this Appearance to do their ordinary Work of giving Money and be gone and leave the Business of the Kingdom as they found it For it was proposed that whatsoever Security we were to receive should be both Conditional and Reversionable That is First We should not be put into Possession of this new Charter be it what it will till after the death of His Majesty who now is whereas such a Provision is desirable and indeed necessary for us for this only reason that when that unfortunate hour comes we might not be in that Confusion unprovided of a Calm Setled and Orderly as well as a Legal Way to keep out Popery Whereas otherwise if we be to take Possession in that Minute it must either miscarry or be gotten by a War if it be true that Possession be Nine Points of the Law in other Cases it is in this the whole Ten and I should be very unwilling in such a Distraction to have no Sanctuary to fly to but a piece of Parchment kept in the Pells and to have this too as well as other Advantages in the Power and Possession of him in whose prejudice it was made this had been almost as good an Expedient to keep out Popery as the Bill which was thrown out that Parliament which provided that in the Reign of a King that should be a Papist the Bishops should chuse one another upon Vacancies Those Counsellors who put my Lord Chancellor upon this Proposal were either very slender Politicians themselves or else thought the Parliament so If Magna Charta and The Petition of Right had not been to take place till after the Decease of those Princes who confirmed them neither had the Barons shed their Blood to so good purpose nor the Members of the Parliament in Tertio Caroli deserved so Glorious an Imprisonment after it was ended The other Condition in this renowned Proposal is That all Provision and Security which is given us to preserve our Religion shall cease immediately whenever the Prince shall take a certain Oath to be penned for that purpose and I leave it to all thinking men to determine what that will avail us when we shall have a King of that Profession over us who shall not have so much Zeal for his Religion as he who is now the next successor hath but shall possibly prefer his Ambition and his desire to get out of Wardship before the Scruples of his Confessor and yet may afterwards by getting Absolution for and Dispensation from such Oaths and Compliance employ the Power he gets himself and the Security he deprives us of to introduce violently what Worship and Faith he pleases This Gracious Offer had the fatality to disguist one of the best Parliaments that ever Sate and the most Loyal so that laying it aside they fell upon the Succession the only thing they had then left and were soon after Dissolved leaving the Kingdom in a more distracted Condition than they found it and this can no way be composed but by mending the Polity so that whoever is King cannot be he never so inclined to it introduce Popery or destroy whatever Religion shall be established as you see in the Example of the Dutchy of Hanover whose Prince some fourteen Years since was perverted to the Roman Church went to Rome to abjure Heresie as they call the truth return'd home where he lived and Governed as he did before without the least Animosity of his Subjects for his Change or any endeavour of his to Introduce any in his Government or People and dying this last Spring left the Peaceable and undisturbed Rule of his Subjects to the next Successor his Brother the Bishop of Osnaburg who is a Protestant and this because the Polity of that Dukedom has been conserved entire for many years and is upon a right Basis and if our Case were so we should not onely be out of danger to have our Religion altered as I said before whoever is King but should in other things be in a happy and flourishing condition But I have made a long and tedious digression to answer your demands Now 't is time you assist me to find the Natural Cure of all our Mischiefs Doct. Stay Sir I confess my self to be wonderfully Edified with your discourse hitherto but you have said nothing yet of the Duke of Monmouth Eng. Gent. I do not think you desire it though you were pleased to mention such a thing for I suppose you cannot think it possible that this Parliament which is now speedily to meet by his Majesties Gracious Proclamation can ever suffer such a thing to be so much as Debated amongst them Doct. Sir you have no reason to take that for granted when you see what Books are Printed what great and Honourable Persons frequent him in private and countenance him in publick what shoals of the middle sort of people have in his Progress this Summer met him before he came into any great Town and what Acclamations and Bon-fires have been made in places where he lodged Eng. Gent. These things I must confess shew how great a Distemper the People are in and the great reason we have to pray God of his Mercy to put an end to it by a happy Agreement in Parliament But certainly this proceeds only from the hatred they have to the next Successour and his Religion and from the compassion they have to the Duke of Monmouth who as they suppose hath suffered banishment and dis-favour at Court at his Instance and not from any hopes of expectations that the Parliament will countenance any pretence that can be made in his behalf to the Succession Doct. It may be when we have discoursed of it I shall be of your mind as indeed I am enclined already But yet nothing in War is more dangerous than to contemn an Enemy so in this Argumentation that we use to secure our Liberties we must leave nothing unanswered that may stand in the way of that especially the Duke of Monmouth's Claim which is pretended to confirm and fortifie them for say some Men if you set him up he will presently pass all Bills that shall concern the Safety and Interest of the People And so we shall be at rest for ever Eng. Gent. Well I see I must be more tedious than I intended First then the reasoning of these men you speak of does in my apprehension suppose a thing I cannot mention without horrour which is That this Person should be admitted immediately to the Possession of the Crown to do all these fine Matters for otherwise if he must stay till the Death of our Soveraign who now Reigns which I hope and pray will be many years possibly these delicate Bills may never pass nor he find hereafter the People in so good a humour to admit him to the Reversion which if it could be obtain'd as I think it impossible Politically yet the Possession must be kept by a standing Army and the next Successour cannot
had no Yeomen but all are either Noble or Villains therefore the Lands must have been Originally given as they now remain into the hands of these Nobles But I will come to the Administration of the Government in these Countries and first say wherein they all agree or did at least in their institution which is That the Soveraign power is in the States assembled together by the Prince in which he presides these make Laws Levy Money Redress Grievances punish great Officers and the like These States consist in some places of the Prince and Nobility onely as in Poland and anciently in France before certain Towns for the encouraging of Trade procured Priviledges to send Deputies which Deputies are now called the third Estate and in others consist of the Nobility and Commonalty which latter had and still have the same right to Intervene and Vote as the great ones have both in England Spain and other Kingdomes Doct. But you say nothing of the Clergy I see you are no great friend to them to leave them out of your Politicks Eng. Gent. The truth is Doctor 〈◊〉 could wish there had never been any 〈◊〉 the purity of Christian Religion as alsâ—… the good and orderly Government of thâ—… World had been much better provideâ—… for without them as it was in the Apostâ—…lical time when we heard nothing 〈◊〉 Clergy But my omitting their Reveâ—…end Lordships was no neglect for I meaâ—… to come to them in order for you know that the Northern People did not bring Christianity into these parts but found it here and were in time converted to it so that there could be no Clergy at the first but if I had said nothing at all of this Race yet I had committed no Solecism in the Politicks for the Bishops and great Abbots intervened in the States here upon the same Foundation that the other Peers do viz. for their great possessions and the dependence their Tenants and Vassals have upon them although they being a People of that great sanctity and knowledg scorn â—o intermix so much as Titles with us â—rofane Lay-Ideots and therefore will â—e called Lords Spiritual But you will â—ave a very venerable opinion of them â—f you do but consider how they came â—y these great possessions which made â—hem claim a third part of the Governâ—ent And truely not unjustly by my â—…le for I believe they had no less at â—…e time than a third part of the Lands 〈◊〉 most of these Countries Noble Ven. Pray how did they acquire â—…ese Lands was it not here by the Charitable donation of pious Christians as it was elsewhere Eng. Gent. Yes certainly very pious men some of them might be well meaning people but still such as were cheated by these holy men who told them perpetually both in publick and private that they represented God upon Earth being Ordained by Authority from him who was his Viceroy here and that what was given to them was given to God and he would repay it largely both in this World and the next This wheedle made our barbarous Ancestors newly Instructed in the Christian Faith if this Religion may be called so and sucking in this foolish Doctrine more than the Doctrine of Christ so zealous to these Vipers that they would have pluckt out their eyes to serve them much more bestow as they did the fruitfullest and best situate of their possessions upon them Nay some they perswaded to take upon them their Callings vow Chastity and give all they had to them and become one of them amongst whom I believe they found no more sanctity than they left in the World But this is nothing to another trick they had which was to insinuate into the most notorious and execrable Villains with which that Age abounded Men who being Princes and other great Men for such were the Tools they work'd with had treacherously poisoned or otherwise murdered their nearest Relations Fathers Brothers Wives to reign or enjoy their Estates These they did perswade into a belief that if they had a desire to be sav'd notwithstanding their execrable Villanies they need but part with some of those great possessions which they had acquired by those acts to their Bishopricks or Monasteries and they would pray for their Souls and they were so holy and acceptable to God that he would deny them nothing which they immediately performed so great was the ignorance and blindness of that Age and you shall hardly find in the story of those times any great Monastery Abbey or other Religious House in any of these Countries I speak confidently as to what concerns our own Saxons that had not its Foundation from some such Original Doct. A worthy beginning of a worthy Race Noble Ven. Sir you maintain a strange Position here That it had been better there had been no Clergy Would you have had no Gospel preached no Sacraments no continuance of Christian Religion in the World or do you think that these things could have been without a Succession of the true Priesthood or as you call it of true Ministry by means of Ordination do's not your own Church hold the same Eng. Gent. You will know more of my Church when I have told you what I find the word Church to signifie in Scripture which is to me the only rule of Faith Worship and Manners neither do I seek these aditional helps of Fathers Councels or Ecclesiastical history much less Tradition for since it is said in the word of God it self That Antichrist did begin to work even in those days I can easily believe that he had brought his Work to some perfection before the word Church was by him applied to the Clergy I shall therefore tell you what I conceive that Church Clergy and Ordination signified in the Apostolical times I find then the word Church in the New Testament taken but in two sences the first for the Vniversal Invisible Church called sometimes of the First-born that is the whole number of the true Followers of Christ in the World where-ever resident or into what part soever dispersed The other signification of Church is an Assembly which though it be sometimes used to express any Meetings even unlawful tumultuous ones as well in Scripture as prophane Authors yet it is more frequently understood for a gathering together to the Duties of Prayer Preaching and Breaking of Bread and the whole Number so Congregated is both in the Acts of the Apostles and in their holy Epistles called the Church nor is there the least colour for appropriating that word to the Pastors and Deacons who since the Corruptions of Christian Religion are called Clergy which word in the Old Testament is used sometimes for Gods whole People and sometimes for the Tribe of Levi out of which the Priests were chosen for the word signifies a Lot so that Tribe is called Gods Lot because they had no share alotted them when the Land was divided but were to live upon Tythe and serve in the
