be lawfull to cut A. S. a syllable shorter power is which the man with both hands and an importune bounty will needs bestow upon the Civill Magistrate 2 By what authority and upon what grounds he doth it For the first hee describes and states this power after this manner pag. 6. The Parliament pretends no Directive power in matters of Religion nor any executive power that is intrinsecall to the Church but only an executive coercitive and externall power which is not in but about the Church and for the Church whereby it compelleth refractory men to obey the Church And this authority belongs actually and in effect in actu exercito as they say to true Christian Magistrates but to others potentially in actufignato and jure in rem only till they become true Christians c. In this description the man is to me a Barbarian his own phrase to the Apologists in the word Church Sect. 3. I have bestowed thoughts more then a few to be partners with him in his notion of the word but quanto plus cogito co minus capio For shame A. S. out with the beam of obscurity from your own eye before you tiffle again to pull the moat of obscurity out of your brothers eye A man in reason would think that the same word being used four or five times and that without the least intimation of any variety or difference of signification almost within the compasse of so many lines were still meant and to be taken in one and the same sense If so then ha with you The Parliament by that coercitive power which you are pleased here to bestow upon it by way of compensation for that directive power which you take from it compelleth say you refractory men to obey the Church I presume that by the Church here you do not mean all the particular Churches and Congregations in the kingdome in the folio of their respective members but in the deoimo sexto of their Synod representative Assembly If you take the word in the former sense you only say that the Parliament hath power to compell the refractory to obey all the particular Churches with their severall members in the Kingdome which is a sense I conceive at as much defiance with your ends as with your and our understandings If you take it in the latter which I doubt not but is your beloved sense then your meaning is that the use and intent of that executive coercive power in matters of Religion which you put into the Parliaments hands is to compell the kingdome in case it be refractory or tot quot to obey the Presbyterie and Presbyteriall assemblies in all their Canons Determinations and Decrees whatsoever without bail or mainprise without mercy or compassion whether a man findes sap sense savour reason or Religion in them or no. But yet secondly Sect. 4. I know not well how you should mean the Church contracted in her Grand Presbyterie or Generall Assembly neither first because you affirm in this coercive power in the Parliament to be not in but about the Church and for the Church And I doubt your meaning is not that the Parliament should either only or chiefly work or act with this their coercive power upon your Ecclesiastique Assemblies to restrain and keep them within compass though I confess if it should move only or chiefly in this sphere it would be more for the Church i. for the good and benefit of the Church in generall then to suffer such assemblies to fit and impose oaths upon men to obey their acts orders and decrees which you tell us glorying in your shame pag. 42. is done in your Presbyteriall Government and to punish or crush those that shall have more conscience then to inslave themselves unto them in such a way And 2. if by Church you should here mean the Church representative as it is more commonly then properly called in her generall Assembly you would be a little more open then I conceive will well stand with your principles in such cases For then your meaning is plainly this That the Parliament hath that executive coercive power which you ascribe to it not for the Church i. the benefit of the Saints and servants of God throughout the kingdome but for the benefit and behoof of the Ecclefiastique Presbyteries and Assemblies only Now however I can easily believe that thus you would have it yet I conceive it somewhat eccentricall to your other motions to profess it And yet 3. when you immediately adde that in vertue of this authority when parties pretend to be effended by the Church or if the Church judge any thing amiss hee the civill Magistrate may command the Church to revise and examine its judgement c. You must needs mean your transcendent Church of Presbyters otherwise you should prevaricate and grant a judiciary power to particular Congregations 4. And lastly in the very next page pag. 7. Sect. 5. to represent the voluntary exile of the Apologists with as hard-favour'd an aspect in the eyes of men as he could his indignation against it utters it self in this Patheticall strain over the poor Church of God in this Kingdome And if they all had fled away what might have become of the poor Church of God in this Kingdome c. Here by the Church of God in this Kingdome he cannot mean the Ecclesiastique Church of representing Presbyters because if these had all fled away there had been no Church of God in such a sense in this Kingdome By the Church of God in this place if he means any thing like a man hee must needs mean the godly part in the Kingdom and that considered without their Presbyters or Pastours And oh that hee and his coopinatory party would but grant that that executive coercive power which is in the civil Magistrate is for this Church I mean for the benefit and peace of this Church of God But in the mean time you see that his Trumpet in the Description he gives of his executive coercive externall power in the Magistrate gives no distinct sound perhaps he blew wild on purpose lest an enemy should know how to prepare to battaile against him But is there never a blessing of reason or truth in all this cluster Come and see In vertue of this authoritie saith he when parties pretend to be offended with the Church or the Church judge any thing amisse Sect. 6. he the Civill Magistrate may command the Church to examine its judgement c. In these few words he hath plainly plundred and undone a very confiderable partie of his owne beloved notions elsewhere For 1. What reason hath he to be so invective against the Apologists as he is pag. 49. and 50. for holding that Kings or civill Magistrates are above the Church when as himselfe here professeth that they may command the Church especially his own Maxime elsewhere being this that Par in parem non habet imperium and that
