spiritual Jurisciction but unto all kind of temporals belonging to their respective Sees and were both created and commanded home to Ireland as others their Predecessors had been in so great number immediately before the last Rebellion in 1641 of purpose to try their fortune or what they might do for playing the old game over again And in the fourth place by entreating you moreover to reflect on all the Particulars of the foresaid Oath in which particulars those Papal Bishops bind themselves with so much solemnity and Sacriledg to be Traitors certainly at least to a Protestant King and Kingdome unless peradventure you think that neither that neither the Popes Canon Law nor Council of Trent nor Bulla Coenae nor Court of Rome it self nor these Bishops themselves hold Protestants to be either Hereticks or Schismaticks or that you see not how these Bishops bind themselves even to persecute to their power all Hereticks Schismaticks whatsoever And how if they will not be and continue Traitors to the King they must be at Rome esteemed even perjured Villains and Rebels too against the Pope whom they do as they are indeed by the tenor of the said Oath obliged to maintain to be doubtless the only Supream Lord of Ireland yea England c both in temporals and Spirituals Now what confidence thâ—nk you can be by a Protest n King or people reposed in such men even what ever they may chance say or swear hereafter who of their own free accord nay desire ambition and mighâ—y solicitation that I may say no more put an absolute necessity on themselves even at their holy Consecration either to be Traitors perpetually to the King or continually perjured to the Pope Though otherwise I must confess they are by the eternal Law of God and man and reason also bound to be so perjured I say that to let pass at present all these considerations and many more too which no less materially than occasionally might be returned to your answer videlicet either that of your remaining still of your former opinion or that which in effect is the same of you not believing that Bishops are made any where upon those terms except perhaps in the Popes own Territories nor to press you at all with those insoluble arguments being you not only seem to be an absolute stranger to all affairs in the Kingdom of Ireland wherein I cannot be so as having a good part of my estate lying there upon the account of an old Adventurer by the Act of Decimo septimo Caroli primi but you also and indeed no less plainly then honestly condemn that wicked Traiterous nay cruel too and barbarous Oath albeit indeed the chief support nay together with the Profession of Faith and other Oath also therâ— in contained ordered by Pius the 4th to be maâ—e and sworn both by all whatsoever Bishops and by all Dignitaries too yea all Canons Parsons Curats all beneficed Clerkwhâ—tsoever that have the care of Souls yea also by all Superiors of Monasteries Convents Houses Places of Regular Orders understand Orders not mendicant even those also of Millitary Orders the only support of the otherwise tottering Papacy I say therefore that not to give you any more trouble at present with those or any other such however material replies nor expecting any râ—joynder from you to them what I am to tell you now is first my own Ingenuous acknowledgment that if but even all the rest you say be true your Religion as it is does not make you all stupid And that for ought I perceive there be honest and sensible men among you The next is that notwithstanding all your seeming candor I cannot thorowly believe you while you hold the Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks For if indeed you hold this tenent who can be perswaded there is any trust so much as to your solemn promises much less private Protestations P. Shall I give you a short answer Being you acquit me at present of all the rest Whoever holds so hang him up in Gods name for no honest man will think him worthy to live Many of you deal with us both at home and abroad I hope you find us deal as fairly as oâ—her men Not but that you may have met with Knaves for there are Knaves and honest men of all professions But he that cheats one of another Religion would not spare one of his own I warrant him As for the truth of whaâ— I say ' tâ—s easie to try Cherish with some comfortable moderation and take into the protection of the Law such as shall secure you in the manâ—er you shall think fit that they truly are so perswaded as I have informed you for I have already toâ—d you that every body will be shy to offend the Popâ— and not be secure so much as of protection But shew indulgence to those who shall renounce the power which you except against to depose Kings and dispose of Kingdoms and if the Statutes of Praemunire and the rest be not enough find out what more punishment you please for those who shall receive and obey decrees sent from Rome without allowance of the State And for those who refuse to give you such security treat them wâ—â—◠〈◊〉 severity