allow him tâ—… translate he has done Thucidydes well As to the last sort of Gentlemen the grave and sâ—…ill Admirers who think no mans Style Method and Politicks like Mr. Hobbs's I shall only desire them to suâ—…er me to tell them where those Politicks lie viz. he went and read and considered the Laws and Staâ—…utes of our Realm and then went on and supposâ—…d that in every place if there be any Prince at all he must be absolute and unlimited whom he mounted so high at last as that he should not be only sufficiently above all men but above God himself and all Religion and having given him such a full brimmer of Power and Authority to be sure he had raised him above our Form of Government and this his Prince you take for a rare Prince and these his Politicks for rare Politicks Whereas it is plain in his Common-wealth there is nothing at all new but only saucy impudent reflections upon the Laws Constitutions and Government of our Realm And don't mistake your selves he 's every whit as much against the Civil Power as Ecclesiastical And suppose that you are willing to excuse him yet His Majesty likes such money as is given him by the Parliament and such Laws as they advise him to make and thinks himself Prince enough and is contented with his place though according to the strict Rules of Soveraignty and Mr. Hobbs's definition of a Monarch he can't make Bibles nor turn God out of the World As for the rest of his Politicks they are such as are known to every Dragoon and when he writ them as he pretended for the immortal Peace of his Country he might e'en as well have put out a Regular System to teaâ—…h people how to charge a Gun or cleanse the Streets It is possible Reader that thou mayst now expect I should give thee some account of the following Dialogue but I have no mind to 't only whereas some in a Book against Mr. Hobbs might look for close and serious arguing thou art to understand that I was always ready for it but never could find an opportunity For when I had pulled a pieces Mr. Hobbs's Phrases and changed his affected words into such as were familiar I always found that to confute him throughly was only to understand him aright And if by the instances I have given others are convinced thereof I have my design A SECOND Dialogue BETWEEN Philautus and Timothy Phi. HOW Tim not hang'd your self yet Tim. In my opinion Bristol is a very prâ—…tty Town Phi. Surely thou wert at cross purposes last night what has Bristol to do with hanging Tim. The most that can be Sir And I wonder of all men that you should noâ—… perceive it 'T is a train Sir and as plain beaten road as from St. Albans â—…o Barnet or from St. Andrew to Tumult Phi. Whâ—… is there such a Town any where upon the road as Tumult Tim. A very â—…amous one in the fourth Chapter of your Humane Nature and according to the account you â—…here give of it 't is nothing near an hours riding from St. Andrew thither For the mind being mounted at St. Andrew starts thence and runs to St. Peter because in the same Gospel their names are read together Having got to St. Peter it makes forthwith for stone for the same reason from stone it goes to foundation because they are seen together and then from foundation it switches away presently to Church and from Church to people and from people to Tumult Phi. All this is very natural and Coherent the passage being smooth and easie but how shall we get from Hanging to Bristol I doubt that is a kind of a cross road Tim is it not Tim. I must confess there 's one place a little hard to hit but from Bristol to Hanging 't is impossible to miss For the mind getting up at Bristol away presently it rides for Flintshire from Flintshire it goes to Hamshire and so to Hempshire Ropeshire Pippin Phi. Pippin whereabouts are we now what have we to do with Pippin Tim. This Pippin Sir was he to whom Alderman Cooper the great Turkie Merchant was so nearly related Phi. How dost mean what did this Cooper marry one of Pippins Daughters Tim. No Sir he was of the whole blood upon my word for he was only Son of Mr. Hooper who came from a Greekish kind of Man one Hoper and he from Dioper and he again from Diaper and then it runs alone to Pippin Alas Thought is very swift and set but the mind once agog and how it whews it away Phi. I shall not come to you to learn how swiâ—…t Thoughts are nor yet how that they are all necessary Tim. No if you do you 'l loose your journey for I know no such thing Phi. What don't you know don 't you know that there is a necessary coherence and order a fatal and irresistible occasion a drift a clue and Chain of all thoughts Tim. Not in the least not I. Phi. Then thou knowest nothing belonging to the Brain nor didst thou ever take into consideration my principle of motion Tim. I have tasted Sir of a Calfs head and Bacon and I was in the great wind and yet I humbly conceive that though a Mans legs be tyed never so fast and his mouth stitch'd up never so close he may notwithstanding that pay it away with thinking if he be but in the right queu When the Purse is empty and the Phaâ—…sie low then indeed the mind usually is very modest and governable and goes only to leap-Frog and skips perhaps from Cooper to Pippin or â—…rom St. Andrew to Tumult But let the mans belly and pockets be but once refresh'd and then presently he is Cock-a-hoop then he takes Hedg and Ditch Church and Steeple and struts and straddles like the great Colossus at Rhodes Now methinks I am just in the very middle of Smyrna Now I am at As in praesenti Now I am for a Dish of Cucumbers and Mustard and after all this nothing will satisfie me but Adam and Eve and the North Wind. Hey day how I can range sometimes and make the whole World to spring and flutter before me Phi. This now I perceive is intended for frolick and phansie but that thou maist see Tim that thou hast no hopes of ever having the credit of being distracted I shall shew thee that in this great flight that thou hast made and these great jumps that thou hast taken there 's nothing else but meer train and drift and thou hast as absolutely crept on from hint to hint and motive to motive as ever Child did that lean'd upon its Mothers Apron-strings And in the first place as for Smyrna I take it for granted that it was an unavoidable thought Tim. Do you so then you must take it all alone for you are not likely to have my Company Phi. Why has not the word Smyrna by some means or other been formerly impuls'd upon you Surely