and Mr. Attwood of grays-Inne being Gentlemen whom I do mention honoris causa and really they deserve to be honor'd that they will spare some time from the Mechanical part of their Callings which is to assist Clients with Counsel and to plead their Causes and which I acknowledg likewise to be honourable to study the true Interest of their Country and to show how ancient the Rights of the People in England are and that in a time when neither Profit nor Countenance can be hop'd for from so ingenious an undertaking But I beg pardon for the deviation Of the three branches of Soveraign Power which Politicians mention which are Enacting Laws Levying of Taxes and making War and Peace the two first of them are indisputably in the Parliament and when I say Parliament I ever intend with the King The last has been usually exercis'd by the Prince if he can do it with his own Money yet because even in that Case it may be ruinous to the Kingdom by exposing it to an Invasion many have affirmed that such a Power cannot be by the true and ancient free Government of England supposed to be Intrusted in the hands of one man And therefore we see in divers Kings Reigns the Parliament has been Consulted and their advice taken in those matters that have either concerned War or Leagues And that if it has been omitted Addresses have been made to the king by Parliaments either to make war or peace according to what they thought profitable to the publick So that I will not determine whether that power which draws such consequences after it be by the genuine sence of our Laws in the Prince or no although I know of no Statute or written Record which makes it otherwise That which is undoubtedly the Kings Right or prerogative is to Call and Dissolve Parliaments to preside in them to approve of all Acts made by them and to put in Execution as Supream or Soveraign Magistrate in the Intervals of Parliaments and during their Sitting all Laws made by them as also the Common Law for which Cause he has the nomination of all Inferiour Officers and Ministers under him excepting such as by Law or Charter are eligible otherwise and the Power of the Sword to force Obedience to the Judgements given both in Criminal and Civil Causes Doct. Sir You have made us a very absolute Prince what have we left us if the King have all this Power what do our Liberties or Rights signifie whenever he pleases Eng. Gent. This Objection Doctor makes good what I said before that your skill did not terminate in the body natural but extend to the Politick for a more pertinent Interrogatory could never have been made by Plato or Aristotle In answer to which you may please to understand That when these Constitutions were first made our Ancestors were a plain-hearted well-meaning People without Court-reserves or tricks who having made choice of this sort of Government and having Power enough in their hands to make it take place did not foresee or imagine that any thoughts of Invading their Rights could enter into the Princes Head nor do I read that it ever did till the Norman Line came to Reign which coming in by Treaty it was obvious there was no Conquest made upon any but Harold in whose stead William the First came and would claim no more after his Victory than what Harold enjoy'd excepting that he might confiscate as he did those great men who took part with the wrong Title and French-men were put into their Estates which though it made in this Kingdom a mixture between Normans and Saxons yet produced no Change or Innovation in the Government the Norman Peers being as tenacious of their Liberties and as active in the recovery of them to the full as the Saxon Families were Soon after the death of William and possibly in his time there began some Invasions upon the Rights of the Kingdom which begat Grievances and afterwards Complaints and Discontents which grew to that height that the Peers were fain to use their Power that is Arm their Vassals to defend the Government whilest the Princes of that Age first King John and then Henry the Third got Force together The Barons call'd in Lewis the Dauphin whilst the King would have given away the Kingdom to the Sarazens as he did to the Pope and armed their own Creatures so that a bloody War ensued for almost forty years off and on as may be read in our History The success was that the Barons or Peers obtained in the close two Charters or Laws for the ascertaining their Rights by which neither their Lives Liberties or Estates could ever be in danger any more from any Arbitrary Power in the Prince and so the good Government of England which was before this time like the Law of Nature onely written in the hearts of Men came to be exprest in Parchment and remain a Record in Writing though these Charters gave us no more than what was our own before After these Charters were made there could not chuse but happen some encroachment upon them but so long as the Peers kept their greatness there was no breaches but what were immediately made up in Parliament which when-ever they assembled did in the first place confirm the Charters and made very often Interpretations upon them for the benefit of the People witness the Statute de Tallagio non concedendo and many others But to come nearer the giving the Doctor an answer you may please to understand that not long after the framing of these forementioned Charters there did arise a Grievance not foreseen or provided for by them and it was such an one that had beaten down the Government at once if it had not been Redressed in an Orderly way This was the Intermission of Parâ—iaments which could not be called but â—y the Prince and he not doing of it â—hey ceast to be Assembled for some years if this had not been speedily reâ—edied the Barons must have put on â—heir Armour again for who can Imaâ—ine that such brisk Assertors of their â—ights could have acquiesced in an Omission that ruin'd the Foundation of the Government which consisting of King Lords and Commons and having at that time Marched near Five hundred years upon three Leggs must then have gone on hopping upon one which could it have gone forward as was impossible whilest Property continued where it was yet would have rid but a little way Nor can it be wonder'd at that our great Men made no provision against this Grievance in their Charters because it was impossible for them to imagine that their Prince who had so good a share in this Government should go about to destroy it and to take that burden upon himself which by our Constitution was undeniably to be divided between him and his Subjects And therefore divers of the great Men of those times speaking with that excellent Prince King Edward the First about it
mas os eligimos nuestro Rey conque nos guardeys nuestros Fueros y Privilegios y si no no. That is We who are as good as you and more Powerful do chuse you our King upon condition that you preserve our Rights and Priviledges and if not not Notwithstanding all this Philip the Second being both King of Castile and Arragon picked a quarrel with the latter by demanding his Secretary Antonio Perez who fled from the King's displeasure thither being his own Country and they refusing to deliver him it being expresly contrary to a Law of Arragon that a Subject of that Kingdom should be against his will carried to be tryed elsewhere the King took that occasion to Invade them with the Forces of his Kingdom of Castile who had ever been Rivals and Enemies to the Aragoneses and they to defend themselves under their Justicia who did his part faithfully and couragiously but the Castilians being old Soldiers and those of Arragon but County-Troops the former prevailed and so this Kingdom in getting that of Castile by a Marriage but an Age before lost its own Liberty and Government for it is since made a Province and Governed by a Vice-Roy from Madrid although they keep up the formality of their Cortes still Doct. No man living that knew the hatred and hostility that ever was between the English and Scots could have imagined in the years 1639 and 1640 when our King was with great Armies of English upon the Frontiers of Scotland ready to Invade that Kingdom that this Nation would not have assisted to have brought them under but it proved otherwise Eng. Gent. It may be they feared That when Scotland was reduced to slavery and the Province pacified and Forces kept up there That such Forces and greater might have been imployed here to reduce us into the same condition an apprehension which at this time sticks with many of the common People and helps to fill up the measure of our Fears and Distractions But the visible reason why the English were not at that time very forward to oppress their Neighbours was the consideration That they were to be Invaded for refusing to receive from hence certain Innovations in matters of Religion and the worship of God which had not long before been introduced here and therefore the People of this Kingdom were unwilling to perpetuate a Mungrel Church here by imposing it upon them But I do exceedingly admire when I read our History to see how zealous and eager our Nobility and People here were anciently to assert the right of our Crown to the Kingdom of France whereas it is visible that if we had kept France for we Conquered it intirely and fully to this day we must have run the fate of Arragon and been in time ruined and opprest by our own Valour and good Fortune a thing that was foreseen by the Macedonians when their King Alexander had subdued all Persia and the East who weighing how probable it was that their Prince having the possession of such great and flourishing Kingdoms should change his Domicilium Imperii and inhabit in the Centre of his Dominions and from thence Govern Macedon by which means the Grecians who by their Vertue and Valour had Conquered and subdued the Barbarians should in time even as an effect of their Victories be opprest and tyrannized over by them and this precautious foresight in the Greeks as was fully believed in that Age hastened the fatal Catastrophe of that great Prince Doct. Well I hope this consideration will fore arm our Parliaments That they will not easily suffer their eyes to be dazled any more with the false glory of Conquering France Noble Ven. You need no great cautions against Conquering France at this present and I believe your Parliaments need as little admonition against giving of Money towards new Wars or Alliances that fine wheedle having lately lost them enough already therefore pray let us suffer our Friend to go on Eng. Gent. I have no more to say of Foreign Monarchies but only to tell you That Poland is both Governed and Possessed by some very great Persons or Potentates called Palatines and under them by a very numerous Gentry for the King is not onely Elective but so limited that he has little or no Power but to Command their Armies in time of War which makes them often chuse Foreigners of great Fame for Military Exploits and as for the Commonalty or Country-men they are absolutely Slaves or Villains This Government is extreamly confused by reason of the numerousness of the Gentry who do not always meet by way of representation as in other Kingdoms but sometimes for the choice of their King and upon other great occasions collectively in the Field as the Tribes did at Rome which would make things much more turbulent if all this body of Gentry did not wholly depend for their Estates upon the favour of the Palatines their Lords which makes them much more tractable I have done with our Neighbours beyond Sea and should not without your command have made so long a digression in this place which should indeed have been treated of before we come to speak of England but that you were pleased to divert me from it before However being placed near the Portraicture of our own Country it serves better as contraria juxta se posita to illustrate it but I will not make this Deviation longer by Apologizing for it and shall therefore desire you to take notice That as in England by degrees Property came to shift from the few to the many so the Government is grown heavier and more uneasie both to Prince and People the complaints more in Parliament the Laws more numerous and much more tedious and prolix to meet with the tricks and malice of men which works in a loose Government for there was no need to make Acts verbose when the great Persons could presently force the Execution of them for the Law of Edward the First for frequent Parliaments had no more words than A Parliament shall be holden every year whereas our Act for a Triennial Parliament in the time of King Charles the First contained several sheets of paper to provide against a failer in the Execution of that Law which if the Power had remained in the Lords would have been needless for some of them in case of intermission of Assembling the Parliament would have made their Complaint and Address to the King and have immediately removed the obstruction which in those days had been the natural and easie way but now that many of the Lords like the Bishops which the Popes make at Rome in partibus infidelium are meerly grown Titular and purchased for nothing but to get their Wives place it cannot be wondred at if the King slight their Addresses and the Court-Parasites deride their Honourable undertakings for the safety of their Country Now the Commons succeeding as was said in the Property of the Peers and Church whose Lands
and there is no need of it at all in this Case I have told you before that there is a necessity of a Senate and how short this Government would be without it and how confused in the mean time the Roman Senate was Hereditary amongst the Patricii except the Censor left any of them out of the Roll during his Magistracy for some very great and scandalous offence and in that case too there was an Appeal to the People as in all other Causes witness the Case of Lucius Quintius and many others To shew that there can be no need of such a change here as you speak of you may please to consider that all differences between the several parts of any Government come upon the account of Interest now when this Settlement is made the House of Peers and the House of Commons can have no Interest to dissent For as to all things of private Interest that is the Rights of Peers both during the sitting of Parliaments and in the Intervals is left to their own House to judge of as it is to the House of Commons to judge of their own Priviledges And as for the contest of the Peers Jurisdiction as to Appeals from Courts of Equity Belides that I would have that setled in the Act which should pass concerning the Lords House I believe it will never happen more when the Government is upon a right Foundation it having been hitherto fomented by two different Parties the Court-party sometimes blowing up that difference to break the Session lest some good Bills for the People should pass or that the King by rejecting them might discontent his People to avoid which Dilemma there needed no more but to procure some person to prosecute his Appeal before the Lords some honest Patriots afterwards possibly might use the same policy which they learnt from the Courtiers to quash some Bill very destructive in which they were out-voted in the Commons House otherwise it is so far from the Interest of the Commons to hinder Appeals from Courts of Equity that there is none amongst them but know we are almost destroyed for want of it And when they have considered well and that some such Reformation as this shall take place they will find that it can never be placed in a more honourable and unbyas'd Judicatory than this And I could wish that even in the Intermission of Parliamentary Sessions the whole Peerage of England as many of them as can conveniently be in Town may sit in their Judicial Capacities and hear Appeals in Equity as well as Judge upon Writs of Errour Now as to your other Objection which is indeed of great weight that the House of Commons must needs take it ill that the Lords should frustrate their endeavours for the Peoples good by their Negative If you consider one thing the force of this Objection will vanish which is That when this new Constitution shall be admitted the Lords cannot have any Interest or temptation to differ with the Commons in any thing wherein the Publick good is concerned but are obliged by all the ties in the World to run the same course and