Authority upon them first A. After the Inundation of Northern People had overflowed the Western Parts of the Empire and possessed themselves of Italy the People of the City of Rome submitted themselves as well in Temporals as Spirituals to their Bishop and then first was the Pope a Temporal Prince and stood no more in so great fear of the Emperors which lived far off at Constantinople In this time it was that the Pope began by pretence of his Power Spiritual to encroach upon the Temporal Rights of all other Princes of the West and so continued gaining upon them till his Power was at the highest in that 300 years or thereabout which passed between the time of Pope Leo the 3. and Pope Innocent the 3. For in this time Pope Zachary 1. deposed Chilperick then King of France and gave the Kingdom to one of his Subjects Pepin And Pepin took from the Lombards a great part of their Territory and gave it to the Church Shortly after the Lombards having recovered their Estate Charles the Great retook it and gave it to the Church again and Pope Leo the 3. made Charles Emperor B. But what Right did the Pope there pretend for the creating of an Emperor A. He pretended the Right of being Christs Vicar and what Christ could give his Vicar might give and you know that Christ was King of all the World B. Yes as God and so he gives all the Kingdoms of the World which nevertheless proceed from the consent of People either for fear or hope A. But this Gift of the Empire was in a more special Manner in such a manner as Moses had the Government of Israel given him or rather as Joshua had it given him to go in and out before the People as the High Priest should direct him and so the Empire was understood to be given him on condition to be directed by the Pope For when the Pope invested him with the Regal Ornaments the People all cryed out Deus dat that is to say 't is God that gives it And from that time all or most of the Christian Kings do put into their Titles the words Dei gratia that is by the gift of God And their Successors use still to receive the Crown and Scepter from a Bishop 'T is certainly a very good Custom for Kings to be put in mind by whose gift they reign but it cannot from that Custom he infer'd that they receive the Kingdom by mediation from the Pope or by any other Clergy For the Popes themselves received the Papacy from the Emperor the first that ever was elected Bishop of Rome after Emperors were Christians and without the Emperors consent executed himself by Letter to the Emperor with this that the People and Clergy of Rome forced him to take it upon him and prayed the Emperor to confirm it which the Emperor did but with Reprehension of their Proceedings and prohibition of the like for the time to come the Emperor was Lotharius and the Pope Calixtus the first A. You see by this the Emperor never acknowledged this gift of God was the gift of the Pope but maintained the Popedom was the gift of the Emperor but in process of time by the negligence of the Emperor for the greatness of Kings makes them that they cannot easily descend into the obscure and narrow Mines of an ambitious Clergy they found means to make the people believe there was a Power in the Pope and Clergy which they ought to submit unto rather than to the Commands of their own King whensoever it should come into Controversy and to that end devised and decreed many new Articles of Faith to the diminution of the Authority of Kings and to the disjunction of them and their Subjects and to a closer adherence of their Subjects to the Church of Rome's Articles either not at all found in or not well founded upon the Scripture as first That it should not be lawful fur a Priest to Marry What influence could that have upon the power of Kings do you not see that by this the King must of necessity either want the Priesthood and therewith a great part of the Reverence due to him from the most Religious part of his Subjects or else want Lawful Heirs to succeed in by which means being not taken for the Head of the Church he was sure in any controversie between him and the Pope that his Subjects would be against him B. Is not a Christian King as much a Bishop now as the Heathen Kings were of old for amongst them Episcopus was a name common to all Kings is not he a Bishop now to whom god hath committed the charge of all the Souls of his Subjects both of the Laity and of the Clergy And though he be in relation to our Saviour who is the chief Pastour of Sheep yet compared to his own Subjects they are all Sheep both Laick and Clergy and he the onely Shepherd and seeing a Christian Bishop is but a Christian endued with power to govern the Clergy it follows that every Christian King is not onely a Bishop but an Archbishop and his whole Kingdom his Diocess And though it were granted that Imposition of hands were necessary for a Priest yet seeing Kings have the power of Government of the Clergy that are the Subjects even before Baptism the Baptism it self where he is received as a Christian is a sufficient Imposition of Hands so that whereas before he was a Bishop now he is a Christian Bishop A. For my part I agree with you this prohibition of Marriage to Priests came in about the time of Pope Gregory the Seventh and William the First King of England by which means the Pope had in England what with Secular and what with Regular Priests a great many lusty Batchelors at his service Secondly that Auricular Confession to a Priest was necessary to Salvation 'T is true that before that time Confession to a Priest was usual and performed for the most part by him that Confessed People And the end which the Pope had in multiplying Sermons was no other but to prop and enlarge his own Authority over all Christian Kings and States B. Within the same time that is between the time of the Emperor Charles the Great and of King Edward the Third of England began their second Policy which was to bring Religion into an Art and thereby to maintain all their Degrees of the Roman Church by Disputation not onely from the Scriptures but also from the Philosophy of Aristotle both Moral and Natural and to that end the Pope exhorted the said Emperor by Letters to erect Schools of all kinds of Literature and from thence began the institution of Universities for not long after the Universities began in Paris and in Oxford It is true that there were Schools in England before that time in several places for the instruction of Children in the Latin Tongue that is to say in the Tongue of the Church but
Nation And of those Designs the Promoters and Actors were they said 1. Jesuits and Papists 2. The Bishops and part of the Clergy that cherish formality as a support of their own Ecclesiastical Tyâ—â—nny and Usurpation 3. Counsellors and Courtiers that for private ends they said had engaged themselves to farther the Interests of some Foreign Princes B. It may well be that some of the Bishops and also some of the Court may have in pursuit of their private Interest done something indiscreetly and perâ—â—ps wickedly therefore I pray tell me particularly what their Crimes were for me thinks the King should not have conniv'd at any thing against his own Suâ—â—eam Authority A. The Parliament were not very keen against them that were against the King They made no doubt but all they did was by the King's Command but accused thereof the Bishops Counsellors and Courtiers as being a more mannerly way of Accusing the King himself and defaming him to his Subjects For the truth is the Charge they brought against them was so general as not to be called an Accusation but Railing As first They said they nourished Questions of Prerogatives and Liberty between the King and his People to the end that seeming much addicted to His Majesty's Service they might get themselves into places of greatest Trust and Power in the Kingdom B. How could this be call'd an Accusation in which there is no Fact for any Accusers to apply their Proof to or their Witnesses for granting that these Questions of Prerogative had been moved by them who can prove that their End was to gain to themselves and Friends the Places of Trust and Power in the Kingdom A. A second Accusation was that they endeavour'd to suppress the Purity and Power of Religion B. That 's Canting It is not in Man's power to suppress the Power of Religion A. They meant that they supprest the Doctrine of the Presbyterians that is to say the very Foundation of their Parliaments Treacherous Pretensions A third That they cherished Arminians Papists and Libertines by which they meant the common Protestants that meddle not with Disputes to the end they might compose a body fit to Act according to their Counsels and Resolutions A fourth That they endeavoured to put the King upon other courses of raising of Money than by the ordinary way of Parliaments Judge whether these may be properly called Accusations or not rather â—pightful Reproaches of the King's Government B. Methinks this last was a very great fault for what good could there be in putting the King upon any odd course of getting Money when the Parliament was willing to supply him as far as to the security of the Kingdom or to the honour of the King should be necessary A. But I told you before they would give him none but with a Condition he should cut off the heads of whom they pleased how faithfully soever they had serv'd him and if he would have sacrificed all his Friends to their Ambition yet they would have found other excuses to deny him Subsidies for they were resolv'd to take from him the Soveraign Power to themselves which they would never do without taking great care that he should have no Money at all In the next place they put into the Remonstrance as faults of them whose Council the King followed All those things which since the beginning of the King's Reign were by them misliked whether faults or not and whereof they were not able to judge for want of knowledge of the Causes and Motives that induced the King to do them and were known only by the King himself and such of his Privy-Council as he revealed them to B. But what were those particular pretended faults A. First The Dissolution of the last Parliament at Oxford Secondly The Dissolution of his second Parliament being in the second year of his Reign Thirdly The Dissolution of his Parliament in the fourth year of his Reign Fourthly The fruitless Expedition against Cales Fifthly the Peace made with Spain whereby the Palatine's Cause was deserted and left to chargeable and hopeless Treaties Sixthly The sending of Commissions to raise Money by way of Loan Seventhly Raising of Ship-money Eighthly Enlargements of Forrests contrary to Magna Charta Ninthly The Designment of Engrossing all the Gun-powder into one hand and keeping it in the Tower of London Tenthly A Design to bring in the Use of Brass-Money Eleventhly The Fines Imprisonments Stigmatizings Mutilations Whippings Pillories Gaggs Confinements and Banishments by Sentence in the Court of Star-Chamber Twelfthly The displacing of Judges Thirteenthly The Illegal Acts of Council-Table Fourteenthly The Arbitrary and Illegal Power of the Earl-Marshal's Court. Fifteenthly The Abuses in Chancery Exchequer-Chamber and Court of Wards Sixteenthly The selling of Titles of Honour of Judges and Serjeants Places and other Offices Seventeenthly The Insolence of Bishops and other Clarks in Suspensions Excommunications and Degradations of divers painful and learned and pious Ministers B. Were there any such Ministers Degraded Depraved or Excommunicated A. I cannot tell But I remember I have heard threatned divers painful unlearned and seditious Ministers Eighteenthly