and other nations were mooved by Gods workes shewed in Egypt to go out with the Israelites notwithstanding that they should bee all taken into actuall communion with the Church it is onely his dreame and no such thing can be truely gathered from the place but the contrary is most probable as I could if there were any use give many reasons for it see Numb 11. 4. And the like may be said unto the place in Est â— 17. and this also further added how he knew if any were received into the fellowship of the Saints that the word of God was not preached unto them by some meanes in one measure or other before their admission As for the other texts namely Iohn 2. 23. and 4. 39. and 6. 26. His alleaging of them plainely notes that his knowledge was not much in these Scrip. Fort. Christ did not there coÌ„stitute any visible Church 2. The persons there spoken of were most of them members by birth of a true Church 3. Howsoever the things which hee mentioneth as miracles reports c. were great meanes to confirme the Gospel and to draw people unto the hearing of the word notwithstanding the word alone was the instrument Gods blessing going with it whereby the people were brought unto faith and repentance Ioh. 4. 42 4. But wherefore doth he instance these examples seeing they are extraordinary and therefore if it should be granted as hee ignorantly understands the places yet it will not follow that there is any other outward ordinary meanes to call men out of the world beside the word now of this ordinary meanes speakes the definition onely 5. Observe how the exception which he makes here against us serves nothing to helpe his case for if all the persons which he names were received into the visible Church and say it was by some other meanes beside the word that mooved their hearts to obey the Lord therein yet how can he proove that these were outwardly wicked and irreligious knowne to be Idolaters drunkards sorcerers mockers lyers blasphemers c. For unlesse he can manifest this if all the rest were granted yet will it not stead him a whit to justifie the state of the English Church which was erected after popery as hee could not deny of such vile varlets and uncleane creatures It is therefore worth the noting what ill speede Mr. Dayr hath still in all his testimonies and witnesses for after he hath puld them in at the window or backdoore by the haire of the head yet this is his crosse either they stand up against him or are quite dumb and speake not a word touching the point for which he brings them We heard what the reasons are why Mr. Dayrell disliked our definition Now before we come to the last part of his booke there is somthing to be said touching the manner which he layes downe of making of Churches by the sword about this he begins with a tedious comparison of one that hath children and servants which be papists and by threats will have them worship God aright thereupon they frequent the Church assemblies and seeme outwardly to be religious and are to be accounted of the visible church and yet these came not to be of the Church by the call of the word c. now may the master and father doe this and may not the magistrate c. Ans 1. Howsoever parents and masters are to use all good means that those which are under their government may be religious holy yet have they not anie more power to make them members of Gods Church if they be not under the visible covenant then they have power to give them saving grace sanctification 2. Whereas he saith these come not to be of the visible Church by the call of the word that is untrue For howsoever a person may come to the place where a Church is yet his comming simplie there doth not immediately make him an actuall member of it as he still ignorantly intimates For those of his brethren which were farre more judicious then himselfe doe teach otherwise when men doe profitt in hearing then are they to be joyned to the Church But it seemes if Heathen Turkes would have but come to his service and preaching he would have acknowledged them to be part of his flock albeit they manifested no repeÌ„tance at all If he should say no then were he contrarie to his owne saying here 3. This Similitude is against himselfe For first the Magistrate did not commaund the Subjects to goe unto Churches formerly gathered and there to be prepared by hearing but forded them to be members they beeing altogether and every way most unfitt 2. The worship which they did was not according to Gods word but after the traditions and devises of men 3. They neither outwardly seemed religious nor renounced Poperie nor professed true religion but in all this plainely shewed the contrarie as we have before proved by their owne writings After this he makes a long narration to justify this compulsion by the practise of the â—ings of Iâ—dah now this point by others hath beene so fullie answered as one would thinke that Mr. Dayr should never have had the forehead once to have named it except