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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A53346	Amsterdam: toleration, or no toleration in a discourse between conformists, non-conformists, papists, Anabaptists, Quakers, &c. In their own words, before a gracious king, about the extent of a Christian indulgence to all dissenters. By J.V.C.O. A friend to men of all religions.	J. V. C. O.	1663 (1663)	Wing O2A; ESTC R207624	19,722	59

errours you may if you will discountenance our truths Papists It 's true some practices against the State deserved this severity formerly but our peaceable behaviour may deserve an indulgence now Protestants Your behaviour may deserve an indulgence but not your principles you are so tied to the Supremacy at Rome that you cannot be true if you will be true to your own Profession to our Government Papists The Hugonots have an indulgence in France Protestants They have no more then they fought for though they have more then as appears by your several attempts to undermine their liberties you are willing they should have Papists It were no harm to indulge us if your Religion were true your truth would triumph over our falshood Protestants No people ever suffered an Enemy to settle in their Country that they might triumph over them An ill-affected person They have already what amounts to a toleration Protestants No the King indeed doth not force them to come over to our Religion because he thinks Religion must be perswaded and not forced yet he doth not allow the practice of their Religion he doth not compel them to come to us and he doth not suffer us to be seduced to come over to them The Indifferent Alas the Popish Religion is so ridiculous that to tolerate it publickly were to expose it Protestants Alas what is ridiculous to the wise is very pleasing to the vulgar who are the most part of mankinde and where they have one Proselyte to their Devotion they have ten to their pomp glory Papists The more danger of our Priests the more care should be taken by your Ministers Protestants But we must not let in the Wolves that the Shepherd may be careful Papists May it please your Majesty that we may live peaceably as your other Subjects and not be compelled to your profession though we enjoy not the liberty of our own King In the multitude of Counsellours there is safety We shall advise with our Nobility Clergy and Commons what may be done in your favour for to deal truely with you it is not my intention to exclude you from all share in the benefit of such an Act as the wisdome of our Parliament shall think fit to offer unto us for the ease of tender consciences VVe intend to abate the rigour of some Laws as not being able to endure that any of our Subjects should be put to death for their opinions in matter of Religion onely and indeed as we cannot in conscience own or indulge your way so we shall not punish your dissent from us any otherwise then with some marks of our displeasure for not closing with the established Religion Papists So pray God bless your Majesty Ill-affected persons If Popery be naught why are Papists suffered if not why are they punished Honest Protestants Though his Majesty suffers Papists as his liege people yet he suffers not Popery and yet he suffers not Papists without some marks of his displeasure Whisperer Why doth the King punish men for what is their conscience The Loyal He punisheth them not for their consciences which he knows not but for their outward actions which he knows he measureth their practice by the Law by which he is to judge and govern he referreth their consciences to God Non-conformists We humbly beseech your most excellent Majesty to allow us to enjoy our consciences and judgements in serving our God State We could grant your liberty as to your own practice but we must deny you the liberty of seducing others I will not punish you for being misled into errour but I must restrain you from spreading your errours I shall wink at your weakness but I shall punish wilfulness Their followers May our eyes but see our Teachers and we enjoy their faithful Labours Ch. Though his Majesty hath compassion on this seduced Age he intends not that the next Age should be seduced too Do you think in your Conscience that his Majesty may suffer that to be taught which he thinks is an errour E. Man How shall the poor men live L. P. No Church or State must allow maintenance to such persons as oppose the Order and Government of that Church or State P. M. Alas that such eminent men should be laid aside for indifferent things E. B. They are not laid aside for indifferent things but for that great fault of disobeying Authority which enjoyns those indifferent things The things commanded are indifferent Obedience to the Command about things indifferent is necessary what cloaths I wear what gestures I use is indifferent that I wear such cloaths and use such gestures as are commanded is necessary Non-conformists May it please your Majesty that we have liberty to joyn with our people in pure Worship and Ordinances giving good security that we neither speak nor do any thing