The Excess of Severity of the High-Commission-Court Nineteenthly The Preaching before the King against the Property of the Subject and for the Prerogative of the King above the Law and divers other petty Quarrels they had to the Government which though they were laid upon this Faction yet they knew they would fall upon the King himself in the Judgment of the People to whom by Printing it was communicated Again After the Dissolution of the Parliament May the 5th 1640. they find other faults as the Dissolution it self the Imprisoning some Members of both Houses a forced Loan of Money attempted in London the Continuance of the Convocation when the Parliament was ended and the favour shewed to Papists by Secretary Windebank and others B. All this will go currant with common people for Mis-government and for faults of the King 's though some of them were Mis-fortunes and both the Mis-fortunes and the Mis-governments if any were were the faults of the Parliament who by denying to give him Money did both frustrate his Attempts abroad and put him upon those extraordinary ways which they call Illegal of raising Money at home A. You see what a heap of Evils they have raised to make a shew of ill Government to the People which they second with an enumeration of the many services they have done the King in overcoming a great many of them though not all and in divers other things and say that though they had contracted a Debt to the Scots of 22000 l. and granted six Subsidies and a Bill of Pole-money worth six Subsidies more yet that God had so blessed the Endeavours of this Parliament that the Kingdom was a gainer by it and then follows the Catalogue of those good things they had done for the King and Kingdom For the Kingdom they had done they said these things They had abolished
for the reducing of Ireland the Parliament invited Men to bring in Mony by way of Adventure according to these Propositions First That two Millions and five hundred thousand Acres of Land in Ireland should be assigned to the Adventurers in this proportion For an Adventure of 200 l. 1000 Acres in Vlster 300 l. 1000 Acres in Conaught 450 l. 1000 Acres in Munster 600 l. 1000 Acres in Lemster All according to English Measure and consisting of Meadow arable and profitable Pasture Bogs Woods and Barren Mountains being cast in over and above Secondly A Revenue was reserv'd to the Crown from 1 d. to 3 d. on every Acre Thirdly That Commissions should be sent by the Parliament to erect Mannors settle Wastes and Commons maintain preaching Ministers to create Corporations and to regulate Plantations The rest of the Propositions concern only the times and manner of payment of the Sums subscribed by the Adventurers and to those Propositions His Majesty assented but to the Petition for the Militia His Majesty denied His Assent B. If He had not I should have thought it a great Wonder What did the Parliament after this A. They sent Him another Petition which was presented to Him when He was at Theobalds in his way to York wherein they tell him plainly That unless He be pleased to assure them by those Messengers them sent that He would speedily apply His Royal Assent to the satisfaction of their former Desires they shall be forc'd for the Safety of his Majesty and his Kingdoms to dispose of the Militia by the Authority of both Houses c. They Petition'd His Majesty also to let the Prince stay at St. James's or some other of His Majesties Houses near London They tell him also That the Power of Raising Ordering and Disposing of the Militia cannot be granted to any Corporation without the Authority and Consent of Parliament And those Parts of the Kingdom that have put themselves into a posture of Defence have done nothing therein but by direction of both Houses and what is justifiable by the Laws of this Kingdom B. What Answer made the King to this A. It was a putting of themselves into Arms and under Officers such as the Parliament should approve of Fourthly They Voted that His Majesty should be again desir'd that the Prince might continue about London Lastly They Voted a Declaration to be sent to His Majesty by both the Houses wherein they accuse His Majesty of a design of altering Religion though not directly Him but them that counsel'd Him whom they also accus'd of being the Inviters and Fomenters of the Scots War and Framers of the Rebellion in Ireland And upbraid the King again for accusing the Lord Kimbolton and the Five Members and of being privy to the purpose of bringing up His Army which was rais'd against the Scots to be employ'd against the Parliament To which His Majesty replied from New-market Whereupon it was Resolv'd by both Houses That in this Case of extream Danger and of His Majesties Refusal the Ordinance agreed upon by both Houses for the Militia doth oblige the People by the Fundamental Laws of this Kingdom And also that whosoever should execute any Power over the Militia by colour of any Commission of Lieutenancy without Consent of both Houses of Parliament shall be accounted a Disturber of the Peace of the Kingdom Whereupon His Majesty sent a Message to both Houses from Huntingdon Requiring Obedience to the Laws Established and Prohibiting all Subjects upon pretence of their Ordinance to Execute any thing concerning the Militia which is not by those Laws warranted Upon this the Parliament Vote a standing to their former Votes as also That when the Lords and Commons in Parliament which is the Supreme Court of Judicature in the Kingdom shall declare what the Law of the Land it to have this not only questioned but contradicted is a high Breach of the Priviledge of Parliament B. I thought that he that makes the Law ought to declare what the Law is for what is it else to make a Law but to declare what it is so that they have taken from the King not only the Militia but also the Legislative Power A. They have so But I make account the Legislative Power and indeed all Power possible is contain'd in the Power of the Militia After this they seize such Mony as was due to His Majesty upon the Bill of Tunnage and Poundage and upon the Bill of Subsidies that they might disable him every way they possibly could They sent Him also many other contumelious Messages and Petitions after His coming to York amongst which one was That whereas the Lord Admiral by indisposition of Body could not command the Fleet in Person He would be pleased to give Authority to the Earl of Warwick to supply his place when they knew the King had put Sir John Penington in it before B. To what End did the King entertain so many Petitions Messages Declarations and Remonstrances and vouchsafe His Answers to them when He could not choose but clearly see they were resolv'd to take from Him His Royal Power and consequently His Life For it could not stand with their safety to let either Him or His Issue live after they had done Him so great Injuries A. Besides this the Parliament had at the same time a Committee residing at York to spy what His Majesty did and to inform the Parliament thereof and also to hinder the King from gaining the People of that County to His Party so that when His Majesty was Courting the Gentlemen there the Committee was Instigating of the Yeomanry against Him to which also the Ministers did very much contribute so that the King lost His opportunity at York B. Why did not the King seize the Committee into His hands or drive them out of His Town A. I know not but I believe He knew the Parliament had a greater Party than He not only in Yorkshire but also in York Towards the End of April the King upon Petition of the People of Yorkshire to have the Magazine of Hull to remain still there for the greater security of the Northern Parts thought fit to take it into his own hands He had a little before appointed Governor of the Town the Earl of Newcastle but the Townsmen having been already corrupted by the Parliament refused to receive him but refus'd not to receive Sir John Hotham appointed to be Governor by the Parliament The King therefore coming before the Town Guarded only by a few of His own Servants and a few Gentlemen of the Country thereabouts was deny'd Entrance by Sir John Hotham that stood upon the Wall for which Act he presently caused Sir John Hotham to be Proclaim'd Traytor and sent a Message to the Parliament requiring Justice to be done upon the said Hotham and that the Town and Magazine might be delivered into His hands To which the Parliament made no Answer but instead thereof published another Declaration in
Tax upon the people of ninety thousand pound a Month for the maintenance of the Army B Was it not one of their Quarrels with the King that he had levied Money without the consent of the people in Parliament A. You may see by this what reason the Rump had to call it self a Parliament for the Taxes imposed by Parliament were always understood to be by the peoples consent and consequently legal To appease the Scots they sent Messengers with flattering Letters to keep them from ingaging for the present King but in vain for they would hear nothing from a House of Commons as they call'd it at Westminster without a King and Lords But they sent Commissioners to the King to let him know what they were doing for him for they were resolv'd to raise an Army of seventeen thousand Foot and six thousand Horse for themselves To relieve Ireland the Rump had resolv'd to send eleven Regiments thither out of the Army here in England This happened well for Cromwel for the Levelling Soldiers which were in every Regiment many and in some the major part finding that instead of dividing the Land at home they were to venture their Lives in Ireland flatly denied to go and one Regiment having cashier'd their Colonel about Salisbury was marching to joyn with three Regiments more of the same resolution but both the General and Cromwel falling upon them at Burford utterly defeated them and soon after reduced the whole Army to their obedience And thus another of the Impediments to Cromwel's Advancement was soon remov'd Thus done they came to Oxford and thence to London and at Oxford both the General and Cromwel were made Doctors of the Civil Law and at London â—easted and presented by the City B. Were they not first made Masters then Dâ—ctors A. They had made themselves Masters already both of the Laws and Parliament The Army being now obedient the Rump sent over those eleven Regiments into Ireland under the Command of Doctor Cromwel Entituled Governour of that Kingdom the Lord Fairfax being still General of all the Forces both here and there The Marquess now Duke of Ormond was the Kings Lieutenant of Ireland and the Rebels had made a Confederacy among themselves and those Confederates had made a kind of League with the Lieutenant wherein they agreed upon liberty given them in the exercise of their Religion to be faithful to and assist the King To these also were joyned some Forces raised by the Earls of Castlehaven and Clanriccard and my Lord Inchequin so that they were the greatest United Strength in the Island but there were among them a great many other Papists that would by no means subject themselves to Protestants and these were called the Nuncio's Party as the other were called the Confederate Party These Parties not agreeing and the Confederate Party having broken their Articles the Lord Lieutenant seeing them ready to besiege him in Dublin and not able to defend it to preserve the place for the Protestants surrenders it to the Parliament of England and came over to the King at this time when he was carried from place to place by the Army From England he went over to the Prince now King residing