Why Sir you know â—…hat a little slice or so of a trope or figure gives a fine relish and hogoo 'T is as good Sir as an anchovy or shalot Phi. A relish and a hogoo to what I prethee to a Treatise of Philosophy or Dominion or to directions for travelling by which Gentlemen may come to understand the Generatioâ—… of a Common-wealth and afterwards become helpful in Government I 'le give leave to a Jugler or Barber to put into their common tittle tattle their relishes and hogoos their anchovieâ—… and shalots but when Divineâ—… shall tell you Lev. p. 17. of in-powred vertue and in-blown vertue as if vertue were tunn'd into a mans mind just as new drink is into the Vessel and of this and that man being extraordinary assisted and inspired as if it were not more credit for a man to speak wisely from the principles of nature and his own meditation than to be thought to speak like a Bagpipe by inspiration I say when such things as these creep into serious reckonings and Philosophical Bills then then 's the mischief â—… perceive Tim that thou never didst read the 5th Chapter of my Leviathan for if thou hadst thou wouldst have there found that amongst the many causes of the absurd opinionâ—… that have been in Philosophy there has not been any greater than the use of Metaphors Tropes and other Rhetorical figures instead of words proper For as I there go on though it be lawful to say for example in common speech the way goeth or leadeth hither or thither the Proverb says this or that whereas ways cannot go nor Proverbs speak yet in reckoning and seeking of truth such speeches are not to be admitted Tim. What neither back-stroak nor fore-stroak I know Philautus that you have spent much time in this sort of reckonings and therefore you must needs be a notable accomptant in Philosophy but when I find as â—… do in your Treatise call'd Computation that a Proposition is the first step iâ—… the progress of Philosophy that a Syllogism is a compleat pace trot or gallop in Philosophy being made by the addition of steps and that method is the high-way that leads to Philosophy where note though 't is not proper in reckoning to say that the way either goes or leads yet I perceive that Propositions and Syllogisms may both walk and gallop provided it be in the way to Philosophy again Sir when I read Levi. p. 108. that a Common-wealth is an artificial man 't is as like him as ever it can look 't has got just de Father's nose and de powting lip or an aggregate of Puginellos made for the attaining of peace and that the civil laws are only artificial Chains so the Dutch broke the civil Law that went cross the River at Chatham which men by mutual Covenants have fastned at one end to the lips of tâ—…e man or Assembly to whom they have given the Soveraign power and at the other end to their own ears I 'd scarce have the place to be so fastned Phi. What if I do say this is this like the teeth of time and your sieves and scummers Tim. Moreover Sir when you instruct us Lev. p. 115. in all the several sorts of Systemes of people this Systeme I look upon to be a kind of Bastard anchovy or wild shalot that belong to a Common-wealth and how that these systemes resemble the similar parts of a body natural and if they be lawful systemes they are as the muscles of the body but if unlâ—…wful they are Wens Biles and Apostems engendred by the unnatural conflux of evil humours and how that a conflux of people to Market or a Bull-baiting though it be a lawful systeme yet 't is an irregular systeme by reason 't is not order'd by law which Dog shall play first or which man shall sell the first rowl of Ginger bread and that the Corporation of Beggars Thieves c. though they may be regular systemes having a representative yet they are not to be looked upon as lawful Systemes being not as yet allow'd of by publick authority the brick shall be out of hand burnt for the Halls against the Parliament meet next Phi. What of all this Tim. Nay I pray Sir don't interrupt me let me make an end of my sentence and that as the several systemes of people are the similar parts of a Common-wealth so the publick Ministers are the organical part of a Common-wealth resembling the Nerveâ—… and tendons that move the several limbâ—… of a body natural and that publick persons appointed by the Soveraign this is all Mathematickâ—… to instruct or judge the people are such membâ—… of a Common-wealth as may be fiâ—…ly compared to the Organs of voice in thâ—… body natural and that the service of Sheriffs Justices of the peace c. is answerable to the hands in the body natural And that if a man be sent into another Country secretly to explore thâ—… counsels and strength iâ—… he comâ—… only to see he may do well enough but if he comes to explore and bâ—… catch'd he may chance â—…o be hang'd he is to be look'd upon as a Minister oâ—… the Common wealth though but private and may be compar'd to an eyâ—… in the body natural and very well for a blind man makes a very bad Scout but those publick Ministers that are appointed to receive the Petitions or other informations of the peo ple are as it were the publick ear of the Common-wealth I profess this artificial man thrives bravely I hope the cheeks and the chin of the Common-wealth will come on by and by besides Sir when I look Phi. What han't you done your sentence yet Tim. Alas Sir I have but just begun my hand is but just in I say when I look into the 24th Chapter above-cited of the nutrition and procreation of a Common-wealth and observe how that the commodities of sea and land are the nourishment of the Common-wealth and tâ—…at propriety or the constitution of meum aâ—…d tuum is the distribution of the materials of this nourishment and that buying selling c. is the concoction of the commodities of a Common wealth which concoction is as it were the sanguification of the Common-wealth being perform'd by money which is the very blood of a Common-wealth for as natural blood is made of the fruits of the earth and circulating nourishes by the way every member of the body natural so money is made out of the fruits of mens labours and running up to Town and then down again into the Country nourishes those politick members that live upon the road Phi. Surely now you have done Tim. And when I observe further how that the Collectors Receivers and Treasurers are the Conduits and Vessels by which this blood of money is convey'd to publick use and that the publick Treasury is as the heart of the Common-wealth so that as the veins receiving the blood from the several parts of the body carry it to