without the Church If it be replied No because that Church did implicitly consent in yeelding their Elders for members of that Presbytery We reply That if either your publick Law constrains that Church upon penalty Invitum dicitur quod quis vel per ignorantiam admittit Arist Eth. l. 3. c. 1. Kecker Praecog Syst Eth. against their light to suffer their Elders to fit in the Classicall Presbytery then that Church doth not freely consent or if that Church without constraint doth consent for want of light as it must be supposed if a Classis upon debate be found to be besides the word this ignorant act of that Church is an unwilling or involuntary act and so no free consent And so the Classis according to A. S. his distinction is like a Magistrate which is a Bishop without and about that Church But good A. S. we know it is an easie matter to distinguish the Magistrate into such an executive coercitive externall power as you speake of but we would fain see you demonstrate him into it and then A. S. and M. S. should be no more two but one S. We know not how to transform distinctions into demonstrations His second Distinction is of the Subject of this power the Magistrate whom he makes two-fold truly Christian and not truly Christian But 1. I would faine know by what Touchstone A. S. will try his gold in this case I mean judge of the truth of Christianitie in a Magistrate It appeares from page 50. of his discourse that he hath no mind to grant his truth of Christianity unto a Magistrate that is either Lutheran Anabaptist Socinian or Papist Any of these misprisions in Christianity are as sufficient in A. S. his judgement as in ours to keep the sword of that power we speake of out of the Magistrates hand And as for a Magistrate whose judgement shall be infected perfected reason and truth would say with Apologisme or the great hatred of his soule independencie I make no question but he in the Comique terme should bee exclusissimus from this capacitie or right above all the rest But let us goe on with the man in the termes of his own addresse to the Apologists Sect. 13. in the same place If he saith that by a Magistrate truly Christian he understand an orthodox Magistrate what if he had one or two errors would he yet permit him to be orthodox and truly Christian or not Till A. S. here specifies Seermones generales non movent his own shall make use of my reason to beleeve that by a Magistrate truly Christian A. S. onely mean a Magistrate who in his judgement is Presbyteriall and that this qualification of Presbyterialisme and truth of Christianitie in a Magistrate are against all contradictions and counter-poysings whatsoever termini aequipollentes in his Logique And if this be his meaning the king to be sure hath none of his power as yet in actu exercito and jure in re nor hath the Parliament at least for ought A. S. or the kingdom knoweth any whit more of it then the King And whatsoever it hath done hitherto by any executive coercive externall power about the Church or Church-affairs in which kinde it hath done very much depends as touching the validity and justifiableness of it upon this supposition that it Presbyterializeth Whence it followeth that he that cannot or doth not believe that the Parliament is of a Classique inclination cannot with the leave of A. S. his distinction judge them to have done lawfully or warrantably any thing that they have done hitherto about or for the Church The truth is that till A. S. will please to define what manner of Magistrate hee must be that shall pass the test of his distinction for truly Christian wee are constrained to suspend our bounty in conferring that executive coercive externall power about the Church upon any man Nor do I make much question but that wee shall have twenty Distinctions more before we shall obtain that Definition But of all the three distinctions here upon the stage Sect. 14. the best dancer is yet behind This Power or Authority saith he belongs actually and in effect in actu exercito jure in re it 's very long me thinks ere wee hear to whom it belongs to true Christian Magistrates but to others potentially in actu signato jure in rem only untill they become truly Christian 1. Though I have many times heard of the distinction in actu exercito in actu signato yet I never heard of any thing belonging to a person in actu exercito but that belonged to him and that per prius in actu signato Hee to whom the principle or power of acting doth not belong cannot stand ingaged for the exercise or acting of such a power 2. My soul longs for the Summer fruit of a good reason from A. S. Sect. 15. why any power about the Church and for the Church should not belong actually and in effect in actu exercito jure in re and with as many other proper unproper necessary unnecessary sober ridiculous expressions as he pleaseth as well to a Magistrate not yet truly Christian as to him that is such Hath not an Heathen or Heterodox Magistrate a lawfulness of power to do presently this day this hour to morrow and so forth toties quoties as much good to and for the Church or Churches of Christ within his jurisdiction or dominion as he could have if he were truly Christian Do acts of justice bounty grace towards the Churches of Christ any whit more defile a Magistrate how far from truly Christian soever then acts of the same nature performed unto his other subjects The Kings and those that were in authority in Pauls dayes were generally all the kings without exception far from being truly Christian and yet was it not lawfull for them to interpose with their Authority or Power that the Churches of Christ in their dominions might lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty If not then was that exhortation of his 1 Tim. 2.2 to be laid up in Lavender for some hundreds of yeers after it was given or else the benefit and blessing the obtaining whereof by prayer is made the ground of the exhortation must have been made over in the intentions of those that had so prayed unto their posterities after many generations A. S. may choose which of the two hee will believe for my part I shall not be his corrivall in either Yee have heard A. S. his Distinctions for a coercive power about the Church in a Civill Magistrate Demonstrationes autem ubi But where are his proofs Quas non invenio usquam esse puto nusquam What I finde not any where I believe to be no where I have searched Sect. 16. and that somewhat narrowly throughout the whole volume of his Discourse to finde something that with any indulgence of imagination might be
and so all are ready to be offended that are lesse reformed We have heard of sad stories of late but true not teld in a corner of the lamentable over-spreading of Popery Atheisme drunkennesse in some kingdomes and adulterie formality c. in others If we reforme but in part by halves imitating Hen. 8. towards the Pope cutting off the head of Prelacie and sitting down in their Chaire similia non sunt contraria as Mr Davenport meeting with a Classicall Presbytery in his way to New-England said they were but thirteen Bishops for one the cry of the sin against our light and opportunity will call back our reeling Reformation like will hasten to like an unblest posture will leave us unhealed of our sins and our sins will make us become any thing Had not the Abbeys been pulled downe the Priories since had had opportunity to have risen Therefore Moses grinds the Idol to powder that it might be quite abolished I speak all this by way of supposition what shall upon full debate be found to be the Idol the nest of Popery the Chair of Prelacy the half-reformation Thus of your charging the five Ministers with dissenting from all Protestant Churches The expression that follows is a most grosse one That they differ from all Christian Churches I say grosse in two things 1. To call them Churches and Christian that are not Protestant and ergo are Popish now since the Councell of Trent wherein they gave Christ a bill of divorce as the learned assert anathematizing most of his main truths The Popish notwithstanding a few Saints in secret here and there are in a dependance on Antichrist 2. To charge it as a crime on the five Ministers to differ from them when as it is a sin and shame not to dissent from them If you diffent not from