then at Paris But the Confederates affrighted with the news that the Rump was sending over an Army thither desir'd the Prince by Letters to send back my Lord of Ormond ingaging themselves to submit absolutely to the Kings Authority and to obey my Lord of Ormond as his Lieutenant And thereupon he was sent back This was about a year before the going over of Cromwel in which time by the Dissentions in Ireland between the Confederate Party and the Nuncio's Party and discontents about Command this otherwise sufficient Power effected nothing and was at last defeated August the second by a Salley out of Dublin which they were besieging Within a few days after arriv'd Cromwel who with extraordinary diligence and horrid Executions in less than a Twelve-month that he staid there subdued in a manner the whole Nation having kill'd or exterminated a great part of them and leaving his Son-in-law Ireton to subdue the rest But Ireton died there before the business was quite done of the Plague This was one step more towards Cromwel's Exaltation to the Throne B. What a miserable condition was Ireland reduced to by the Learning of the Roman as well as England was by the Learning of the Presbyterian Clergy A. In the latter end of the preceeding year the King was come from Paris to the Hague and shortly after came thither from the Rump their Agent Dorisâ—aus Doctor of the Civil Law who had been imployed in the drawing of the Charge against the late King But the first night he came as he was at Supper a Company of Cavaliers near a dozen entred his Chamber kill'd him and got away Not long after also their Agent at Madrid one Ascham that had written in defence of his Masters was kill'd in the same manner About this tire came out two Books one written by Salmasius a Presbyterian against the Murder of the King another written by Milton an Independent in England in Answer to it B. I have seen them both they are very good Laâ—iâ—â— both and hardly to be judged which is better and both very ill reasoning and hardly to be judged which is worst like two Declamations Pro and Con for Exercise only in a Rhetorick School by one and the same man So like is a Presbyterian to an Independent A. In this year the Rump did not much at home save that in the beginning they made England a Free State by an Act that runs thus Be it Enacted and Declared by this present Parliament and by the Authority thereof That the people of England and all the Dominions and Territories thereunto belonging are and shall be and are hereby constituted made and declared a Common-wealth and Free State c. B. What did they mean by a Free State and Common-wealth were the people no longer to be subject to Laws They could not mean that for the Parliament meant to Govern them by their own Laws and punish such as broke them Did they mean that England should not be subject to any foreign Kingdom or Common-wealth That needed not be Enacted seeing there was no King nor People pretended to be their Masters What did they mean then A. They meant that neither this King nor any King nor any single person but only that they themselves would be the Peoples Masters and would have set it down in those plain words if the people could have been cozen'd with words intelligible as easily as with words not intelligible After this they gave one another Money and Estates out of the Lands and Goods of the Loyal Party They Enacted also an Engagement to be taken by every man in these words Tou shall promise to be true and faithful to the Common-wealth of England as it is now established without King or House of Lords They
that point you will be better informed in the pursuit of this Narration B. But I desire to know first the several grounds of the Pretences both of the Pope and of the Presbyterians by which they claim a Right to govern us as they do in chief and after that from whence and when crept in the Pretences of that Long Parliament for a Democrasie A. As for the Papists they challenge this Right from a Text in Deut. 7. and other like Texts according to the Old Latin Translation in these words And he that out of Pride shall refuse to obey the Commandment of that Priest which shall at that time Minister before the Lord thy God that man shall by the Sentence of the Judge be put to Death And because the Jews were the people of God then so is all Christendom the People of God now they infer from thence that the Pope whom they pretend to be High Priest of all Christian People ought also to be obeyed in all his Decrees by all Christians upon pain of Death Again whereas in the New Testament Christ saith all Power is given unto me in Heaven and in Earth go therefore and teach all Nations and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost and teach them to observe all those things that I have commanded you from thence they infer that the Command of the Apostles was to be obeyed and by consequence the Nations were bound to be governed by them and especially by the Prince of the Apostles St. Peter and by his Successors the Popes of Rome B. For the Text in the Old Testament I do not see how the Commandment of God to the Jews to obey their Priests can be interpreted to have the like force in the Case of the other Nations Christian more then upon Nations Unchristian For all the World are Gods People unless we also grant that a King cannot of an Infidel be made Christian without making himself subject to the Laws of that Apostle of Priest or Minister that shall convert him The Jews were a peculiar people of God a Sacerdotal Kingdom and bound to no other Law but what first Moses and afterwards every High Priest did go and receive immediately from the Mouth of God in Mount Sinai in the Tabernacle of the Ark and in the Sanctum Sanctorum of the Temple And for the Text in St. Matthew I know the words in the Gospel are not Go teach but Go and make Disciples and that there is a great difference between a Subject and a Disciple and between teaching and commanding and if such Texts as these must be so interpreted why do not Christian Kings lay down their Titles of Majesty and Soveraignty and call themselves the Popes Lieutenants But the Doctors of the Romish Church seem to decline that Title of Absolute Power in their distinction of Power Spiritual and Temporal but this Distinction I do not vell understand A. By Spiritual Power they mean the Power to determine Points of Faith and to be Judges in the Inner Court of Conscience of Moral Duties and of a Power to punish those men that obey not their Precepts by Ecclesiastical Censure that is by Excommunication and this Power they say the Pope hath immediately from Christ without dependance upon any King or Sovereign Assemblies whose Subjects they be that stand Excommunicate But for the Power Temporal which consists in judging and punishing those actions that are done against the Civil Law they say they do not pretend to it directly but onely indirectly that is to say as far forth as such actions tend to the hinderance or advancement of Religion in ordine ad spiritualia B. What Power then is left to Kings and other Civil Sovereigns which the Pope may not pretend to be in ordine ad Spiritualia A. None or very little and this Power the Pope not onely pretends to in all Christendom but some of his Bishops also in their several Diocesses jure Divino that is immediately from Christ without deriving it from the Pope B. But what if a man refuse Obedience to this pretended Power of the Pope and his Bishops what harm can Excommunication do him especially if he be a Subject of another Sovereign A. Very great harm for by the Popes or Bishops signification of it to the Civil Power he shall be punished sufficiently B. He were in an ill case then that adventured to write or speak in defence of the Civil Power that must be pun shed by him whose Rights he defended like Uzza that was slain because he Would needs unbidden put forth his hand to keep the Ark from falling But what if a whole Nation should revolt from the Pope at once what effect could Excommunication have upon the Nation A. Why they should have no more Mass said by any of the Pope's Priests Besides the Pope would have no more to with them but cast them off and so they would be in the same case as if a Nation should be cast by their King and left to be governed by themselves or whom they would B. This would not so much be taken for a punishment to the People as to the King and therefore when a Pope Excommunicates a whole Nation me-thinks he rather Excommunicates himself than them But I pray you tell me what were the Rights the Pope pretended to in Kingdoms of other Princes A. First and exemption of all Priests Friers and Monks in Criminal Causes from the Cognizance of Civil Judges Secondly Collation of Benefices on whom he pleased Native or Stranger and Exaction of Tenths Fruits and other Payments Thirdly Appeals to Rome in all Causes where the Church could pretend to be concern'd Fourthly To be the Supreme Judge concerning the Lawfulness of Marriage i e. concerning the Hereditary Succession of Kings and to have the Cognizance of all Causes concerning Adultery and Fornication B. Good a Monopoly of Women A. Fifthly a power of absolving Subjects of their Duties and of their Oaths of Fidelity to their Lawful Sovereigns when the Pope should think fit for the extirpation of Heresie B. This power of absolving Subjects of their obedience as also that other of being Judges of Manners and Doctrine is as absolute a Sovereignty as if possible to be and consequently there must be two Kingdoms in one and the same Nation and so no man be able to know which of his Masters he must obey A. For my part I should rather obey that Master that had the Right of making Laws and of inflicting Punishments than him that pretendeth onely to a right of making Canons that is to say Rules and no Right of Co-action or otherwise Punishing but by Excommunication B. But the Pope pretends also that his Canons are Laws and for punishing can there be a greater than Excommunication supposing it true as the Pope saith it is that he that dies Excommunicate is damn'd which supposition it seems you believe not else you