fortune with the Commons their Interest being exactly the same so that if there be any dissenting upon Bills between the two Houses when each of them shall think their own Expedient conduces most to the advantage of the Publick this difference will ever be decided by right reason at Conferences And the Lords may as well convince the Commons as be convinced by them and these contests are and ever will be of admirable use and benefit to the Commonwealth the reason why it is otherwise now and that the House of Peers is made use of to hinder many Bills from passing that are supposed to be for the ease of the People is that the great Counsellors and Officers which sit in that House do suggest whether true or false that it is against his Majesties Will and Interest that such an Act should pass whereupon it has found Obstruction but hereafter if our expedient take place it cannot be so first because our King himself cannot have any designs going as was proved before which shall make it his advantage to hinder any good intended his people whose prosperity then will be his own And then because in a short time the Peers being made by Act of Parliament will consist of the best Men of England both for Parts and Estates and those who are already made if any of them have small Estates the King if he had the Interest would not have the means to corrupt them the Publick Moneys and the great Offices being to be dispensed in another manner than formerly so their Lordships will have no Motive in the World to steer their Votes and Councils but their own Honour and Conscience and the preservation and prosperity of their Country So that it would be both needless and unjust to pretend any change of this kind Besides this alteration in the administration of our Government being proposed to be done by the unanimous consent of King Lords and Commons and not otherwise it would be very preposterous to believe that the Peers would depose themselves of their Hereditary Rights and betake themselves to the hopes of being Elected it is true they have lost the Power they had over the Commons but that has not been taken from them by any Law no more than it was given them by any but is fallen by the course of Nature as has been shewn at large But though they cannot lead the Commons by their Tenures as formerly yet there is no reason or colour that they should lose their Co-ordination which I am sure they have by Law and by the Fundamental Constitution of the Government and which is so far from being prejudicial to a lasting Settlement as was said that it infinitely contributes to it and prevents the Confusion which would destroy it If I should have proposed any thing in this Discourse which should have Intrenched upon the King 's Hereditary Right or that should have hindred the Majesty and Greatness of these Kingdoms from being represented by his Royal Person I should have made your Story of the Capuchine Fryar very Applicable to me Noble Ven. I see you have not forgiven me that Novel yet but pray give me leave to ask you one Question Why do you make the Election of Great Officers to be by a small secret Council that had been more proper for a Numerous Assembly as it is in most Commonwealths Eng. Gent. It is so in Democracies and was so in Sparta and is done by your Great Council in Venice but we are not making such a kind of Government but rectifying an ancient Monarchy and giving the Prince some help in the Administration of that great Branch of his Regality besides it is sufficient that our Parliament chuses these Councils that is always understood the Lords and Commons with the Kings Consent besides it is possible that if such
he to take away from his People all fear and apprehension that he intended to change the Ancient Government called speedily a Parliament anâ— in it consented to a Declaration of thâ— Kingdoms Right in that point without the clearing of which all our other Laws had been useless and the Government it self too of which the Parliament is at the least as Essential a part as the Prince so that there passed a Law in that Parliament that one should be held every year and oftner if need be which like another Magna Charta was confirmed by a new Act made in the time of Edward the Third that glorious Prince nor were there any Sycophants in those days who durst pretend Loyalty by using Arguments to prove that it was against the Royal Prerogative for the Parliament to entrench upon the Kings Right of calling and Dissolving of Parliaments as if there were a Prerogative in the Crown to chuse whether ever a Parliament should assemble or no I would desire no more if I were a Prince to make me Grand Seignior Soon after this last Act the King by reason of his Wars with France and Scotland and other great Affairs was forced sometimes to end his Parliaments abruptly and leave business undone and this not out of Court-tricks which were then unknown which produced another Act not long after by which it was provided That no Parliament should be dismist till all the Petitions were answered That is in the Language of those times till all the Bills which were then styled Petitions were finished Doct. Pray Sir give me a little account of this last Act you speak of for I have heard in Discourse from many Lawyers that they believe there is no such Eng. Gen. Truly Sir I shall confess to you that I do not find this Law in any of our Printed Statute Books but that which first gave me the knowledg of it was what was said about three years ago in the House of Commons by a worthy and Learned Gentleman who undertook to produce the Record in the Reign of Richard the Second and since I have questioned many Learned Counsellors about it who tell me there is such a one and one of them who is counted a Prerogative-Lawyer said it was so but that Act was made in Factious times Besides I think it will be granted that for some time after and particularly in the Reigns of Henry the 4th Henry the 5th and Henry the 6th it was usual for a Proclamation to be made in Westminster-Hall before the end of every Session that all those that had any matter to present to the Parliament should bring it in before such a day for otherwise the Parliament at that day should determine But if there were nothing at all of this nor any Record extant concerning it yet I must believe that it is so by the Fundamental Law of this Government which must be lame and imperfect without it for it is all one to have no Parliaments at all but when the Prince pleases and to allow a power in him to dismiss them when he will that is when they refuse to do what he will so that if there be no Statute it is certainly because our wise Ancestors thought there needed none but that by the very Essence and Constitution of the Government it is provided for and this we may call if you had rather have it so the Common-Law which is of as much value if not more than any Statute and of which all our good Acts of Parliament and Magna Charta it self is but Declaratory so that your Objection is sufficiently aswered in this That though the King is intrusted with the formal part of summoning and pronouncing the Dissolution of Parliaments which is done by his Writ yet the Laws which oblige him as well as us have determin'd how and when he shall do it which is enough to shew that the Kings share in the Soveraignty that is in the Parliament is cut out to him by the Law and not left at his disposal Now I come to the Kings part in the Intervals of Parliament Noble Ven. Sir before you do so pray tell us what other Prerogatives the King enjoys in the Government for otherwise I who am a Venetian may be apt to think that our Doge who is call'd our Prince may have as much Power as yours Eng. Gent. I am in a fine condition amongst you with my Politicks the Doctor tells me I have made the King Absolute and now you tell me I have made him a Doge of Venice But when your Prince has Power to dispose of the Publick Revenue to name all Officers Ecclesiastical and Civil that are of trust and profit in the Kingdom and to dispose absolutely of the whole Militia by Sea and Land then we will allow him to be like ours who has all these Powers Doct. Well you puzzle me extreamly for when you had asserted the King's Power to the heighth in Calling and Dissolving Parliaments you gave me such satisfaction and shewed me wherein the Law had provided that this vast Prerogative could not hurt the People that I was fully satisfied and had not a word to say Now you come about again and place in the Crown such a Power which in my Judgment is inconsistent with our Liberty Eng. Gent. Sir I suppose you mean chiefly the Power of the Militia which was I must confess doubtful before a late Statute declar'd it to be in the King For our Government hath made no other disposal of the Militia than what was natural viz. That the Peers in their several Counties or Jurisdictions had the Power of calling together their Vassals either armed for the Wars or onely so as to cause the Law to be executed by serving Writs and in case of resistance giving possession which Lords amongst their own Tenants did then perform the two several Offices of Lord-Lieutenant and Sheriff which latter was but the Earls Deputy as by his Title of Vice-Comes do's appear But this latter being of daily necessity and Justice it self that is the Lives Liberties and Estates of all the People in that County depending upon it when the greatness of the Peers decay'd of which we shall have occasion to speak hereafter the Electing of Sheriff was referred to the County-Court where it continued till it was placed where it now is by a Statute For the other part of the Militia which is the Arming the People for War it was de facto exercised by Commission from the King to a Lord-Lieutenant as an image of the Natural Lord and other Deputies and it was tacitely consented to though it were never setled by Statute as I said before till His Majesties happy Restauration But to answer you I shall say That whatever Powers are in the Crown whether by Statute or by old Prescription they are and must be understood to be intrusted in the Prince for the preservation of the Government and for the safety and interest of the
People and when either the Militia which is given him for the execution and support of the Law shall be imploy'd by him to subvert it as in the case of Ship-Money it was or the Treasure shall be mis-apply'd and made the Revenue of Courtiers and Sycophants as in the time of Edward the Second or worthless or wicked People shall be put into the greatest places as in the reign of Richard the Second In this case though the Prince here cannot be questionable for it as the Kings were in Sparta and your Doges I believe would be yet it is a great violation of the trust reposed in him by the Government and a making that Power which is given him by Law unlawful in the Execution And the frequent examples of Justice inflicted in Parliament upon the King's Ministers for abusing the Royal Power shews plainly that such authority is not left in his hands to use as he pleases Nay there have befallen sad troubles and dangers to some of these Princes themselves who have abused their Power to the prejudice of the Subjects which although they are no way justifiable yet may serve for an Instruction to Princes and an example not to hearken to ruinous Councils for men when they are enraged do not always consider Justice of Religion passion being as natural to man as reason and vertue which was the Opinion of divine Machiavil To answer you then I say That though we do allow such Powers in the King yet since they are given him for edification and not destruction and cannot be abused without great danger to his Ministers and even to himself we may hope that they can never be abused but in a broken Government And if ours be so as we shall see anon the fault of the ill execution of our Laws is not to be imputed either to the Prince or his Ministers excepting that the latter may be as we said before justly punishable for not advising the Prince to consent to them ending the frame of which we shall talk more hereafter but in the mean time I will come to the Kings other Prerogatives as having all Royal Mines the being serv'd first before other Creditors where mony is due to him and to have a speedier and easier way than his Subjects to recover his debts and his Rents c. But to say all in one word when there arises any doubt whether any thing be the king's Prerogative or no this is the way of deciding it viz. To consider whether it be for the good and protection of the people that the King have such a Power For the definition of Prerogative is a considerable part of the Common Law by which Power is put into the Prince for the preservation of his People And if it be not for the good of his Subjects it is not Prerogative not Law for our Prince has no Authority of his own but what was first intrusted in him by the Government of which he is Head nor is it to be imagined that they would give him more Power than what was necessary to Govern them For example the power of pardoning Criminals condemned is of such use to the Lives and Estates of the People that without it many would be exposed to die unjustly As lately a poor Gentleman who by means of the Harangue of a Strepitous Lawyer was found guilty of Murder for a Man he never kil'd or if he had the fact had been but Man-slaughter and he had been inevitably murdered himself if his Majesty had not been graciously pleased to extend his Royal Mercy to him As he did likewise vouchsafe to do to a Gentleman convicted for speaking words he never utter'd or if he had spoken them they were but foolishly not malitiously spoken On the other side if a Controversie should arise as it did in the beginning of the last Parliament between the House of Commons and the Prerogative-Lawyers about the choice of their Speaker these latter having interested his Majesty in the Contest and made him by consequence disoblige in limine a very Loyal and a very Worthy Parliament and for what for a Question which if you will decide it the right way will be none for setting aside the Presidents and the History when the Crown first pretended to any share in the Choice of a Speaker which Argument was very well handled by some of the Learned Patriots then I would have leave to ask what man can shew and what reason can be alledged why the protection and welfare of the People should require that a Prerogative should be in the Prince to chuse the Mouth of the House of Commons when there is no particular person in his whole Dominion that would not think it against his interest if the Government had given the King Power to nominate his Bayliff his Attorney or his Referree in any Arbitration Certainly there can be no advantage either to the Soveraign or his Subjects that the person whose Office it is to put their deliberations into fitting words and express all their requests to his Majesty should not be entirely in their own Election and appointment which there is the more reason for too because the Speakers for many years past have received Instructions from the Court and have broken the Priviledges of the House by revealing their Debates Adjourning them without a Vote and committed many other Misdemeanours by which they have begotten an ill understanding between the King and his House of Commons to the infinite prejudice both of his Majesties Affairs and his People Since I have given this rule to Judge Prerogative by I shall say no more of it for as to what concerns the King's Office in the Intervals of Parliament it is wholly Ministerial and is barely to put in Execution the Common Law and the Statutes made by the Soveraign Power that is by Himself and the Parliament without varying one tittle or suspending abrogating or neglecting the Execution of any Act whatsoever and to this he is Solemnly Sworn at his Coronation And all his Power in this behalf is in him by Common Law which is Reason it self written as well in the hearts of rational Men as in the Lawyers Books Noble Ven. Sir I have heard much talk of the Kings Negative Voice in Parliaments which in my Opinion is as much as a Power to frustrate when he pleases all the endeavours and labours of his People and to prevent any good that might accrue to the Kingdom by having the right to meet in Parliament for certainly if we in Venice had placed any such Prerogative in our Duke or in any of our Magistracies we could not call our selves a free People Eng. Gent. Sir I can answer you as I did before that if our Kings have such a Power it ought to be used according to the true and genuine intent of the Government that is for the Preservation and Interest of the people and not for the disappointing the Counsels of a Parliament towards reforming