he had been more able to refute their arguments For answere to it I deny that there is any true proportion between this Example and the thing unto which they doe apply it 1. The Iewish Church was nationall but such are none now under the Gospell neither Provinciall nor Diocesan as the Nonconformists doe say and prove 2. Howsoever Iud. .h fell fearfully into sinne yet by vertue of the Lords covenant with her forefathers faithfully on his part remembred and kept remained still the true Church of God and was not as Israel quite broken-off and therfore the Magistrate compelled not the people to be members but to perform the duties thereof they beeing members truly before Indeed if either Hezechiah Iosiah Asa or Nehemiah had forced the Fdomites Aegyptians Babylonians c. into the holy Temple and there to have sacrificed to the Lord it had been something like unto their practise For the English nation coÌ„sisting of many sheires citties townes and villages was never within the Lords covenant holy in the roote as Iudah was Howbeit it may be many hundred yeares past there were some true churches planted in the Land by the preaching of the Gospell and obedience of faith 3. The ministerie worship and church government unto which Iudah submitted was the Lords and the contrarie abolished by her good Governours as the reader may see by these scriptures But neither in the beginning of King Edwards or Q. Elizabeths raigne was there such a course taken but the selfe same false ministerie worship and church government left to stand which the Romish beast had before devised and is at this day used in his cursed Kingdome onely some few faults put out and this themselves when
but to make a service sayer or a reader of prayers out of a booke so that a starke foole or an arrant knave may fulfill all the conditions which they require of him It is certaine sayth Mr. Gilby he that will vse Antichrists ragges may be made an English Priest be he never such a dolt or villaine The truth is the conditioÌ„ of those men whome the Prelates for the most part thrust into their ministerie is so contemptible and base as they affirme that Ieroboom never made worse Priests of the refuse of the people to serve his goulden Calves Nay they say more If the devill did make and send forth ministers he could not finde worse men upon the earth and if he would have worse he must bring them out of hel Mr. Cartwright sayth of a certainty that all the Ecclesiasticall histories extant are not able to furnish vs of so many vnworthy ministers chosen by all the churches throughout the world which have beene since the Apostles time as have swarmed these few yeares out of the Palaces as out of the Troian horse of that small number of Bbs which are in England c. and there is as much difference betweene them and the ministers chosen in other congregations beyond the sea as betweene gold and copper or any other refuse mettal I have not yet declared what the Nonconformists write touching the most ungodly courses used by their Priests to procure benefices and how extreamely they tyrannise over the poore people and will be officers to them though they conseÌ„t not unto it nay howbeit they be wholy against it have good reasoÌ„ for it yet if the Patron whether Popish prophane or religious all is one the Bishop doe accord in the businesse they must necessarily put their necks under the yoak of this wicked usurper or remove their dwelling though it be to their utter undoing beside the congregation knowes not what the conversation is of him who by the arme of flesh is forced upon them neither his fittnesse in gifts for the ministery This cannot be denyed say they that there is not any one man or woman amongst 40 in any one Parish among 40 that can tell that ever he or she did see or heare of the minister appointed sent by the Ordinary to be parson or vicar of the Parish vacant before such time as he or shee did heare or see the Parish Clarke tâ— trudge with the Church doâ—â— keâ—eâ— to let in the Sâ—xtin to ring the bells for the sayd parson or vicars induction and reall possession Oh intollerable bondage that men should be thus bought and sould like beasts and yet there is little hope of reformation in regard too many will rather submitt to those slaughterous inhumane courses then seeke to redeem their pretious liberty by good and lawfull meanes And for that base and shamefull beggerinesse which they use to gett benifices it cannot be better shewed then Mr. Brightman hath truly done it Thus he writes Let vs take a view and make a generall muster as it were of the whole Cleargie and if you will let vs begin at the basest vnder lings The Curates as they cal them are both in very deed and in all mens account a company of beggarly fellowes In whom a man may see that verifyed which was threatned against the family of Eli men bowing themselves to the ground for a pecee of silver and a morsell of bread and craving to bee put into one of the Priests offices that hee may have a snappe at a crust of bread 1. Sa. 3. 