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land_n	little_a	sea_n	see_v	1,312	5	3.4874	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14461	The Christian disputations, by Master Peter Viret. Deuided into three partes, dialogue wise: set out with such grace, that it cannot be, but that a man shall take greate pleasure in the reading thereoff. Translated out of French into English, by Iohn Brooke of Ashe; Disputations chrestiennes. English	Viret, Pierre, 1511-1571.; Calvin, Jean, 1509-1564.; Brooke, John, d. 1582.	1579 (1579)	STC 24776; ESTC S119193	490,810	627

occasion of offence they doe finde it in Iesus Christ Wherefore wée must not much care or take thought for it For they doe take the offence wythout any man gyuing it them and are an offence vnto themselues and cannot heare the truth wythout béeing offended Wherefore wée must holde vnto that which Iesus Christ sayde vnto them Let them alone for they are the blinde leaders of the blinde They must vnderstande that an euill knotte and harde péece of woode to cleaue hath néede of an harde wedge and a stronge mall to cleaue it If they are so shamelesse that they haue no shame at all and haue their heart so obstinate and hardened that they haue no remorse of censcience in mockinge of GOD and blaspheminge hym so horriblye as they doe daylye and doe teste so at men to their greate losse and hurte shall wée bée more ashamed to tell them their iniquitie to rebuke their abuses and abhominations which they dooe If they woulde not that one shoulde speake of them let them leaue off and cease to doe them For I beléeue that there is not a man of a good hearte which taketh any great pleasure to remoue that filthinesse except they bée constrained to doe it through their importunitie impudencie and shamelesse face For what good Christian heart can suffer that dayly men shoulde hyde those abhominations and that one shoulde couer suche villanyes makinge vs to beléeue that their filthmesse and stincke is as sweete as balme their poyson to bée the bread of lyfe lyinge to bée the truth Hell to bée Paradise cursinge to bée blessinge darkenesse to bée light and death lyfe As for me I cannot colour flatter nor hyde the thinges and I cannot but name them by their names For such is the language and style of the spyrite of God which will not speake after mens fantasies and for to please them as the Oratou●s which can giue vnto vices the names of vertues and such colour as it pleaseth them but to speake truth as the thinge is calling Idolatrie that which the Hipocrites and Idolaters doe call diuine seruice and their Idolles Diuells the which they call Gods. Wherefore althoughe such Hipocrites haue their forheades of stone and Iron so harde and immutable that one cannot make them blushe but doe kéepe their countenaunces as théeues and murtherers and shamelesse as harlots yet let them vnderstand on the other side that GOD hath giuen to his seruaunts as he said vnto Ezechiel aforehead of Brasse and of a Diamond which is yet more harder and which doth lesse shame to speake the truth and to giue praises vnto God then they to mainteine lyings to blame it And therfore the Lord commaunded Ezechiel saying goe speake vnto them and say vnto them that which I haue commaunded thée I know neuerthelesse that they will do nothing but I will y thou do tell them I know not what excuse such men can haue For they haue bene already taught al manner of wayes If they do complaine that one hath learned taught them to sharply and with to great seueritie and rigor I would learne and teach thē a little more ioyfully and more iestingly then bitterly If they doe yet finde my manner of dooing too sharpe there are as many others which haue written as modestly as is possible yet they finde no goodnesse in it and leaue not off to perseuer alwayes worse and worse in their errours and heresies Wherefore I knowe not what song one may sing vnto them but to rebuke them of that which Iesus Christ rebuked the Iewishe people and that which the little children whiche played in the stréetes rebuked their companions off when wée dyd singe vnto you sorrowfull thinges you haue not wepte when wée dyd singe vnto you ioyfull thinges you haue not daunsed Iohn Baptist came in great seueritie ●austeritie haue found him very sharp they say he hath the Diuell within him Iesus Christ came with all humilitie and gentlenesse and they said that he was a drunkard and a glutton and a friend vnto publicans and sinners If one do speake vnto them sharply as their iniquitie requireth they say that one is furious and mad If one do speake vnto them pleasantly they will call him foole or scoffer To couclude they will alwaies finde some thing to say as wée sée it by experience in our time Many men at the beginning haue taken vppon them to touch a little some abuses yet of the most grosest most apparant These Hipocrites could not beare them but they haue persecuted them by sea and land They cannot onely suffer that one should touch a little with his finger their Idolatry superstitiō that one should open his mouth for to speak one word for to reforme their estate but which is more haue declared themselues to be enemies vnto all learned wise men which haue trauailed to abolish all barberousnesse and sophistrie for to set vp againe all good letters and other disciplines haue accompted and condemned them for heritickes and haue put them in