that does not alter the Case for if you set poor men to work and pay them for it are you a Tyrant or rather are not you a good Common-wealths-man by helping those to live who have no other way of doing it but by their labour But the King of France knowing that his People have and ought to have Property and that he has no right to their Possessions yet takes what he pleases from them without their consent and contrary to Law So that when he sets them on work he pays them what he pleases and that he levies out of their own Estates I do not affirm that there is no Government in the World but where Rule is founded in Property but I say there is no natural fixed Government but where it is so and when it is otherwise the People are perpetually complaining and the King in perpetual anxiety always in fear of his Subjects and seeking new ways to secure himself God having been so merciful to mankind that he has made nothing safe for Princes but what is Just and Honest Noble Ven. But you were saying just now that this present Constitution in France will fall when the props fail we in Italy who live in perpetual fear of the greatness of that Kingdom would be glad to hear something of the decaying of those props What are they I beseech you Eng. Gent. The first is the greatness of the present King whose heriock Actions and Wisdom has extinguished envy in all his Neighbour-Princes and kindled fear and brought him to be above all possibility of control at home not only because his Subjects fear his Courage but because they have his Virtue in admiration and amidst all their miseries cannot chuse but have something of rejoycing to see how high he hath mounted the Empire and Honour of their Nation The next prop is the change of their ancient Constitution in the time of Charles the Seventh by Consent for about that time the Country being so wasted by the Invasion and Excursions of the English The States then assembled Petitioned the King that he would give them leave to go home and dispose of Affairs himself and Order the Government for the future as he thought fit Upon this his Successor Lewis the Eleventh being a crafty Prince took an occasion to call the States no more but to supply them with an Assemble des notables which were certain men of his own nomination like Barbones Parliament here but that they were of better quality These in succeeding reigns being the best men of the Kingdom grew Troublesome and Intractable so that for some years the Edicts have been verified that is in our Language Bills have been passed in the Grand Chamber of the Parliament at Paris commonly called the Chambre d'audience who lately and since the Imprisonment of President Brouselles and others during this King's Minority have never refused or scrupled any Edicts whatsoever Now whenever this great King dies and the States of the Kingdom are restored these two great props of Arbitrary Power are taken away Besides these two the Constitution of the Government of France it self is somwhat better fitted than ours to permit extraordinary Power in the Prince for the whole People there possessing Lands are Gentlemen that is infinitely the greater part which was the reason why in their Asembly of Estates the Deputies of the Provinces which we call here Knights of the Shire were chosen by and out of the Gentry and sate with the Peers in the same Chamber as representing the Gentry onely called petite noblesse Whereas our Knights here whatever their blood is are chosen by Commoners and are Commoners our Laws and Government taking no notice of any Nobility but the persons of the Peers whose Sons are likewise Commoners even their eldest whilest their Father lives Now Gentry are ever more tractable by a Prince than a wealthy and numerous Commonalty out of which our Gentry at least those we call so are raised from time to time For whenever either a Merchant Lawyer Tradesman Grasier Farmer or any other gets such an Estate as that he or his Son can live upon his Lands without exercising of any other Calling he becomes a Gentleman I do not say but that we have men very Nobly descended amongst these but they have no preheminence or distinction by the Laws or Government Besides this the Gentry in France are very needy and very numerous the reason of which is That the Elder Brother in most parts of that Kingdom hath no more share in the division of the Paternal Estate than the Cadets or Younger Brothers excepting the Principal House with the Orchards and Gardens about it which they call Vol de Chappon as who should say As far as a Capon can fly at once This House gives him the Title his Father had who was called Seignior or Baron or Count of that place which if he sells he parts with his Baronship and for ought I know becomes in time roturier or ignoble This practice divides the Lands into so many small parcels that the Possessors of them being Noble and having little to maintain their Nobility are fain to seek their Fortune which they can find no where so well as at the Court and so become the King's Servants and Souldiers for they are generally Couragious Bold and of a good Meen None of these can ever advance themselves but by their desert which makes them hazard themselves very desperately by which means great numbers of them are kill'd and the rest come in time to be great Officers and live splendidly upon the King's Purse who is likewise very liberal to them and according to their respective merits gives them often in the beginning of a Campagne a considerable sum to furnish out their Equipage These are a great Prop to the Regal Power it being their Interest to support it lest their gain should cease and they be reduced to be poor Provinciaux that is Country-Gentlemen again whereas if they had such Estates as our Country-Gentry have they would desire to be at home at their ease whilest these having ten times as much from the King as their own Estate can yield them which supply must fail if the King's Revenue were reduced are perpetually engaged to make good all exorbitances Doct. This is a kind of Governing by Property too and it puts me in mind of a Gentleman of good Estate in our Country who took a Tenants Son of his to be his Servant whose Father not long after dying left him a Living of about ten pound a year the young Man's Friends came to him and asked him why he would serve now he had an Estate of his own able to maintain him his Answer was That his own Lands would yield him but a third part of what his Service was worth to him in all besides that he lived a pleasant Life wore good Clothes kept good Company and had the conversation of very pretty Maids that were his Fellow-servants
Coach Noble Ven. I shall think it very long till the morning come But before you go pray give me leave to ask you something of your Civil War here I do not mean the History of it although the World abroad is very much in the dark as to all your Transactons of that time for want of a good one but the grounds or pretences of it and how you fell into a War against your King Eng. Gent. As for our History it will not be forgotten one of those who was in Employment from the Year 40. to 60. hath written the History of those 20 Years a Person of good Learning and Elocution and though he be now dead yet his Executors are very unwilling to publish it so soon and to rub a Sore that is not yet healed But the Story is writ with great Truth and Impartiality although the Author were engaged both in Councils and Arms for the Parliaments side But for the rest of your Demand you may please to understand that our Parliament never did as they pretended make War against the King for he by Law can do no Wrong and therefore cannot be quarrelled with The War they declared was undertaken to rescue the King's Person out of those Mens hands who led him from his Parliament and made use of his Name to levy a War against them Noble Ven. But does your Government permit that in case of a disagreement between the King and his Parliament either of them may raise Arms against the other Eng. Gent. It is impossible that any Government can go further than to provide for its own Safety and Preservation whilst it is in being and therefore it can never direct what shall be done when it self is at an end there being this difference between our Bodies Natural and Politick that the first can make a Testament to dispose of things after his death but not the other This is certain that where-ever any two Co-ordinate Powers do differ and there be no Power on Earth to reconcile them otherwise nor any Umpire they will de facto fall together by the Ears What can be done in this Case de jure look into your own Country-man Machiavell and into Grotius who in his Book De jure Belli ac Pacis treated of such matters long before our Wars As for the ancient Politicians they must needs be silent in the Point as having no mixt Governments amongst them and as for me I will not rest my self in so slippery a Place There are great disputes about it in the Parliaments Declarations before the War and something considerable in the King's Answers to them which I shall specifie immediately when I have satisfied you how our War begun which was in this manner The Long Parliament having procured from the King his Royal Assent for their Sitting till they were dissolved by Act and having paid and sent out the Scottish Army and disbanded our own went on in their Debates for the settling and mending our Government the King being displeased with them for it and with himself for putting it out of his Power to dissolve them now the business which they pretended for their Perpetuation was quite finished takes an unfortunate Resolution to accuse five principal Men of the Commons House and one of the Peers of High-Treason which he prosecuted in a new unheard-of way by coming with armed Men into the Commons House of Parliament to demand their Members but nothing being done by reason of the absence of the five and Tumults of discontented Citizens flocking to White-Hall and Westminster the King took that occasion to absent himself from his Parliament Which induced the Commons House to send Commissioners to Hampton-Court to attend his Majesty with a Remonstrance of the State of the Kingdom and an humble Request to return to his Parliament for the Redressing those Grievances which were specified in that Remonstrance But the King otherwise Counselled goes to Windsor and thence Northwards till he arrived at York where he summons in the Militia that is the Trained-Bands of the County and besides all the Gentry of which there was a numerous Appearance The King addressed himself to the latter with Complaints against a prevailing Party in Parliament which intended to take the Crown from his Head that he was come to them his loving Subjects for Protection and in short desired them to assist him with Moneys to defend himself by Arms. Some of these Gentlemen petitioned His Majesty to return to his Parliament the rest went about the Debate of the King's Demands who in the mean time went to Hull to secure the Magazine there but was denied Entrance by a Gentleman whom the House had sent down to prevent the seizing it who was immediately declared a Traytor and the King fell to raising of Forces which coming to the Knowledge of the House they made this Vote That the King seduced by Evil Counsel intended to levy War against his Parliament and People to destroy the Fundamental Laws and Liberties of England and to introduce an Arbitrary Government c. This was the first time they named the King and the last For in all their other Papers and in their Declaration to Arm for their Defence which did accompany this Vote they name nothing but Malignant Counsellors The Kings Answer to these Votes and this Declaration is that which I mentioned wherein His Majesty denies any intention of invading the Government with high Imprecations upon himself and Posterity if it were otherwise and owns that they have Right to maintain their Laws and Government This is to be seen in the Paper it self now extant and this Gracious Prince never pretended as some Divines have done for him that his Power came from God and that his Subjects could not dispute it nor ought he to give any Account of his Actions though he should enslave us all to any but him So that our War did not begin upon a point of Right but upon a matter of Fact for without going to Lawyers or Casuists to be resolved those of the People who believed that the King did intend to destroy our Liberties joyned with the Parliament and those who were of opinion that the prevailing party in Parliament did intend to destroy the King or dethrone him assisted vigorously His Majesty with their Lives and Fortunes And the Question you were pleased to ask never came for both parties pretended and believed they were in the right and that they did fight for and defend the Government But I have wearied you out Noble Ven. No sure Sir but I am infinitely obliged to you for the great care you have taken and still have used to instruct me and beg the continuance of it for to morrow morning Eng. Gent. I shall be sure to wait upon you at nine a Clock but I shall beseech both of you to bethink your selves what to offer for I shall come with a design to learn not to teach nor will I presume in such a