36. Now for the rest those that by meanes of their more full purses walke more lustily such as wee call sturdy beggars what running vp and down is there among them what bribing what importunate and impudent begging what flattering offers do they make of all their obeisance and all duetifull complements that they may come by these Ecclesiasticall promotions You may see many of them that post vp to the Court or to the house of the right honourable The Lord keeper of the great Seale For these two places are like the beautifull Gate of Salomons Temple Act. 3. 2. Men come in by this way apace thicke and threefold and they are in great hope to carry away some good releife Others there are that become followers of Noble men and Peers of the Land whose Chaplines they become either houshould or retayners as I may call them that live vnder their potection for what end trow ye Even for this and no other that assoone as any Benefice as they call it shall fall voyd they might enioy it by their Lords gift And doth not this I pray ye soeme to be an honest way to get a Church-living no such base and beggarly one as you speake of But is not this currying of favour meere beggary Is it any whit a lesseâ—iltâ—sy thing to come to a Rectory that is of Gods appointmeÌ„t by favour then by money If wee will iudge indifferently it is all one fault to creepe inc whither it bee by bribing and Symony or by fawning and flattery The rest of the rout in the Country are diligent in attending the common sort of Patrones whose thresholds they by watching at whose wyves they brave and court as if they were their Mistresses whose children they cogge with whose servants they allure with faire words and promises to bee their Spokesmen and in every place and point they play the partes of miserable beggers Some there are that begg more craftily like to those that sit in the high wayes or in places where two wayes meete and there they offer pilled roddes to passengers to get a peece of money therewith as it were a penniworth for a peny So do these men make way for their suits by large giving of money in hand or els by compacting to give some of their yearely Tithes for a gratification But some man will say all this is not the corruption of lawes but the corruptnes of men Nay surely as long as that manner of conferring Ecclesiasticall charges taketh place which hath been in vse among vs to this day there can bee no remedy applyed to cure or prevent this beggerlines Doe wee not sufficiently finde it to bee true in experience In the late Parliament lawes were enacted severely against it but what came of that Nothing truely but that it made men deale more closely and cunningly to cosen the law Wee must not think to do any good with our laws where Christes laws are not observed But to proceede when once the living is by beggery obtayned from the Patrone what a deale of begging worke is there to come for those Sir Iohn Lack-latines that Institution might bee had from the B b. Here hee must supplicate not onely to the right reverend Lord B b but to Master Examiner to my Lords Grome of his Chamber his Register the yeoman of his Buttery and Larder yea the
of some ministers in the Land which were mostly vnconformable Now it had been wel if he had publickly declared so much and shewed the differences between the true and false and proved soundly by Gods word such to be true ministers whome he so judged For a little of this kind of writing would have profitted more the professors in England than a multitude of wordes and yet all but one thing about 2. or 3. foolish ceremonies and which are the least evils of many hundreds among them There are others of them to my knowledge in this thing of the D. mind to weet that some few ministers onely in the land are true and privately they doe expresse so much But in the meane time the people are ignorant hereof and therefore walke disorderly and so greivously sin against God and their own soules But of this enough elsewhere Therefore to the matter I wish the D. had declared what the â—ssence is of a minister in his judgement and whence the calling of his ministers doth essentially depend if not upon the Bishops calling For then to use his owne words this question would easily be decided but seeing he thought it best in this to be silent I answere directly 1. The ministery of England as it is established by law doth certainly depend vpon the Bishops calling wholy no mans else if any in the Land stand otherwise he cannot properly be said to be a minister of that church but rather is a schismatick from it according to the formall constitution of it And for this we have the testimony of another other Doctor and a man better experienced then ever Mr. Ames was in the making of English Preists and Deacons If you sayth he writing against Mr. Penry repel the vnpreaching minister because of his outward calling you may by