publickly against the established order of the Kingdom S. O. As for those of you who living peaceably cannot conform through scruple and tenderness of misguided Conscience care may be taken that they modestly and without scandal perform their own devotion in their own way Anabaptists We are under a scandal of disobedience to Governours and turbulency but as we resolve in the fear of God to submit to your Government as far as lawfully we may so we desire your favour and indulgence Conformists and Non-conformists Your Principles have been so dangerous your practice so infamous here and in Germany your judgement and practice being so void of meekness modesty charity humanity and innocency that your errour is not thought venial nor your difference tolerable as arising by degrees to tumults seditions and contempt of all Christian Magistrates and Ministers King Nay but I hope there are some of my subjects of that Way who have sincerity to God-ward and charity to those Christians who in this differ from them for whom as long as they behave themselves soberly I have an equal kindness with the rest of my subjects without any respect of persons Quakers O King live for ever We do in love advise thee to remove the yoke from the servants of the Lord who desire nothing but to walk humbly with him and to tremble at his Word P. O. If you can agree upon a way to serve God and offer it to the State you may have protection from the King as far as your way is judged agreeable to truth as yet the world hath not seen what you desire and so know not what to grant you Seekers We desire to try all things and to hold fast that which is good and that nothing be imposed upon us Orthodox Nevertheless whereunto we have already attained let us walk by the same Rule let us minde the same things if in any thing ye be otherwise minded God shall reveal even this unto you Fifth Monarchy-men Why do you wait here on men while you should pray unto the Lord that he would hasten his Kingdome that the Saints may inherit the earth Orthodox We wait upon men

AMSTERDAM Toleration or no Toleration In a DISCOURSE BETWEEN CONFORMISTS NON-CONFORMISTS PAPISTS ANABAPTISTS QUAKERS c. In their own Words before a Gracious King about the extent of a Christian Indulgence to all Dissenters By J. V. C. O. A Friend to Men of all Religions Rom. 4.19 Let us follow the things that make for peace LONDON Printed in the year MDCLXIII TO All that are SPIRITED FOR An Universal Accommodation THat good people may know what Indulgence they are to look for here is the Judgement of the ablest of all Professions in ther own words concerning as much Favour as can be allowed men of different Perswasions Here you see what wise men have thought about Toleration here you see what wise men may look for and withal what all Parties will be contented with in order to that Peace and Settlement that may bless us and our Posterity AMSTERDAM Toleration or no Toleration King I Have sent for you my loving Subjects of all Professions to bear witness to the tenderness and compassion I have for all my good People of different Perswasions who live soberly and peaceably according to their several Apprehensions and to the care I have taken to compose Differences and Offences that I have found in this Kingdom by Impartiality or at least to allay mens Heats and Animosities so far as that notwithstanding their several Perswasions they might cement in a common Peace so much conducing to the happiness and welfare of this Nation Really the satisfaction of all sober men in the matter of Religion hath layn so much upon my Spirit that I have spared no time refused no pains to take in the Advice and Apprehensions of the most knowing in all Ways whereby a course might have been taken that would oblige all persons to joyn in a chearful Obedience to our Government and in an universal Endeavour for common Good It 's not unknown to the world with what patience I have heard the sentiments of all Parties since I came to England I have offered all that in Reason Honour and Conscience I can reserving onely what I cannot consent unto without an irrepairable injury to my own Soul the Church and my People And at last I put all difference in Church-Affairs and Religion to the free Consultation of a Convocation legally chosen the Results of whose Counsels as they include the Votes of all so I hoped they would have given satisfaction unto all What would you have me do more then I have done Chancellour Gentlemen the distempers of Religion which have too much disturbed the peace of this Kingdom is a sad Argument indeed it is a Consideration that would make every religious heart to bleed to see Religion which should be the strongest Obligation and cement of Affection and brotherly Love Kindness and Compassion made now by the perverseness of passionate and froward men the ground of all Animosity Hatred and Malice It was not so of old when one of the most ancient Fathers of the Church tells us That Love and Charity was so signal and eminent in the Primitive Christians that it even drew Admiration and Envy from their greatest Adversaries Vide inquiunt