his Majesties Message and the Parliaments Answer and stand amazed that such a profession of zeale for God should ever bee found in conjunction with such unfaithfulnesse amongst Brethren for thus stands the case The King having set up his Standard at Notingham set out severall Proclamations and Declarations whereby the Parliaments actions were declared treasonable and their persons Traytors did send a Message to his Houses of Parliament 25 August 1642. for a personall Treaty whereunto the two Houses of Parliament sent an answer which because it is short and pertinent to the present case is here set downe verbatim The answer of the Lords and Commons to his Majesties Message of the 25. of August 1642. May it please your Majesty THe Lords and Commons in Parliament assembled having received your Majesties Message of the 25. of August doe with much griefe resent the dangerous and distracted state of this Kingdome which we have by all meanes endeavoured to prevent both by our severall advices and petitions to your Majesty which have been not onely without successe but there hath followed that which no ill counsell in former time hath produced or any Age hath seene namely Those severall Proclamations and Declarations against both the Houses of Parliament whereby their Actions were declared treasonable and their Persons Traytors And thereupon your Majestie hath set up your Standard against them whereby you have put the two Houses of Parliament and in them this whole Kingdome out of your protections so that untill your Majestie shall recall those proclamations and Declarations whereby the Earle of Essex and both Houses of parliament and their adherents and assistants and such as have obeyed and executed their commands and directions according to their duties are declared Traytors or otherwise Delinquents And untill the Standard set up in pursuance of the said Proclamations be taken downe your Majestie hath put us into such a condition that whilst we so remaine we cannot by the fundamentall priviledges of Parliament the publique trust reposed in us or with the generall good and safety of this Kingdome give your Majestie any other answer to this Message John Brown Cler. Parliam H. Elsing Cler. Parl. D. Com. This Answer of the parliament occasioned severall expresses mutually to passe betweene the King and the Parliament and amongst the rest this Answer to his Majesties Message of the 11th of Septemb. 1642. as appeared in the 586. and 587. pages of the booke of Declarations printed by Authority in which very Answer they doe professe themselves in no capacity to treat with the King whilst his Standard was up his Proclamations and Declarations unrecalled whereby the Parliament is charged with Treason and having humbly advised him what he should doe upon the performance whereof they invite him to his great Councell being the only meanes of a Treaty with hope of successe and in pursuance of that very resolution of theirs not to treat with his Majesty untill he had recalled his Proclamations and Declarations against his Parliament they have made that one of the foure Bills which were sent to be signed by his Majesty in order to a Treaty Now let Heaven and earth God and man judge of your unfaithfulnesse in the businesse in hand You tell the people that the Parliament was once for a personall Treaty with the King why should they now be against it and hide from the people the termes upon which they were for it have the Parliament forsook their primitive principles or your selves hath the King recall'd those Proclamations and Declarations yea or no hath hee given satisfaction for blood and security to the peace of the Kingdome yea or no If not would you have the Parliament betray their trust break their Covenant treat as Traytors doe the Parliament forsake their principales no Though Israel play the har lot yet let not Judah offend We know your objection the Parliament did admit of a Treaty since that time it is true but have you not read what David did in a case of necessity when hee was a hungry the shew-bread which at other times was unlawfull for him to eare was lawfull then The life of the Kingdome then in danger provoked the love of the Parliament to forget themselves to save the Nation but is the case now as it was then piety humanity will allow a man to treat yea begge for his life at the hand of his enemy in power to destroy him though the principles of either will not admit the like submission in another case Again though they did treat yet did they not forsake the principles of humanity or the rules of Justice rather then they would betray their trust break their Covenants enslave our just liberty into the hands of tyranny They broke up the Treaty and resolving to sacrifice themselves in the Kingdomes service committed themselves to Gods providence who succeeded their desires acccordingly for Gods love courage and constancie in a good cause You tell us there are some things which properly concerne the Kingdom of England their rights Lawes and liberties But why do you stop there why do you not proceed in declaring your resolutions not to intermeddle with such things why do you notwithstanding this acknowledgment interpose in things concerning the Kingdome of England their rights lawes and liberties as in the disposall of the Kings person while remaining in this Kingdome in the 7th page of your papers concerning the Covenant and Treaty in