would rather have chosen to obey the Pope that could cast your Body and Soul into Hell than the King that can onely kill the Body A. You say true for it were very uncharitable in me to believe that all Englishmen except a few Papists that have been born and called Hereticks ever since the Reformation of Religion in England should be damn'd B. But for those that die Excommunicate in the Church of England at this day do you not think them also damn'd and he that is Excommunicate for disobedience to the King's Law either Spiritual or Temporal is Excommunicate for sin and therefore if he die Excommunicate and without desire of reconciliation he dies impenitent you see what follows But to die in disobedience to the Precepts and Doctrine of those men that have no Authority or Jurisdiction over us is quite another case and bringeth no such danger with it B. But what is this Heresie which the Church of Rome so cruelly persecutes as to depose Kings that do not when they are bidden turn all Hereticks out of their Dominions A. Heresie is a Word which when it is used without passion signifies a private Opinion so the different Sect of the old Philosophers Academians Peripateticks Epicureans Stoicks c. were called Heresie But in the Christian Church there was in the signification of that word comprehended a sinful opposition to him that was chief Judge of Doctrines in order to the Salvation of mens Souls and consequently Heresie may be said to bear the same relation to the Power Spiritual that Rebellion doth to the Power Temporal and is suitably to be persecuted by him that will preserve a Power Spiritual and dominion over mens Consciences B. It would be very well because we are all of us permitted to read the holy Scriptures and bound to make them the Rule of our actions both publick and private that Heresie were by some Law defined and the particular Opinions set forth for which a man were to be condemned and punished as a Heretick for else not onely men of mean capacity but even the wisest and devoutest Christian may fall into Heresie without any will to oppose the Church for the Scriptures are hard and the interpretations different of different men A. The meaning of the word Heresie is by Law declared in Act of Parliament in the First Year of Queen Elizabeth wherein it is ordained that the Persons who had by the Queens Letters Patents the Authority Spiritual meaning the High Commission shall not have Authority to Adjudge any matter or cause to be Heresie but only such as heretofore have been Adjudged to be Heresie by the Authority of the Canonical Scriptures or by the First 4 General Councils or by any other General Council where the same was declared Heresie by the express and plain words of the said Canonical Scriptures or such as hereafter shall be adjudged Heresie by the High Court of Parliament of this Realm with the assent of the Clergy in their Convocation B. It seems therefore if there arise any new Error that hath not been yet declared Heresie and many such may arise it cannot be Judged Heresie without a Parliament for how foul soever the error be it cannot have been declared Heresie neither in the Scriptures nor in the Councils because it was never before heard of and consequently there can be no Error unless it fall within the compass of Blasphemy against God or Treason against the King for which a man can in Equity be punished Besides who can tell what is declared by the Scripture which every man is allowed to read and interpret to hemself nay more what Protestant either of the Laity or Clergy if every General Council can be a competent Judge of Heresie is not already condemned for divers Councils have declar'd a great many of our Doctrines to be Heresie as they pretend upon the Authority of the Scriptures A. What are those points that the first four General Counsels have declared Heresie B. The first General Councel held at Nicaea declared all to be Heresie which was contrary to the Nicene Creed Upon occasion of the Heresie of Arrius which was the denying the Divinity of Christ the Second General Councel held at Constantinople declar'd Heresie the Doctrine of Macedonius which was that the Holy Ghost was created The Third Councel assembled at Ephesius condemned the Doctrine of Nestorius that there were two persons in Christ The Fourth held at Calcedon condemned the Error of Emtyches that there was but one nature in Christ I know of no other Points condemned in these four Councels but such as concern Church-Government or the same Doctrines taught by other Men in other words And these Councels were all called by the Emperors and by them their Decrees confirmed at the Petition of the Councels themselves A. I see by this that both the Calling of the Council and the confirmation of their Doctrine and Church-Government had no obligatory force but from the Authority of the Emperor how comes it then to pass that they take upon them now a Legislative Power and say their Canons are Laws That Text all Power is given to me in Heaven and Earth had the same force then as it hath now and conferred a Legislative Power on the Councils not only over Christian men but over all Nations in the world B. They say no for the Power they pretend to is derived from this that when a King was converted from Gentilism to Christianity he did by that very Submission to the Bishop that converted him submit to the Bishops Government and became one of his sheep which Right therefore he could not have over any Nation that was not Christian A. Did Silvester which was Pope of Rome in the time of Constantine the Great converted by him tell the Emperor his New Disciple before hand that if he became a Christian he must become the Popes Subject B. I believe not for it is likely enough if he had told him so plainly or but made him suspect it he would either have been not Christian at all or but a Counterfeit one A. But if he did not tell him so and that plainly it was foul play not only in a Priest but in any Christian And for this Derivation of their Right from the Emperors consent it proceeds only from this that they dare not challenge a Legislative power nor call their Canons Laws in any Kingdom in Christendom farther than the Kings make them so But in Peru when Atabalipa was King the Fryer told him that Christ being King of all the World had given the diposing of all the Kingdoms there to the Pope And that the Pope had given Peru to the Roman Emperor Charles the 5. and required Atabalipa to resign it and for refusing it seised upon his Person by the Spanish Army there present and murdered him You see by this how much they claim when they have power to make it good B. When began the Popes to take this
Not Guilty He has divided the Duty of Man into three great Branches His Duty to God to Himself and to his Neighbour In his Duty to God he puts the acknowledgment of him in his Essence and his Attributes and in believing of his Word his Attributes are Omnipotence Omniscience Infiniteness Justice Truth Mercy and all the rest that are found in Scripture Which of these did not those Seditious Preachers acknowledge equally with the best of Christians The Word of God are the Books of holy Scripture received for Can nical in England B. They receive the World of God but 't is according to their own interpretation A. According to whose interpretation was it received by the Bishops and the rest of the Loyal Party but their own He puts for another Duty Obedience and Submission to God's Will Did any of them nay did any man living do any thing at any time against God's Will B. By God's Will I suppose he means there his revealed Will that is to say his Commandments which I am sure they did most horribly break both by their Preaching and otherwise A. As for their Actions there is no doubt but all men are guilty enough if God deal severely with them to be damned and for their Preaching they will say they thought it agreeable to God's revealed Will in the Scriptures if they thought if so it was not disobedience but error and how can any man prove they thought otherwise B. Hypocrisie hath this great prerogative above other sins that it cannot be accused A. Another Duty he sets down is to honour him in his House that is the Church in his Possessions in his Day in his Word and Sacraments B. They perform this Duty I think as well as any other Ministers I mean the Loyal Party and the Presbyterians have always had an equal care to have God's House free from prophanation to have Tithes duly paid to have the Sabbath day kept holy the Word preached and the Lord's Supper and Baptism duly administred But it is not the keeping of the Feasts and of the Fasts one of those Duties that belong to the Honour of God if it be the Presbyterians fail in that A. Why so they kept some Holidays and they had Feasts among themselves though not upon the same Days that the Church ordains but when they thought fit as when it pleased God to give the King any notable Victory and they govern'd themselves in this point by the holy Scriptures as they pretend to be and can prove they did not believe so B. Let us pass over all other Duties and come to that Duty which we owe to the King and consider whether the Doctrine taught by these Divines which adhered to the King be such in that point as may justifie the Presbyterians that incited the People to Rebellion for that 's the thing you call in question A. Concerning our Duty to our Rulers he hath these words An obedience we must pay either Active or Passive the Active in the case of all Lawful Commands that is when ever the Magistrate commands something which is not contrary to some command of God we are then bound to act according to that command of the Magistrate to do the thing he requires but when he enjoyns any thing contrary to what God hath commanded we are not then to pay him this Active obedience we may nay we must refuse thus to act yet here we must be very well assur'd that the thing is so contrary and not pretend Conscience for a cloak of stubbornness we are in that case to obey God rather than men But even this is a season for the Passive obedience we must patiently suffer what he inflicts on us for such refusal and not to secure our selves rise up against him B. What is there in this to give colour to the late Rebellion A. They will say they did it in obedience to God inasmuch as they did believe it was according to the Scripture out of which they will bring perhaps examples of David and his Adherents that resisted King Saul and of the Prophets afterwards that vehemently from time to time preached against the Idolatrous Kings of Israel and Judah Saul was their Lawful King and yet they paid him neither Active nor Passive obedience for they did put themselves into a posture of defence against him though David himself spared his person and so did the Presbyterians put into their Commission to their General that they should spare the King's Person Besides you cannot doubt but that they who in the Pulpit did animate the People to take Arms in defence of the then Parliament alledged Scripture that is the Word of God for it If it be lawful then for Subjects to resist the King when he commands any thing against the Scripture that is contrary to the command of God and to be Judge of the meaning of the Scripture it is impossible that the life of any King or the peace of any Christian Kingdom can be long secure It is this Doctrine that Divides a Kingdom within it self whatsoever the men be Loyal or Rebels that Write or Preach it publickly And thus you see that if those seditious Ministers be tried by this Doctrine they will come off well enough B. I see it and wonder at People that having never spoken with God Almighty nor knowing one more than another what he hath said when the Laws and the Preacher disagree should so keenly follow the Minister for the most part an ignorant though a ready tongu'd Scholar rather than the Laws that were made by the King with the consent of the Peers and the Commons of the Land A. Let us examine his words a little nearer first concerning Passive obedience When a Thief hath broken the Laws and according to the Law is therefore executed can any man understand that this suffering of his is an obedience to the Law Every Law is a Command to do or to forbear neither of these is fulfilled by suffering If any suffering can be called obedience it must be such as is voluntary for no voluntary action can be counted a submission to the Law He that means that his suffering should be taken for obedience must not onely not resist but also flie nor hide himself to avoid his punishment And who is there among them that discourses of Passive obedience when his life is in extreme danger that will voluntarily present himself to the Officers of Justice Do not we see that all men when they are led to Execution are both bound and guarded and would break loose if they could and get away such is their Passive obedience Christ saith The Scribes and Pharisees sate in Moses's chair all therefore whatsoever they bid you observe that observe and do Matth. 23.3 which is a doing an an Active obedience and yet the Scribes and Pharisees appear not by the Scriptures to have been such godly men as never to command any thing against the revealed will of God