them you will never kindly dissent from the intituled Mo. R. A. BB. and Rt. Rev. BB. I observe that men in their Replies secretly afore they are aware run to the Popish markes of a Church viz. Visibility Succession Vniversalitie A. S. You as my selfe are but men yet ye know but in part and consequently may erre M. S. Yet this one man thinks he hath more knowledge to his part then the other five Ministers or else sure he would not so boldly condemne them of erring in a point which all the Assembly have not yet determined and so peremptorily acquit himself A. S. I thought this which is the question between you and all the Churches in the Christian world M. S. This untruth comes thick upon us that the Apol differs from all the Christian world It is intimated in the title It is expressed in the very beginning of the Epistle and here againe and once more in 3. pag. of the Epist and once in Consid 5. and how oft more in the book I doe not yet know till I find as I goe We have answered it once for all in the threshold of this Epistle A. S. I esteemed it no lesse a part of my dutie and Christian libertie as a man to oppose my selfe to five men then for five men to oppose five hundred thousand c. M. S. Hear ye O all ye men on earth that A. S. saith it is his Christian liberty to oppose the five Ministers but the whole scope of his booke is to rebuke them upon supposition that they doe oppose others whiles they tell them wherein they agree with them One instance follows at the heâ—l of his Christian liberty to which by and by Mean while Reader observe how this mans words do smell popishly though I think the man to be a real Protestant as if they came from Rome intimating as if visibilitie universalitie and so pluralitie of voyces of learned men might be unerring or very certain argument He speaks as if he had forgot or never heard of Wickliff many yeares after him Husse long after him Luther justly opposing the whole world as we all religiously maintain at this day And that one Paphâ—utius opposed a whole Councel mistaken in a point which is upon record of History to his great honour to this day A. S. Five men to oppose so many learned men so many holy Divines hundreds and thousands for one of you no way inferiour to the learnedest and best among you and not only to particular men and Divines but to so many yea and those the most pure and most reformed Churches of the world amongst whom there have been found so many thousands who have sealed Christs truth with the losse of their goods imprisonment of their bodies by exile of their persons yea with their dearest blood and lives who if they wrote not miracles yet God declared his almighty power in working miracles about them c. M. S. Here we have in forme and I will not say how much more a Popish argument I will not say a mopish argument I abhor flying on men in stead of matter To this I will speake and then they that will be deceived let them be deceived First you * Doctrines and practises prove men good not men doctrines and practises good dub such a number of men and people Saints most reformed learned no way inferiour to the learnedst and best among the five Ministers as if you knew perfectly all mens spirits mens lives in all places in the world and the five Ministers parts c. intus incute Then secondly as before you came what R. Reverend and most Reverend I desire to speake it no other way then with a Christian griefe and anger against such Sophismes so now you Cant to us as it were the Popish Prelaticall Letanie and Te Deum As if by the temptations and fastings by the passions by the deaths and burialls of suffering Christians The noble army of Martyrs praising the holy Church throughout all the world acknowledging you would conjure us to yeeld any thing upon pluralitie of voyces or topick arguments that may are turned every way and used by all sorts good and bad for their owne waies 1. Men living in a notorious sinne of grosse usury unjust enclosures monopolizing c. First They will tell you of severall Ministers c. very holy men and then secondly They will tell you that those Ministers doe approve of those things 2. The Malignants now cry that so many good Lords so many Parliament men most of two Kingdomes are for the King Ergo the King doth well beleeve it who so will The Papists proclaime that they have pluralitie of voyces Martyrs c. Ergo they are in the right So the Prelacie tell us that of Bishops were many Martyrs to which Smectymnuus answers by them was composed the Liturgie and they have a thousand for one of them so they had formerly and most of the learned Doctors c. Scholars Divines and Lawyers were for them therefore they were in the right Then some of our respected brethren of the reputed godly Non-Conformists come in a title
of a Booke thus A touch on W. R. his booke called The grave Confutation c. A most grave and modest Confutation of the errors of the sect commonly called as W. R. sayth Brownists or Seperatists so his skill writes it for Separatists agreed upon long since by the joynt consent of sundry godly and learned Ministers of this Kingdome then standing out and suffering in the cause of Inconformitie and now published in a time of neede * VVhat now all or the greatest part of them come to our publik meetings and the Apol. disclaims Separation and Brownisme unlesse you would drive them to corners again c. against that pernitious evill Published by W. R. As if their sufferings were a seale of the just length of reformation how farre we must go and no further When as the most of them stood only upon the negative part What they would not have but onely a few declared positively of which some for a Congregationall presbytery or Church-way be it or be it not a pernitious evill as W. R. calls it God forbid that if wee have suffered for Christ in the behalfe of any piece of truth that therefore we should pride up our selves as having done so much or stint our selves from proceeding further in knowledge or affright our selves from suffering more if more truths bee to be contended for as the Apostle speakes or least of all through the sides of Brownisme or Separation to would the truth Saints of Jesus Christ just in the nick of such reproachings cast upon them that disclaime in words and practise all pernicious Brownisme c. It cannot bee forgotten that the choicest doctrines held in England have beene called pernitious heresie And therefore it is an high peremptorinesse in a generall title to call all those things pernitious evils some of which are truths We have and doe disclaim Separation and Brownisme properly so called But if the Pope or the Devill * Mar. 1.24 confesse Christ we will not therefore call that truth a pernitious evill I suppose all that W. R. book sets forth in heads and Chapters as to be confuted are some of those things hee means are pernitious evills As 1. That pag. 8. Many Parish-Churches are not rightly gathered 2. That p. 11. That they Communicate in a false and idolatrous worship as stinted prayers Homilies Catechismes 3. That p. 17. they want that Discipline and order which Christ in his Testament hath appointed for the gouernement of his Church 4. That p. 50. That it is objected against them that the ignorant and prophane multitude are admitted to all priviledges of the Câ—urches Are these we give but a tast pernitious evills Then you condemne Smeclymnuus for writing the Parliament and Assembly for removing and about to remove these