SOME OPINIONS OF M R HOBBS Considered in a Second DIALOGUE BETWEEN Philautus and Timothy By the same Author LONDON Printed by J. Macock for Walter Kettilby at the Sign of the Bishops-head in S t Pauls Church-yard 1673. TO THE Most Reverend Father in God GILBERT By Divine Providence Lord Archbishop OF CANTERBURY Primate of all ENGLAND and Metropolitan and one of His Majesties most Honourable Privy-Council c. May it please your Grace SEeing your Grace has already withstood the displeasure of such a threatning Philosopher and Politician as Mr. Hobbs and not publickly disown'd or renounc'd the protection of my former Dialogue I have ventured to anger our Adversary once more by prâ—…suming to offer this second to your Graces acceptance and pardon Which presumption although the continuance of your Graces favours towards me might almost excuse yet it is the great insolence and great extravagance of Mr. Hobbs's attempts that makes me still seek out for protection from so greâ—…t and eminent a Patron who by his unaffected affability to all men and his studious encouragement of the best by his unwearied care for promoting true Religion as well as securing the just Authority of his Prince is alone able to live down many Leviathans And if there be any way to bring that haughty-conceited-Philosopher to a tolerable good nature and to tie him up to moderate prophaneness it must be done by such as your Grace defending and approving those that write against him for as 't is well known to your Grace that he 'l allow no man to speak truth but himself so will he scarce adâ—…it of any man to be truly great unless he is of his mind and opinions and that makes him so angry with your Grace because you are such an unanswerable Argument against all that he hath writ And nothing does so nearly concern him and almost convert him as to see the name of a person so conspicuous for Religion and Power stand before a Book that doth oppose his Doctrine And for this reason I have once more taken the boldness to make this second Address to your Grace If upon this review of Mr. Hobbs I had found that he had given his Readers sense and argument answerable to the mischiâ—…f and wickedness of his opinions I should then have endeavoured to have now appeared to your Grace in another Style and Dress For I am not so utterly given over to toying nor so conceited of this way of writing nor so indifferent about a good life and Religion nor so careless of offending sober men nor so bent and resolved always to presume upon your Grace after this kind but that I think it possible that upon a just account and a good subject for a need I could make two or three grave Periodâ—… as well as Mr. Hobbs has made thousands about those things which are eitheâ—… impudently false 〈◊〉 notoriously fâ—…ivolous But I must confess that of all Triflers 't is the set the grave the Philosophical and Mathematical Trifler to which I have the greatest averseness whom when I meet very gravely making out all men to be Rational beasts both in Nature and Conversation and every man when he pleases a Rational Rebel and upon any fright or pinch a Rational Atheist and Antichristian and all this performed with all demureness solemnity quotation of Scripture appeals to Conscience and Church-History I must humbly beg your Graces pardon if then I have endeavoured to smile a little and to get as much out of his road and waâ—… of writing as possible I might offer to your Graces consideration several things in Apologie for my self If what I have done be at all pardonable I am sure your Grace need not be reminded of what I might plead or pretend but if otherwise for me to argue the Case with your Grace would but heighten the presumption of My Lord Your Graces in all Duty and Service most devoted J. E. May 20. 1673. THE BOOKSELLER TO THE READER Dear Reader THE Author wanting wit confidence and friends to commend himself and this following Dialogue to the World at that â—…ast and prodigious rate after which Mr. Hobbs and such as he hired is sufficiently known to have extolled himself and all his Writings rather than such a man and such endeavours should utterly perish for want of a few good words I was resolved to say somewhat not only for my own gain but also for my own profit It is to be confessed that there has been already so very much said in Prefaces of the bottomless deserts and inestimable Writings of our Author's Adversary that it will be a very difficult Talk for me who am no ways concerned no ways corrupted nor prepared no Chaplain no Butler 〈◊〉 â—…d no Nephew no Râ—… no Friend nor Acquaintance of the Author ever to overtake those extravagant praises that Mr. Hobbs has shower'd down upon himself But however Reader I prethee do so much as hold my Hat and Gloves and thou shalt see what such an unprejudic'd and unconcern'd person can do for a poor modest shiftless friendless despairing dying Author There was thou know'â—…t a great Greek man who was thrice asked what was most necessary to make an Orator and 't is known well enough what his threefold answer was Even so shouldst thou ask me three thousand times over what is the most-best Book that ever was or will be printed buy this and thou hast fully answered thy self and my design The Book it is to be acknowledged is but a Book and that 's the least and worst thing that can be said of it But why do I call it a Book what am I mad for in reality 't is all Books for it does not only faithfully relate what has been already done but it foretells all that shall be done Dost thou want Reader a just true and impartial History of the whole World from the very beginning to the very minute that thou buyest this Book trouble not thy self here ' t is It begins ten thousand years before the oldest Praeadamite and holds good and firm ten thousand years after the World shall end Dost thou want a true â—…ound substantial Orthodox Body of Divinity hold it still fast for thou hast got it This very Book was at the first four General Councils and in all the Persecutions Hast thou a mind to a compleat body of the Law Civil Law Canon Law Common Law c The twelve Tables were stollen out of this Book last week when 't was printing I met with the Rogue at Pye Corner but he out-ran me and so were Lycurgus's Laws and Justinian's Institutes as for Littleton Cook c. 't is plain they had all hence and as London-Bridge stands upon several Wool-packs so Westminster-Hall it self and all its proceedings stand upon four of these Books Dost thou want Galen Hippocrates Paracelsus Helmont c want them still for in effect thou hast them all For here 's that which cures all diseases and teaches a