the same reason discharge the worthiest ministers in the land of the holy ministery For all have one and the same externall calling in the church of England This witnesse is true all their ministers indeed have one the same outward calling I say their best preachers no other then their ignorant asses idols have the difference betweene them is onely in their qualification for a calling and in the execution thereof and not in the outward calling it selfe For in this respect if any ministerie be false and Antichristian there is never a ministerie then true among them all And so much D. Ames seemes to acknowledge in p. 410. for there he saith that power of ordinatioÌ„ is not given by our lawes to individua vaga that is to say vagrant men of whome the law taketh no notice such as were wont to be called Hedge-preists but to authorized Prelates Now if none by their law have power to ordaine but Bb. then are his ministers either made officers by them or else as I said before they are not of that church and so he speakes not any thing to the matter in hand Secondly there is not any congregation in the land that hath any power to ordaine a Church-officer neither is this either formallie nor I thinke intentially any where practised For the most free Parish hath but only a liberty to admitt of a minister before made by the Bishops so that the people give him not any part much lesse the substance of his callingâ— as Mr. Paget vntruely speaketh but a bare permission onely to exercise by vertue of that calling which he had of the Prelates Such therefore doe horribly abuse the people which ascribe that unto theÌ„ which they neither doe can doe nor inteÌ„d to doe we blame justly the Familists for their idle pretence of inward devotion they manifesting no outward obedience whereby we should judge well of them Yet truely as bad as they are this in them can better be justified then Mr. Doct. new principle to wit that the calling of their ministers doth essentially depeÌ„d vpon the peoples calling For so I know he meanes for it is so palpably false as there cannot be a leafe found to cover the nakednesse of it For as I said how can it with any coulorable shew be affirmed that the people should doe that thing concerning which they neither doe nor intend to doe any thing belonging to it nay more which they make account is done before and not only so but doe thinke at least most of them that it doth not at all appertain unto theÌ„ Vpon this ground a man might devise and say any thing but I spare to urge it further because the man is not alive to answer me If any list to make a rejoinder he shall heare more in my next answer But before he goe forth hastily to strive let him first make diligent search among all the Parish assemblies in the land whether there be any that doe make their own ministers according to Gods word that is choose them by a generall and free consent ordaine them by imposition of hands with fasting and prayer c. For about this is our question and not of their fittnesse to be ministers neither of the leave which the people give to administer among them after they are made ministers by the Bishops Moreover I thinke that D. Ames in pag. 412. doth contradict himselfe his words are these If the rejoynder would have brought a fitting example he should have shewed vs that Paul or Barnabas beeing at Ierusalem ordeyned a minister and sent him to Antioche Iconium or Listra signifying by letters that such a man was appointed their Pastor though they never knew or heard of him before for that had been somthing like vnto the practice of a Bishop who vpon the Patrons praesentation wheresoever he be sendeth his minister from the place or Palace of his residence vnto a congregation 20. 30. or 40. miles of which poore despised people must be content with towling of a bell as sufficient notice given of their ministers fittnesse and their necessitie to acknowledge the same he speaketh so generallie as I take it his ministers are here comprehended and I have good reason so to thinke in regard of a busines which he writes of his experience I was saith he once and never but once I thanke God before a Bishop and beeing presented vnto him by a cheife Magestrate of an incorporation for to be a preacher in their towne the lowly man first asked them how they durst choose a preacher without his consent you said he are to receive the preacher that I appoint you For I am your Pastor though he never fed them And then turning to me how durst you said he preach in my diocesse without my leave so that without any other reason but meer Lordship the whole incorporation and I were dismissed to wait his pleasure which I for my part have don this twenty yeare and more By this little the reader may judge whether the calling of their ministers doth essencially depend vpon the Bishop or peoples calling 3. If it should be granted