great daunger of their liues Sith then that they cannot suffer those héere that they should goe so pleasantly not onely of little dialogues familiar talke for little children which doo vnto them yet more greater honour then they deserue and do flatter them more then is néed God hath raised vp others who haue in such sort remoued their filthines the which others haue not done but a little tickled vp that they haue in such sort made the filthinesse and stinke so to auoide that all the world doth perceiue and foole it in such sort that one can no longer abide and suffer it When these sharpe surgeons are come which haue thrust their instrument so deepe within the Apostume that they haue perced them euen vnto the heart and bones they haue begun to reiect y first which did but a little touch the wounds and sores without and through their gentlenesse make them to fester and waxe worse and worse makinge of it but a certeine pallatiue cure or healing When they haue experimented and tried the second they haue cried out Alarome against them and haue bene constrained to prayse the first whome they condempned in comparison of those héere Afterwards came consequently others who haue a little better vncouered their disceite and which haue better manifested the villany and the fornications of the great whoore of Babilon insomuch that those whome men accompted to bée so earnest and such heretickes haue begun by them to bée estéemed gentle and good men in comparison of the latter And so they haue had of all sortes and yet they will vnderstand nothing Wherefore mée thincks they can no more pretende ignoraunce nor infirmitie or any iust excuse but that it is tyme to aunswere to a foole according to his foolishnesse to the ende hée thincke not alwaies to bée wise Wée must then let them to vnderstand that men doe accompte

I haue not found any so skilfull and of such habilitie who can bound and lymitte so perfectly the landes as our preacher to day hath lymitted and bounded out hell Limbus patrum and Purgatory As far as I can perceiue he knoweth in what clymate they are how many degrées miles and places the one is from the other of what side they are all scituated and placed whether they bée on the Cast West North or South Hillarius You take not the matter am●●se But you must not be abashed if he and such as he is doe take so great paynes to bound and lymitte so perfectly those places and chiefely Purgatorie For they haue no better possession then this which yéeldeth vnto them more profite and gaine nor of which they receiue and gather vp more rents and reuenues There is no realme Lordship lande nor heritage which bringeth more profite to their Lords owners then Purgatory doth bring vnto them Wherefore it is no maruayle if they doe feare so much to loose it and that their bounds and lymits shoulde be transported or changed any other where Ptolomus and many other wise and excellent Geographers are estéemed to be very well learned aswell among the Greekes as the Latines But I thinke that among all those there is not one which in his Geography hath at any time so wel painted and described the earth with all the parts thereoff countryes and regions as this our Doctor hath described and drawen out before our eyes these low parts and inseruall regions Thomas By that we may know or at the least presume that he speaketh not onely by heare say but that he hath bene there in proper person or ●ls hath had some expert teacher in that Geography For I doe sée that the best Geographers and the most cumming Cosmographers doe faile oftentimes in the description of the earth and of many countryes and regions which are most familier to vs and of which they may haue greatest and most certeyne experience Hillarius Without séeking any further we may try it in the French Cardes or Maps There is not almost a country better knowne then Fraunce neuerthelesse we sée oftentimes great errours in those Cardes in the which it is described Wherefore wée may well thincke that it maye so chaunce in other tables mappes and cardes conteminge the description of heauen and earth and of the regions and countryes vnknowne Thomas I doubt not at all but that this Monke hath the spirite for to compose and make a table and Mappe of these low countryes better then the paynters haue paynted them out in the temples or the Printers in the Shepheards Calēders And therfore I desire very much to speke with him For I haue taken in hande a iourney in the which he may helpe mée For I hope that eyther he will shewe mee some good way or els satisfie mée in such sorte that peraduenture I shall saue the iourney and charges Hillarius What voyage is that which you haue taken vppon you will you goe into Sicily Thomas What to doe in Sicily Hillarius To descend into hell For I cannot vnderstand any other thing by your talke forasmuch as you enquire after that Monke to accomplish and ende your voyage I thinke you will haue him for your guyde to conduct you in that daungerous voyage euen as Circe ●uyded Vlysses to bring him to the speach of Elpenor and Sybilla Aeneas to conduct and bring him vnto the speache of his father Anchises Thomas I thinke you are eyther a Prophet or a Diuine you haue hitte the na●●e on the hea●e you haue not erred a whit from the matter ●ut to what purpose speake you vnto mée of Sicily Is there any hauen or any entrye place or denne to descende into those infernall and