is either divine or humane As for divine Laws the irresistible power of God alone justifies all them Tim. Truly such a famous Broker for power as you are known to be may easily make that out For having in your Animadversions turn'd all the Attributes of God as you use to do all things else into power making divine goodness divine mercy and divine justice to be nothing but power you might securely say that divine power alone justifies all actions That is divine power alone together with all the rest especially divine justice justifies all actions And now I pray a little concerning humane Laws Phi. Concerning them I do say also that 't is impossible that any one of them should be unjust For a humane Law is that which every subject has given his consent to namely by giving up his will to the will of the supream and no man can be unjust to himself And therefore a Prince can't put upon his subjects any unjust Law Tim. Suppose he should put out a Law that all that are born blind shall have their fingers and toes cut off There 's abundance of power in this same Law but in my mind very little justice Phi. Why all the fingers and toes of the Nation are the supremes And you have given up your consent as well to his pleasure as his power Tim. Never in my life to such pleasure as this Phi. You have given your consent to all things that he should do be they what they will Tim. No but I han't For if he has a mind to go a finger hawking or so I desire to stay at home and keep the Hogs out of the Pease Because long before I had bargain'd with him I had preingaged my self to the Law of nature and reason to which he for all his greatness is as much a subject as â—… never to use or give my consent to such inhumane recreations But if I mistake not Philautus you and I had some little talk about these matters when we met last at the Isle of Pines And therefore be pleased to consider a little those same punishments that are inflicted upon men for what they could not avoid It seems a little severe Philautus to hang a man for stealing suppose when as he could not possibly help it and to damn him for not repenting when he could as little help that also Phi. As for damnation if you mean your eternal damnation I shall tell you a fine story about that by and by Tim. A fine one indeed Phi. But as for peoples being punish'd for what they could not avoid the case in short stands thus viz. When we say that such a one could not avoid the breaking of such a Law we mean no more by it but that he had a necessary will to break it Now this same necâ—…ssary will contains two parts Necessiâ—…y and Will be sure that you attend well for it clears all now therefore say I when any man is punish'd for willing or doing of that which he could not avoid he is not punish'd for the necessity or because he could not avoid it Tim. I hope not for if he were all the Dogs of the Town ought to be set upon the Executioner Phi. But he 's punish'd for doing it or willing it Tim. What 's that because he could avoid it Phi. No no but because he consented and had a mind to t. Tim. He consented he had a mind to 't he scorns your words Philaâ—…tus for he nor any man else according to you had ever of themselves a mind to any thing in this whole World But those same necessary second causes oft-times flock about me suppose and have a mind to me and when they take me only by the elbow and clownishly drag me to the Jail then am I said because Liberty the same time pulls homeward to go against my mind and against my consent but when they take me gentilely by the brain and spirits which have always the whole body at their beck and slily push me on to steal or the like then forsooth aâ—…â—… sâ—…id to coâ—…sent Whereas I can as litâ—… avoid â—…his consenting as going to 〈◊〉 â—…ail Only here 's all the differencâ—… thâ—…t â—…e considerations of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ecessarily affect the brain bâ—…ing â—…ot â—…uch visible and big things aâ—… the Constables with their staves therefore they say that I consented and 't was of my doing Phi. So 't was of your doing For in stealing don't you put forth your hand and take somewhat against Law Tim. That 's a good one indeed I walk suppose to the Window and there lies a Gold-watch and this gives me a deadly flap o're the face I being of a sanguine complexion and not us'd to pass by such affronts I give it as good as it sent and flap that o're the face again but at last it does so dazle me and puts me so out of all countenance that I can't endure it in my sight any longer and so according to the laws of motion it goes mechanically into my Pocket And then poor Pill-Garlick must go to Pot for having eyes hands and a pocket whereas I 'll be sworn I no more conspir'd nor consented 〈◊〉 this than a Mouse-trap does to the catching of a Mouse For though I look and leer as if I intended somewhat and as if I took aim but they are those same pernicious second causes that do all they charge and propound and tickle and pull down the little Cartesian tricker and then bounce go I off at the Watch. Phi. As apt an instance Tim as thou thinkest this to be for thy purpose thou couldst not have given one more for my advantage For killing of Mice and such like Vermin is good for the Common-wealth but as for stealing 't is a thing that does hurt 't is noxious Tim as I have at large taught in my Liberty and Necessity And therefore though every action of a mans life be equally unavoidable yet those only are punishable that are found to be noxious Tim. Only those Sir and therefore though a Knife cuts and slashes a stick or a piece of meat never so sorely yet the Knife is not blamed and chastis'd for this because 't is not noxious But if it chances to get never so little way into a Childs finger 't is then presently chidden and condemn'd and sometimes flung away with such displeasure that for a week after 't is ready to turn tail at sight of a Pint of Butter and you can scarce get it to come within a yard of a Pudding Phi. But this is only to cheat Children and make them leave crying Tim. And to hang a man that has been past crying fourty years is every whit as great a cheat for he could not avoid stealing any more than the Knife could avoid cutting Phi. I know that But the end of punishment is to fright and deterr and to frame and make the will to justice Tim. I believe that if I be once hang'd for