confesse these were good separatists and they did lawfully forsake the body whereof they stood formerly members notwithstanding if we take a strict view and inquiry of that ministerie worship and Government which they left at Dan and Bethel it will appeare evidently that the same was not more false idolatrous and vnlawfull then the present ministerie worship and government of the English assemblies is by the Nonconformists affirmed to be and because none may thinke that I speake more than can be proved I will therefore here lay down an Apologie or pretext which an Idolatrous Israelite might frame in the defence of the Kings Religion takeÌ„ out of their own writings if D. Ames phrase be tollerable I will pawne my head that there is never a Nonconformists this day in the world let him keepe to their groundes that is able to give more pretty reasons and coulourable shews to justifie the Religion of the Church of England for thus they write When the Preists and Levits according to their duety resisted the novation as liking better of their better warranted old profession both they and some of all the Tribes of Israel following the voyce of God in their mouthes were hardly intreated whereupon there arose a great schisme The men of Iudah and some of Israel objected that they had forsaken God but the most part of Israel judged them to be renters of the vnity of the Kirk rebells against the King who was advanced by the Lord beside all expectation was their lawfull Prince peaceably disposed contenting himselfe with his own Kingdome providing for the good estate of his own people and vsing all meanes that they follow not other gods and esteemed them to be superstitious Precisians in standing out against so gracious a King commanding nothing against any article of faith against any fundamentall point of salvation detesting the Gods of the Nations and all kinde of idolatry The matters he vrged were but circumstantiall rituall and variable and such as the best Kings having the Lords approbation had changed before They could say that the worship was the same in substance that they served the same God who brought them out of Egypt with the sacrifices and observation of all the statutes kept by all the fathers since the beginning of the world That their Bullocks which Precisians called idols were similitudes representing the onely sacrifice of the Messiah in whom they looked for salvation Were there not Cherubines in the Tabernacle and Temple and twelve Oxen or Buls of brasse appointed by the wisest King The Lord forbiddeth such images onely as have divine worship done vnto them like the Calse in the wildernes turning the glory of God into the similitude of a bullock that eateth grasse But they could say that they worshipped not these Calves more then the images of the Cherubines Are we so grosse when we say Behold our Gods as to think that they brought vs out of Egypt We speake figuratively as the Arke was called the King of Glorie and the holy Lord God Wee will rather give our lives lands libertie and all then commit Idolatry for the pleasure of any Prince and doe abhorre the abuse of Images which is to bow down and serve them albeit we be not of that mind but we may have them and worship God by them because we know no place of Scripture to the contrary The place of worship is but a circumstance and to tie Gods presence to any place who is neere in all times and places to them that call upon him is superstition The Arke was not ever in one place but often removed In Salomons own time there was two publick places of Gods worship and Salomon sacrificed in them both Is not the whole land holy The promise made to Salomon of a speciall presence at Ierusalem was tyed to the condition of keeping his Statutes and Iudgements wherein he hath failed And therefore as his Throne is thrown down which the Lord at the same time promised to establish so hath the place lost the priviledge of holinesse We may plead from Antiquity for heere is Bethel so famous for that glorious testimony of his presence given to Iacob from whom we this day have the name of Israel Rehoboam is no wiser then his father he may fall into his Idolatry and so Israel by resorting to Ierusalem may be snared All danger of Idolatry would be prevented the poore people eased of their tedious journies and both Prince and people saved from Rhehoboams conspiracy All this dinne and division proceedeth of the humours of some contentious and avaritious Levits seducing the simple people making them to thinke that God cannot be served but in Ierusalem after their fashion in every circumstance and particular ceremony and of the doting of some persons of the weakest wit and â—ox delighting to goe abroad to be talked of for zeale and more pleased with any worship then that which they have at home The observation of the Feast of Tabernacles vpon the 15 day of the 8 month is but the change of a circumstance of time The day was made for man and not man for the day It was lawfull by Gods own warrant to keep the Passeover on the 14 day