B. Must Tyrants also be obeyed in every thing actively or is there nothing wherein a Lawful Kings commands may be disobeyed what if he should command me with my own hands to execute my Father in case he should be condemned to die by the Law A. This is a case that need not be put we never have read or heard of any King or Tyrant so inhumane as to command it if any did we are to consider whether that command were one of his Laws for by disobeying Kings we mean disobeying his Laws those his Laws that were made before they were applied to any particular person For the King though as a Father of Children and a Master of domestick Secrets yet commands the People in general never but by a precedent Law and as a Publick not a Natural Person and if such a Command as you speak of were contrived into a general Law which never was nor never will be you were bound to obey it unless you depart the Kingdom after the publication of the-Law and before the condemnation of your Father B. Your Author says farther in refusing active obedience to the King that commanded any thing contrary to God's Law we must be very well assured that the thing is so contrary I would fain know-how is it possible to be assured A. I think you do not believe that any of those Refusers do immediately from God's own mouth receive any Command contrary to the Command of the King who is God's Lieutenant nor any other way than you and I do that is to say than by the Scriptures And because men do for the most part rather draw the Scriptures to their own sense than follow the true sense of the Scripture there is no other way to know certainly and in all cases what God commands or forbids us to do but by the sentence of him or them that are constituted by the King to determine the sense of the Scriptures upon hearing of the particular Case of Conscience which is in question and they that are so constituted are easily known in all Christian Common-wealths whether they be Bishops or Ministers or Assemblies that govern the Church under him or them that have the Sovereign Power B. Some doubts may be raised from this that you now say for if men be to learn their Duty from the Sentence which other men shall give concerning the meaning of the Scriptures and not from their own Interpretation I understand not to what end they were Translated into English and every man not onely permitted but also exhorted to read them for what could that produce but diversity of Opinion and consequently as man's nature is Disputation breach of Charity Disobedience and at last Rebellion Again since the Scriptures were allowed to be read in English why were not the Translations such as might make all that 's read understood even by mean capacities Did not the Jews such as could read understand their Law in the Jewish Language as well as we do our Statute Laws in English And as for such places of the Scripture as had nothing of the Nature of a Law it was nothing to the Duty of the Jews whether they were understood or not seeing nothing is punishable but the transgression of some Law The same question I may ask concerning the New Testament for I believe that those men to whom the Original Language was natural did understand sufficiently what Commands and Counsels were given them by our Saviour and his Apostles and his immediate Disciples Again how will you answer that question which was put by St. Peter and St. John Acts 4.19 when by Ananias the High-priest and others of the Council of Jerusalem they were forbidden any more to teach in the Name of Jesus Whether is it right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God A. The case is not the same Peter and John had seen and daily conversed with our Saviour and by the Miracles he wrought did know he was God and consequently knew certainly that their disobedience to the High Priest's present command was just Can any Minister now say that he hath immediately from God's own mouth received a Command to disobey the King or know otherwise than by the Scripture that any Command of the King that hath the form and nature of a Law is against the Law of God which in divers places he directly and evidently commandeth to obey him in all things The Text you cite doth not tell us that a Minister's Authority rather than a Christian King's shall decide the questions that arise from the different Interpretations of the Scripture And therefore where the King is Head of the Church and by consequence to omit that the Scripture it self was not received but by the Authority of Kings and States chief Judge of the Rectitude of all Interpretations of the Scripture to obey the King's Laws and publick Edicts is not to disobey and obey God A Minister ought not to think that his skill in the Latin Greek or Hebrew Tongues if he have any gives him a triviledge to impose upon all his fellow-subjects his own sense or what he pretends to be his sense of every obscure place of Scripture nor ought he as often as he hath found some fine Interpretation not before thought on by others to think he had it by Inspiration as fine as he thinks it is not false and then all his stubbornness and contumacy towards the King and his Laws is nothing but pride of heart and ambâ—tion or else imposture And whereas you think it needless or perhaps hurtful to have the Scriptures in English I am of another mind There are so many places of Scripture easily to be understood that teach both true Faith and good Morality and that as fully as it is necessary to Salvation of which no Seducer is able to dispose the mind of any ordinary Readers that the reading of them is so profitable as not to be forbidden without great damage to them and the Common-wealth B. All that is required both in Faith and Manners for Man's Salvation is I confess set down in Scripture as plainly as can be Children obey your parents in all things Servants obey your masters in all things Let all men be subject to the higher powers whether it be the King or those that are sent by him Love God with all your soul and your neighbour as your self are words of the Scripture which are well enough understood but neither Children nor the greatest part of Men do understand why it is their duty so to do they see not that the safety of the Common-wealth and consequently their own depends upon the doing of it Every man by Nature without Discipline does in all his actions look upon as far as he can see the benefit that shall redound to himself by his obedience he reads that covetousness is the root of all evil but he thinks and sometimes finds it is the root of his Estate And
seditious Doctrine of the Presbyterians hath been stuck so hard in the Peoples heads and memories I cannot say into their hearts for they understood nothing in it but that they may lawfully rebel That I fear the Common-wealth will never be cured A. The two great Vertues that were severally in Henry the 7. Henry the 8. When they shall be Joyntly in one King will easily cure it that of Henry the 7. was without much noise of the people to fill his Coffers that of Henry the 8. was an early severity but this without the former cannot be exercised B. This that you say looks methinks like an advice to the King to let them alone till he have gotten ready money enough to levy and maintain a sufficient Army and then to fall on them and destroy them A. God forbid that so horrible Unchristian and unhumain design should ever enter into the Kings heart I would have him have money enough readily to raise an Army able to suppress any Rebellion and to take from the Enemies all hope of success that they may nâ—t dare to trouble him in the Reformation of the Universities but to put none to death without the Actual committing such Crimes as are already made Capital by the Laws the Core of Rebellion as you have seen by this and read of other Rebellions are the Universities which nevertheless are not to be cast away but to be better disciplin'd that is to say that the Politicks there taught be made to be as true Politicks should be such as are fit to make men know that it is their duty to obey all Laws whatsoever that shall be by the Authority of the King enacted till by the same Authority they shall be repeal'd such as are fit to make men understand that the Civil Laws are Gods Laws as they that make them and to make men know that the people and the Church are one thing and have but one Head the King and that no man has Title to govern under him that has it not from him that the King owes his Crown to Cod only and to no man Ecclesiastick or other and that the Religion they teach there be a quiet waiting for the coming again of blessed Saviour and in the mean time a Resolution to obey the Kings Laws which are also Gods Laws to injure no man to be in Charity with all men to cherish the Poor and Sick and to live Soberly and free from Scandal without mingling our Religion with points of Natural Phylosophy as freedom of Will Incorporeal substance Everlasting News Ubiquities Hypostases Which the people understand not nor will ever care for when the Universities shall be thus disciplined there will come out of them from time to time well Principled Preachers and they that are ill principled from time to time fall away B. I think it a very good course and perhaps the only one that can make our peace amongst our selves constant for if men know not their Duty what is there that can force them to obey they Laws An Army you 'l say but what shall force the Army were not the Train'd Bands an Army Were they not the Janisaries that not long ago slew Osman in his own Palace at Constantinople I am therefore of your opinion both that men may be brought to a love of Obedience by Preachers and Gentlemen that imbibe good Principles in their Youth at the Universities and also that we never shall have a lasting peace till the Universites themselves be in such manney as you have said reformed and the Ministers know they have no Authority but what the supream Civil Power gives them â—nd â—â—e Nobility and Gentry know that the Liberty of a State is not an Exemption from the Laws of their own Countrey whether made by an Assembly or by a Monarchy but an Exemption from the constraint and Insolence of their Neighbours And now I am satisfied in this point I will bring you back to the place from whence my Curiosity drew you to this long digression We were upon the point of Ship-money one of those grievances which the Parliament exclaimed against as Tyranny and Arbitrary Government thereby to single out as you called it the King from his Subjects and to make a party against him when they should need it And now you may proceed if it please you to such other Artifices as they used to the same purpose A. I think it were better to give over here our discourse of his business and refer it to some other day that you shall think fit B. Content that day I believe is not far off A. You are welcome yet if you had stayed somewhat longer My Money would have been so much the better provided for you B Nay I pray you give me now what you have about you for the rest I am content to take what time you please A. After the Parliament had made the people believe that the Extorting of Ship-money was unlawful and the people thereby inclined to think it Tyrannical in the next place to increase their disaffection to his Majesty They accused him of a purpose to Introduce and Authorize the Roman Religion in this Kingdom Than which nothing was more hateful to the people not because it was Erroneous which they had neither Learning nor Judgment enough to examine but because they had been used to heat it inveyed against in the Sermons and Discourses of the Preachers whom they trusted to and this was indeed the most effectual calumny to alienate the peoples affections from him that could possibly be invented the colour they had for this stand was First that there was one Rosseti Resident at and a little before the time from the Pope with the Queen And one Mr. George Con-secratary to the Cardinal Francisco Barbâ—rini Nephew to Pope Urban the Eighth sent over under favour and protection of the Queen as was conceived to draw as many persons of quality about the Court as he should be able to reconcile themselves to the Church of Rome with what success I cannot tell but it is likely he gained some especially of the weaker Sex If I may say they were gained by him when not his Arguments but hope of favour from the Queen in all probability prevailed upon them B. In such a Conjuncture as that was it had perhaps been better they had not been sent A. There wâ—s exception also taken at a Covent of Friers Capucines in Sommerset-house though allowed by the Articles of Marriage and it was reported that the Jescites also were shortly after to be allowed a Covent in Clerkenwel and in the mean time the principal Secretary Sir Francis Windebank was accused for having by his Warrant set at liberty some English Jesuites that had been taken and Imprisoned for returning into England after Banishment contrary to the Statute which had made it Capital also the great resort of English Catholicks to the Queens Chappel gave them Colour to blame the Queen her self not only for