to him Tim. And you did very well so to do Sir for Naaman will do against the whole Bible and a line or two out of Tertullian nothing to the purpose against all the Fathers And seeing you are so firmly fixt in the Catholick Faith and are so condescending and dutiful to all lawful Princes certainly they ought to be very careful to check and rebuke the adversaries of such a dear and devout Subject And therefore let 's see if we can't find never another Complement for the Prince If I ben't mistaken Lev. p. 205. there is a pretty obliging one viz. that if the Civil Magistrate please he may take away the word of God for we have had it e'en long enough and instead thereof give us Gusman your Leviathan or whatever else he thinks most convenient for his Common-wealth For in the first place 't is plain say you that the Book which is now called the word of God is not really and grammatically the word of God i. e. 't is neither the Noun of God nor the Verb of God nor any other part of Speech of God But be it what it will it obliges no further than the Civil Magistrate pleaseth who by making it law made it first to oblige and by repealing that Law can make it not to oblige The Old Testament indeed was a Law but to the Jews only never to us The New Testament never was a Law to any body at all till 't was made so by Princes and Emperours For Christ was no Law-giver neither if he had made any Laws had he any Kingdom to practise in neither did he by his civil Authority command any thing but only advis'd and counsel'd c. and sent out the Apostles to do the like who were to fish and allure Lev. p. 270. not like Nimrods by coercition and punishing to hunt men into Christianity Phi. Most of this is true Tim but first of all I must chastise thee for thy great sawâ—…yness in comparing my Leviathan to such a Raskallionscoundrel-Book as Gusman and in the next place for supposing me to be ambitious of having the Bibles turn'd out of Churches and my Leviathan made Canonical Tim. As for Gusman Philautus I am not I must confess much skill'd in that Author and if I were it would take up a little too long time to debate the business throughly between you two but if that Book ben't ten times worse than any I ever saw yet I don't question but it will furnish out a much honester Gentleman a more faithful subject and a truer Christian than yours shall do And then as for your Leviathan being made Canon you know well enough Philautus 't was a thing you your self were not without some hopes of Phi. What Tim did I ever hope wish or desire that my Leviathan might be appointed by Act of Parliament to be publickly read in all Churches instead of the Bible Tim. You shall hear Sir Seeing say you Lev. p. 293. that neither Plato nor any other Philosopher hitherto hath put into order and sufficiently proved all the Theorems of moral doctrine that men may learn thereby how to govern and how to obey I recover some hopes say you that one time or other this writing of mine may fall into the hands of a Soveraign who will consider it himself for 't is short and I think clear without the help of any interessed or envious interpreter and by the exercise of entire Soveraignty in protecting the publick teaching of it convert this truth of speculation into the utility of practice 'T is worth any Soveraigns pains indeed to take a progress of a year or two to settle and protect in his Kingdom a Company of such speculations which if practis'd would for all your kindness to him certainly ruine him Phi. But here 's not a word Tim of my ever hoping that the Bible should give way to my Leviathan What made you say that I had any such expectation or ambition Tim. Don't you remember Philautus what a huffing challenge you once sent to a Doctor of Divinity how that you and your Leviathan should preach with him and his Bible and that without any such ceremonious foolery as ordination only the Soveraign should lend you one of his Life-guard to see you into the Pulpit and to bang those that would not believe you If say you as I take it 't is in your Stigmai the Soveraign power give me command though without the ceremony of imposition of hands to teach the doctrine of my Leviathan in the Pulpit why am not I if my doctrine and life be as good as yours a Minister as well as you Right why are you not for 't is plain that you have the word of command as well as the Doctor and a Minister has nothing more And as for Authority you are well enough with him for if he swaggers and produces the Bishops Orders then can you bid your Life-guard man swagger too and cock his Pistols and then as to the Book that is preach'd out of there 's no difference at all between you For you preaching out of your Leviathan preach out of a Bible as well as he For a Bible in Greek is only a Book and most certainly your Leviathan is a Book and a most rare one too But I pray Philautus how came it into your mind that the word of God does not oblige as much if not a little more than the word of a Prince I must confess indeed that in the beginning of the 36th Chapter of your Leviathan you have a very notable observation concerning the word of God as was just now hinted which I don't remember I ever met with in any Author but I don't see but that it may oblige for all that without the supream Magistrate's drawing his sword When there is mention say you of the word of God it doth not signifie a part of speech such as Grammarians call a Noun or a Verb or any simple voice without a contexture of other words to make it significative but a perfect speech or discourse whereby the speaker affirmeth denieth commandeth promiseth wisheth or interrogateth I profess Philautus would have been a thundering Preacher how he pours it out affirmeth denieth commandeth c. in which sense 't is not vocabulum that signifies a word I pray Gentlemen remember that and turn down a proof 't is not vocabulum but sermo in Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is some speech discourse or saying Without doubt if the Soveraign had sent out Philautus this same had been the beginning of his first holding forth 'T is a most admirable introduction to a body of Divinity But to proceed Philautus suppose the word of God as you have most painfully and learnedly made it out is neither Noun Pronoun Verb Participle nor any of the rest but only the speech or discourse of God I pray do so much as let me know I desire it once more some of your best reasons why this