ut invicem se diligunt How would they look upon our sharp and virulent Contentions in the Debates of Christian Religion and the bloody Wars that have proceeded from those Contentions whilst every one pretended to all the marks which are to attend upon the true Church except onely that which is inseparable from it Charity to one another Really this Disquisition hath cost the King many a sigh many a sad hour when he hath considered the most irrepairable reproach the Protestant Religion hath undergone from the Divisions and Distractions which have been so notorious in this Kingdom What pains he hath taken to compose them after several Discourses with learned and pious Men of several Perswasions you may see by a Declaration he hath published upon that occasion by which you see his willingness to indulge all tender Consciences as far as lieth in his power We all hope that God will so bless the candour of his Majesty in the condescention he makes that all good people will return to that Unity and Unanimity which will make both King and People as happy as they can be in this world King That you may see that I am not guided by any single mans counsel fidelity and discretion in the management of the great matters of Religion and that I comply not in my Government with particular mens passions humours and private opinions I here meet you whom I look upon as the most knowing sober and moderate of the several Professions under my Government by whose discretion I hope I may be advised so as that I may be able to give all just satisfaction to all sober desires and allay and fix my good People to a due temperament to their own just content and mine Politician May it please your Majesty to reduce the various disagreeing Parties within this Kingdom which seem to render it an indigested mass of people to such a temperature as may compose all Affairs both Religious and Civil within your Majesties Dominions There are but three ways imaginable The first way is to raise one Party by the fall and ruine of all other Parties which if possible cannot be accomplished but by violent ways and means The second way is to think of such an Accommodation as by the mutual yeilding of the several Parties former differences may be abolished and all reconcilable Professors may be reconciled and such a comprehensive Coalition of all Interests be endeavoured as may take in and carry along the whole stream and strength of the three Kingdoms The third way is to indulge a Toleration to the weaker side whose strength a Charitable Connivence and Christian Indulgence may weaken when as a tougher Opposition may fortifie it a severe Imposition putting the despised and oppressed Party into such Combinations as may most enable them to get a full Revenge on those they count their Persecutors they being commonly assisted and encouraged with that vulgar pity and compassion which is allowed all that are said to suffer for their Conscience and Religion A course very agreeable in my opinion to that exact Policy which supports the most flourishing Kingdom of France c. and States of Holland in an admired Grandeur made up of Peace Plenty and Prosperity which we envy but cannot attain to King I must needs interrupt you and though I approve the faithfulness I cannot allow the prudence of your advice for you must all know that I am perswaded that in matter of Religion we must follow not so much what is most prudent as what is most pious not onely what is expedient but what is lawful not what seems best in reason of State but what seems best in the counsel of God and therefore before you proceed I must let you know that you must not insist on forraign Policies and Prosperity in this

whom the Lord hath appointed over his Kingdom in this world we wait upon the Lord for his Kingdom which is not of this world Roaring Boys Ranters and Dammers Here 's such a deal of do come let us eat and drink for to morrow we shall die the world hath been too long Priest-ridden King No more of that I 'll assure you that at the next Session of Parliament we shall provide severe Laws against that licentiousness and impiety which since the dissolution of Government we finde to our great grief hath over-spread the Nation Ch. Gentlemen of all Perswasions I pray hear what indulgence maybe allowed you Secretary to Papists What if you of the Catholick Way were discharged of all penalty for Recusancie to come to our Church save your incapacity of having any trust in Church or State provided that you were severely restrained both from speaking and publickly practising your Way Papists We 'll all submit As we do do not desire to be pressed to comply with your Ways so we desire not to press you to tolerate our Ways P. C. S. to Non-conformists If his Majesty and his Parliament shall think fit that you who cannot conform to all things established shall upon your peaceable behaviour enjoy Ordinances in your own Way what will you be willing to do for their satisfaction Non-conformists Any thing that in Reason or Conscience we may do Ch. Will you now you cannot assent or consent to all things in the Common-prayer yet