way it is too common for men to broach their owne pleasures for their Religion is made of mens inventions Thus much for your 10th Reason YEt furthermore for addition to these ten Reasons you adde a Question * your Qeustion is what these men would have in this Toleration Whether the number of five or sixe Congregations onely and no more Or whether the number shall be left undetermined and be free to multiply c. For answer to this I doe affirme that the number ought not to be limitted for the Churches of the New Testament were free to multiply not onely in greatnesse but also in number I say they were left free by God for the Apostles were not limitted from constituting Churches wheresoever men were brought to beleeve in Christ But say you it is their principles to breake one Church in two or three I answer I know no man that holdeth any such principle But say you it hath beene so at Amsterdam Roterdam and London To this I answer I deny not but that there may be offences taken and sometimes given which may cause men to depart one from another as Paul and Barnabas did sometimes about persons and sometimes about things and wofull experience teacheth all men that brethren are apt to fall out by the way and that Ioseph knew very well when he admonished his brethren to the contrary * But though some should be offended and could not be reconciled as the Scripture saith a brother offended is harder to be wonne than a strong citie * yet the departing of such a brother or brethâ—en cannot make that Church two Churches yet notwithstanding this may sometimes tend to the further spreading of the Gospell even as the departing of Paul and Barnabas did Not that I justifie the practise of any that are not apt to beare but that God doth sometimes bring good out of evill as it was in the selling of Ioseph * by turning it to his owne glory and the good and comfort of his people Therefore you neede not to marvell which shall be the state approved by the Magistrate because that properly there remaineth but one intire state in such cases of division as you have before mentioned By all this it appeares that it is none of our principles to breake one Church into two or three But you say if the number be left undetermined there may be many Churches in a Towne For answer whereof I must tell you that I reade in the Scriptures of no more Churches in a towne but one as in Ierusalem where there were many Converts yet I reade but of one Church Now this was in the first plantation of the Gospell but what they might increase to afterward the Scripture is silent in for any thing I know But that there may be two or three in one place as you say that seemeth unto me to be confusion except they should meete in one place for consultation which may very well be for God is the God of Order and not of confusion And I never reade in the Scripture that two Churches met together in one place for the practise of publike worship But say you we may have every where three or foure men of an opinion differing from others to goe to make a Church To this I answer If you meane by every where in every Towne of the Land I say although it should be so and though there be sixe townes in a Parish yet it will be no no confusion for the fewer they are together the lesse ground will there be of fearing them But touching divisions and subdivisions If any such thing happen it is but that which we have bin told on before The Apostles words are these They went out from us because they were not of us c. * and if evill minded men that crept in departed from Christ * we neede not to thinke much that such creepers in should depard from us also yet the disorderly going away of any as I have said before doth not make them a Church which goe away disorderly And thus I have given you an answer to your second tenth Reason * for in your Booke you have by your stile made it a Reason though you seemed at the first entrance into it to make it but a question But before you conclude the whole you subjoyne to these the Answer to five or sixe things which you would make to be their reasons and you say that they are continually alleadged by them for their toleration in this Kingdome THe first Reason you say they bring is that toleration is no more then the French and Dutch enjoy who live among us Indeede that is a very good reason for methinkes it stands with equitie that Natives borne should have as much priviledge as Strangers But you would seeme to alter the state of the case in sixe respects First That the French and Dutch Protestants have nothing nor desire nothing as contra distinct to the Protestants of France and Holland I answer if the Protestants of France and Holland have liberty of their conscience and be not at all burdened with Iewish Popish or Heathenish Observations but may be free there to worship God according to his Will revealed in his Word then they that are here amongst us neede not to seeke more liberty and I am sure the Independant men will aske no more Secondly you say that this liberty was granted by our Pioâ—s Princes in the times of persecution to the Protestants Here you crosse your first respect for if these Protestants were persecuted in France then it is certaine their Religion was different from the state of their owne Nation for you say they could not enjoy their Religion at home Furthermore you adde that it hath beene kept ever since for a refuge to the persecuted Protestants To which I answer The very like may be said of the libertie granted to the English Church in Amsterdame which hath beene a refuge for the Protestants which have beene persecuted out of England ever since But you say we may enjoy our Religion in this Land and that by the authority of the King and Parliament If it be so I pray you what is the meaning of the bleating of such cattell as your selfe which cry out dayly to the King and Parliament for the suppression of the Lords people and for the hindring of their meetings Thirdly you say The French and Dutch Churches will willingly be joyned in Government and in one way of discipline with the Kingdome if there be a Reformation Indeede if you had not added a great If here you had told a loud untruth but if this were performed that there were a Reformation according to Gods Will I doubt not but the Independant men would doe the like Fourthly you say these Churches doe not hold our principles but doe admit of appeales in great businesses I answer I have told you already and I now tell you againe that I admit of