believe oppose the Lower House B. But why were the Lower House so earnest against them A. Because they meant to make use of their Tenants and with pretended Sanctity to make the King and his Party odious to the People by whose help they were to set up Democracy and Depose the King or to let him have the Title only so long as he should Act for their purposes But not only the Parliament but in a manner all the People of England were their Enemies upon the account of their behaviour as being they said too imperious This was all that was colourable laid to their charge the main of the pulling them down was the Envy of the Presbyterians that incensed the People against them and against Episcopacy it self B. How would the Presbyterians have the Church to be govern'd A. By National and Provincial Synods B. Is not this to make the National Assembly an Arch-Bishop and the Provincial Assemblies so many Bishops A. Yes but every Minister shall have the delight of sharing the Government and consequently of being able to be reveng'd on them that do not admire their Learning and help to fill their purses and win to their service them that do B. 'T is a hard Case that there should be two Factions to trouble the Common-wealth without any Interest of their own other than every particular man may have and that their quarrels should be only about Opinions that is about who has the most Learning as if their Learning ought to be the Rule of Governing the whole World What is it they are Learned in is it Politicks and Rules of State I know it is called Divinity but I hear almost nothing preacht but matter of Philosophy for Religion in it self admits of no Controversie 'T is a Law of the Kingdom and ought not to be disputed I do not think they pretend to speak with God and know his will by any other way than reading the Scriptures which we also do A. Yes some of them do and give themselves out for Prophets by extraordinary Inspiration but the rest pretend only for their Advancement to Benefices and Charge of Souls a greater skill in the Scriptures than other men have by reason of their breeding in the Universities and knowledge there gotten of the Latin Tongue and some also of the Greek and Hebrew Tongues wherein the Scriptures were written besides their knowledge of Natural Philosophy which is there publickly taught B. As for the Latin Greek and Hebrew it was once to the Detection of the Roman Fraud and to the Ejection of the Romish Power very profitable or rather necessary But now that is done and we have the Scripture in English and Preaching in English I see no great need of Latin Greek and Hebrew I should think my self better qualified by under standing well the Languages of our Neighbours French Dutch and Italian I think it was never seen in the world before the Power of Popes was setup that Philosophy was much conducing to power in a Commonwealth A. But Philosophy together with Divinity hath very much conduced to the Advancement of the Professors thereof to places of the greatest Authority next to the Authority of Kings themselves in most of the Antient Kingdoms of the world as is manifestly to be seen in the History of those times B. I pray you cite me some of the Authors and places A. First what were the Druids of old time in Britany and France what Authority these had you may see in Caesar Strabo and others and especially in Diodorus Siculus the greatest Antiquary perhaps that ever was who speaking of the Druids which he calls Sarovides in France saith thus There be also amongst them certain Philosophers and Theologians that are exceedingly honoured whom they also use as Prophets These men by their skill in Augury and Inspection into the Bowels of Beasts sacrificed foretel what is to come and have the multitude in obedience to them and a little after It is a custom amongst them that no man may sacrifice without a Philosopher because say they men ought not to present their Thanks to the Gods but by them that know the Divine Nature and are as it were of the same language with them and that all good things ought by such as these to be prayed for B. I can hardly believe that those Druids were very skilful either in Natural Philosophy or Moral A. Nor I for they held and taught the Transmigration of Souls from one Body to another as did Pythagoras which Opinion whether they took from him or he from them I cannot tell What were the Magi in Persia but Philosophers and Astrologers You know how they came to find our Saviour by the Conduct of a Star either from Persia it self or from some Country more Eastward than Judea were not these in great Authority in their Country And are they not in most part of Christendom thought to have been Kings Aegypt hath been thought by many the most Antient Kingdom and Nation of the world and their Priests had the greatest power in Civil Affairs that any Subject ever had in any Nation And what were they but Philosophers and Divines Concerning whom the same Diodorus Siculus saies thus The whole Country of Egypt being divided into three parts the Body of the Priests have One as being of most credit with the people both for their Devotions towards the Gods and also for their Understanding gotten by Education and presently after for generally those men in the greatest Affairs of all the King's Councellors partly Executing and partly Informirg and Advising foretelling him also by their skill in Astrology and Art in the Inspection of Sacrifices the things that are to come and reading to him out of their Holy Books such of the Actions there recorded as are profitable for him to know 'T is not there as in Greece one man or one woman that has thé Priesthood but they are many that attend the Honours and Sacrifices of the Gods and leave the same Imployment to their posterity which next to the King have the greatest Power and Authority Concerning the Judicature amongst the Aegyptians he saith thus From out of the most eminent Cities Hieropolis Thebes and Memphis they chuse Judges which are Council not inferiour to that of Areopagus in Athens or that of the Senate in Lacedoemon when they are met being in number thirty they chuse one from among themselves to be Chief Justice and the City whereof he is sendeth another in his place This Chief Justice wore about his neck hung in a gold Chain a Jewel of precious Stones the name of which Jewel was Truth which when the Chief Justice had put on then began the Pleading c. And when the Judges had agreed on the Sentence then did the Chief Justice put this Jewel of Truth on one of the Pleas. You see now what power was acquired in Civil matters by the conjuncture of Philosophy and Divinity Let us come now to the
which they omitted nothing of their former Slanders against His Majesties Government but inserted certain Propositions declarative of their own pretended Right viz. I. That whatsoever they declare to be Law ought not to be questioned by the King II. That no Precedent can be Limits to bound their Proceedings III. That a Parliament for the Public Good may dispose of any thing wherein the King or Subject hath a Right and that they without the King are this Parliament and the Judge of this Public Good and that the King's consent is not necessary IV. That no Member of either House ought to be troubled for Treason Felony or any other Crime unless the Cause he first brought before the Paliament that they may judge of the Fact and give leave to proceed if they see Cause V. That the Sovereign Power resides in both Houses and that the King ought to have no Negative Voice VI. That the Levying of Forces against the Personal Commands of the King though accompanied with his presence is not Levying War against the King but the Levying of War against his Politic Person viz. his Laws c. VII That Treason cannot be committed against his Person otherwise than as he is intrusted with the Kingdom and discharges that Trust and that they have a Power to judge whether he hath discharged his Trust or not VIII That they may dispose of the King when they will B. This is plain-dealing and without hypocrisie Could the City of London swallow this A. Yes and more too if need be London you know has a great Belly but no palate nor taste of Right and Wrong In the Parliament Roll of Henry IV. amongst the Articles of the Oath the King at his Coronation took there is one runs thus Concedes Justas Leges Consuetudines esse tenendas promiâ—tes per te eas esse protegendas ad honorem Dei corroborandas quas Vulgus elegerit Which the Parliament urged for their Legislative Authority and therefore interpret quas Vulgus elegerit which the People shall choose as if the King should swear to protect and corroborate Laws before they were made whether they be Good or Bad whereas the words signifie no more but that he shall protect and corroborate such Laws as they have chosen that is to say the Acts of Parliament then in being And in the Records of the Exchequer it is thus Will yea grant to hold and keep the Laws and rightful Customs which the Commonalty of this your Kingdom have And will you defend and uphold them c And this was the Answer His Majesty made to that Point B. I think His Answer very full and clear but if the words were to be interpreted in the other sence yet I see no reason why the King should be bound to swear to them for Henry IV. came to the Crown by the Votes of a Parliament not much inferior in wickedness to this Long Parliament that Deposed and Murdered their Lawful King saving that it was not the Parliament it self but the Usurper that murdered King Richard II. A. About a week after in the beginning of May the Parliament sent the King another Paper which they stil'd The Humble Petition and Advice of both Houses Containing Nineteen Propositions which when you shall hear you shall be able to judge what Power they meant to leave to the King more than to any of His Subjects The first of them is this I. That the Lords and other of His Majesties Privy Council and all great Officers of State both at home and abroad be put from their Imployments and from his