obscure horrible and most darkesome countryes Hillarius What meane you to make all this circumstāce questionings you make it so strange as though you had neuer heard it spoken off before Ther is nothing more common in the Poeticall Theologie Thomas You alleage vnto mee a goodly diuinitie I haue nothing to doe with the Poets nor with their fables and faynings Is it not well knowne that they be inuented of pleasure and there is no truth in them but that they are most euident lyes Hillarius If you so lyttle esteeme the testimonye of the Poets I thinke you will not despise altogether the vulgar common opinion which hath continued and endured so long time and moreouer doth confirme it Thomas You bring mée into a faire land and alleage vnto mée a testimony worthy of credite for confirmation of the other to set mée ouer vnto the common people there is nothing more vnconstant more foolish more mutable nor more ready to beléeue all lyes fables and follyes Hillarius I thinke y yet at the least wise you wil not reiect the testimony of that holy man Odillo Abbot of the Monks of Cluny and of many orher Monkes very deuout which haue followed him Thomas It may be that when I shall heare his opinion eyther I will allow it or disallow it What sayth hée Hillarius Peter of Amiens hath written that in the time of Pope Iohn the viij About a thousande yeares after the death and passion of Iesus Christ Odillo was in Sicily and bicause that he heard oftentimes the noyse cryes and bewaylings which were made continually about that burning hill Aetna called of the Italians at this day Gibello monte did thinke it came from the Diuells lamenting that the soules of the faythfull deceased were deliuered from torments through the masses vigiles prayers sacrifices and offrings of the Christians And therfore he incontinent declared the same to his Monkes and they all decréed together that after they had offered their offerings the first day of Nouember and celebrated the feaste of Saints in the honour of all Saints they would in lyke manner the next day beeing holyday make prayers and ●risons for the soules of all the faythfull deceased Afterwarde in succession of time others receiued and allowed that manner of doing as good and holy Thomas What reason had they to imagine that those cryes mourninges came of the lamentations that the Diuels made Hillarius I cannot vnderstand that it hath had any other reason or foundation then the Poets and the common people to thincke that there was a place there to descende into hell and the place in which the soules of the wicked were tormented for their sinnes bicause that in that same mountaine there is a perpetuall fire which alwaies burneth and hath done so of long time Wherefore they haue thought that y damned were kept in those great burning goulfes By this same reason was Odillo and his Monkes moued and were the Authours that the Christians gaue themselues to celebrate feastes and make sacrifiees for the dead in the month of Nouember euen as the heathen Romaines did commonly vse

deade which were truely Christians And hath commaunded that the Priestes ought to make commemoration of them Dne may very well presume by that aduertisement and commaundement that which Gregory made vnto Boniface touching this matter that it is not long agoe that the Masse hath begonne to bee a sacrifice for the dead and that the institution is not so auncient as some men do thinke it to bee at the least-wise that Iesus Christ and his Apostles haue not bene the author thereoff For Boniface would not haue kept it secret in that time Wherefore I giue more credite vnto those whiche haue written that Pope Pelagius hath bene the author inuentor and promoter of those suffrages and prayers the which we sée dayly yet in vse amonge the Christians and we call them the good déedes for the dead then to any of those which haue followed the Apostles Eusebius If you had reade ouer and ruminated the auncient doctors of the Churche you shall not finde that doctrine so newe but you woulde speake otherwise and should know that the Churche hath followed it of long time before that Pelagius or Sainct Gregory were borne Wherefore then did Sainct Ambrose make mention writing of the death of the Emperour Theodosius of the first seuenth thirty and fourty day that the Churche did celebrate making remembraunce of the dead and for what cause they did the same of whome the wordes are written in the decrées after this manner Bicause that some haue vsed to obserue the thirde caye other some the seuenth and others the thirty in the office of the dead Let vs consider what thing that lesson in the scripture teacheth vs It saith After that Iacob was dead Ioseph commaunded his seruants that they should bury him And the children of Israel buried him and the forty dayes beeing accomplished for so were the daies of the burial compted they lamented seuen dayes We ought to follow that solemnitie the wh●che the holy scripture describeth vnto vs It is also written after this manner in Deuteronomium that the children of Israel lamented Moses and did wepe thirty dayes and then the mourning was ended heth those two obseruations haue then authoritie by the which the necessary office of piety and humanity is accomplished Doe you not sée here plainely by the words of Sainct Ambrose that already in his time the Churche did the office and commemoration of the dead and did celebrate