same speech or discourse of God seeing you 'l so have it does not oblige us to believe it and practise it unless it be authoriz'd by Kettle-drums and Trumpets Phi. Best reasons what an impudent trick is this of Tim to call for my best reasons any surely are good enough for such a fellow as thou art in the first place if thou canst thou art to understand that whatever was laid down by Christ himself or his Apostles after him as it was laid down by him or them never did neither does it now at all oblige Tim. I am such a fool Philautus that methinks I had much rather mind and observe what our Saviour said than any thing that can be commanded by the General of an Army Phi. You may mind and observe what you will but take that from me you 'l have little thanks for your labour For it does not at all oblige Lev. p. 284 285. as propounded by him Tim. Why so Phi. Because 't is not Canonical Tim. Canonical did not Christ and they that followed him give Articles of Faith and rules of an holy life Phi. Yes but neither he nor any of his Successours did ever lay down one obligatory Canon For such a Canon is a Rule authoriz'd and injoin'd by the Common-wealth c. and that only is truly said to be Canonical which is allow'd of and made Canonical by the Soveraign that is to say which is made Law in any Kingdom for a Law is the commandment of that man or assembly to whom we have given Tim. Really Philautus if you don't leave that trick I 'll get a new man to talk withal Phi. What trick Tim. You can't come near the word Law but presently you spring forth for a Law is the commandment of that man or assembly c. and when 't is every whit to as little purpose as 't is here Phi. To as little purpose by the definition alone of a Law namely that a Law is the commandment of that man or Tim. What shall we have it again Phi. I say by that definition of a Law it is very evident that not any one Rule or precept in the whole New-Testament was an obligatory Canon i. e. did really oblige any man living till the New-Testament was made Law And I am sure it never was made Law till Tim. Till when till 't was made Law That 's all that Philautus will engage for for he 's a very wary Gamester and he 's as sure as can be that the Gospel was never publickly owned nor appointed by any Prince to be read in any Kingdom or Common-wealth till that very day hour and minute that it was so own'd and appointed c. Philautus I say is very sure of this and thus much he will certainly undertake for and no more Phi. 'T is false for I undertake further to shew that whatever our Saviour propounded to be done in order to Salvation till obedience thereunto was commanded by the Soveraign-Ruler was so far from obliging that every man without the least injustice might refuse to observe Tim. For injustice should you have said is a breach of the commandment of that man or assembly Phi. Should have said what Tim dost thou undertake to teach me what I should have said don 't I know when to break of and when to go on Tim. Indeed Sir I think that in all right the definition of injustice ought to have come in there for then the business had been plainly demonstrated Phi. 'T is plainly demonstrable Tim that any man might refuse to obey whatever our Saviour said till 't was made Law without being unjust at all Tim. Without being unjust to whom do you mean Philautus Phi. To whom can a man be unjust but to his lawful Soveraign and to those with whom he contracts according to the Laws of his Country Tim. Yes yes so I thought I knew as well as could be that the demonstration would be thereabouts Phi. What did you know Tim Tim. I know this Philautus that a man may neglect to obey the precepts of Christ and yet not be at all guilty of transporting of Leather or Wool Phi. How do you mean Tim Tim. I mean this Philautus suppose I being a subject of a Kingdom wherein there were no positive Laws against swearing or private Revenge but plain and severe ones against transportation of Leather and Wool had been present at our Saviour's Sermon and believed him and his doctrine but notwithstanding had still continued a great swearer and a most revengeful wretch thus far I durst venture to say and truly you may safely go along with me that swearing to define it strictly is not transportation of Leather neither is revenge transportation of Wool Phi. Nor are they a direct breach of any other particular Law of the Kingdom Tim. How can they possibly be what are you mad Philautus would you have those things to be a breach of the Laws of that Kingdom which we have supposed not to have taken notice of any such things never certainly did Catchpole Pettifogger Forger of Wills more intangle shuffle wrest scrape and patch c. to bring about their villanous designs than you have rack'd and tortur'd those two poor words of Law and Justice to make your self singular in Irreligion And as in your Morals you have thereby endeavour'd to debauch humane nature and to taint the very foundations of practical reason so here you use the same silly artifice to frustrate the intentions of Christs coming into the World and to void the obligation of those Precepts that he left behind him Phi. You much mistake me Tim if you think me to be against Christ or his Precepts for Faith in him and obedience to Laws is all that I count necessary to Salvatiâ—…n But thus much I say further that nothing which either our Saviour or his Apostles propounded was truly Law or did oblige for neither he nor they had any Kingdom And though there were many Kingdoms in the World over which Christ if he had pleas'd might have challeng'd to himself the Soveraign Power yet 't is plain that he utterly disown'd all such publick and Regal authority by saying my Kingdom is not of this World Now say I Lev. p. 286. they that have no Kingdom can make no Laws Tim. Well rhimed Philautus Kingdom and Law Phi. Why can any man Tim make a Law that is give out some rule to be observed in a Nation who has no Nation to give it to must not a man have Soveraign right to do it and strength and authority to make it take effect Tim. Truly Philautus I cannot forbear to say that if a private Country-Gentleman in a rainy day should contrive a set of Laws and send them by the packet Boats into Foreign Countries to look for a Nation and people to observe them but that some of his Laws may chance to come home again unobserved Phi. No question Tim but that they would and the reason is