imaginable that either Christ or his Apostles did ever account that the true Religion should be planted in the World by the framing of Laws Catechisms or Creeds by the Soveraign Powers and Magistrates whether you call them Spiritual or Temporal but that it should have a Progress suitable to its beginning for it is visible that it had its Original from the Power and Spirit of God and came in against the stream not onely without a Numa Pompilius or a Mahomet to plant and establish it by humane Constitutions and Authority but had all the Laws of the World to oppose it and all the bloudy Tyrants of that age to persecute it and to inflict exquisite torments on the Professors of it In Nero's time which was very early the Christians were offered a Temple in Rome and in what other Cities they pleased to be built to Jesus Christ and that the Romans should receive him into the number of their gods but our Religion being then in its purity this was unanimously refused for that such a God must have no Companions nor needed no Temples but must be Worshipped in Spirit and Truth The Successors to these good Christians were not so scrupulous for within some Ages after the Priests to get Riches and Power and the Emperors to get and keep the Empire for by this time the Christians were grown numerous and powerful combined together to spoil our Holy Religion to make it fit for the Government of this World to introduce into it all the Ceremonious follies and Superstitions of the Heathen and which is worse the Power of Priests both over the Persons and Consciences of Men. I shall say no more of this but refer you to innumerable Authors who have treated of this Subject particularly to a French Minister who hath written a Book Entituled La Religion Catholique Apostolique Romaine instituee par Nume Pompile and to the incomparable Machiavel in his Posthume Letter Printed lately in our Language with the Translation of his Works But I have made a long digression and to come back again shall onely desire you to take notice when I say that anciently Popery was no inconvenience in this Kingdom I mean onely Politically as the Government then stood and do not speak at all of the prejudice which mens Souls did and will ever receive from the Belief of those impious Tenents and the want of having the True Gospel of Jesus Christ preached unto them but living in perpetual Superstition and Idolatry The consideration of these Matters is not so proper to my present purpose being to Discourse onely of Government Notwithstanding therefore as I said before that Popery might have suited well enough with our old Constitution yet as to the present Estate which inclines to Popularity it would be wholly as inconsistent with it and with the Power of the Keys and the Empire of Priests especially where there is a Forreign Jurisdiction in the case as with the Tyranny and Arbitrary Power of any Prince in the World I will add thus much in Confirmation of the Doctor 's Assertion That we ought to prevent the Growth of Popery since it is now grown a Dangerous Faction here against the State Noble Ven. How can that be I beseech you Sir Eng. Gent. Sir I will make you Judg of it your self I will say nothing of those foolish Writings that have been put forth by Mariana Emanuel Sa and some others about the lawfulness of destroying Princes and States in case of Heresie because I know all the conscientious and honest Papists of which I know there are great numbers in the World do not only not hold but even abhor such cursed Tenents and do believe that when the Pope by Excommunication hath cut off any Prince from the communion of the Church can go no further nor ought to pretend a Power to deprive him of his Crown or absolve his Subjects from their Oaths and Obedience But I shall confine my self to the present condition of our Papists here You know how dangerous it is for any Kingdom or State to have a considerable wealthy flourishing party amongst them whose interest it is to destroy the Polity and Government of the Country where they live and therefore if our Papists prove this Party you will not wonder why this People are so eager to depress them This is our Case for in the beginning of Queen Elizabeths reign there was an alteration of Religion in our Country which did sufficiently enrage the Holy Father at Rome to see that this good Cow would be Milked no longer He declares her an Heretick and a Bastard his Sanctity not having declared null that incestuous Marriage which her Father had contracted before with his Brothers Wife and which that King had dissolved to Marry her Mother and afterwards Excommunicated our Queen depriving her as much as in him lay of the Kingdom some of the Zealots of that Party having a greater terrour for those Thunder-bolts than I believe many have now began to Conspire against her and Plots grew at length so frequent and so dangerous that it was necessary as the Parliaments then thought to secure the Queen by making severe Laws against a People who did not believe themselves her Majesties Subjects but on the contrary many of them thought themselves in Conscience obliged to oppose and destroy her and although that Excommunication as also the pretended doubtfulness of the Title both died with that renowned Queen yet a new desperate Conspiracy against the King her Successor and the whole Parliament ensuing not long after her decease those rigorous Laws have been so far from being repealed that very many more and far severer have been since made and are yet in force Now these Laws make so great a distinction between Protestants and Papists that whereas the former are by our Government and Laws the freest People in the World the latter are little better than slaves are confined to such a distance from their Houses are not to come near the Court which being kept in the Capital City mostly deprives them from attending their necessary occasions they are to pay two third parts of their Estates annually to the King their Priests are to suffer as Traitors and they as Felons for harbouring them in fine one of us if he do not break the Municipal Laws for the good Government of the Country need not fear the King's Power whereas their being what they are is a breach of the Law and does put them into the Princes hands to ruine them when he pleases nay he is bound by Oath to do it and when he does it not is complained against by his People and Parliaments take it amiss Now judge you Sir whether it is not the interest of these People to desire and endeavour a change whilest they remain under these discouragements and whether they are not like to joyn with the Prince whose connivance at the inexecution of those Laws is the onely means and hope of their
have a better Game to play nor a better Adversary to deal with than one who leaps in over the Heads of almost all the Protestant Princes Families abroad besides some Papists who are greater and when we have been harrassed with Wars and the miseries that accompany it some few years you shall have all these fine People who now run after him very weary of their new Prince I would not say any thing to disparage a Person so highly born and of so early merit but this I may say That if a Lawful Title should be set on foot in his favour and a thousand Dutch Hosts and such like should swear a Marriage yet no sober Man that is not blinded with prejudice will believe That our King whom none can deny to have an excellent understanding would ever Marry a Woman so much his Inferiour as this great Persons Mother was and this at a time when his Affairs were very low and he had no visible or rational hopes to be restored to the Possession of his Kingdoms but by an assistance which might have been afforded him by means of some great Foreign Alliance Well but to leave all this do these Men pretend that the Duke of Monmouth shall be declared Successour to the Crown in Parliament with the King 's Concurence or without it if without it you must make a War for it and I am sure that no Cause can be stated upon such a point that will not make the Assertors and Undertakers of it be condemned by all the Politicians and Moralists of the World and by the Casuists of all Religions and so by consequence it is like to be a very unsuccesful War If you would have this declar'd with the King's Consent either you suppose the Royal assent to be given when the King has his liberty either to grant it or not grant it to Dissolve the Parliament or not Dissolve it without ruine or prejudice to his Affairs If in the first Case it is plain he will not grant it because he cannot do it without confessing his Marriage to that Duke's Mother which he hath already declared against in a very solemn manner and caused it to be Registred in Chancery and which not only no good Subject can chuse but believe but which cannot be doubted by any rational person for it would be a very unnatural and indeed a thing unheard of that a Father who had a Son in Lawful Matrimony and who was grown to perfection and had signalized himself in the Wars and who was ever intirely beloved by him should disinherit him by so solemn an asseveration which must be a false one too to cause his Brother to succeed in his room And whereas it is pretended by some that His Majesties danger from his Brothers Counsels and Designs may draw from him something of this beside that they do not much Complement the King in this it is clear his Brother is not so Popular but that he may secure him when he pleases without hazard if there were any ground for such an apprehension But we must in the next place suppose that the King's Affairs were in such a posture that he could deny the Parliament nothing without very great mischief and inconvenience to himself and the Kingdom then I say I doubt not but the Wisdom of the Parliament will find out divers Demands and Requests to make to His Majesty of greater benefit and more necessary for the good of his People than this would be which draws after it not only a present unsetledness but the probable hazard of Misery and Devastation for many years to come as has been proved So that as on the one side the Parliament could not make a more unjustfiable War than upon this Account so they could not be Dissolved upon any occasion wherein the People would not shew less discontent and resentment and for which the Courtiers would not hope to have a better pretext to strive in the next Choice to make their Arts and endeavours more successful in the Election of Members more suitable to their Designs for the continuance of this present mis-government For if this Parliament do mis-spend the Peoples Mettle which is now up in driving that Nail which cannot go they must look to have it cool and so the Ship of this Commonwealth which if they please may be now in a fair way of Entering into a Safe Harbour will be driven to Sea again in a Storm and must hope for and expect another favourable Wind to save them and God knows when that may come Doct. But Sir there are others who not minding whether the Parliament will consider the Duke of Monmouths concern so far as to debate it do yet pretend that there is great reason to keep up the peoples affections to him and possibly to foment the opinion they have of his Title to the Crown to the end that if the King should die re infectà that is before such time as the Government is redrest or the Duke of York disabled by Law to Succeed the people might have an Head under whose Command and Conduct they might stand upon their Guard till they had some way secured their Government and Religion Eng. Gent. What you have started is not a thing that can safely be discoursed of nor is it much material to our design which is intended to speculate upon our Government and to shew how it is decayed I have industriously avoided the argument of Rebellion as I find it coucht in modern Polititians because most Princes hold that all Civil Wars in mixt Monarchies must be so and a Polititian as well as an Oratour ought to be Vir bonus so ought to discourse nothing how rational soever in these points under a peaceable Monarchy which gives him protection but what he would speak of his Prince if all his Councel were present I will tell you only that these Authors hold that nothing can be alledged to excuse the taking Arms by any people in opposition to their Prince from being Crimen Lesae Majestatis but a claim to a lawful Jurisdiction or Co-ordination in the Government by which they may judg of and defend their own Rights and so pretend to fight for and defend the Government for though all do acknowledg that Populi salus is and ought to be the most Supreme or Soveraign Law in the world yet if we should make private persons how numerous soever judg of Populi salus we should have all the Risings and Rebellions that should ever be made justified by that title as happened in France when La Guerre du bien publique took that name which was raised by the insatiable ambition of a few Noblemen and by correspondency and confederacy with Charles Son of the Duke of Burgundy and other enemies to that Crown Doct. But would you have our people do nothing then if the King should be Assassinated or die of a natural death Eng. Gent. You ask me a very fine question Doctor