in their memory certaine dayes and yet the auncients haue not instituted them after the inutation and example of the Panyms and Idolaters as you say and affirme but after that imitation of the auncient Patriarkes and Prophets and of the people of God Theophilus I am abashed I knowe not whether I shall speake it of the ignorance mallice of your doctors For if they vnderstande that Saincte Ambrose hathe allowed that which they at this day do vphold and maintaine they do greatly erre and shewe themselues to be verye ignoraunt Also if they vnderstand his intention and meaning they are very malicious and wicked to peruerte and marre the sence of the same for to maintaine their abuses and alwayes the more to kéepe the poore people in errour Firste they well perceiue and sée that Sainct Ambrose maketh no mention neither of Purgatory nor of Masse for the dead and that that place cannot serue but for the sorrow that men take for the dead For yet in that time the Churche approched néerer vnto the puritie of the primatiue Churche and was not so muche corrupted as she hath bene afterwards sithence the time of Pope Pelagius and of Gregory the greate This then that he maketh mention of the first seuenth thirty and forty daye in his booke and sermon that hée made of the death and buriall of Theodosius is not set forth by him for to nourishe and holde the pepole in the supersticions of the Panyms as you doe but rather to draw them backe from it and for to induce and leave the Christians vnto more greater honesty and modestye to the sorrowe that they ought to haue for the dead For that cause did he propound and set foorth the example of the Israelites not that he woulde thereby make a law vnto the Christian people that they shoulde mourne seuen thyrty nor forty dayes bicause that the Israelites haue mourned so many dayes for lacob Moses Aaron and Marie their sister yet lesse for to cause Masses to be said and to banket and make the priests broken as they do dayly at the Portuaries and Anniuersaries For then he should teache the Christian people to playe the Iewes and sinne against the Christian liberty if hee woulde of all the examples of the Scripture and of the thinges done by the Israelites draw out take lawes and statutes for to commaunde them vnto the Christian people as necessarie and ordeyned of god For first of all God neuer hath defined nor determined by his lawe certaine dayes nor yet to lament and mourne for the dead nor for to make any commemoration of them as it appeareth very well by the examples asore alledged For the Israelites themselues haue not kept a certaine number of dayes at the mourninge of Iacob Moses Aaron and of Marie For they did kéepe Iacob in Aegypt fortie dayes after that hee was enbaumed and the Aegyptians bewept him Ixx dayes He was carried into Hebron afterwards his sonnes bewept him seuen dayes in Atad But Moses Aaron and Marie their sister were beewept euerye one of them thirty dayes Thou doest see alreadie here that they are not very superstitious in the dayes and that some time they haue vsed eyther more or lesse It should séeme that their ordiuary was but for seuen dayes For it is written Seuen dayes do men mourne for him that is dead but the lamentation ouer the vnwise shoulde endure all the dayes of their life But when it is for some noble personne as for a Prince or a Prophet or anye man of great estimation and renome they woulde of custome prolonge theyr mournynges vntyll thyrtie dayes But they woulde not wyliyngly passe béeyond it as wée sée here in these three examples of Moses Aaron and Marie who were bewept and lamented of the people of Israel asmuche and more then anye other euer were The mourning of Iacob was a little more lōger bycause he was carried to be buryed a great way and that they carried him from the land of Aegypt into the land of Canaan not that they esteemed the land of Canaan more holy then that of Aegypt as touching his nature or that it had any more vertue for the health of the body or soule of him that was buryed there as the superstitious Christians and poore ignorant do iudge of the earth in the churchyarde bicause that it was blessed and halowed by their Bishops and Priests But they did that for to witnes in the article of the

papistical Theologians would héere vse their accustomed licence which is to peruert marre all tongues and languages giuing vnto them an other sence a signification to make a new one as the Iargon of the beggers Ostirians which none vnderstandeth but themselues Theophilus It must néedes be so or els that they dooe take the word of Limbe by a Metaphore comparison and stmilitude for extermitie as farre as I can iudge as well I by thy words before alledged and allowed as by those of you Theologians For in disputing of those internal habitatiōs they confesse by their bookes that it is vncertein which is néerest vnto hell either the Limbe or Purgatory As touching the Limbe of the fathers they affirme assuredly that in the time when it was it was situated in a place more higher And as touching that of the children they say that after the latter iudgement it shall bée in the earth a little aboue the same and hell shal be in the bottom and Purgatory shall be then all one with hell Hillarius I would gladly knows what meatinges and measurings they vse in those lowe territories whether they doe measure the landes countryes by cubites elles rodes