of the second month he careth not for the month so the day be kept It is presumption to alter things substantiall in matters of faith or doctrine but superstition to stand vpon circumstances and variable ceremonies What can be done the Lords worship cannot be neglected If the Priests of Levi make it nice will still prove contentious and lead a faction with them for strengthening the Kingdome of Iudah vpon warrant of Antiquity before the distinction of Levi was made for orders sake others of other Tribes as well qualified as themselves must be put in their places and they put away as Abiathar was by Salomon because he had his hand with Adonijah It may be when they see their places well filled and the charity of profuse people which cannot last long to decay that their giddines will go away and they returne to their right wits The Prophet that came to the King when his hand dryed vp might have beene a Witch comming with lying wonders for he was slaine by a Lyon and howsoever he threatned destruction he condescended vpon no time lest he should have been convinced of a lye Ahijah dealt not with the King in meeknesse and sincerity as became a Prophet but by his bitternesse and passion declared that he was partially inclyned to Iudah Abijah dyed not before his day All things come a like to the godly and to the wicked to him that sacrificeth and him that sacrificeth not Or if his death was vntimous it was rather for his secret intentious crossing his fathers courses then for any good that was in him towards the God of Israel as the Prophet would have it In Elias time there were seuen thousand in Israel which bowed not vnto Baal That is refused to joyne
not true religion though she profâ—sse some true and sound doctrins in regard she maintaineth many lyes and vile errours Mr. Gilbâ—e a forward minister reckoneth up above seven score grosse points of poperie remaining in their Church and many others of them have don the like as I have in this treatise manifested And I think it would aske a better witt and head then ever Mr. Dayr had to proove that there are halfe so many corruptions in the religion professed by the Eng. Anabaptists From pag 41. to 51. there are certaine reasons as he calls them to prove the Church of Eng. and their Parish assemblies true visible churches As for the first of them I deny both the Proposition and Assumption He saith Whatsoever people or nation is within the dayly voice and call of God c. the same is a true visible Church This is untruelie affirmed as I have proved before and for his speaking of it againe it sheweth the more his ignorance in the way of God For will any wise man take Lyons Wolves Foxes c. into his sheepsould sow tares or darnel in his garden plant thistles or thornes in his Orchard The Church is the Lords speepcfowld his garden orchard c. and therefore if Mr. Dayr had been so wise as he should he would not have spoken so corruptly but have given rather counsell to keepe out vncleane persons considering what the Prophet saith Holynes becommeth thy house o Iehovah to length of dayes Againe we may perceive by his wordes that he understood not the nature of a visible Church For as to the constitution of it there belongs a holie people as the matter so also a uniting and coupling of them together which is the forme whereof it consisteth As the constitution of a common wealth or of a cittie is a gathering and knitting of people together in a civill Policie so the Constitution of the common wealth of Israel as the Church is called and of the cittie of God the new Ierusalem is a gathering and uniting of people into a spiritual Policie The forme of which Policie is order as the Philososophers acknowledged calling Policie an order of a citty which Order is requisite in every administration of the Church as the Apostle teacheth and cheifly in the collection thereof And therefore next unto Faith in God it is to be esteemed most necessarie for all holie societies This was one thing for which Paul rejoyced in the Church at Collosse as for their steadfast Faith in Christ so their Order also But Mr. Dayr will have his Church without Order or Forme and what is it then but a meere atâ—xie or confuse Chaos a state onlie fitt for the devills Goates to be in which desire liberty and not for Christ sheepe which are to make streight pathes to their feet He saith there lyeth no exception against the Assumption And why so because their Pastors and Teachers are true ministers Me thinkes the man should have beene ashamed to have begd so much at one time But to let his folishnesse passe we do deny them to be lawfull Officerâ— and have brought their owne hands against them for it Secondly he writes here against his brethren yea and I thinke against his owne conscience For the greatest number of their Bb. Preists Deacons are dumb dogs ignorant asses c. such as either cannot or through pride sullnesse bread and abundance of idlenesse Sodomes sinnes will not preach