you please N. What think you Friend to my apprehension this seems but fair For methinks 't is a preposterous cross piece of Wisdom to be perpetual y disquieting our selves with fears of Papists and not admit them to secure us against those fears As if we were afraid not to be afraid of them or as if it were for our tâ— est to keep up our jealousies and not suffer them by any means to be taken away F. I am of the mind but yet while people remember Queen Marys days the Powder Treason the Massacres in France and Ireland and Inquisition every where things as manifest as horrid I doubt they will always be afraid though I see withall it is somthing hard to make those who live now bear the blame both of past generations and other Nations P. You would think it yet harder if you knew how truly we abhor such things and how little share Religion had in them It was the influence which the severe humour had of King Philip had upon the Counsels of England which brought that blemish upon Queen Marys days He was one who thought violent remedies the best insomâ—â—h that he spared not the Ashes of a man in whose arms his own Father had yielded up his breath By his inflexible fiâ—ure upon such courses He lost the Low Countrys and is become an example to the world how little severity is proper in matters of Religion For had the cruelty of those days been effectualy to the ends for which it was used you had not been now to upbraid us with it Religion was not the cause of the Massacres you mention but Fear of a powerful faction in France and Hate of a forreign and commanding nation in Ireland In both
had any Prisons in which to keep men against their will and every man were noâ— free to leave us when he pleases as I suppose few would stay who should find themselves so deluded 'T is likely you may know some pray enquire of them whether they have more obtruded on them after they came to us than they were made acquainted with before Here is that Authors affirmation and my denyal believe neither of us but satisfie your self of those who can speak of their own knowledge N. I am glad to perceive the breach is not altogether so wide as some imagine but yet there is one reason which makes me despair of any good And that is because you are and must be always Enemies to the State Believe me our Church will no more harbor Traytors than Hippocrites P. Enemies to the state and Traitors God forbid N. Be not offended at the harshness of my Language which I use not for malice but to speak properly and call things by their own names 'T is not tâ—at I charge you with actual Treason but with Doctrines which wiâ—l make you traytors when ever they be put in practise And in my opinion there is not much difference betwixt an actual Traytor and one who is ready to be so as soon as there is occasion P. Truely I think there is not F. If you think so I do not see how you can be excused That power which the Pope claims to depose Kings and dâ—â—pose of Kingdoms is so destructive to the safety of Princes and qâ—iet of Kingdoms that you must needs see you cannot be good Subjects while you believe it Neither can you be Papists if you believe it not The Pope will no more endure you not to hold it than States can be safe where you do P. This is a Topick which never fails when any one has a mind to declaim against Papists It has been often objecteâ— and as often answered Since you oblige me to speak of it let me tell you you are wonderfully out in your apprehension of things If the Pope should break wâ—th all who believe noâ— that Power in him he would quickly have but a thin Communion I am yet to learn the naâ—e and situation of that Counâ—ry which belieâ—es it F. How of that Country As if it were not beleev'd in all Countrys of your Communion And that we may not doubt of it Bellarmine against Barclay produces writers of all Countrys who maintain it I think he musters them up to 72 but sure they are not like the Disciples butonly in number P. Bellarmine had undertaken to maintain that position and makes as good a shew as he can From the beginning of the world or rather from Gregory 7th who is his first man he has found out the number you mention and others cite twice as many agâ—â—nst â—iâ— some the very same alledgâ—d by him How pertinâ—ntly on either sidâ— we cannot now examine But I never thâ—â—â—ht of denying those Doctrines may be found in Books I deny there is any Nation to be found which believe them Authors mâ—y â—â—ite and yet find few who give credit to what they say If we would know what people believe we must consider what they do not what Scholars write For let them write upon what motives they will people certainly act according as they are perswaded Now to come to particulars there are few Nations where the Neighbourhood gave opportunity but have at some time or other been at open enmity with the Pope The Spaniards who are thought the most devoted to him have taken hâ—m Prisoner The Dâ—ke of Atva himself commanded an Army against him and forc'd him