use it as far as you can or come your selves with your followers to the place where it is used Mr. Baxter Dr. Bates c. It 's well known that as we do not absent our selves so we are not willing others should absent themselve from Common-Prayer L. B. L. Will you own the Ordination by Bishops in the way of the Church of England London-Ministers We have made it appear to the world in our Book called Jus divinum Ministerii that the Ordination by Bishops is valid Mr. Baxter p. 4. So eminent in Gods Graces and Gifts were the Bishops that their names will be precious whilst Christ hath on earth a Reformed Church Our Jewel our Usher our Davenant hath done so much against the Roman Usurpers that they will not be able to claw it off them to the last Moreover who knows not that most of the godly able Ministers of England since the Reformation did judge Episcopacie some of them lawful and some of them most fit and that before the late troubles c. the most through the Land did subscribe and conform to Episcopal Government as a thing not contrary to the Word of God So that it is evident that it is very consistent with a godly Life to judge Episcopacie lawful and just or else we should not have had so many learned and godly men of that minde L.B.W. Will you declare it unlawful upon any pretence whatsoever for any persons whether the Parliament or any other to assist the King or to endeavour any Reformation without his consent Mr. Jenkins First it 's a sin against Gods Ordinance Prov. 8.15 Secondly it 's a sin against the publick welfare they that are weary of Magistrates are weary of all the comforts and blessings of peace Thirdly it 's a sin against our own happiness Eccles 10.8 to resist the lawful Magistrate Good men will not be bad Subjects neither can evil men be good Subjects C. S. VVill you be contented to teach the people the necessary and undoubted Verities of Christian Religion declaring withal unto your people what influence such Doctrines ought to have upon their Lives and Conversations and stirring them up effectually as well by your examples as Doctrines to the practice of such Religious and Moral Duties as are the proper Results of the said Doctrines as Self-denial Contempt of the world Temperance Justice Obedience c. with a detestation of whatsoever is contrary to sound Doctrine Nonconf If we may but upon these terms enjoy the liberty of Gods Ordinance we shall think our selves obliged to bless God that we have seen your face S. D. For your part all ye the looser part of the people we desire you may offer what you agree upon among your selves which his Majesty will consider of in order to a publick Peace In the mean time you are wished to attend the publick Ordinances of God as far as you can in Conscience until an expedient may be sound in due time P. C. VVe shall enjoyn that there be nothing taught publickly but the great Truths wherein ye all agree and therefore we pray you attend upon publick Preaching and though you own not the men yet own the VVord not as the word of this or that man but as it is indeed the VVord of God Jesse Some may preach Christ out of envy and some out of contention but so Christ be preached we shall rejoyce and attend upon it Venning It is to be feared that they who turn their backs upon the Ordinance of God may turn their backs upon the God of Ordinances Anabaptists c. There are so many things in your Ordinances that we cannot like Orthodox There are many things I dislike in all places yet I frequent them which because they do not concern me I pass by peaceably without any further noise or disquiet VVe desire you onely to be present at the Ordinances of God and to submit to what is of God and to think as you please of what you see of man there All Moderate Men. VVe will be contented to attend the Ordinances of God in obedience to God and men onely we desire not to be urged to approve of what we cannot allow of H. If your practice be sober your judgements shall be at liberty Have you faith i. e. any private Opinion have it to your self in the sight of God onely forsake not the assembling of your selves together as the manner of some is but let me see you as ●he Primitive Christians meet with one accord in one place Fan. VVe desire so to do but onely we avoid mixt Assemblies L.B.C. If you will avoid mixt Assemblies you must avoid all Assemblies in the world Indeed as the Apostle saith we ought as far as it is possible to avoid all communion with unholy persons yet not altogether with the unholy in this world or with the covetous or extortioners for then must we needs go out of the world Fan. The desire of our soul is to walk according to that Rule wherefore Come ye out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord and touch not any unclean thing and I will receive you L.B.W. VVhat because you are enjoyned to come out from among Heathens will you leave us Christians too who own one God one Christ one Faith one Hope with you and look for one common salvation K. Are you who go under those several names of separation as Independents Anabaptists Quakers c. agreed upon one common way which you