and therefore it is untruely said that the people generally of England are within the dayly voyce and call of God 3. The later part of his reason is wholie against himselfe sor whereas his wordes import that the people generally of England are impenitent sinners and unbeleevers it must follow necessarily that they are alltogether uncapable of any Church estate and so much we have formerly proved Were it not a ridiculous thing to set up a house with wood and stones and afterward to take Axes Sawes Hammers and other tooles to cutt saw and fitt them for the building yet such an unskilfull builder Mr. Dayr sheweth himselfe in his whole booke For hee will have idolaters adulterers theeves conjurers murderers and any villain in the Land to be placed in the Lords spirituall house and afterward will have meanes used to prepare them for the same Not to contend about the proposition of his second argument howbeit it is verie faulty I denie the assump viz. that the people of England doe injoy and outwardly submit themselves to the true worship of God for the worship which they have is affirmed of the Nonconformists to be antichristian and unlawfull but let us heare his reason If such as both in their life and at theire death served God with the verie same worship we doe have in that worship beene saved then iâ— the worship wee now have true divine worship But the first is true therefore the second If Mr. Bradshaw had found such a reason in Mr. Iohnsons writing he would surely have called him idle head crackt braind foole c. but I leave such terms to men of his intemperate spirit and doe thus answer 2. A Papist Arminian or Anabaptist may say as much and upon as good ground and who dares denie but manie of their religion have found mercie with the Lord must it therefore follow that their worship is good indeed Mr. Dayr logick so concludeth it 2 Men may serve God with an outward worship not agreeable to his word and yet be saved for who knoweth how infinitely good hee is to his poore creature 3. It is apparent this man had a very ill case in hand that could not tell how to maintaine it but by revealing the secret and hid consell of the Lord for I wonder how he came to know who in their worship have beene saved if he should say in the judgement of charitie he thinkes thus then his argument must be of an another fashion namely that he thinkes their worship is true for otherwise it will want shape and proportion 4. It hath beene the constant practice of the godly to proove their positions by the scriptures but it is likely he saw that there was no helpe for him there and therefore onely makes use of this reasonlesse reason His third argument is foolish and carnall and both parts of it false For first it is incident to the best and purest Churches upon earth to erre and to bee deceived and therefore their sentences and approbations must be examined by Gods word 2. If the reformed Churches doe justifie the English therein they condemne greately their owne practice for in theire constitution ministery worship and governement they are as opposite as light and darkenesse one to the other and so much the Nonconformists confesse 3. Seeing the Prophets Christ and his Apostles condemne their Church their case is never a whit the better though all men in the world speake well of it 4. The
they write against the Hierarchie doe avouch boldly 4. If we consider the Preists and people of the Iewes it will appeare evidently that there is no agreemeÌ„t or liknesse in the coÌ„parison For these separated themselvs froÌ„ the filthines of the heathen of the land confessed their sinns humbled their soules by fasting and prayer before the Lord sanctifyed themselves prepared their whole heart to seeke God made a covenant with him frejoyced at the oath kept the passover with joy But the English at first in every particular were much unlike these people as appeares by the great rebellions which they made in many places because they thought that their idolatrous service should be put downe Yea so unwilling were they to leave their idolatrie as the Magistrate was saine to informe them by a proclamation how they did mistake his reformation It seemes to you saith he speaking of their Mattens and Evening song that you have a new Service now indeed it is no other but the olde the selfesame words in English which were in Latin saving a few things taken out so fond that it had been a shame to have heard them in English c. If therefore the Service in the Church was good in Latin it remaineth good in English for nothing is altered but to speake with knowledge that which was ignorantly before uttered To be short I would have them once to tell us where they have learned to inforce and constraine men to be members of their Churches I thinke they will not finde a president for it in the world unlesse they take it from Mahomets doctrine who taught that men should be compelled to the faith by warre and sword For all reformed