exceptions And most presbyterian Ministers in London for forbearing togive Communious to such multitudes Mr. Calamy said that an imposed Lituâ—gie was idolatry And our worthy brethren of Scorland justly stood up against these enormiâ—ies No wonder therefore if W. R. booke abound with weakenesses and impertinencies in stead of Confutation of such things as these For I patronage not any false or unadvised speeches of Barrow or c. there used 3. A. S. Saying That the Apologists differ from the most reformed Churches in the world Some of which hee knowes are in Holland more in England most in New-England all publike Churches if hee speakes not falsly or ignorantly yet begging the Question whether the Churches named or the Classicall Presbyterian are most reformed To close our answer to this tell us no more of your multitudâ—s the Lord keepe us all from the broad way that leadeth to destruction though many there be therein One Phinees one Elijah left alone in the eye of the world two against thousands viz. Caleb and Josuah in the truth are more to be honored then swarmes of swarvers I judge none The time is at hand that ten men shall take hold of one Jew * Zech. 8.23 and so on one true christian Godly men may be hunted out of a Kingdom not of the truth meane while such a Kingdom may be without them but neere the more without judgments England was never quiet but worse worse since it hunted away almost a little Nation of Saints to New-England though W. R. joyning issue with A. S. will follow them with a blotting pen in print even to that Kingdome too Yea and take in his way many Churches in old England and some that are and lately were in Holland and then have at New-England none comes amisse that have gone an inch in reformation beyond W. R. his Non-Conformitie Like him who would strike all that were next him who e're they were that injured him And all this worke he cuts out for himselfe in his booke he calls a Narration of some Church courses in New-England ☜ O that all Readers that will not be wilfully blind would by the way observe how A. S. condemnes the Apologists as guiltie of dissenting from the Churches in New-England And W. R. condemnes them for agreeing with the Churches of New-England So that A. S. and W. R. doe not agree betweene themselves But you shall have an Answer to that booke of W. R. in a distinct treatise by it selfe ere long God permitting Meane while we goe forward with A. S. A. S. I am perswaded in my conscience that your opinion of Independency c. if it were admitted pardon my expression till I be better instructed could not but prove the roote of all sorts of Schisme and Heresie and consequently the utter overthrow of Christs universall militant Church M. S. If you speake cordially as supposing indeede that you may be better instructed it had beene best for you to have stayd for the Assemblies determination or to have conferred with some of them you write against before you had written and printed that desperate speech lest the inke seeme letters of blood to you at your dying pillow I warrant you if what one or many say onely would make an argument a multitude would say that a coactive classicall Presbyterie would be the root of couched Prelacy and Ecclesiasticall tyrannie But I will not be one of them to say so Probatum est in New-England that which you call Independency hath not procured but cured or purged out heresies schismes formalitie prophaneness more then some other Kingdoms that so hate and hit at mis-called Independeney A. S. You sue for a Toleration and consequently for a Separation M. S. So then where Papists are tolerated there they are Separatists too It 's but the Noun of multitude between but that the Independents in England might tolerate and the Presbyterians might be tolerated would they then be Separatists Who desires separation but rather union in the truth If any hold the truth and stumble though of weakness at some smaller matters as you count them it is your duty to suffer them and to bear with the weak
and not offend the consciences of Brethren or Gods woe is by him pronounced against you A. S. I may adde to all these your undervaluing of the Parliaments great favour towards you For yee know brethren how they notwithstanding your former separation from all other Churches c. invited you to be members of this Assembly had they not given you the capacity yee had been altogether incapable And not only that but they honoured one of you with the high favour of sending one of you with their Commissioners to Scotland M. S. O abominable accusation O sycophantising insinuation Who art A. S. Cujas Can an English-man unjesuited or any Minister unprelatised or any man honestised say thus I am distressed how to put home to this and yet prudently I tell thee A. S. Thy accusation is a gross falshood For their respect to the Parliament and their respect from the Parliament let many of the choyce members of both Houses speak they will soon prove thee a gross Thy probation a silly phantasie Did ever any Vote of the Parliament or of the Assembly accuse the Apologie of undervaluing the Parliaments favours None but he that hath A. S. as part of his name would say so For all discreet men see plainly that as the form and stile of the Apologie is most sweet so the matter now in hand so much as is there intimated is the Question Can that be an offence to the Parliament for the five Ministers to propound that of the things they are to debate by Ordinance of Parliament which is to them the question making it ready and leaving it for debate in the Assembly Yea whether the whole draught of the Apologie be to be condemned or commended by the Parliament that is also a question yet unresolved by Parliament Assembly and a considerable part of City and Kingdom Therefore why doth one A. S. presumptuously make it a crime against the Parliament Since the thrice worthy Parliament had it in debate in the House March 13. 1643. being put on by the Letters from Middleborough in Zeland and upon the speech of learned Mr. Selden and others they resolved with a generall acclamation that the Apologie was to be left as it was found unblamed The God of heaven in much mercy bless the Parliament as for all the good they have done so for their uprightness therein They joy of the Churches is now as high as their sorrows would have been deep had it been condemned For it would to them have been not only a dolefull ante or anti but-anticipating-presage But blessed be our Parliament-guiding God that as they had no hand in the Apologie so they would have no hand against it Therefore away A. S. Operam oleum perdidisti as the Starling said to the Emperour having saluted him in vain with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 you have lost your labour The Parliament despise sycophantising colloguing Are you as wise as that Bird to see that it said And on the other side they do not repent of what honour they conferred on Mr. Nye For the Parliament in wisdom chose some Episcopall men to be of the Assembly to plead their own cause if they could Some of which since cast out themselves and others were cast out and through him on his brethren of the same judgement They could not but think what ever you dream but that the five Ministers were in as neer a capacity to be of the Assembly c. being native English-men and against Episcopacie as either those of other Nations or those of our own in judgement holding for Episcopacie