to his terms of Peace The Venetians not to mention other breaches were so resolute in their contest with Paul 5th that it came to an Interdict And they neither obeyed it nor would be brought by any sollicitation of powerful Mediators to accept of absolution Other Princes of Italy have been at wars with him and that lately in the times of Vrban the 8 h. and Innocent the 10th Of the French we shall speak by and by but these have had as many and as great contrasts with him as any other Which of all these Princes has been deserted by his Subjects or found them less ready to stand by them against the Pope than against anothâ—r man Had they indeed believed aright in the Pope to depâ—â—e Princes and dispose of Kingdoms they must needs taken his part and left their own Princes defenceless But you see no such thing has happened and may therefore certainly conclude they believe no such power The pretence of it may be sometimes used to colour an unjustifiable action when people can get no better but I am confident there is no Prince or people in the world who truely believe it F. Truely I know not what to say to you what you alledge is manifest and knoâ—n to the world though I did not reflâ—ct on it before But how comes it that Doctrines so little believ'd are so openly maintain'd and so maintain'd that they are alltogether in vogue and the contrary hardly find maintainers P. The contrary Doctrine never wants maintainers when there is occasion neither are they the less numerous or the less considerable for making the less noise whereof the reason is the eagerness with which the Pope espouses an opinion so favourable to him which hinders us from being willing to do any thing which we think he would take ill And so we let people talk as they please till there be a necessity of declaring plainly what we think And then it plainly appears that the sence of the world is very different from the thoughts of those writers how much soever they be cryed up Neither are the maintainers even among writers so few as you imagine I am sure in our Nation there have been more Catholick Writers against it than for it Thirteen eminent men subscribed a loyal profession to Queen Elizabeth even alter the Bull of Pius the 5th came oâ—t to whom sayes Widdrington thrice thirteen would willingly have been added had they not been prevented by the sudden publication of that profession And when Campian Sherwin and some others gave evasions instead of answers to the Questions about the Power of the Pope and Queen one Iohn Bishop a man devoted to the See of Rome says Mr. Cambden wrote against them and foundly proved that that constitution of the Lateran Council obtruded under that name upon which the whole authority of absolving Subjects from their Allegiance and deposing Princes is founded is no other than a Decree of Pope Innocent the 3d. and was never admitted in England Yea that the said Council was no Council at all nor was any thing at all there decreed by the Fathers F. But why do Princes permit the course of such Doctrines which cannot but be dangerous if ever the people should come to be perswaded of them as if they go on uncheckt 't is like enough they
sedis gratia but leave Apostolica sedis quite out The Recourse which is now had to him I believe was occasioned by the frequent abuses which happened in promotions and which is thought so far from necessary even now that if I mistake not the Canons are still in force which order that unless he provide for a vacant Sea within a time limited and that no long one the three next Bishops shall make one without more ado However this collation of Bishopricks by the Pope is plainly by Canon Law and subject to the contingencies and nature of other Canons â— To let pass at present what you answer only and meâ— thinks unsatisfactorily as before of your remaining â—ilâ— of your former opinion so here again of your not believing that Bishops are made any where upon those terms except perhaps in the Popes own Territories and not to press you further home on this poâ—nt First by telling you not with any perhaps or peradventure but most certainly that all Bishops either named created confirmed or consecrated by virtue of the Popes Bulls not only for his own temporal Territories but for any where else throughout the world are made upon those termes and that no less certainly that very Pontificale Romanam which prescribes the aforesaid Oath to be taken by all Arch Bishops and all Bishops and all Abbots too at their consecration nay and to be taken twice by every Arch Bishop videlicet first at his Consecration and the second time at his receiving the Pallium is no less the Pontifical now in use throughout all Churches acknowledging the Popes Supremacy than the Roman Breviary and the Roman Missal are are the only Breviary and Missal now in publick use in the same Churches as it is known they are Secondly by assuring you also there are even at this present within his Majesties Dominions nay in one of them i. e. Ireland