the Kings negative voyce page the 18th of this Answer in the businesse of the Militia page the 20. in the disbanding of our Armies page 21. in conferring titles of honour page 22. the revenews of the Crown page 5 c. Nay why have you cast such glosses senses and interpretations upon the Covenant and Treaty which being granted confounds the interest of England with the Kingdome of Scotland for these are your words in the 5th and 6th pages of your papers concerning the Covenant and Treaty Vnlesse we lay aside the Covenant Treaties Declarations of both Kingdomes and three yeares conjunction in this warre neither the one Kingdome nor the other must now look back what they might have done SINGLY before-such a strict union But look forwards what is fittest to be done by both JOYNTLY for the common good of both c. And again pag. the 7. of these papers If the disposall of the Kings Person mentioned in the vote of both Houses be intented for the good peace and security of both Kinghomes then it should not be done without the mutuall advice and consent of both By the first of these expressions do not your argument stand thus If we must not lay aside the Covenant Treaties Declarations of both Kingdomes and three yeares conjunction in this warre neither the one Kingdome nor the other SINGLY but both JOYNTLY must heareafter act for the good of both But we must not lay aside the Covenant c. Therefore neither the one
severall alterations therein which were principally in matters that did concern the neare union of the Kingdomes Propositions were sent to the King long before the time you speak of so that surely the Parliament of England did endeavour the peace of the kingdome before our Scotch brethren put them upon it you would make us beleeve that you alone minde the peace safety of the Kingdome of England as if your own interest was forgotten and ours remembred pure love unmixed friendship if the Houses would not so suddenly concurre with you to send the Propositions again we do presume they had reason for it neither do we conceive that the Scotch Commissioners have cause of offence if the Houses did not presently act upon their first motion being not Commissioners to direct the Parliament of England if they thought fit to make severall alterations we think fit to acquiesce in their judgements having chosen them to judge for us neither can we presume their least neglect of those matters which do near concern the union of the Kingdomes though perhaps with reason enough their judgment and yours may not concurre in those things it is likely they were carefull to maintain a distinction and prevent a confusion of both Kingdomes interest they would avoid an occasion of your claming from the new Propositions something like a negative voyce and right of joynt consent with this Kingdome in all things in relation between the King and the Kingdomes of England and Ireland which heretofore you have taken from the Covenant and Treaty Brethren religion teacheth contentednesse and the doctrine of Community is reckoned in England among the novelties for which we beleeve there will be no tolleration It may be the two kingdomes may not think fit that though we are all of one language under one King in one Religion yea in one Covenant yet that we might be altogether one as was once the wish of one of your honest and honourable Commissioners would you not have the honour of the Kings of England preserved in their Royall Title to two Kingdomes of England and Scotland and not that two should become one although we heartily desire to be one with you one in religion one in affection and one in assistance yet let us remaine two Kingdomes though we hold parity of interests in things spirituall and desire to be one with you in Christ and one in the Spirit yet like united Israel Covenanted Israel of old in their dividing of the Land of Canaan among their Tribes let you and we rejoyce in our distinct portion love one another cleave together and be content let Tweed divide but nothing else Brethren may be brethren without community in each others Patrimonie Again you urge that it was agreed upon betwixt the Kingdomes that the same Propositions should be presented again to his Majestie at his comming to Holdenby the performance wherof being delayed by the Houses for divers moneths you did wair patiently yet upon a sudden they did appoint a peremptory day for sending the Propositions to his Majesty First you had notice of the day and were earnestly prest unto the thing and the cause of your delay your owne consciences can tell better than we whether it was not by way of designe yet neverthelesse before you charged the Parliament with delayes now you blame them for their haste why should brethren be so froward such relations inhebits wranglings Secondly did not both Parliaments agree that those very Propositions that were sent to Newcastle should againe be sent to the King If so what shew of reason can be imagined why you should not though upon the sudden concurre with the sending them since they could not be altered Brethren le ts have fair play above board Again in the same page you affirm thus that finding no successe in that way of sending Propositions to the King and insisting upon his positive answer thereunto without giving any reason for the justice of our desires or hearing any Proposition from his Majesty we did in November last propose to the Honourable Houses