Churches practice otherwise There are no swine and dogs driven in among the Godly but whosoever joynes comes freely and voluntarily to them sometimes Mr. Dayr and his brethren are all for these Churches but when they see that their owne standing must needes be naught and foule if the others be justifyed then they will call back their words againe and plead corruptly for themselves Mr. Dayr hath one string yet left to his bow the which if it should be broken too then all the shooting would be mard Be it granted saith he that all our parish assemblies were at first no true Churches c. yet notwithstanding now they may be and indeed are true seeing that ever since above fifty yeares we have beene partakers of the true word and Sacraments and many of us effectually called thereby and to drive this nayle into the readers head he layes downe a similitude thus There are many men in a house but gotten into it not through the doore whereby is the ordinary passage into it but by some back doore or through the window or haply at some breach violently made into the same house were it not extreame folly or rather madnesse because of this manner of entrance to deny the inbeing of the aforesaid men in the house Answ A man fallen into the water will rather catch at a mote theÌ„ willingly sinke it is just so with this Mr. Dayr being loth to fall under the controversie which inconsiderately he took up he talks of this thing and that the which if they should be judiciously weighed would be all fouÌ„â— as lâ—ight as vanity To reply breifly for it is not worth a long answer First if their Churches were false in the Constitution then are they so still because they stand in the very same state and have not repented of the evill thereof neither since have entered into any visible covenant with God by publick and voluntarie profession of faith If two persons should make an adulterous covenant who would deeme them to be Lawfully man and wife so long as they stood by vertue of that false agreement which they made at first together 2. Their having of the word and Sacraments proves no more their Churches to be true then doth a true mans purse in the hand of a theife prove him to be an honest man As the Lords Vessels were of old in temporall Babilon so are there sundry of his Ordinances now in spirituall Babiâ—â—n and therefore the Papists can say the like and all other Hereticks if any should reply but these have the word preached in an vnlawfull ministery and the Sacraments vnrightly administred I answere the same may be said of the English assemblies as the Nonconform have soundly proved 3. What their obedience is the reader may partly guesse by comparing their profession and practise together The former is shewed in this treatise and what the later is all may see it at home by their doings in England As the Prophet said of Israâ—l let them lift up their eyes to the high places and behold where they have not plaid the harlot I could give many instances to shew what small cause they have to boast of their order and manner of walking For first they are not a people separated and called from the world a dutie much urged in the scriptures and practised allwayes by the saints 2. They are not free but stand most slavishly under strange Lords expresly against Gods commaundement 3. They worship the Lord not in the sincere order of the Gospell but after an Idolatrous and Popish manner which is a fearfull and crying iniquity 4. Add hereunto the knowledge which many of them have that these things are evill It is the saying of King Iames that the Puritans are the founders and fathers of the Brownists the later saith he only boldâ—y putting in practise what the former doc teach but dare not pâ—rforme For what end he wrote this I let it passe but the words in part are true Our separation from the Church of England is by their grounds certainly good and lawfull and therefore they say and doe not Now what the reason of it is I know not unlesse to enjoy libertie pleasure profiâ—t freinds credit and such wordly respects I doe omitt the fearefull apostasies which sundry of them have made from that obedience unto which they were come some for wives others for riches and many to avoyd persecution for the crosse of Christ Besides whome doe they take for greater enemies then the Separatists And why because as the King said these boldly put in practise what they doe teach but dare not performe And for this verie thinge many of us have receaved most greevous injuries both from their tongues and hands but the Lord forgive them for it 4. Be it granted that som of them are effectually called what then doe these make all the rest holie not in the least for as a handfull or bundle of corne shuffled into a feild of weeds though in it selfe it may retaine the same nature yet cannot make the feild a cornefeild so neither can a few good Christians sanctifie the whole lump of the idolatrous vile multitude in the Land and make them to