Council save only such as should be approved of by both Houses of Parliament and none put into their places but by approbation of the said Houses And that all Privy Counsellors take an Oath for the due Execution of their places in such form as shall be agreed upon by the said Houses II. That the great Affairs of the Kingdom be Debated Resolv'd and Transacted only in Parliament and such as shall presume to do any thing to the contrary to be reserved to the Censure of the Parliament and such other Matters of State as are proper for His Majesties Privy Council shall be Debated and Concluded by such as shall from time to time be chosen for that place by both Houses of Parliament And that no Publick Act concerning the Affairs of the Kingdom which are proper for his Privy Council be esteemed valid as proceeding from the Royal Authority unless it be done by the Advice and Consent of the Major part of the Council attested under their Hands and that the Council be not more than 25 nor less than 15 and that when a Counsellors place falls it shall not be supplied without the assent of the Major part of the Council and that such choice also shall be void if the next Parliament after confirm it not III. That the Lord High Steward of England Lord High Constable Lord Chancellor or Lord Keeper of the Great Seal Lord Treasurer Lord Privy Seal Earl Marshal Lord Admiral Warden of the Cinque Ports chief Governor of Ireland Chancellor of the Exchequer Master of the Wards Secretaries of State Two Chief Justices and Chief Baron be always chosen with the Approbation of both Houses of Parliament and in the Intervals of Parliament by the Major part of the Privy Council IV. That the Government of the King's Children shall he committed to such as both Houses shall approve of and in the Intervals of Parliament such as the Privy Council shall approve of that the Servants then about them against whom the Houses have just exception should be remov'd V. That no Marriage be concluded or treated of for any of the King's Children without consent of Parliament VI. That the Laws in force against the Jesuits Priests and Popish Recusants be strictly put in execution VII That the Votes of Popish Lords in the House of Peers be taken away and that a Bill be passed for the Education of the Children of Papists in the Protestant Religion VIII That the King will be pleas'd to reform the Church-Government and Liturgy in such manner as both Houses of Parliament shall advise IX That he would be pleased to rest satisfied with that course the Lords and Commons have appointed for ordering the Militia and recall his Declarations and Proclamations against it X. That such Members as have been put out of any Place or Office since this Parliament began may be restor'd or have satisfaction XI That all Privy Counsellors and Judges take an Oath the Form whereof shall be agreed on and setled by Act of Parliament for the maintaining the Petition of Right and of certain Statutes made by the Parliament XII That all the Judges and Officers placed by Approbation of both Houses of Parliament may hold their places quamdiu benè se gesserint XIII That the Justice of Parliament may pass upon all Delinquents whether they be within the Kingdom or fled out of it
for the Militia of the Parliament was my Lord Fairfax My Lord of Newcastle took from the Parliament Tadcaster in which were a great part of the Parliaments Forces for that County and had made himself in a manner Master of all the North. About this time that is to say in February the Queen landed at Burlington and was conducted by my Lord of Newcastle and the Marquis of Montross to York and not long after to the King Divers other little Advantages besides these had the King's Party of the Parliaments in the North. There hapned also between the Militia of the Parliament the Commission of Array in Staffordshire under my Lord Brook for the Parliament and my Lord of Northampton for the King great contention wherein both these Commanders were slain for my Lord Brook besieging Lichfield-Close was kill'd with a shot notwithstanding which they gave not over the Siege till they were Masters of the Close But presently after my Lord of Northamâ—ton besâ—â—ed 〈◊〉 again for the King which to relieve Sir William Brereton and Sir John Gell advanced towards Lichfield and were met at Hopton-heath by the Earl of Northampton and routed The Earl himself was slain but his Forces with Victory return'd to the Siege again and shortly after seconded by Prince Rupert who was then abroad in that Country carried the place These were the chief Actions of this year 1642. wherein the King's Party had not much the worse B. But the Parliament had now a better Army insomuch that if the Earl of Essex had immediately followed the King to Oxford not yet well fortified he might in all likelihood have taken it for he could not want either Men or Ammunition whereof the City of London which was wholly at the Parliaments devotion had store enough A. I cannot judge of that but this is manifest considering the estate the King was in at his first marching from York when he had neither Money nor Men nor Arms enough to put him in hope of Victory that this year take it altogether was very prosperous B. But what great Folly or Wickedness do you observe in the Parliaments Actions for this first year A. All that can be said against them in that point will be excus'd with the pretext of War and come under one Name of Rebellion saving that when they summoned any Town it was in the Name of the King and Parliament The King being in the contrary Army and many times beating them from the Siege I do not see how the right of War can justifie such Impudence as that But they pretended that the King was always virtually in the Two Houses of Parliament making a distinction between his Person Natural and Politique which made the Impudence the greater besides the folly of it For this was but an University Quibble such as Boys make use of in maintaining in the Schools such Tencts as they cannot otherwise defend In the end of this year they solicited also the Scots to enter England with an Army to suppress the power of the Earl of Newcastle in the North which was a plain Confession that the Parliament Forces were at this time inferior to the King 's and most men thought that if the Earl of Newcastle had then marched Southward and joined his Forces with the King 's that most of the Members of Parliament would have fled out of England In the beginning of 1643. the Parliament seeing the Earl of Newcastle's power in the North grown formidable sent to the Scots to hire them to an Invasion of England and to complement them in the mean time made a Covenant among themselves such as the Scots before had made against Episcopacy and demolished Crosses and Church-windows such as had in them any Images of Saints throughout all England Also in the middle of the year they made a Solemn League with the Nation which was called The Solemn League and Covenant B. Are not the Scots as properly to be called Foreigners as the Irish seeing then they persecuted the Earl of Strafford even to death for advising the King to make use of Irish Forces against the Parliament with what face could they call in a Scotch Army against the King A. The King's Party might easily here have discern'd their design to make themselves absolute Masters of the Kingdom and to dethrone the King Another great Impudence or rather a Bestial Incivility it was of theirs That they Voted the Queen a Traytor for helping the King with some Ammunition and English Forces from Holland B. Was it possible that all this could be done and Men not see that Papers and Declarations must be useless And that nothing could satisfie them but the Deposing of the King and setting up of themselves in his place A. Yes very possible for who was there of them though knowing that the King had the Sovereign Power that knew the Essential Rights of Sovereignty They dreamt of a mixt Power of the King and the Two Houses That it was a divided Power in which there could be no Peace was above their understanding therefore they were always urging the King to Declarations and Treaties for fear of subjecting themselves to the King in an absolute obedience which increased the hope and courage of the Rebels but did the King little good for the People either understand not or will not trouble themselves with Controversies in writing but rather by his compliance by Messages go away with an opinion That the Parliament was likely to have the Victory in the War Besides seeing that the Penners and Contrivers of those Papers were formerly Members of the Parliament and of another mind and now revolted from the Parliament because they could not bear that sway in the House which they expected men were apt to think they believed not what they wrote As for Military Actions to begin at the Head Quarters Prince Rupert took Brinningram a Garison of the Parliaments In July after the King's Forces had a great Victory over the Parliaments near the Devizes on Roundway-down where they took 2000 Prisoners four Brass Peeces of Ordnance 28 Colours and all their Baggage And shortly after Bristol was surrendred to Prince Rupert for the King and the King himself marching into the West took from the Parliament many other considerable places But this good Fortune was not a little allay'd by his besieging of Glocester which after it was reliev'd to the last gasp was reliev'd by the Earl of Essex whose Army was before greatly wasted but now recruited with Train'd Bands and Apprentices of London B. It seems not only by this but also by many Examples in History That there can hardly arise a long or dangerous Rebellion that has not some such overgrown City with an Army or two in its belly to foment it A. Nay more those great Capital Cities when Rebellion is upon pretence of Grievances must needs be of the Rebel Party because the Grievances are for Taxes to which Citizens that is Merchants whose profession