and with much earnestnesse desire that their might be a personall Treaty with his Majesty here at Lond. it being in all probability the best meanes to obtain a peace First whereas you appropriate the successelesnesse of sending Propositions to the King to your not giving reasons for the justice of yours desires we demand Did not one of your selves rally a whole army of arguments and reasons against the Kings refusall to signe the Propositions at Newcastle in a Rhetoricall speech before him to that purpose professing among many other motives that upon his Majesties refusing the Propositions both kingdomes will be constrained for their mutuall safety to agree and settle religion and peace without him And moreover there was added If your Majesty reject our faithfull advice and lose England by your wilfulnesse your Majesty will not be permitted to come and ruine Scotland Further pressing him thus We know no other remedy to save your Crown and Kingdomes than your Majesties assenting to the Propositions Yet now you are pleased to say that not any reason hath been given for the justice of your desires If your desires were not just why did you press him to grant them But secondly is the case thus indeed you were not alwayes of this opinion as you confesse page 6. Brethren let 's make a little use of this We see now what reason there is of a brotherly forbearance of varieties of judgment yea and of the same persons though changing their judgments over and over yea even in things civill much more religious being more enigmaticall than these by farre you were against the Kings personall treaty with the Parliament at London now you are for it Suppose the Parliament of England hath not yet attained to your new light beare with them a while till your reasons prevail You tell us that indeed heretofore his Maiesties presence might have bred divisions and continued our troubles and when his Maiesty desired to come hither from Oxford with freedom and safety it was thought unfit and denyed by the Houses and the Commissioners from Scotland but that argument now hath no force at all for the case of affaires the Kings condition and ours which were given for reasons in that answer to his Maibsty are quite altered from what they were then the King had Armies in the fields and Garrisons and strong holds to returne unto now he hath none of these Brethren were these all the reasons then given why you could not admit of a personall Treaty with his Majesty at London viz. because then the King had Armies in the field and Garrisons and strong holds to returne unto had it been our assertion as it is yours we should have feared that divine hand of Justice which met with Ananias and Saphira Acts 5. And that all might see your dealings herein we have here added your owne
yet but the meere-shadow of Presbiterian Government and so are fit for nothing more let them be first instructed and then commanded The Parliament are English men themselves who know the disposition of their own Country-men to be such that they will freely run when they are drawne with the cords of men viz. reason and love but are extreame head-strong in case of compulsion they could never endure the bramble should raigne over them when the Kingdome is taught in the substance of Presbytery its likely the meere shadow Will flie away Thirdly It may be the Parliaments designe may be first to feed the Kingdome with substantials of Religion the finest of the flower the milke and honey of the Land of Canaan viz the great Doctrines of faith towards God and repentance from dead works and untill the time of some proficiency therein the shadow of Discipline may be sufficient the substance whereof is but a meere shadow in comparison of these our late Prelates whilst they so hotly contended for Discipline and government in pretence of suppressing a deformity and multiformity of Heresies and Sects Errour Scandall c. Did destroy and crucifie RELIGION and her children when they bowed the knee to DISCIPLINE crying haile Master and kissed it we hope the Parliament will not permit such a Faction againe Whereas you say The Parliament hath granted in their Propositions a liberty to all sorts of Service and Worship of God an opening a doore to Atheisme to all Religions to Error Scandall Schisme Heresie c. we reply Brethren your language reflects upon your descent and your expressions do disparage your honourable employment as Commissioners of State your pens seeme to be rather steered by the hands of some of the late scandalous Pamphlet writers then of the Scotch Commissioners You callumniate boldly but will any thing stick let 's observe your charge The Parliament you say desires the settlement of a vast deformity or multiformitie of Heresies and Sects and grants a liberty for all sorts of Service and Worship of God yea and the opening a doore to liberty of Errour Scandall Schisme dishonouring God opposing the Truth bindering Reformation and seducing others and all this is aggravated in so much as it is done after a most sacred and solemne League and Covenant to suppresse all these according to the Word of God and the example of the best reformed Churches Brethren two things you should have done before you can make this good you know that Religion and the Covenant requires the suppression of these things according to the Word of â—od and the example of the best reformed Churches First then you should have shewed