their consideration what should be done in it it was at length concluded that Themistocles should propose it to Aristides and if he did next morning acquaint the People that he gave his approbation to it it should be proceeded in Themistocles informs him that the whole Fleet of their Confederates in the War against the Medes had betaken themselves to the great Arsenal upon their Coast where they might be easily fired and then the Athenians would remain absolute Masters of the Sea and so give Law to all Greece when Aristides came the next day to deliver his Judgment to the People he told them that the business proposed by Themistocles was indeed very advantageous and profitable to the Athenians But withal the most Wicked and Villanous Attempt that ever was undertaken upon which it was wholly laid aside And the same Judgment do I give Doctor of your Democracy at this time But to return to the place where I was I do belive that this difference may easily be terminated very fairly and that our House need not be pulled down and a new one built but may be very easily repair'd so that it may last many hundred years Noble Ven. I begin to perceive that you aim at this That the King must give the People more Power as Henry the Third and King John did or the Parliament must give the King more as you said they did in France in the time of Lewis the Eleventh or else that it will come in time to a War again Eng. Gent. You may please to know that in all times hitherto the Parliament never demanded any thing of the King wherein the Interest and Government of the Kingdom was concerned excepting Acts of Pardon but they founded their demands upon their Right not only because it might seem unreasonable for them to be earnest with him to give them that which was his own but also because they cannot chuse but know that all Powers which are Fundamentally and Lawfully in the Crown were placed there upon the first Institution of our Government to capacitate the Prince to Govern and Protect his People So that for the Parliament to seek to take from him such Authority were to be felo de se as we call a self-Homicide but as in some Distempers of the Body the Head suffers as well as the Inferiour parts so that it is not possible for it to order direct and provide for the whole Body as its Office requires since the Wisdom and Power which is placed there is given by God to that end In which Case though the Distemper of the Body may begin from the Disease of some other part or from the mass of Blood or putrefaction of other Humours yet since that noble part is so affected by it that Reason and Discourse fails therefore to restore this again Remedies must be apply'd to and possibly Humours or Vapours drawn from the Head it self that so it may be able to Govern and Reign over the Body as it did before or else the whole Man like a Slave must be ruled and guided ab extrinseco that is by some Keeper So it is now with us in our Politick Disease where granting if you please that the Distemper does not proceed from the Head but the Corruption of other parts yet in the Cure Applications must be made to the Head as well as to the Members if we mean poor England shall recover its former perfect health and there fore it will be found perhaps Essential to our being to ask something in the condition we now are to which the King as yet may have a Right and which except he please to part with the Phenomena of Government cannot be salved That is our Laws cannot be executed nor Magna Charta it self made practicable and so both Prince and People that is the Polity of England must die of this Disease or by this Delirium must be Governed ab extrinseco and fall to the Lot of some Foregin Power Noble Ven. But Sir since the business is come to this Dilemma why may not the King ask more Power of the Parliament as well as they of him Eng. Gent. No question but our present Councellours and Courtiers would be nibbling at that bait again if they had another Parliament that would take Pensions for their Votes But in one that is come fresh from the People and understand their Sense and Grievances very well I hardly believe they will attempt it for both Council and Parliament must needs know by this time-a-day that the Cause of all our Distractions coming as has been said an hundred times from the King 's having a greater Power already than the condition of Property at this present can admit without Confusion and Disorder It is not like to mend Matters for them to give him more except they will deliver up to him at the same instant their Possessions and Right to their Lands and become Naturally and Politically his Slaves Noble Ven. Since there must be a voluntary parting with Power I fear your Cure will prove long and ineffectul and we Reconcilers shall I fear prove like our devout Cappuchin at Venice this poor Mans name was Fra. Barnardino da Vdine and was esteemed a very holy Man as well as an excellent Preacher insomuch that he was appointed to Preach the Lent Sermons in one of our principal Churches which he performed at the begining with so much Eloquence and Applause that the Church was daily crouded three hours before the Sermon was to begin the esteem and veneration this poor Fryar was in elevated his Spirit a little too high to be contained within the bounds of reason but before his Delirium was perceived he told his Auditory one day that the true Devotion of that People and the care they had to come to hear his word Preached had been so acceptable to God and to the Virgine that they had vouchsafed to Inspire him with the knowledg of an Expedient which he did not doubt but would make Men happy just even in this Life that the Flesh should no longer lust against the Spirit but that he would not acquaint them with it at that present because something was to be done on their parts to make them capable of this great Blessing which was to pray zealously for a happy Success upon his Endeavours and to Fast and to visit the Churches to that end therefore he desired them to come the Wednesday following to be made acquainted with this blessed Expedient You may Imagine how desirous our People were to hear something more of this Fifth-Monarchy I will shorten my Story and tell you nothing of what crouding there was all night and what quarrelling for places in the Church nor with what difficulty the Saffi who were sent by the Magistrate to keep the Paece and to make way for the Preacher to get into the Pulpit did both But up he got and after a long preamable of desiring more Prayers and Addressing
have the full benefit of those Constitutions which were made by our Ancestors for our safe and orderly living our Government is upon a right Basis therefore we must enquire into the Cause why our Laws are not executed when you have found and taken away that Cause all is well The Cause can be no other than this That the King is told and does believe that most of these great Charters or Rights of the people of which we now chiefly treat are against his Majesties Interest though this be very false as has been said yet we will not dispute it at this time but take it for granted so that the King having the Supreme execution of the Laws in his hand cannot be reasonably supposed to be willing to execute them whenever he can chuse whether he will do it or no it being natural for every man not to do any thing against his own Interest when he can help it now when you have thought well what it should be that gives the King a Liberty to chuse whether any part of the Law shall be currant or no you will find that it is the great Power the King enjoys in the Government when the Parliament hath discovered this they will no doubt demand of his Majesty an abatement of his Royal Prerogative in those matters only which concern our enjoyment of our All that is our Lives Liberties and Estates and leave his Royal Power entire and untoucht in all the other branches of it when this is done we shall be as if some great Heroe had performed the adventure of dissolving the Inchantment we have been under so many years And all our Statutes from the highest to the lowest from Magna Charta to that for burying in Woollen will be current and we shall neither fear the bringing in Popery nor Arbitrary Power in the Intervals of Parliament neither will there be any Dissentions in them all Causes of Factions between the Country and Court-party being entirely abolisht so that the People shall have no reason to distrust their Prince nor he them Doct. You make us a fine Golden Age but after all this will you not be pleased to shew us a small prospect of this Canaan or Country of rest will you not vouchsafe to particularize a little what Powers there are in the King which you would have discontinued would you have such Prerogatives abolished or placed elsewhere Eng. Gent. There can be no Government if they be abolished But I will not be like a Man who refuses to sing amongst his Friends at their entreaty because he has an ill Voice I will rather suffer my self to be laught at by you in delivering my small Judgment in this Matter but still with this protestation that I do believe that an Infinity of Men better qualifi'd than my self for such sublime Matters and much more the House of Commons who represent the Wisdom as well as the Power of this Kingdom may find out a far better way than my poor parts and Capacity can suggest The powers then which now being in the Crown do hinder the execution of our Laws and prevent by consequence our happiness and settlement are four The absolute power of making War and peace Treaties and Alliances with all Nations in the World by which means by Ignorant Councellours or Wicked Ministers many of our former Kings have made Confederations and Wars very contrary and destructive to the Interest of England and by the unfortunate management of them have often put the Kingdom in great hazard of Invasion Besides that as long as there is a distinction made between the Court-party and that of the Country there will ever be a Jealousie in the people that those wicked Councellours who may think they can be safe no other way will make Alliances with powerful Princes in which there may be a secret Article by which those Princes shall stipulate to assist them with Forces upon a short warning to curb the Parliament and possibly to change the Government And this apprehension in the People will be the less unreasonable because Oliver Cromwel the great Pattern of some of our Courtiers is notoriously known to have Inserted an Article in his Treaty with Cardinal Mazzarin during this King of France's Minority That he should be assisted with ten thousand Men from France upon occasion to preserve and defend him in his Usurped Government against His Majesty that now is or the People of England or in fine his own Army whose revolt he often feared The Second great Prerogative the King enjoys is the sole Disposal and Ordering of the Militia by Sea and Land Raising Forces Garisoning and Fortifying places Setting out Ships of War so far as he can do all this without putting Taxations upon the People and this not only in the Intervals of Parliament but even during their Session so that they cannot raise the Train-bands of the Country or City to Guard themselves or secure the Peace of the Kingdom The third point is That it is in His Majesties Power to Nominate and Appoint as he pleases and for what time he thinks fit all the Officers of the Kingdom that are of Trust or profit both Civil Military and Ecclesiastical as they will be called except where there is Jus Patronatus These two last Powers may furnish a Prince who will hearken to ill designing Councellours with the means either of Invading the Government by Force or by his Judges and other Creatures undermining it by Fraud Especially by enjoying the Fourth Advantage which is the Laying out and Imploying as he pleases all the Publick Revenues of the Crown or Kingdom and that without having any regard except he thinks fit to the necessity of the Navy or any other thing that concerns the Safety of the Publick So that all these Four great Powers as things now stand may be adoperated at any time as well to destroy and ruine the good Order and Government of the State as to preserve and support it as they ought to do Nob. Ven. But if you divest the King of these Powers will you have the Parliament sit always to Govern these Matters Eng. Gent. Sir I would not divest the King of them much less would I have the Parliament assume them or perpetuate their Sitting They are a Body more fitted to make Laws and punish the Breakers of them than to execute them I would have them therefore petition His Majesty by way of Bill that he will please to exercise these four great Magnalia of Government with the Consent of four several Councils to be appointed for that end and not otherwise that is with the Consent of the Major part of them if any of them dissent In all which Councils His Majesty or who he pleases to appoint shall preside the Councils to be named in Parliament first all the number and every Year afterwards a third part So each Year a third part shall go out and a Recruit of an equal number come
to the Parliament it self and the Execution of all Laws to the Judges and Magistrates And I can think of no other Affairs of State than these Doct. Do you intend that the Council for chusing Officers shall Elect them of the King's Houshold that is his Menial Servants Eng. Gent. No that were unreasonable except any of them have any Jurisdiction in the Kingdom or any place or preheminence in Parliament annexed to such Office but in these things which concern the powers and Jurisdictions of these several Councils wherein la guardia della laberta as Machiavil calls it is now to be placed I shall not persume to say any thing but assure your self if ever it come to that it will be very well digested in Parliament they being very good at contriving such Matters and making them practicable as well as at performing all other Matters that concern the Interest and greatness of the Kingdom Doct. I have thought that the Ephores of Sparta were an admirable Magistracy not only for the Interest of the People but likewise for the preservation of the authority of the Kings and of their lives too for Plutarch observes that the Cities of Mesene and Argos had the same Government with Lacedemon and yet for want of erecting such an Authority as was in the Ephores they were not only perpetually in brolls amongst themselves and for that reason ever beaten by their Enemies whereas the Spartans were always victorious but even their Kings were the most miserable of Men being often call'd in question Judicially and so lost their Lives and many of them murdered by Insurrections of the People And at last in both these Cities the Kings were driven out their Families extirpated the Territory new divided and the Government turn'd into a Democracy And I ever thought that this expedient you propose for I have heard you discourse of it often before now would prove a more safe and a more noble reformation than the Institution of the Ephores was and that a Prince who is a lover of his Country who is Gracious Wise and Just such a one as it has pleased God to send us at this time shall be ten times more absolute when this Regulation is made than ever he was or could be before and that whatsoever he proposes in any of these Councils will be received as a Law nay as an Oracle And on the other side ill and weak Princes shall have no possibility of corrupting Men or doing either themselves or their People any kind of harm or mischief But have you done now Eng. Gent. No Sir when this Provision is made for the Execution of the Laws which I think very effectual not to say Infallible although it is not to be doubted but that there will be from time to time many excellent Laws Enacted yet two I would have passed immediately the one concerning the whole Regulation of the Elections to Parliament which we need very much and no doubt but it will be well done that part of it which is necessary to go hand in hand with our Settlement and which indeed must be part