not of their Faction and all such as had approved the use of the Common Prayer-Book as also divers scandalous Ministers and Scholars that is such as customarily and without need took the Name of God into their mouths or used to speak wantonly or use the company of lewd Women and for this last I cannot â—ut commend them B. So shall not I for it is just such another piece of Piety as to turn Men out of an Hospital because they are lame Where can a man probably learn Godliness and how to correct his Vices better than in the Universities erected for that purpose A. It may be the Parliament thought otherwise for I have often heard the Complaints of Parents that their Children were debauched there to Drunkenness Wantonness Gaming and other Vices consequent to these Nor is it a wonder among so many Youths if they did not corrupt one another in despite of their Tutors who oftentimes were little Elder than themselves And therefore I think the Parliament did not much reverence the Institution of Universities as to the bringing up of young men to Vertue though many of them learn'd there to Preach and became thereby capable of preferment and maintenance and some others were sent thither by their Parents to save themselves the trouble of governing them at home during that time wherein Children are least governable Nor do I think the Parliament car'd more for the Clergy than other men did But certainly an University is an Excellent Servant to the Clergy and the Clergy if it be not carefully lookt too by their Dissenticus Doctrines and by the advantage to publish their Dissentions is no extraordinary means to divide a Kingdom into Faction B. But seeing there is no place in this part of the World where Philosophy and other Humane Sciences are not highly valued where can they be learned better than in the Universities A. What other Sciences Do not Divines comprehend all Civil and Moral Philosophy within their Divinity And as for Natural Philosophy is it not remov'd from Oxford and Cambridge to Gresham-College in London and to be learn'd out of their Gazets But we are gone from our Subject B. No we are indeed gone from the great business of the Kingdom to which if you please let us return A. The first Insurrection or rather Tumult was of the Apprentices on the 9th of April but this was not upon the Kings Account but arose from a customary Assembly of them for recreation in Moor-fulds whence some zealous Officers of the Train'd-Bands would needs drive them away by force but were themselves routed with Stones and had their Ensign taken away by the Apprentices which they carryed about in the Streets and frighted the Lord Mayor into his House where they took a Gun called a Drake and then they set Guards at some of the Gates and all the rest of the day Childishly swagger'd up and down but the next day the General himself marching into the City quickly dispersed them This was but a small business but enough to let them see that the Parliament was ill-beloved of the people Next the Welch took Arms against them there were three Colonels in Wales Langhorn Poyer and Powel who had formerly done the Parliament good Services but now were commanded to disband which they refus'd to do and the better to strengthen themselves declared for the King and were about Eight Thousand About the same time in Wales also was an another Insurrection headed by Sir Nicholas Keymish and another under Sir John Owen so that now all Wales was in Rebellion against the Parliament And yet all these were overcome in a Months time by Cromwel and his Officers but not without store of Blood-shed on both sides B. I do dot much pity the loss of those men that impute to the King that which they do upon their own quarrel A. Presently after this some of the people of Surrey sent a Petition to the Parliament for a Personal Treaty betwen the King and Parliament but their Messengers were beaten home again by the Soldiers that quartered about Westminster and then the Kentish men having a like Petition to deliver and seeing how it was like to be receiv'd threw it away and took up Arms they had many Gallant Officer and for General the Earl of Norwich and increas'd daily by Apprentices and old disbanded Soldiers insomuch as the Parliament was glad to restore to the City their Militia and to keep Guards upon the Thames side and then Fairfax march'd towards the Enemy B. And then the Londoners I think might easily and suddenly have Master'd first the Parliament and next Fairfax his eight thousand and lastly Cromwels Army or at least have given the Scotch Army opportunity to march unfought to London A. 'T is true but the City was never good at venturing nor were they or the Scots principled to have a King over them but under them Fairfax matching with eight thousand against the Royalists routed a part of them at Maidstone another part were taking in of places in Kent farther off and the Earl of Norwich with the rest came to Black-Heath and then sent to the City to get passage through it to joyn with those which were risen in Essex under Sir Charles Lucas and Sir George Lisle which being denied the greatest part of his Kentish men deserted him with the rest not above five hundred he crossed the Thames unto the Isle of Dogs and so to Bow and thence to Colchester Fairfax having notice of this crossed the Thames at Graves-End and overtaking them besieged them in Colchester The Town had no defence but a Bulwark and yet held out upon hope of the Scotch Army to relieve them the space of two Months Upon the news of the defeat of the Scots they were forced to yield the Earl of Norwich was sent Prisoner to London Sir Charles Lucas and Sir George Lisle two Loyal and Gallant Persons were shot to Death There was also another little Insurrection headed by the Earl of Holland about Kingston but quickly supprest and he himself taken Prisoner B. How came the Scots to be so soon dispatcht A. Meerly as it is said for want of Conduct The Army was led by Duke Hamilton who was thenset at liberty when Pendennis Castle where he was Prisoner was taken by the Parliament He enterd England with Horse and Foot 10000 to which came above 3000 English Royalists Against these Cromwel marched out of Wales with Horse and Foot 11000 and near to Preston in Lancashire in less than two hours defeated them and the cause of it is said to be that the Scotch Army was so ordered as they could not all come to the Fight nor relieve their Fellows After the Defeat they had no way to fly but farther into England so that in the pursuit they were almost all taken and lost all that an Army could lose for the few that got home did not all bring home their Swords Duke Hamilton was
banished also from within 20 Miles of London all the loyal Party forbidding every one of them to depart more than five miles from his dwelling house B. They meant perhaps to have them ready if need were for a Massacre But what did the Scots in this time A. They were considering of the Officers of the Army which they were levying for the King how they might exclude from Command all such as had loyally serv'd his now Majesty's Father and all Independents and all such as commanded in Duke Hamilton's Army And these were the main things which passed this year The Marquess of Montross that had in the year 1645. with a few men and in a little time done things almost incredible against the late King's Enemies in Scotland landed now again in the beginning of the year 1650. in the North of Scotland with Commission from the present King hoping to do him as good service as he had formerly done his Father but the case was alter'd for the Scotch Forces were then in England in the service of the Parliament whereas now they were in Scotland and many more for their intended Invasion newly rais'd Besides the Souldiers which the Marquess brought over were few and Forreigners nor did the High-landers come in to him as he expected insomuch as he was soon defeated and shortly after taken and with more spightful usage than revenge requir'd Executed by the Covenanters at Edinborough May the 2d B. What good could the King expect from joining with these men who during the Treaty discover'd sâ— much malice to him in one of his one of his best Subjects A. No doubt their Church-men being then prevalent they would have done as much so this King as the English Parliament had done to his Father it they could have gotten by it that which they foolishly aspir'd to the Government of the Nation I do not believe that the Independents were worse than the Presbyterians both the one and the other were resolv'd to destroy whatsoever should stand in the way to their Ambition but necessity made the King pass over both this and many other Indignities from them rather than suffer the pursuit of his right in England to cool and be little better than extinguished B. Indeed I believe the Kingdom if suffered to become an old Debt will hardly ever be recover'd Besides the King was sure where-ever the Victory lighted he could lose nothing in the War but Enemies A. About the time of Montrosses death which was in May Cromwel was yet in Ireland and his work unfinished but finding or by his Friends advertis'd that his presence in the Expedition now preparing against the Scots would be necessary to his Design sent to the Rump to know their pleasure concerning his return But for all that he knew or thought it was not necessary to stay for their Answer but came away and arriv'd at London the sixth of June following and was welcom'd by the Rump Now had General Fairfax who was truly what he pretended to be a Presbyterian been so Catechis'd by the Presbyterian Ministers here that he refused to fight against the Brethren in Scotland nor did the Rump nor Cromwel go about to rectifie his Conscience in that point And thus Fairfax laying down his Commission Cromwel was now made General of all the Forces in England and Ireland which was another step to the Soveraign Power B. Where was the King A. In Scotland newly come over he landed in the North and was honourably conducted to Edinborough though all things was not yet well agreed upon between the Scots and him for he had yielded to as hard Conditions as the late King had yielded to in the Isle of Wight yet they had still somewhat to add till the King enduring no more departed from them towards the North again But they sent Messengers after him to pray him to return but they furnished these Messengers with strength enough to bring him back if he should have refus'd In fine they agreed but would not suffer the King or any Royalist to have Command in the Army B. The sum of all is the King was their Prisoner A. Cromwel from Berwick sends a Declaration to the Scots telling them he had no Quarrel against the people of Scotland but against the malignant Party that had brought in the King to the disturbance of the Peace between the two Nations and that he was willing by Conference to give and receive satisfaction or to decide the Justice of the Cause by Battel To which the Scots answering declare That they will not prosecute the Kings Interest before and without his acknowledgment of the sins of his House and his former ways and satisfaction given to Gods people in both Kingdoms Judge by this whether the present King was not in as bad a condition here as his Father was in the hands of the Presbyterians of England B. Presbyterians are every where the same they would fain be absolute Governours of all they converse with and have nothing to plead for it but that where they reign 't is God that reigns and no where else But I observe one strange demand that the King should acknowledg the sins of his House for I thought it had been certain from all Divines that no man was bound to acknowledg any mans sins but his own A. The King having yielded to all that the Church requir'd the Scots proceeded in their intended War Cromwel marched on to Edinborough provoking them all he could to Battel which they declining and provisions growing scarce in the English Army Cromwel retir'd to Dunbar despairing of success and intending by Sea or Land to get back into England And such was the condition which this General Cromwel so much magnified for Conduct had brought his Army to that all his Glories had ended in shame and punishment if Fortune's and the faults of his Enemies had not reliev'd him for as he retir'd the Scots follow'd him close all the way till within a mile of Dunbar There is a ridge of Hills that from beyond Edinborough goes winding to the Sea and crosses the High-way between Dunbar and Barwick at a Village called Copperspeith where the passage is so difficult that if the Scots had sent timely thither a very few men to guard it the English could never have passed for the Scots kept the Hills and needed not have fought but upon great advantage and were almost two to one Cromwel's Army was at the Foot of those Hills on the North side and there was a great Ditch or Channel of a Torrent between the Hills and it so that he could never have got home by Land nor without utter ruine of the Army attempted to ship it nor have stayed where he was for want of provisions Now Cromwel knowing the Pass was free and commanding a good Party of Horse and Foot to possess it it was necessary for the Scots to let them go whom they brag'd they had impoâ—â—ded er else to fight and