by the Word of God what are these Errors Heresies Scandals c. which you say the Parliament desires a settlement of Secondly You should have proved the methods and waies the rules and directions of the Word of God for the suppression of these and the Parliaments practice in opposition to that and then put it unto the judgement of ingenious men to determine the case have you done this in the eye of the Kingdome before whom you have slandered the Houses of Parliament if not were you not Commissioners of State we would tell you more plainly your deserts but for the present we say no more but this If any man among you seeme to be Religious and bridleth not his tongue much more his pen but deceiveth his owne soule this mans Religion is in vaine Be it known unto you that we verily beleeve that the things you speake of much more the toleration of them and most of all the setling the same are the first-borne of abominations unto our present Parliament and in the meane while we clearely discerne that while you pretend to plead with such imparalleld zeale against Errours Heresie c. you sticke not to abuse the repute and blemish the good name of a whole representative Kingdome at once violating the most plaine evident and obvious rules shall we say of Christianity yea of common justice and honesty and therefore we tell you as you tell the Parliament and take notice of it Certainly 〈…〉 mocked You tell us page 7th that it is far fr 〈…〉 ions that pious and peaceable men should be troubled because in every thing 〈◊〉 cannot conforme themselves to Presbyterian Government for you say you did never oppose such an indulgenâ—e to their Persons as is agreeable to the Word of God may stand with the publique peace and is not destructive to the Order and Government of the Church yet you do from your soules aâ—hor such a generall and vast toleration as is exprest in the Proposition c. Who shall judge of pious and peaceable men in England the Parliament of England or the Scotch Commissioners Againe who shall determine what kind of iudulgence is agreeable to the Word of God may stand with the publique peace and is not destructive to the Order and Government of the Church established in England the Parliament of England or the Scotch Commissioners what meane you by indulgence to their Persons such a kind of indulgence of their persons as pious and peaceable men may have in Spaine Rome Turkie among even Infidels themselves or of a better consideration If we may plough with your owne heifer we may quickly expound your riddle you would not have a toleration of any Sectaries and we see who they are by your large Schedule page 12 Anabaptists Antinomians Arminians Familists Erastians Brownists Separatists Libertines Independents Nullifidians Seekers and the new Sect of Shakers can any man in the least degree withstand your Presbytery and not be rankt among these Sectaries except the Episcopalians for which it seemes we shall have a toleration Cum privilegio Scotico Brethren we are not yet baptized into the spirit of Scotch Presbytery there we are Anabaptists we cannot submit unto the Lawes thereof there we are Antinomians holding that we have power and liberty of will therein here wee are Arminians neither doe wee judge it sinfull though we should act contrary to your Presbytery there we are Familists perhaps we judge that there is not so plaine and cleare a Forme of Church-government and Rule of Discipline to be found out in the word of God as some do suppose and therefore do hold that Christian Magistrates may establish such a discipline it being not contrary to the word of God as they shall judge meet and that we ought to submit unto it here we are Erastians and yet wee judge that we ought to come out of Babylon and decline corrupt and superstitious worshipping of God there we are Brownists and Separatists judging our selves free from receiving the law of Church government from the Scotch Oracle here we are Libertines neither will we depend upon your judgements as infallible here we are Independents extreamly doubting your judgements therein not questioning our salvation though we have no faith therein here we are Nullifidians being extreamly in the dark
that it might please him to incline the hearts of the honourable City of London and all the Inhabitants thereof to throw by all unhappy differences and jealousies whatsoever and to joyne together in the wayes of God and to give them light from his word and power from his spirit in a due and Gospel way to suppresse error heresie blasphemy and whatsoever is contrary to sound doctrin and to maintain in their several places and callings the undoubted interest of their native Kingdome for all which with simplicity and integrity of heart quaesumus audias nos Domine But to returne to answer our brethren If the King be not the only man with whom the peace is to be made what other adversary doth appeare at all and indeed you often tell us that now the war is ended pag. 10. Againe the war is ended pâ—g 21. There is no enemy to sight with Ibid. Againe the war is at an end and no visible enemy in the kingdome Againe now Armies are no more usefull Ibid. Then it will follow First that the Parliament hath not broken their Treaty in any Pacification or agreement with the enemy without you the peace being got by the sword and not by a Treaty therefore you ought to recant your charging them in this particular 2. If the war be