and standing for the just and lawfull authority of Magistracy as either A. S. The Apol. Narration containing how ever you name it a singular desire of separation from them that so cherish you with some unworthy nick-names put upon them who stile you by no worse names then Brethren M. S. What ever names A. S. puts upon this his Book as Annot. Consid Notes sure enough Nigro carbone notandus Hic Niger est hunc tu Romane caveto it is not candid but holds forth A. S. his singular desire of making division if he could either between the Parliament and the Brethren or between them and our dearest brethren of Scotland if M. S. do rightly divine what he means by them God and man hates this thy design O A. S. Six things the Lord hates yea seven are abomination to him Aproud look a lying tongue an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations a false witness that speaketh lies him that soweth discord among brethren c. for I have named enough for A. S. to make his choice And I am informed that the worthy Commissioners of Scotland nobly done do utterly dislike A. S. his Book From whom we have far more evident and effectuall symptomes of their cordiall love then the word Brethren Which with A. S. in his Book is nothing but Complementall dissimulation For his Epistle begins as it were with kissing viz. Right reverend and dear Brethren And his book is biting So that as he useth the word Brethren it is much to the same sense as a parasiticall Minister being to preach an odde fellows funerall did use the words of that deceased mans Will viz. In the name of God Amen this story is proper for A. S. if he hath any skill in the law for I cannot yet be certain what he is saith the Priest being put to it for matter for his Trentall Panegyrick See the devotion of this deceased brother he begins his Will with In the name of God Amen A silly Goose for it 's as common for all good and bad to begin their Wills so as A. S. knows if a Lawyer as for A. S. to call Brethren and to bawl forth reviling all along his book As for the Nick-names A. S. chargeth upon the five Ministers with which they should nick-name I know not whom he names them not which makes me think he hath no skill in Law He knows that Dolus latet in universalibus or to use his own words p. 47. Sermones generales non movent we cannot answer to generalls nor can he find them in the Apologie What a Pharisee may phantasie that will not have mens defects intimated as they stand in the crowd of all Christendome I am sure the worthy Commissioners piously confess their Churches may be yet further reformed and what religious men will not sigh forth the same touching their own native Countries A. S. What else have yee done but erected one Assembly in the Assembly by private authority against publike taking private resolutions against publike M. S. O gross yet he will follow Machiavels counsell that said Calumniare audacter aliquid adherebit If men must not speake write or preach any thing that may relate to something in debate in the Assembly then as it was excellently spoken in Parliament Ministers may write and say nothing at all Divers print and preach for the Presbytery yet of
the Assembly Are they all a private particular Assembly A. S. Sundry reasons made me to suspect that ye would say more then ye say M. S. And what then Did you think by this your Reply to hush them No readier way to make them or their friends to say more then either they intended or you would willingly hear Yet confess one truth That there hath been two replies to them already yet they have printed no reply that we know of for that you mean I suppose by saying more Else God forbid but they should speak and speak in the Assembly too though one said Hee had much ado to forbear moving to have one of them to be cast out of the Assembly for propounding his Reason to the Question to which he was called by order of Parliament But for you A. S. you would make a stone speak as they say If you believe not the Poet Si natura negat facit indignatio versum yet believe the Scripture Eccles 7.7 M. R. Oppression would make a wise man mad But let me tell you now of one that is of your judgement for the Presbyterie but by far a more solid and discreet man then your self that said There was this good by the Apologie that therein the five Ministers had wrapt up themselves that they could not say more in substance oftener then was there in expressed Nor could they recede from that compliance with you they had therein professed So you see you Presbyterians may differ among your selves no wonder therefore if from the five Ministers A. S. I love you all from my heart M. S. Good Reader compare this mans book with his heart And good Writer if I do not mis-call thee judge whether in your book you act the part of a loving Physitian were your potion never so cordiall in that you administer it scalding hot though you flatter till it 's powred down the throat A. S. The will is but a blind faculty M. S. Now where is your Philosophie Is there an unreasonable faculty in the reasonable soul that hath no light but by participation This is news to considerate Philosophers that do not take things upon trust by tradition of speculative untried principles A. S. My main aim hath been Gods glory and the edification of weak brethren who may have been misted by your most learned Discourse M. S. Yet this man in his 1 Annot. pag. 4. saith It comes very short is weak and slender and no way satisfactory The man makes nothing of contradictions upon contradictions for even here also is a contradiction or two more Are the five Ministers discourse most learned and yet errour too as you said in the beginning of your Epistle And are they most learned and yet less learned then you But indeed saith one Hee makes a great noyse of learning in his book ratling his Sophistry-terms so that though hee hath failed in his Divinity Physick and Philosophie hitherto yet hee will make us know that hee is a notable Logician or he will make our ears ring with unenglished Ergoes with A genere ad speciem affirmativè with A posse ad esse non valet consequentia Non possibile est esse Page of his book 53 54. possibile est non esse totum totaliter materialiter dispositivè with his modifications assumptions c. and multitudes of such lumber to the weake brethren O said one that some body would earnestly intreat him to speak seriously whether he thinks in his conscience this to be his direct way to that end hee here professeth namely to edifie weak Brethren Alas such things to them if Englished are but gibberish and as charms A. S. Esteeming that during the rest of my pilgrimage which cannot be long having no other thing to doe I shall doe well to doe this M. S. I 'l tell you what one said to this Would God he had rather no patient then he should have no patience then the Church should be his patient seeing he hath no more skill in her griefe that he had no client then that he should be a treacherous Advocate that he would rather doe nothing then evill For it is a sad thing said he that good men neer their end should write some sorry peece to be a monument of their declining in their last dayes and of their disgrace before they are buried As a worthy man a little afore his death wrote in defence of ceremonies for which formerly he had suffered A warning to A. S. and all good men that their good works should be more at last and so to leave that character to the hypocrites as one observes