THE IVSTIFICATION OF THE Independant CHVRCHES of CHRIST Being an Answer to Mr. EDVVARDS his BOOKE which hee hath written against the Government of CHRISTS CHVRCH and Toleration of CHRISTS Publike Worship BRIEFELY DECLARING That the Congregations of the Saints ought not to have Dependancie in Government upon any other or direction in worship from any other than CHRIST their HEAD and LAVV-GIVER By KATHERINE CHIDLEY 1 SAM. 17. 45. Thou commest unto me with a Sword and with a Speare and with a Sheild but I come unto thee in the name of the Lord of Hoasts the God of the armies of Israel whom thou hast defied IVDGES 4. 21. Then Iael Hebers wife tooke a naile of the tent and tooke an hammer in her hand and went softly unto him and smote the naile into his temples and fastened it into the ground for he was fast asleepe and weary and so he died LONDON Printed for WILLIAM LARNAR and are to be sold at his Shop at the Signe of the Golden Anchor neere Pauls-Chaine 1641. TO The CHRISTIAN READER Grace Mercy and Peace from God the Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ IT is and hath beene for a long time a Question more enquired into than well weighed Whether it be lawfull for such who are informed of the evills of the Church of England to Separate from it For my owne part considering that the Church of England is governed by the Canon Lawes the Discipline of Antichrist and altogether wanteth the Discipline of Christ and that the most of them are ignorant what it is and also doe professe to worship God by a stinted Service-Booke I hold it not onely lawfull but also the duty of all those who are informed of such evills to separate themselves from them and such as doe adhere unto them and also to joyne together in the outward profession and practise of Gods true worship when God hath declared unto them what it is and being thus informed in their minds of the knowledge of the will of God by the teaching of his Sonne Jesus Christ it is their duty to put it in practise not onely in a Land where they have Toleration but also where they are forbidden to preach or teach in the name or by the power of the Lord Jesus But Mr. Edwards with whom I have here to deale conceiving that the beauty of Christs true worship would quickly discover the Foggy darkenesse of the Antichristian devised worship and also that the glory of Christs true Discipline grounded and founded in his Word would soone discover the blacknesse and darkenesse of the Antihristian Government which the poore people of England are in bondage unto hath set his wits a work to withstand the bright comming of Christs Kingdome into the hearts of men which we are all commanded in the most absolute rule of Prayer to petition for for the turning aside whereof Mr. Edwards hath mustred up his forces even eight Reasons against the government of Christ which hee calls Independant and hath joyned unto these eight ten more which he hath made against Toleration affirming that they may not practise contrary to the course of the Nation wherein they live without the leave of the Magistrate neither judgeth he it commendable in them to aske the Magistrates leave nor commendable in the Magistrate to heare their petitions but rather seeketh to stirre up all men to disturbe their peace affirming most unjustly that they disturbe the peace of the Kingdome nay the peace of three Kingdomes which all the lands under the Kings Dominions know to be contrary nay I thinke most of the Kingdomes in Europe cannot be ignorant what the cause of the disturbance was But this is not the practise of Mr. Edwards alone but also of the whole generation of the Clergie as thou maist know Christian Reader it was the practise of the Bishop of Canterbury to exclaime against Mr Burton Doctor Bastwicke and Mr. Prynne calling them scandalous Libellers Innovators though they put their own name to that which they write and proved what they taught by divine authority and this hath beene alwayes the practise of the instruments of Sathan to accuse the Lords people for disturbing of the peace as it hath beene found in many Nations when indeede the troublers be themselves and their fathers house But in this they are like unto Athalia crying treason treason when they are in the treason themselves But for the further strengthning of his army he hath also subjoyned unto these his Answer to sixe Reasons which he saith are theirs but the forme of some of them seemeth to be of his owne making all which thou shalt finde answered and disproved in this following Treatise But though these my Answers are not laid downe in a Schollerlik way but by the plaine truth of holy Scripture yet I beseech thee have the patience to take the paynes to reade them and spare some time to consider them and if thou findest things disorderly placed laâ—our to rectifie them to thine own mind And if there be any weight in them give the glory to God but if thou feest nothing worthy attribute not the weakenesse thereof to the truth of the cause but rather to the ignorance and unskilfulnesse of the weake Instrument Thine in the Lord Jesus KATHERINE CHIDLEY THE Answer to Mr. EDVVARDS his INTRODVCTION _â— Hearing the complaints of many that were godly against the Booke that Mr. Edwards hath written and upon the sight of this his Introduction considering his desperate resolution namely that he would set out severall Tractates against the whole way of Separation I could not but declare by the testimony of the Scripture it selfe that the way of Separation is the way of God who is the author of it * which manifestly appeares by his separating of his Church from the world and the world from his Church in all ages When the Church was greater than the world then the world was to be separated from the Church but when the world was greater than the Church then the Church was to separate from the world As for instance When Caine was a member of the Church then the Church was greater than the world and Caine being discovered was exempted from Gods presence * before whom he formerly had presented himselfe c but in the time of Noah when the world was greater than the Church d then Noah and his Family who were the Church were commanded to goe into the Arke e in which place they were saved when the world was drowned f yet Ham being afterward discovered was accursed of his Father and Shem was blessed and good prophesied for Iaphat Afterward when the world was grown mightier than the Church againe then Abraham was called out of Vr of the Caldeans both from his country and from his kindred and from his fathers house g because they were Idolatâ—rs to â—â—â—ship God in Canaan Moreover afterwards Moses was seâ—â— and his brother Aaron to deliver the