of it is that a Parliament be Elected every year at a certain day and that without any Writ or Summons the People Meeting of course at the time appointed in the usual place as they do in Parishes at the Church-House to chuse Officers and that the Sheriffs be there ready to preside and to certifie the Election And that the Parliament so Chosen shall Meet at the time appointed and Sit and Adjuorn as their business is more or less urgent But still setting yet a time for their coming together again but if there shall be a necessity by reason of Invasion or some other Cause for their Assembling sooner then the King to Call the Councellors of these Four Councels all together and with the consent of the major part of them intimate their Meeting sooner but when the day day comes for the Annual Meeting of Another Parliament they must be understood to be Dissolved in Law without any other Ceremony and the new one to take their place Doct. I would have this considered too and provided for That no Election should be made of any person who had not the majority of the Electors present to Vote for him so the Writ orders it and so Reason dictates for else how can he be said to represent the County if not a fifth part have consented to his choice as happens sometimes and may do oftener for where seven or eight stand for one vacant place as I have know in our last Long Parliament where the Votes being set in Columns he who has had most Votes has not exceeded four hundred of above two thousand who were present Noble Ven. This is a strange way I thought you had put every Man by himself as we do in our Government and as I understood they do in the House of Commons when there is any nomination and then if he has not the major part he is rejected Eng. Gent. This is very Material and indeed Essential but I make no doubt but if this Project should come in play in Parliament this and all other particulars which would be both needless and tedious to discourse of here will be well and effectually provided for The next Act I would have passed should be concerning the House of Peers that as I take it for granted that there will be a Clause in the Bill concerning Elections that no new Boroughs shall be enabled to send Members to Parliament except they shall be capacitated thereunto by an Act so it being of the same necessity as to the Liberty of Parliament that the Peers who do and must enjoy both a Negative and Deliberative Voice in all Parliamentary Transactions except what concern Levying of Money Originally be exempted from depending absolutely upon the Prince and that therefore it be declared by Act for the future that no Peer shall be made but by Act of Parliament and then that it be Hereditary in his Male Line Noble Ven. I am not yet fully satisfied how you can order your Matters concerning this House of Peers nor do I see how the Contests between the House of Commons and them can be so laid asleep but that they will arise again Besides the House of Commons must necessarily be extreamly concerned to find the House of Peers which consists of private persons though very great and honourable ones in an Instant dash all that they have been so long hammering for the good of all the People of England whom they represent were it not better now you are upon so great alterations to make an Annual Elective Senate or at least one wherein the Members should be but for Life and not Hereditary Eng. Gent. By no means Sir the less change the better and in this Case the Metaphysical Maxime is more true than in any viz. Entia non sunt multiplicanda sine necessitate for great alterations fright Men and puzzle them
a Regulation as this come in Debate amongst them the Parliament will reserve to it self the Approbation of the Great Officers as Chancellor Judges General Officers of an Army and the like and that such shall not have a settlement in those Charges till they are accordingly allowed of but may in the mean time exercise them As to particulars I shall always refer you to what the Parliament will judge fit to Order in the Case but if you have any thing to Object or to shew in general that some such Regulation as this cannot be effectual towards the putting our Distracted Country into better Order I shall think my self oblig'd to Answer you if you can have Patience to hear me and are not weary already as you may very well be Noble Ven. I shall certainly never be weary of such Discourse however I shall give you no further trouble in this matter for I am very fully satisfied that such Reformation if it could be compassed would not only Unite all Parties but make you very Flourishing at home and very Great abroad but have you any hopes that such a thing will ever come into Debate what do the Parliament-men say to it Eng. Gent. I never had any Discourse to this purpose either with any Lord or Member of the Commons house otherwise than as possibly some of these Notions might fall in at Ordinary Conversation For I do not intend to Intrench upon the Office of God to teach our Senatours Wisdom I have known some men so full of their own Notions that they went up and down sputtering them in every Mans Face they met some went to Great Men during our late troubles nay to the King himself to offer their Expedients from Revelation Two Men I was acquainted with of which one had an Invention to reconcile differences in Religion the other had a project for a Bank of Lands to lye as a Security for summs of Money lent both these were Persons of Great Parts and Fancy but yet so troublesome at all Times and in all Companies that I have often been forced to repeat an Excellent Proverb of your Country God deliver me from a man that has but one business and I assure you there is no Mans Reputation that I envy less than I do that of such Persons and therefore you may please to believe that I have not imitated them in scattering these Notions nor can I Prophesie whether any such Apprehensions as these will ever come into the Heads of those men who are our true Physitians But yet to answer your Question and give you my Conjecture I believe that we are not Ripe yet for any great Reform not only because we are a very Debauch'd People I do not only mean that we are given to Whoring Drinking Gaming and Idleness but chiefly that we have a Politique Debauch which is a neglect of all things that concern the publick welfare and a setting up our own private Interest against it I say this is not all for then the Polity of no Country could be Redrest For every Commonwealth that is out of order has ever all these Debauches we speak of as Consequences of their loose State But there are two other Considerations which induce me to fear that our Cure is not yet near The first is because most of the Wise and Grave Men of this Kingdom are very silent and will not open their Budget upon any terms and although they dislike the present Condition we are in as much as any Men and see the Precipice it leads us to yet will never open their Mouths to prescribe a Cure but being asked what they would advise give a shrug like your Country-men There was a very considerable Gentleman as most in England both for Birth Parts and Estate who being a Member of the Parliament that was called 1640. continued all the War with them and by his Wisdom and Eloquence which were both very great promoted very much their Affairs When the Factions began between the Presbyters and Independents he joyned Cordially with the latter so far as to give his Affirmative to the Vote of No Addresses that is to an Order made in the House of Commons to send no more Messages to the King nor to receive any from him Afterwards when an Assault was made upon the House by the Army and divers of the Members taken violently away and Secluded he disliking it though he were none of them voluntarily absented himself and continued retired being exceedingly averse to a Democratical Government which was then declared for till Cromwell's Usurpation and being infinitely courted by him absolutely refused to accept of any Employment under him or to give him the least Counsel When Cromwell was dead and a Parliament called by his Son or rather by the Army the chief Officers of which did from the beginning whisper into the Ears of the Leading Members that if they could make an honest Government they should be stood by as the Word then was by the Army This Gentleman at that time neither would be Elected into that Parliament nor give the least Advice to any other Person that was but kept himself still upon the Reserve Insomuch that it was generally believed that although he had ever been opposite to the late King 's coming to the Government again though upon Propositions yet he might hanker after the Restoration of His Majesty that now is But that Apprehension appeared groundless when it came to the pinch for being consulted as an Oracle by the then General Monk whether he should restore the Monarchy again or no would make no Answer nor give him the least Advice and de facto hath ever since kept himself from Publick Business although upon the Banishment of my Lord of Clarendon he was visited by one of the Greatest Persons in England and one in as much Esteem with His Majesty as any whatsoever and desired to accept of some great Employment near the King which he absolutely refusing the same Person not a Stranger to him but well known by him begged of him to give his Advice how His Majesty who desired nothing more than to unite all his People together and repair the Breaches which the Civil War had caused now my Lord Clarendon was gone who by his Counsels kept those Wounds open might perform that Honourable and Gracious Work but still this Gentleman made his Excuses And in short neither then nor at any time before or after excepting when he sate in the Long Parliament of the Year 40. neither during the distracted Times nor since His Majesty's Return when they seemed more reposed would ever be brought either by any private intimate Friend or by any Person in Publick Employment to give the least Judgment of our Affairs or the least Counsel to mend them though he was not shye of declaring his dislike of Matters as they went And yet this Gentleman was not only by repute and esteem a wise Man but was really so as it
appeared by his management of business and drawing Declarations when he was contented to act as also by his exceeding prudent managing of his own Fortune which was very great and his honourable Living and providing for his Family his Daughters having been all Marryed to the best Men in England and his Eldest Son to the most accomplisht Lady in the World I dare assure you there are above an hundred such Men in England though not altogether of that eminency Noble Ven. Methinks these persons are altogether as bad an extreme as the loquacious men you spoke of hefore I remember when I went to School our Master amongst other Common-places in the commendation of silence would tell us of a Latine saying That a Fool whilst he held his peace did not differ from a Wise man but truly I think we may as truly say That a wise man whilst he is silent does not differ from a Fool for how great soever his Wisdom is it can neither get him credit nor otherwise advantage himself his Friend nor his Country But let me not divert you from your other point Eng. Gent. The next Reason I have to make me fear that such an Expedient as we have been talking of will not be proposed suddenly is the great distrust the Parliament has of men which will make most Members shy of venturing at such matters which being very new at the first motion are not perfectly understood at least to such as have not been versed in Authors who have written of the Politicks and therefore the Mover may be suspected of having been set on by the Court-party to puzzle them and so to divert by offering new Expedients some smart mettlesome Debates they may be upon concerning the Succession to the Crown or other high matters For it is the nature of all Popular Counsels even the wisest that ever were witness the people of Rome and Athens which Michiavil so much extols in turbulent times to like discourses that heighten their passions and blow up their Indignation better than them that endeavour to rectifie their Judgments and tend to provide for their safety And the truth is our Parliament is very much to be excused or rather justified in this distrust they have of persons since there hath been of late so many and so successful attempts used by the late great Ministers to debauch the most eminent Members of the Commons-House by Pensions and Offices and therefore it would wonderfully conduce to the good of the Common-wealth and to the composing our disordered State if there were men of so high and unquestionable a Reputation that they were above all suspicion and distrust and so might venture upon bold that is in this case moderate Counsels for the saving of their Country Such men there were in the Parliament of 1640. at least twenty or thirty who having stood their ground in seven Parliaments before which in the two last Kings Reigns had been dissolved abruptly and in wrath and having resisted the fear of Imprisonment and great Fines for their love to England as well as the temptation of Money and Offices to betray it both inferred by the wicked Councellours of that Age tending both to the ruine of our just Rights and the detriment of their Masters Affairs I say having constantly and with great magnanimity and honour made proof of their Integrity they had acquired so great a Reputation that not only the Parliament but even almost the whole People stuck to them and were swayed by them in Actions of a much higher Nature than any are now discoursed of without fear of being deserted or as we say left in the lurch as the people of France often are by their Grandees when they raise little Civil Wars to get great Places which as soon as they are offered they lay down Arms and leave their Followers to be hang'd but although these two reasons of the silence of some wise men and the want of reputation in others does give us but a sad prospect of our Land of Promise yet we have one Consideration which does incourage us to hope better things ere long And that is the Infallible Certainty that we cannot long Continue as we are and that we can never Meliorate but by some such Principles as we have been here all this while discoursing of and that without such helps and succours as may be drawn from thence we must go from one distraction to another till we come into a Civil War and in the close of it be certainly a prey to the King of France who on which side it matters not will be a Gamester and sweep Stakes at last the World not being now equally ballanced between two Princes alike powerful as it was during our last Civil War and if as well this danger as the only means to prevent it be understood in time as no doubt it will we shall be the happiest and the greatest Nation in the World in a little time and in the mean time enjoy the best and most just easie Government of any People upon Earth If you ask me whether I could have offer'd any thing that I thought better than this I will answer you as Solon did a Philosopher who askt him whether he could not have made a better Government for Athens Yes but that his was the best that the People would or could receive And now I believe you will bear me witness that I have not treated you as a Wise man would have done in silence but it is time to put an end to this tittle-tattle which has nauseated you for three days together Noble Ven. I hope you think better of our Judgments than so but I believe you may very well be weary Doct. I am sure the Parish Priests are often thanked for their pains when they have neither taken half so much as you have nor profited their Auditory the hundredth part so much Eng. Gent. The answer to Thank you for your pains is always Thank you Sir for your patience and so I do very humbly both of you Noble Ven. Pray Sir when do you leave the Town Eng. Gent. Not till you leave the Kingdom I intend to see you if please God aboard the Yacht at Gravesend Noble Ven. I should be ashamed to put you to that trouble Eng. Gent. I should be much more troubled if I should not do it in the mean time I take my leave of you for this time and hope to wait on you again to morrow What Doctor you stay to Consult about the Convalescence Adieu to you both Doct. Farewell Sir Nullum numen abest si sit prudentia FINIS