to live smoothly towards his end to doe sorily and then to die suddenly A. S. HIS CONSIDERATIONS M. S. Truly called Interrogatories which A. S. puts to the five Ministers as if he were already gotten into the Chair c. A. S. His first Consideration Whether in any Ecclesiasticall or Politick Assembly of the Christian world wherein things are carried by plurality of voices it be ordinarie for any inconsiderable number thereof to joyn in a particular combination among themselves and therein to take particular resolutions M. S. We have heard of some Parliaments in Europe that the House of Peeres is so constitute that if a vote passe where somes consciences amongst them cannot yeeld to they may modestly enter in the House their dissent from it But whether this be so or not the five Ministers did not take particular resolutions and publish them in print to crosse the proceedings and Disputes of the Assembly or state a question yet unresolved by the Assembly but onely told the Kingdome de facto what they had held and practised and therfore in the Apologie speak in the past time with some very few and short touches upon what ground Wherein they declare themselves to close nearer with the Assembly were they all Presbyterian as we know the contrary then thousands ever thought they would And withall they doe professe themselves so unwedded to their former practises and so far from over-weening their present judgements See Apol. p 10. It is their secoÌ„d golden rule by which they walked that upon discovery of more light they are most willing to open their eyes upon it and let it in And therefore you A. S. have done very ill to discourage them as much as in you is from that sweetnesse of spirit that hath appeared in all their writings and carriages But our main answer to this your Consideration which makes it a grosse inconsideration if not untruth is this That the Assembly of themselves are not to conclude things by a meer plurality of votes if you dare beleeve the Ordinance of Parliament whose words are To conferre and treat amongst themselves of such matters and things touching and concerning the Liturgie Oâ—â—â—in for the calling of the Assembly Page 4.5 Discipline and Government of the Church of England or the vindication and clearing of the doctrine of the
same from all false aspersions and misconstructions as shall be proposed unto them by both or either of the said Houses of Parliament and no other and to deliver their opinions and advices of our touching the matters aforesaid as shall be most agreeable to the word of God to both or either of the said Houses from time to time in such manner and sort as by both or either of the said Houses of Parliament shall be required And in case of difference of opinion among the said Divines they shall present the same together with their reasons thereof to the Houses of Parliament Which words besides confutation of your pluralitie of voyces doe more then allow so much as is done in the Apologeticall Narration that being but a narration of past things A. S. his second Consideration Whether in taking such resolutions they should not consequently resolve themselves to quit the Assembly and to appear as parties M. S. The antecedent was denied before on the first Consideration therefore the consequence is destroyed And for the consequence or Proposition it selfe of the five Ministers quitting the Assembly and to appeare as parties for setting forth the Apologie I utterly dislike your motion as striking at the worthy Commissioners of Scotland as if they likewise should quit the Assembly for replying to the Apologie Men of a far better spirit then you are And though they be somewhat ingaged in a setled Presbytery yet carry themselves more sagely and moderatly then many of our own men an honour for them and a shame for us A. S. His fourth Consideration and for the third vanisheth upon our answer to the first and second Whether this Apologeticall Narration was necessary when yee found the calumnies mistakes mis-apprehensions of your opinions and mists that had gathered about you or were rather cast upon your persons in your absence begin by your presence againe and the blessing of God upon you to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for your selves and cause M. S. Yea it was For look but to the next full period afore and you shall find that this you repeat as touching that scattering and vanishing of mists doth but relate to the people and only to some of them viz. Those that professe or pretend the power of godliness These mens serene spirits onely were the beams that began to scatter the mists And therefore the Apologists speak distinctly and punctually and not indefinitely as you in the words you seem to quote viz. they say that they found many mark many of those mists not all and did but begin to scatter as you your selfe repeat The Apologists say They did but begin to scatter For in the apprehension of the Apologists their motion was like the lowrings of an inconstant morning the mists ascend and anon descend and by and by ascend and turn into a Scottish-mist as the Englist Proverb is That will wet an Englishman to the skin The mist went up by the hils but as the other Proverb is down by the Mils they turned into rain Apo. pag. 1 What mean else those words of the Apologie Our ears have been so filled with a sudden and unexpected noyse of confused exclamations in the interpretation of most reflecting on us that awakened thereby we are inforced to anticipate a little that discovery of our selves which we otherwise resolved to have left to time And those words of the Apologie Apol. p. 27. Whereas your silence upon all the forementioned grounds hath been by the ill interpretation of some imputed either to our consciousness of the badness and weakness of our cause or to our inability to maintain what we assert in difference from others c. And those words of the Apologie Apol. p. 31. Since the change of times from our exile we have indured that which to our spirits is no less grievous the opposition and reproach of good men even to the threatning of another banishment No doubt but the Apologisers know what they say and what they can say if called to speak out Besides if the people had let them alone should seem some Ministers would not O it was an unhappy Anticipation O if the will of God had been to have prevented it that in the very nick before the Assembly met that two Books should forestall the Market the one penned by a learned Scot and the other by a learned English-man that set the tongues of men so a wame First to vomit out upon the five Ministers Tenet and next to asperse their persons before the Assembly had made one Syllogisme Hinc illae lachrymae Hence the Apologie poor meek thing was forced to speak and thereupon A. S. so fiercly breathed I had almost said brayed out against it so many bitter words A. S. tels us in this his 4th Consideration of the honour the Parliament shâ—wed the Apologists in calling them to be members of the Assembly which was enough to justifie their persons from all aspersions without any Apologie M. S. To this we answer That they and their friends will ever acknowledge the Honourable Parliaments great respect to them And so much the more in these times wherein great A. S. and little c. do so labour to render them odious But I think I should not cross the sense of the Parliament if I should not make it an universall major proposition That all