miles and other lyke measures such as the Geometrians and Astronomers haue At the leastwise they are more skilfull in such Arte then euer they were For they doe measure the regions and countries which yet are not But for a ful resolution we can conclude none other thing by their Geomitry and discription but that purgatory and the Limbe are the confins or the suburbes either of hel or of Paradise Theophilus If the Limbe of the fathers were one of the suburbes of hell it must bée that the citie should be a great way off from the suburbes For Abraham cléerely witnesseth that there is such a distaunce from his bosome the which thou taketh for the Limbe vnto hell in which the rich man was that it is impossible to passe from the one to the other bicause of the horrible goulfe and depth which is betwéene them both Hillarius Peraduenture wée may deceiue our selues For how doest thou know whether they do pronounce Limbe for Lembe For Lembe in Greeke and Latine signifieth a little ship and very swift or a gally Wherefore it may be that they do meane that the auncient fathers were detained kept in that Lembe as in a ship as Noe was in his Arke to the end they should not fall into that déepe lake of Hell and be drowned in the goulfe of those deepe riuers of which we haue spoken off so much For all their ease goeth by poetical faynings But howsoeuer they will take it I dare proue it by the olde men of our countrey that it is most lykest to be true that the Limbe at the least the same of the poung children ought rather to be in the suburbes of Paradise then of hell For they doe bolde for certeyne that the younge children which for wanting of exterior and outward baptisme are sent vnto the Limbe hearing from thence where they are the ioyes of Paradise but they cannot sée them the which is vnto them a meruaylous torment Neuerthelesse the good olde men woulde not haue spoken so assuredly if they had not heard it so preached of the great Theologians and Doctors Nowe sithence that from the Limbe the young children do heare the ioyes of Paradise reasō declareth vnto vs that the Limbe ought not to be farre off from paradise but that it may haue only some wal or a certein vayle betwéene them both which may hinder and let their sight either that they do make a great noyse in paradise or else that the eares of the soules are merueylously sharpe and attentius Eusebius Sith that the Doctors doe say that it is situated builded in a place more higher I doubt not but that it approcheth nigh vnto Paradise Hillarius In stéede then y Virgile placeth the Limbe of the young children at the entering in to hel thou wilt make it at the entering in of Paradise Theophilus Sith that wée doe alreadye esloyne and make our selues so farre from Hell I doe greatly feare that in the ende thy Limbe and thy Purgatorye will not be sounds in Paradise And therefore I demaund of thée againe to knows whether that the bosome of Abraham be a place of voluptuousnes and pleasure or of sorrowfulnes horror And whether y the yoūg children of y Hebrews Iewes which died before y viii day which was deternined appointed for to circumcise thē did go into y bosome of Abraham w the patriarches either into Purgatory or into hell or whether they had an other Limbe a varie Eusebius Thou doest propound vnto mée many questions together to the which I cannot answere according to the order which thou hast kept in propounding them For I will beginne with the latter afterwardes I wyll descend vnto the others As touchinge that which thou demaundest of the saluation of the young Infantes of the Hebrewes I doe aunswere as the Master of the sententes euen so as of the children of the Christians which dyed before baptisme Theophilus Thou wilt then say that they doe perish both the one and the other For the master of the sentences vseth this proper worde saying that it is most true that they perish If they doe perish they are then dampned the which I am sure thou wilt not confesse For you doe put a difference betwéene the dampned and them Yet neuerthelesse you holde them not for the children of god And therefore you denye vnto them to bée buryed in the Churchyard And therefore that opinion of the master of the sentences hath séemed to the other scholastical Doctors too rigorous which do witnesse that they holde it not commonly in that place but they take it for an error the which they haue adioyned with the others which they haue heaped vp together from their bookes Eusebius If he did vnderstand and meane that they went into Hell I wyll not followe his sentencs But I beléeue that he meaneth that they go no other where but to the Limbe Theophilus But was that Limbe whether they went the very same in which the Patriarches were shut in or whether they had a chamber seperated from their lodging Eusebius I beléeue that the young children haue their Limbe seperated from the others or otherwise they should haue had no more paine then the others which haue bene circumcised sith that they cannot yet enter into Paradise but are all stayed in the Limbe Thomas I thinke that you do not kepe the promise which you haue made neither on the one side nor on the other that you abide not within the circuit field the which you haue determined for your Ioustes For you are bounde to flight by the onelye authoritie of the worde of god And yet neuerthelesse it is alredy a good while that I haue heard any thing of