapter Assertion GOuernours of the Church may not meddle but in matters Ecclesiasticall onely as vocation abdication Demonstration in deciding of controuersies in doctrine and maners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience and censures of the Church This Assertion is laid out by him Remonstrance not so much to signifie what apperteineth to Church gouernours as what not apperteineth viz. ciuill causes which he fancieth that Bishops doe exercise and to claime as appertayning vnto their functions By abdication hee meaneth deposition of Church officers the worde signifieth properly a voluntarie putting away of an office but hee thinketh it is abdication when it is taken away against a mans will such a fault may be forgiuen to a poore smatterer in learning when he taketh it vp at a more learned mans hand per fidem implicitam and he only to be blamed that thus serued him on trust The French disciplines both and their practise together with the booke written in confirmation of that discipline do attribute to euery consistorie or Eldership authoritie and power to make lawes ecclesiasticall This part of power our men neuer reach at plainely in direct termes because it were likely to be enuious perhaps would proue eyther too hotte or to heauie vnto them And it is wisely me thinketh considered of them besides for when all other lawes for Church gouernment are once taken away then shall their power be more absolute if none in their steade be set downe but all left to their owne wils And seeing they haue left to themselues deciding of all controuersies in doctrine and manners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience there is still measure large ynough in their owne handes to supplie this want at the full for this one limme of authoritie will carry all causes though most ciuill in their nature and practise out of all Courtes in the land vnto their Elderships First the Chancerie that decideth matters of controuersie by conscience is clearely dammed vp and may goe picke paigles And are any other ciuill Courtes in better case no verely for can any controuersie be betwixt man and man but it appertaineth to conscience to giue the matter contended for vnto him to whō of right it is due You may not therefore maruaile hereafter if you chaunce to heare a man excommunicated by them among whom this discipline reigneth for refusing to cancell a band if they thinke it vnconscionable or denying to acquitte a debte though it were with the creditors vndoing This forsooth is no ciuill cause or matter at the cōmon law though Littleton would depose twētie times that it were By vocation I thinke they meane the first nomination of a man vnto the people for an ecclesiasticall office They leaue out election because they would seeme more popular then the French discipline that giueth to the Eldershippe both vocation and election but by that time the cardes bee dealt out you shall see all comes to one passe for whom they nominate he is thereby chosen if the people do not gainesay it and if they all doe there must also a cause be both alleadged and allowed by the Eldershippe before he can be reiected They mention not here ordination by imposition of hands vpō the elected by the Eldershippe but we see by other places that they haue an eye vnto it not to loose it I will aske therefore all the learned of that side where by any pregnant place they finde ordination of Ministers of the worde with imposition of