as you help'd him out of the Ditch Phi. If I thought so Tim he should e'en have gone on for all Philautus till he came to the bottom What shall I be thus rewarded for my great pains and clemency shall he conspire to take away my life because I endanger'd mine own to save his this truly is very fine ingenuity and morality Tim. 'T is just such ingenuous morality as you teach your Disciples and would have them to practise To have received say you Lev. p. 481. from one to whom we think our selves equal greater benefits than there is hope to requite disposeth to counterfeit love meer couâ—…terfeit love he may come Philautus to your Bedside Morning and Evening and there ask you blessing and pretend to adore and worship you but all this is only to spy out some cunning place to lay a Barrel of Gunpowder and to blow you up for as you go on very morally such benefits do really produce secret hatred and puts a man into the estate of a desperate Debtor that in declining the sight of his Creditor tacitely wishes him there where he might never see him more That would be just your case Philautus for the ingenuous Neighbour whom you have so much oblig'd may as was said pretend to come to see you but at his heart he wishes ten thousand Devils would fetch you away so that he might never see you again for as you further go on benefits oblige and obligation is thraldom and unrequitable obligation perpetual thraldom which is to ones equal hateful Phi. What a wondring you make Tim at this sentence whereas I am confident I could prove the truth of it from Histories of all Ages Tim. I don 't at all question but that in all Ages you may find Rogues and Raskals somewhere or other and 't is plain that that 's the very method you took to make up your moral Philosophy And whereas other Writers upon that subject were so civil to humane nature and studious of the good of Mankind as to draw their observations from the most brave the most vertuous anâ—… most generous of Men and Princes Philautus as may have formerly been hinted that he might be siâ—…gular and sufficiently scandalize his own kind appeals to nothing else but to the very dregs and sink to the most vile and most unreasonable practiâ—…es for his Authority Obligation is thraldom and unrequitable obligation perpetual thraldom and hateful Phi. What han't you done wondring yet Tim Tim. No Sir and I say fuâ—…her he that thinks so and behaves himself accordingly thinks non-sense and behaves himself like a Beast Phi. How do you know Tim but that Kings may have done so Tim. And how can I help it if Kings won't live and act like men why Philautus for all your bountiful condescentions and mighty cringes to him that has the supream Authority I believe that such an one if he don't observe the laws of nature which are known well enough without his interpretation may as plainly and easily be proved a Tyrant in the Court of reason as an ordinary Subject that refuseth to obey his Laws may be proved a Rebel in Westminster-Hall But we are not at leasure Philautus for that dispute now Phi. If you be I am ready for you but if you ben't then let me tell you that it is thought by some that Sir William Stanley far'd ne'er the better for his overmuch-obligation that he laid upon King Henry the 7th in Bosworth-field Tim. If upon that very accompt he far'd the worse I say Phi. What do you say What Tim prate against Kings Tim. No Sir but I say that his present Majesty God bless him is a reasonable and great man as well as a great King who when highly oblig'd by a late subject could never be perswaded by your sort of puny and ill-natur'd Politicians to think it tedious or reproachful so to be Phi. That was because he was his superiour and able to requite him but the obligation which I observe to be hateful is unrequitable obligation such as is for the most part only amongst equals Tim. Come come Philautus for a need you can hate without standing upon the curiosity of equals for if the obligation be but unrequitable let it be where it will 't is hateful to you And upon this accompt I suppose it may be that seeing our blessed Saviour has laid by his Death an infinite and unrequitable obligation upon all Mankind therefore to revenge this kindness you renounce both him and his Gospel Phi. This is only railing Tim to which I have been so long accustom'd that I am pretty well season'd against it For still I keep to this that nothing can be a Law that is a Precept that obliges unless he that lays it down has both authority to do it and coercive secular-secular-power to make it good Tim. And would any man in the World but such a mad one as Philautus think that a Commission such as our Saviour had from the great God of Heaven and Earth should be of less authority than a ticket from Jack of Austria or any tiny-earthly Potentate or that those eternal rewards and punishments which our Saviour plainly promises and threatens should be less obliging than running the Gantelet or an hours setting in the stocks but I know very well what it is that Philautus drives at viz. if our Saviour had either determin'd the breadth of Stuffs or the weight of bread or had set a certain mulct or fine presently to be levy'd upon every iniquity then possibly he might have passed for a Lawgiver and his word might have been taken without a Canonical Certificate from two Justices of the Peace But to say that he that lives and dies in sin shall be eternally damn'd was only a figurative expression and a meer frolick which Christ began and spoke to his Apostles and Disciples to put about Phi. I am sure that the Gospel would find but very little entertainment were it not for the Sword of Justice Tim. Why what I pray does the Sword of Justice towards the making the Gospel oblige does the Magistrate thrust down the Gospel into his Subjects bellies with his Sword of Justice if he did 't would do them but very little good For 't is plain Philautus to any one that knows what belongs to Religion that this same Sword of Justice which is to make the Scriptures Canonical has so very little of any obliging vertue in it that he that does not count himself oblig'd to obey the Precepts of Christ only because Christ gave them i. e. without your Sword of Justice is as far from salvation as one that never heard of Christ at all Phi. I suppose you don't imagine Tim the command of a lawful Prince to blast the obligation of the Gospel Tim. No but I suppose he that obeys the Gospel only out of complaisance to his Prince will obey any other Book out of the same â—…omplaisance having no other God nor Religion