whom the Honourable Parliament shall call to be members of the Assembly are ipso facto vindicated from all aspersions and so to conclude that all Episcopall Prelaticall men that in life and practise have been if they should be called to be of the Assembly were eo nomine vindicated from all aspersions I am sure de facto that some very learned men were called by the sweet indulgence of the honourable Parliament for the common good to be Members of the grave Assembly who since upon better knowledge of them are by the Parliament purged out of the Assembly a good ridde the Assembly is the better for their absence and some are at Oxford see how terse they be and some in prison see how their membership of the Assembly have vindicated them Be sure of it that the choice of men for the Assembly was to find men good not to make them so And two worthy Parliament men of a County may not know at first all the faults in every Town or the lint on every black coat And therefore since that the worthy Parliament hath well brusht some If the Parliament put never so much honour upon the five Ministers in calling them to the Assembly yet since many have aspersed them or some laboured how to make them odious to Kingdoms and Nations and who but the order of A. S. mainly instigating And therefore this fully answers to your last Quere in your fourth Consideration Whether this Apologie was necessary after the first cloud was neer over every night must be cleared by a new rise of the Sun A. S. his 5th
of power to the Assembly run in this strain To deliver their opinions and advices as should be most agreeable to the word of God Do's any man desire the opinion and advice of another in any matter that concerns him without any intention of considering or judging of them But A. S. is as cunning as A. C. and would fain commend his care and tendernesse over the Parliament Sect. 9. in the things of their honour and peace by insinuating unto them a non-vocation from God to doe any thing with their judgments and understandings in matters of Religion but all things without exception with their hand and power that the Assembly whether out of their judgments or affections shall propose or dictate unto them A. S. I believe is a brother of the stronger side of the Assembly otherwise it is every whit as much to be feared that he would have Arminianiz'd as much if not far more then the Apologists have done But if the Parliament hath no calling from God to judge of matters between the Apologists and their Brethren the Assemblers I would willingly know who hath or whether it be reasonable that the Apologists matters yet remaining undecided and unjudged between them and their Brethren should suffer as men convicted only because their adversaries and accusers the Brethren yee wot of are more in number then they and will needs continue adversaries to them Our Saviours testimony concerning himselfe and his own cause was a thousand times more authentique and valid then the testimony of never so many men take the best of the whole generation is in theirs and yet he said If I beare witnesse of my felfe my witnesse is not true Joh. 5.31 That is it is not formally or in a legall interpretation true it is not true upon any such termes but that you may reasonably wave it if you apprehend that you have grounds to do it But saith he there is another that beareth witness of me c. The testimony of a thousand men in a case which equally or though it bee with some inequality concernes themselves is of no more validitie or authoritie then of a particular man in a case relating onely to himselfe Yea a good mans conscience in matters relating unto himselfe is never in more danger of suffering then in a crowd concern'd in the same manner with him It is the saying of one that etiam ex timidissimis animalibus acris multitudo cogi potest that is you may make a fierce company of the fearfullest creatures that are if you put enough of them together so frequent experience sheweth that etiam ex aequissimis hominibus iniqua multitudo cogi potest you may make a bad assembly of the best men Besides Sect. 10. A.S. himself affirms p. 38. That to be both Judge and Party in one cause cannot be granted to those that have no authoritative power one over another and that Par in Parem non habet imperium Therefore why should the Apologists fall in judgement by the hand of those that are parties and but equall to them Again It is his own reasoning pag. 45. If all Churches were equall as for ought I know or that A. S. alledgeth to the contrary they are there can neither be superiours nor inferiours and consequently no obedience or disobedience And if Justice consisteth not in an Arithmeticalls but Geometrical proportion which is his own saying pag. 70. and somewhat more rationall and less Presbyteriall then most of it's fellows are then is there no reason that pereiâ—ptoriness of vote how Arithmetically so ever priviledged but weight and worth of argument should carry it against them Which how it may fall when God shall cancell or reverse the Sciptures that now are and make a new revelation of himself unto the world I know not but whilest these stand confident I am that they will never so fall But why the man should deny the Parliament a calling to judge of matters between the Apologists their Brethren Sect. 11. when as every other man in the Kingdome hath a calling yea and somewhat more then a calling a speciall and weighty necessity to do it though not after the same manner in respect of the consequence of their judgement I see as little reason as I do for twenty and ten things more asserted by him Would A. S. have even the meanest of men to sing obedience and submission to the Assembly without their understandings Alas they could make no melodie in their hearts unto God with such a singing Nor would the song be either honourable or comfortable to the Assembly it self if themselves and others would but please to bestow a few serious thoughts upon it The glory of a Synod lies not so much in the strength of their conclusions as of their premisses nor is it any thing worthy to be presumed in comparison of what it is to be known to be wise and upright men Me thinks an Assembly of conscientious and learned men should rather count it a prophanation of their conclusions and resolves then otherwise to have them swallowed without chewing to have them subscribed and consented unto only in such a way and upon such terms as fools are wont to believe subscribe and consent unto all things But 5. To make the Apologists out of love with so much as looking towards the Parliament for any relief from them against the severe devotion of their Brethren Sect. 12. in case they vote contrary to them under which hope A. S. injoyes himself with much contentment hee tells them that by such a course or expectation they will joyn themselves with the Arminians of whom he is pleased to tell this Story That hoping the civill Magistrate would have been for them they gave this Directive or Decisive power unto him and afterwards repented themselves when they found him against them Leaving the truth of the Story upon the credit of the Relator I answer 1. That Jesus Christ was never the more a sinner for being numbred by the Jews amongst transgressours or for being crucified btween two thieves Nor are the Apologsts or men of their judgement ever the more culpable or blame-worthy for being bound up in the same bundle of condemnation with Delinquents by their adversaries Quis enim landaverit hostem 2. Neither did Paul count it any disparagement to him Sect. 13. to preach that Jesus Christ was the Son of God because the Devill had preached the same Doctrine before him Nor doth A. S. himself think himself ever the more a Papist because the Papists as himself confesseth afterwards pag. 18. believe all that he believeth though for my part I think any man as good a Protestant as himself that believe that much as he And pag. 64. in his 18th reasonless Reason against a toleration of men better then himself he insinuates this as a choice commendation of his Presbyterial Government that in it their Churches are not exposed unto the calumnies of