residing now publickly enough at home in their Diocesses at least nine Ticular new Bishops and â—ower also new Arch-Bishops in all thirteen besides two more alive still of the old Nuncio Bishops and every one of them created by the Pope within these four laâ—st years since 1669 consecrated according to the prescription of that Roman Pontifical only and sworâ— the Popes devoted Bondslaves for ever by that very Oath that Oath which you please to call it either of strictest however sacrilegious fidelity to the Pope or of most perâ—idious Treachery against the King and Kingdom for it is both and you your self will easily believe they do will hold to it being they are so far from thinking not only not to renounce all nay nor any of the words comprised in the Popes respective Bulls to them made of their several Bishopricks which be contrary or prejudicial to the King our sovereign Lord and to his Crown nor only not so much as to renounce any part of those even most notoriously Traiterous promises of the aforesaid Oath not even so much as virtually or indirectly or even implicitely to renounce any part of them by taking either the usual Oaths of Supremacy or Allegiance or even any other kind of Oath of fidelity to the King that on the contrary it is manifestly known they have all of them ever since their Consecration made it their work not only to suppresâ— utterly that now so lamed Irish Remonstrance or profession of fidelity to the King in all temporal affairs according to the Laws of the Land presented to and accepted by his Majesty in the year 1661 but also to prosecute with incredible malice for so many years all those other Irish Ecclesiasticks of their Church who in the said year or any time since had signed as only for having signed that Formulory until at last by such wicked ways they have forced most of these forlorn subjects forlorn I call them because of one side persecuted by the Pope and of the other not protected by our Laws to retract their subscription and consequently and even under their own hands to renounce utterly their allegiance to the King nay even also and which must be consequential to disclaim their acknowledgment of his being their King at all in any matter or cause whatsoever being he cannot be acknowledged King at all if he be not acknowledged King at least in all civil and temporal affairs according to the Laws of the Land or in indispensable Obedience and Faith be not acknowledged to be due to him in such matters from all his Subjects Thirdly by desiring you to consider that of all the Roman Catholicks by all right and Laws subject to the King the great and considerable body indeed is only the Irish Nation instructed now and wholy as to point of Conscience governed by those very Bishops and Arch-Bishops how apt as those instructors so the instructed Irish generally taken are in the present conjuncture for any kind of bad impressions from abroad and consequenâ—ly for another fatal revolution at home and what other probable design then that of preparing them for a new rebellion in due time or fit opportunity at home couâ—d therâ— be in those eager persecutions continued so inexorably scandalously and incessantly these eleven years past both by the Court of Rome abroad and by all its Emissaries at home although more violently and confidently these four last years by the foresaid new Bishops and Arch-Bishops and all their underlings and other adherents against so innocent a profession of Allegiance or promise of Obedience in temporal things onâ—y to the King Nay what other probable design could there be but that of creating in and commanding home too and crouding in that Kingdom so many titular Bishops and Arch-Bishops besides Vicars Apostolick with Episcopal jurisdiction in so many other of the vacant Sees and besides too so many Nunciotist Provincials of Regular Orders and Abbots also and that immediately upon the Duke of Ormonds removal from that Government in the year 1669 Bishops and Arch-Bishops without Benefice without Revenue without Patrimony or other means to maintain them but what they get neither by preaching nor praying but by poling and pilling and fleecing and flaying the poor both Priests and people under their pretended jurisdiction though withal I must confess devouâ—ing even already in hopes those indeed considerable Temporalties which the Protestant Bishops enjoy at present according to Law Pluncket of Ardmagh 5000 l. a year old Revenue lawfully as yet possessed by Margetson of the same See Talbot of Dublin thetwo or 3000 l. of that See also which Boyl or Michael Dubliniensis hath now in legal possession and so for the rest all over Ireland respectively Which Revenues as they were one of the chief causes of the last Rebellion think you they may not in all likelyhood be of another yet in our days Being those Papal Bishops hold these Royal Prelates to be meer usurpers even of those very temporal revenues and know themselves are entituled by the Popes Bulls not only to the