should have stayed in Egypt and made him bricke but he would not suffer them to goe into the wildernesse to offer sacrifice But if Pharoah had beene willing to have succoured the children of Israel he would have commanded his taskemasters not to lay burthens upon them that they could not beare but he did not doe so and therefore their bricke-making turned to persecution even as your injunctions and penall Lawes doe here in England and you binde them up with a pretence of his Majesties command which makes the burthen very mighty By this it is plaine that no good man can live in England without persecution even at this day But you would have them to have a third way for you say persons may live in the Land and injoy their Lands and liberties and not be compelled to professe and practise things against their conscience I pray you Mr. Edwards bethinke yourselfe now how untruly you speake and whether you doe not looke one day to give an account for your words for you know that no man can live in this land and enioy his lands and liberty but he shall be forced to worship according to the custome of the Nation Nay children that be but sixteene yeares of age though ignorant and scandalous in their lives are forced to receive the Sacrament of the Lords Supper though it be to their utter condemnation Further you adde that if upon petition to the Parliament the Papists should have the Statutes repealed which injoyne them to come to your Church yet say you the granting the Papists a publike toleration for their Religion would be quite another thing in as much as you say though the Papists were the first in pâ—tâ—tioning for the former yet they move not for the latter For answer to this I tell you First That for granting the Papists publike exercises will not much crosse your principles for they and you are naturall brethren Secondly for that they move not for the latter as you say They neede not for they injoy it without moving and till this Parliament none hath disturbed them for many yeares But further you adde that so you judge that the Independant men may live in the land freely and injoy their liberties and estates but you have your clause whereby you still crosse all your own tale your clause is that it must be by comming to your Churches and enjoying the Ordinances Whereas you say so you judge it presupposeth that the Papists doe come to your Churches by what comes after that it must be by comming to your Churches and enjoying the Ordinances Indeede the Papists may come to your Churches and injoy your Ordinances for first they were their Ordinances for when you apostated from Rome you carried the Romish traditions with you even as your forefathers in their apostacie from Christ Iesus carried some of his Ordinances with them so you retaine something of Gods to make your owne ware passe in sale and have patched you up a bundle of worship borrowing â—lso some Iewish and Heâ—â—henish Ceremonies to make up your paâ—ke and will you be so kinde to suffer men to live in the land if they will but submit to this worship and promise them they shall never be compelled to professe or practise any more Indeede you are very liberall but it hath beene often said already and you have said it yourselfe that the Independant men cannot of conscience communicate with you before a Reformation Therefore if this be the medium you have betweene leaving the Land and toleration even that they must submit to your worship you might have bequeathed this Legacie to some that would accept of it and give you thankes for the Lord hath bequeathed liberty to his Sâ—â—â—ts and Servants and hath purchased it at a deare price even that they should be freed from all Egyptian bondage and hath commanded them to stand fast in that liberty wherein he hath made them free and whether they must obey Gods commands or your counsell be judge your selfe Sixâ—â—y you say If the former answers will not satisfie but that they must needs be in a Church fellowship as now they are then you say you you will shew them away according to their owne principles of a visible Church For answer whereof I must tell you that fallacies and false conclusions upon mens words without bringing their conditions can satisfie no man concerning the matter in hand but it may satisfie all men of your evill minde that you still labour to turne away the truth as it may appeare by the way you here have chalked them out to walke in which is That because it is their principle say you that a few Saints joyned together in a Covenant have power therefore you imply that there should never neede a greater addition to them * This you may know crosseth the whole Scripture as the very prophesies of the Church under the New Testament that is to say that a little one shall become a thousand and a great one a strong Nation Esay 60. 22. and that they should grow up as the Calves of the stall Mal. 4. 2. not onely in greatnesse but also in number and especially when the Lambe overcommeth that is even when the Saints overcome by the blood of the Lambe and the word of their testimony not esteeming their lives to the death Therefore you might have saved your schollership when you went about to teach them to make Churches in houses and also to come to your Church to the Word Prayer and Sacraments for they have not so learned Christ to come one part of the day to worship before the Idols and to stand another part before God for if they should doe so the Lord saith Ezek. 44. 13. they should not come neere him neither to doe the office of the Priest nor to come neare the holy things but that they should beare their shame and their abomination Further you might have saved your labour in teaching them to make family Church es for God hath directed them what to doe in their Families And it is not the practise of Gods people to shut out from their prayers and holy duties them that are of their Family for God gave his Law to Abraham for another end namely that he should teach it his Family and by so doing traine up members in his family for Christs Family Further you might have spared your care taken to shew a way for maintenance for those men among us that are schollers bred for if you can find no better maintenance for them then to come and be Lecturers amongst you as you would have them and to live in hope of the gifts of the dead that is no good provision for for want of those shooes men may goe long barefooted seeing they cannot by your owne confession doe that of conscience till there be a Reformation But you might rather have perswaded your Parish Priests to have bequeathed some of their large revenewes unto them