themselves vanish in a moment they being chiefly grounded as most errours are upon nothing else but want of understanding of the true signification of words It would be very tedious Tim to repeat many of their objections they are so intolerably silly and therefore I shall only give you a very short specimen of their folly In the first place they 'l tell you that if there be a necessity of all humane actions to what purpose do we praise and commend one action and blame and discommend another Ignorant Souls that should not understand that to praise or commend a thing is only to say a thing is good good I say for me or for some body else or for the State and Common-wealth And in like manner to blame and discommend a thing is no more than to say that 't is bad and inconvenient For instance what more common Tim than for people in cold weather to say there 's a very good fire an excellent good fire a special good fire a most stately Princely fire words big enough for the greatest exploits of the mightiest Hero and yet I suppose very few think that the fire burns out of choice and discretion and that it lies listning and gaping for commendations and burns accordingly On the contrary what is it we mean when we express our dislike and disgust Be true now and tell me Tim is there any thing more frequent than to say that such an Horse is blind or founder'd that he starts halts or stumbles that he 's a very Jade a rotten molten confounded Jade words that do most passionately express blame and displeasure and yet again we don't suppose that the Horse ever requested the Blacksmith to drive a nail up to the hilts into his foot or desir'd the Groom to thrust out one of his Eyes with the Pitch-fork or to ride him so hard as to melt or founder him and therefore in the fourty first page of my Animadversions I tell thee hadst thou the wit to observe it that whereas people make such a great bustle about their sins and are oft-times vex'd and can't sleep in their beds for their sins sin is nothing else but halting or stumbling in the ways of Gods Commandments Tim. And do you think that this is all that is meant by peoples breaking Gods Commandments that one is stab'd with the Pitchfork of stupidity and ignorance and another prick'd and lam'd by the Blacksmith of sensuality and drunkenness so that there must needs be great halting and stumbling among them Phi. What Tim do you make sport and a mock of such a serious thing as sin Tim. 'T is you and such as you Philautus whose very opinions make a mock of sin that are the sport-makers not those who out of a sincere design to undeceive the World are forc'd sometimes to condescend to very mean and almost unpardonable expressions Phi. I don't cheat or deceive any body for 't is plain from common Custom and the consent of the best Authors that praise and dispraise do equally belong to those things that are never so far from all pretences of Freewill as well as to men Tim. But then Philautus I would have people a little careful how and upon what they bestow their commendations and reproofs For though sometimes indeed they turn to very good accompt yet at other times they have their inconveniencies He therefore that overnight commended a diamond at such a rate that by Morning it was grown from a Cherry-stone to a Pippin besides a little young diamond it had foled running by its side must be granted to have spent his breath and praises with very good discretion and profit Neither was the famous Miller of little Hingham much out of the way who when the wind did not blow to his mind would so frown and chide and rattle over his Mill that one would wonder to see how pouring the meal came down upon the reproof But for all that I shall always pity poor Sir Frederick Phi. For what I prethee Tim. Why Sir he having in Christmass time as most Gentlemen use to have one of those same stately and Princely fires before-mention'd the neighbours that sat about it fell into such lavish praises and extravagant admiration of the fire that it grew so conceited as to burn down the House Therefore if it must be so that to praise or dispraise a thing is only to say that 't is good or bad yet however let people hence learn that good words as well as bad are to be used with discretion But truly Philautus to deal plainly with you as plausible as the conceipt seems to be for my part I much suspect whether it be true For though we may praise a stone tree or Horse a mans foot or forehead with the very same words and phrases and in as good a stile as the best of humane actions yet I can't but think that those commendations which are usually bestow'd upon that accompt which we call desert to be not only much larger but quite of another kind from those which we give upon all other occasions whatever And though I don 't at all doubt but that such an one as Pliny could have done very much upon the considerable legs and renowned cod-piece of Henry the Eighth yet I am confident he would have done much better upon the peaceable and pious reign of Q. Elizabeth But to make an end of this Philautus we do often indeed commend the sun for shining and the Heavens for affording rain and the like but at our end of the Town what you do I know not we think hereby we praise God himself who not out of his necessary but free pleasure at first created and still disposes of all these things and has made man like himself So that still nothing is prais'd meerly because 't is good or beneficial but because it was contriv'd and brought about by that which need not have done it Phi. But don't you hear people very ordinarily blame and find fault with bad winds and bad weather as well as commend good and complain of many things that could not be help'd Tim. Yes and I don't much wonder at it for such Fools as those shall curse and bid the Devil take them ten thousand times over for such things as they could have help'd and that 's their gentile way of repentance And therefore let us have no more concerning praise and dispraise but let us see if they have any thing else to say against you Phi. They have nothing at all to say but they think they have got somewhat by the end when they tell you that if there be a necessity of all humane actions then many laws would be unjust because the breach of them could not be avoided Tim. This sounds Philautus as if it had somewhat in 't Phi. That it does and that 's all For whereas they talk of an unjust law they had as good talk of a piece of iron burning cold For every Law