ended we have no more to do with the Scotch Commissioners for we know no Covenant Treaty or Compact with them that they should intermeddle with us in the government of our kingdom nor we with theÌ„ in the government of theirs We thank you for your help for we shal remember our own duty to acknowledge you and leave it to your ingenuity to remember both our ancient and late respects unto you we have given you 200000. l. besides all other things we need not name them in part of payment 200000 pounds more we are to give you we pray your Christian and brotherly forbearance with us you shall find us honest and without guile in our dealings with you The next thing you complaine of is the omitting the proposition concerning the City of London c. The City of London to speak without vanity hath not come far short of the kingdom of Scotl. in their deserts from the Parl. of England And we make no questioÌ„ but upoÌ„ the faithâ—ul cotinuance of their due respects to the Parl. of Engl. and the interest thereof whereof we have hopes if but from this time God blesse their eares from the guilded rhetorick of pretended devot oÌ„ and deceitfull tongues that they do not neglect their owne interest the Parl. of Engl. will not forget their labour of love and their perseverance therein nor yet remember every character of humane frailty that hath been upon them the best Parliament hath had its spots as well as the best City Next you complain of the proposition for taking away the Court of Wards c. Hath not the King consented to that and is not this beyond your line Touching the Proposition for the sale and disposal of the lands of Deans Chapters You have some what to say which is only this That you have alwayes heard that those lands were reserved by the Houses for the maintenance of Ministers and the disposall of it otherwais would discourage faithfull Pastors and give occasion to the people where Minsters are wanting for lack of maintenance to follow after Sectaries and Tub preachers It seems you are very inquisitive about the disposall of lands in England we are not so dim sighted but we see and observe how quick you are of hearing and diligent in harkning after matters of that nature The disposal of the lands of Deans Chapters otherwise theÌ„ for the maintenance of Ministers would discourage faithful Ministers Perhaps no more then the disposall of Bâ—shops lands have done which are security for monys for our brethren of Scotland and if the Dean and Chapters lands had been so disposed of we beleeve you would have given us no occasion to have spoken to this point it is the desire and longing of our very souls that some effectuall course might be speedily thought upon by the Parliament for the comfortable incouragment and maintenance of faithfull Pastors yea and their widows and children that they may be delivered from that snare of dependence upon the benevolence and charity of their dull hearers and sometimes vitious patrons and benefactors But we referre the matter wholly to the Parliament and heartily desire their most possible expedition in that good work But before we leave this we desire you tel us the original and meaning of that profound word Tub Preachers we have formerly presumed if it had its rice in England it was from some of those learned Ballad singers in dishonour of Pulpit preaching who were bred up in the University of Newgate Should English Commissioners in Scotland have made any mention in their addresses to their Parliament of the opprobrious tearms of Red-shanks or Blew-caps it had reflected no smal disparagement upon those that employed them Such light expressions to say no more we did never observe to proceed from Commissioners of State before neither do we beleeve that Commissioners of the Indies bred up in Wigwams did ever use such scurrilous terms in all their motions to the Magistrates at Bostonbay in New-England For the conclusion of all you see down most of your desires and tender them unto the Parliament If you have any desires concerning your own kingdome wherein the Parliament of England may gratifie you without prejudice to the proper interest of England you may do well to tender them but we shâ—ll not trouble you to mediate for us with our own Parliament we desire you brethren once more before we leave you that you would remember that peace preserving passage in the Covenant Our severall places and callings you are exâ—ream apt to forget it therefore are we so bold to put you in mind so often of it you have set downe most of your desires but not all keepe the rest within you perhaps it is better at least for us that your desires should bee in your Hearts then in your Hands As for your intermedling with the four Bils sent by the Houses unto the King we say no more but had you been mindful of the bounds and limits of our solemn league and covenant viz. our severall places and callings you had spared your paines in that busines and your fig. leaves to cover that nakednesse hath been totn from you by a better hand Here we had thought to have taken our leaves but before we part we have three or four Queries to propound unto you and one request to make wherein if you will satisfie us in your next it will be an addition to our former engagements First whether that your publishing to the people the transactions between the Parliament and your selves without the Parliaments consent nay contrary to their expresse commands