there are and have been so many absolute Monarchies in the World in which it seems that nothing is provided for but the Greatness and Power of the Prince Eng. Gent. I have presumed to give you already my Reason why I take for granted that such a Power could never be given by the Consent of any People for a perpetuity for though the People of Israel did against the will of Samuel and indeed of God himself demand and afterwards chuse themselves a King yet he was never such a King as we speak of for that all the Orders of their Commonwealth the Sanhedrim the Congregation of the People the Princes of the Tribes c. did still remain in being as hath been excellently proved by a learned Gentleman of our Nation to whom I refer you it may then be enquired into how these Monarchies at first did arise History being in this point silent as to the Ancient Principalities we will Conjecture that some of them might very well proceed from the Corruption of better Governments which must necessarily cause a Depravation in manners as nothing is more certain than that Politick defects breed Moral ones as our Nation is a pregnant Example this Debauchery of manners might blind the understandings of a great many destroy the Fortunes of others and make them indigent infuse into very many a neglect and carelesness of the publick good which in all setled States is very much regarded so that it might easily come into the Ambition of some bold aspiring Person to affect Empire and as easily into his Power by fair pretences with some and promises of advantages with others to procure Followers and gain a numerous Party either to Usurp Tyranny over his own Countrey or to lead men forth to Conquer and Subdue another Thus it is supposed that Nimrod got his Kingdom who in Scripture is called a Great Hunter before God which Expositers interpret A great Tyrant The Modern Despotical Powers have been acquired by one of these two ways either by pretending by the first Founder thereof that he had a Divine Mission and so gaining not only Followers but even easie Access in some places without Force to Empire and aftewards dilateing their Power by great Conquests Thus Mahomet and Cingis Can began and established the Sarazen and Tartarian Kingdoms or by a long Series of Wisdom in a Prince or chief Magistrate of a mixt Monarchy and his Council who by reason of the Sleepiness and Inadvertency of the People have been able to extinguish the great Nobility or render them Inconsiderable and so by degrees taking away from the People their Protectors render them Slaves So the Monarchies of France and some other Countries have grown to what they are at this day there being left but a Shadow of the three States in any of these Mocarchies and so no bounds remaining to the Regal Power but since Property remains still to the Subjects these Governments may be said to be changed but not founded or established for there is no Maxim more Infallible and Holding in any Science than this is in the Politicks That Empire is founded in Property Force or Fraud may alter a Government but it is Property that must Found and Eternise it Upon this undeniable Aphorisme we are to build most of our subsequent Reasoning in the mean time we may suppose that hereafter the great power of the King of France may diminish much when his enraged and oppressed Subjects come to be commanded by a Prince of less Courage Wisdom and Military Vertue when it will be very hard for any such King to Govern Tyrannically a Country which is not entirely his own Doct. Pray Sir give me leave to ask you by the way what is the Reason that here in our Country where the Peerage is lessened sufficiently the King has not gotten as great an Addition of Power as accrews to the Crown in France Eng. Gent. You will understand that Doctor before I have finisht this discourse but to stay your Stomach till then you may please to know that in France the greatness of the Nobility which has been lately taken from them did not consist in vast Riches and Revenues but in great Priviledges and Jurisdictions which obliged the People to obey them whereas our great Peers in former times had not only the same great Dependences but very Considerable Revenues besides in Demesnes and otherwise This Vassallage over the People which the Peers of France had being abolisht the Power over those Tenants which before was in their Lords fell naturally and of course into the Crown although the Lands and possessions divested of those Dependences did and do still remain to the Owners whereas here in England though the Services are for the most part worn out and insignificant yet for want of Providence and Policy in former Kings who could not foresee the danger a far off Entails have been suffered to be cut off and so two parts in ten of all those vast Estates as well Mannours as Demesnes by the Luxury and Folly of the Owners have been within these two hundred years purchased by the lesser Gentry and the Commons which has been so far from advantaging the Crown that it has made the Country scarce governable by Monarchy But if you please I will go on with my discourse about Government and come to this again hereafter Noble Ven. I beseech you Sir do Eng. Gent. I cannot find by the small reading I have that there were any other Governments in the World Anciently than these three Monarchy Aristocracy and Democracy For the first I have no light out of Antiquity to convince me that there were in old times any other Monarchies but such as were absolutely Despotical all Kingdoms then as well in Greece as Macedon Epirus and the like and where it is said the Princes exercised their Power moderately as in Asia being altogether unlimited by any Laws or any Assemblies of Nobility or People Yet I must confess Aristotle when he reckons up the Corruptions of these three Governments calls Tyranny the Corruption of Monarchy which if he means a Change of Government as it is in the Corruptions of the other two then it must follow that the Philosopher knew of some other Monarchy at the first which afterwards degenerated into Tyranny that is into Arbitrary Power for so the Word Tyranny is most commonly taken though in modern Languages it signifies the ill Exercise of Power for certainly Arbitrary Government cannot be called Tyranny where the whole Property is in the Prince as we reasonably suppose it to have been in those Monarchies no more than it is Tyranny for you to govern your own House and Estate as you please But it is possible Aristotle might not in this speak so according to Terms of Art but might mean that the ill Government of a Kingdom or Family is Tyranny However we have one Example that puzzles Politicians and that is Egypt where Pharaoh is called King and
yet we see that till Joseph's time he had not the whole Property for the Wisdom of that Patriarch taught his Master a way to make a new use of that Famine by telling him that if they would buy their Lives and sell their Estates as they did afterwards and preserve themselves by the Kings Bread they shall serve Pharaoh which shews that Joseph knew well that Empire was founded in Property But most of the Modern Writers in Polity are of Opinion that Egypt was not a Monarchy till then though the Prince might have the Title of King as the Heraclides had in Sparta and Romulus and the other Kings had in Rome both which States were Instituted Common-Wealths They give good Conjectures for this their Opinion too many to be here mentioned only one is That Originally as they go about to prove all Arts and Sciences had their Rise in Egypt which they think very improbable to have been under a Monarchy But this Position That all Kings in former times were absolute is not so Essential to the intent I have in this Discourse which is to prove That in all States of what kind soever this Aphorisme takes place Imperium fundatur in Dominio So that if there were mixed Monarchies then the King had not all the Property but those who shared with him in the Administration of the Soveraignty had their part whether it were the Senate the People or both or if he had no Companions in the Soveraign Power he had no Sharers likewise in the Dominion or Possession of the Land For that is all we mean by Property in all this Discourse for as for Personal Estate the Subjects may enjoy it in the largest Proportion without being able to invade the Empire The Prince may when he pleases take away their Goods by his Tenants and Vassals without an Army which are his Ordinary Force and answers to our Posse Comitatus But the Subjects with their Money cannot invade his Crown So that all the Description we need make of this Kind or Form of Government is That the whole possession of the Country and the whole power lies in the Hands and Breast of one man he can make Laws break and repeal them when he pleases or dispense with them in the mean time when he thinks fit interpose in all Judicatories in behalf of his Favourites take away any particular mans personal Estate and his Life too without the formality of a Criminal Process or Trial send a Dagger or a Halter to his chief Ministers and command them to make themselves away and in fine do all that his Will or his Interest suggests to him Doct. You have dwelt long here upon an Argumentation That the Ancients had no Monarchies but what were Arbitrary Eng. Gent. Pray give me leave to save your Objections to that point and to assure you first That I will not take upon me to be so positive in that for that I cannot pretend to have read all the Historians and Antiquaries that ever writ nor have I so perfect a memory as to remember or make use of in a Verbal and Transient Reasoning all that I have ever read And then to assure you again that I build nothing upon that Assertion and so your Objection will be needless and only take up time Doct. You mistake me I had no intent to use any Argument or Example against your Opinion in that but am very willing to believe that it may be so What I was going to say was this that you have insisted much upon the point of Monarchy and made a strange description of it whereas many of the Ancients and almost all the Modern Writers magnifie it to be the best of Governments Eng. Gent. I have said nothing to the contrary I have told you de facto what it is which I believe none will deny The Philosopher said it was the best Government but with this restriction ubi Philosophi regnant and they had an Example of it in some few Roman Emperours but in the most turbulent times of the Commonwealth and Factions between the Nobility and the People Rome was much more full of Vertuous and Heroick Citizens than ever it was under Aurelius or Antonius For the Moderns that are of that Judgement they are most of them Divines not Politicians and something may be said in their behalf when by their good Preaching they can infuse into their imaginary Prince who seems already to have an Image of the Power of God the Justice Wisdom and Goodness too of the Deity Noble Ven. We are well satisfied with the Progress you have hitherto made in this matter pray go on to the two other Forms used amongst the Ancients and their Corruptions that so we may come to the Modern Governments and see how England stands and how it came to decay and what must Rebuild it Eng. Gent. You have very good Reason to hasten me to that for indeed all that has been said yet is but as it were a Preliminary discourse to the knowledge of the Government of England and its decay when it comes to the Cure I hope you will both help me for both your self and the Doctor are a thousand times better than I at Remedies But I shall dispatch the other two Governments Aristocracy or Optimacy is a Commonwealth where the better sort that is the Eminent and Rich men have the chief Administration of the Government I say the chief because there are very few ancient Optimacies but the People had some share as in Sparta where they had power to Vote but not Debate for so the Oracle of Apollo brought by Lycurgus from Delphos settles it But the truth is these people were the natural Spartans For Lycurgus divided the Country or Territory of Laconia into 39000 Shares whereof Nine thousand only of these Owners were Inhabitants of Sparta the rest lived in the Country so that although Thucidides call it an Aristocracy and so I follow him yet it was none of those Aristocracies usually described by the Politicians where the Lands of the Territory were in a great deal fewer Hands But call it what you will where ever there was an Aristocracy there the Property or very much the Over-ballance of it was in the hands of the Aristoi or Governours be they more or fewer for if the People have the greatest interest in the Property they will and must have it in the Empire A notable example of it is Rome the best and most glorious Government that ever the Sun saw where the Lands being equally divided amongst the Tribes that is the People it was impossible for the Patricii to keek them quiet till they yielded to their desires not only to have their Tribunes to see that nothing passed into a Law without their consent but also to have it declared that both the Consuls should not only be chosen by the people as they ever were and the Kings too before them but that they might be elected too when the