whether in Church or State may be their own carvers and serve themselves of the estates liberties and lives of those that are under them how and when as oft as they list And why doe you not submit to the decisive judgment of the King in all controversies depending between you and him if that be your doctrine For the third inconvenience so called I shall be your debtour to tell me plainly and distinctly what power more your government giveth to a thousand Churches over one then to a Tinker or the Hangman over a thousand I doe not remember where either your selfe or any of your party have calculated the proportion but I well remember a saying in Charron That every humane proposition hath equall authoritie Tout proposition humane a autant d'autherite quel'autre si la raison n'on fait la d fference Charion de sagâ—sse Plus credendiâ— est assertioni alicujus simplicis non authoâ—izati excellenter in Scripturis eruditi quam declarationi Papae if reason make not the difference and another of Gerson much commended by Protestant Authors though the Author of it Pontificiall The saying of a simple man and no wayes authoriz'd if he be well seen in the Scriptures is rather to be beleeved then the Popes own determination But A. S. what makes you thinke for I can easily guesse what makes you say that the government of the Apologists gives no more power to a thousand Churches over one then to a Tinker or Hangman over a thousand Vbi uando quibus testibus did this government or any son it hath ever make any such comparison or so farre honour either your Tiâ—ker or Hungman as to make them quall in power to a thousand Churches And yet I suppose if a man should say that the dust in the ballance hath as much life in it as the Sunne it would be no disparagement to this excellent and glorious creature because the excellencie of it doth not stand in any degrees or superiority of life above any other creature but in the aboundance of light which it hath and the height of its situation and the service abtenesse of it to the world by means of both In like manner if it be supposed which I think upon what hath been delivered may very reasonably be supposed that the glory and excellencie of Churches doth not stand in any power or authority that one hath over another or many over one but in other farre more rich and holy and honourable endowments relations and qualifications it can be no prejudice or disparagement unto ten thousand of them to say they have no more authority over one then A. S. his Tinker or Hangman hath over them Therefore if A. S. his admired peece of Church-policie hath no greater commendation then to serve for preventing such Inconveniences as this the world needs make no great lamentation over it though it were in the condition of Rachels children Matth. 2.18 when she wept for them and would not be comforted Some other inconveniences there are wherein A. S. findes the Government which he opposeth tardie and thinkes he sets a crown of glory upon the head of his Presbytery in vindicating the innocencie of it in respect of such guilt But alas he washeth off this guilt with blood or with water fouler then it as hath been shewed and condemneth his government in that wherein he mainly alloweth it The guilt is innocencie in respect of the purgation There is one inconvenience formerly opened and insisted upon in this chapter very incident to Presbytery the conscience whereof me thinks should make all the sons of that way rather to cover and compassionate then to complain or cry out of any inconvenience they either see or rather think they see in another Chap. 5. Whether the Apologists and men of their judgement may lawfully and without danger or prejudice to the State be tolerated and whether A. S. his reasons to the contrarie be of sufficient weight to perswade either to the banishment crushing or suppressing of them in any kind HE that hath read the precedent part of this discourse and doth though but with the lowest degree of impartialitie consider what hath been argued between the two wayes Presbytery and Apologisme cannot lightly but mourne over the title of this chapter and think him to be a man of iron entrails that should give occasion to such a Question as is there propounded Suppose the opinion maintained in the latter part of the second Chapter were wav'd and such a coercive power in matters of Religion as A. S. contends for allowed in the Magistrates hand yet that any man should plead for the drawing of this sword against those men who first have such a considerable strength if not of evidence yet of reason for what they practise and professe secondly have a like if not a more considerable strength against that way of government which they cannot submit to Thirdly are by their fiercest adversaries and opposites themselves acknowledged ten times over for very pious godly and learned men Fourthly have been at least the generalitie of them and so continue men of the most affectionate and withall the most effectuall activitie and forwardnesse to promote the great cause of Religion Parliament and Kingdome Fifthly are as deep in or if you will as much out of their estates rateably for the support of this cause as any other sort of men whatsoever Sixthly have many of them such as were meet for such a service adventur'd their persons and lives in the face of the rage and furie of the common enemie continuing still in the same engagements Yea seventhly and lastly have some of them exposed themselves to more danger and harder termes from the adverse party then ordinary in case they should prevaile by a publick vindication of the cause of the Parliament in print from the Scriptures and that before any man of differing judgment from them in Church affairs appeared in the cause upon such termes that any man I say on this side of malignancie should consult the sorrow trouble disgrace suppression ruine of men so holy so harmlesse of such eminent desert in the cause of Religion State Kingdome me thinkes should exceed the line of humanity and be thought some inspiration or suggestion from the great enemy of mankind Neverthelesse if either God Reason the peace or safety of the Kingdome require the sorrows or sufferings of these men I make no question but they will be willing to dispense with all considerations whatsoever that stand up to plead their immunitie and will with Isaac patiently suffer themselves to be bound yea and to be offered up in sacrifice also if need be Onely their humble request and suit is that they may not be sacrificed upon the service of the ignorance vain surmises needlesse jealousies bitter suggestions whether of a few or of many Better a thousand times is it that such distempers as these though found in millions of men