Selected quad for the lemma: kingdom_n
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A83819
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The report made to the honourable House of Commons, Decemb. 15. 1699. By the commissioners appointed to enquire into the forfeited estates of Ireland
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Ireland. Commissioners appointed to enquire into the Forfeited Estates.
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1700
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Wing E2704AC; ESTC R200771
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32,947
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56
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I had the favour to be visited sometimes with ten or a dozen in an Evening sometimes twice the number of the People of the best Fashion in that Country and amongst the rest my own Brethren often obliged me with their Company without doubt in this time many subjects were discoursed of but the particulars of any one discourse I do not remember I never treasure up what is said in private Conversation and if I did I scorn to tell it Mr. Speaker Mr. Langford you hear what the Gentlemen have given an account of 't is of what passed between you about putting the private Estate into the Report and whether upon my Ld Dr-gh-da's saying it would be a flying in the King's face Mr. Hamilton answered Our Commission flies in the King's face Mr. Langford I was present when this debate happened about the private Estate and it was with a great deal of heat It was objected by my Ld Dr-gh-da that it would be a flying in the King's face to report the private Estate and was not in our Commission It was answered by Mr. Trenchard we had that too often mentioned to put us by the Execution of this Commission that we did not think the discovering Abuses a flying in the King's Face but that on the contrary we should do Service to his Majesty to lay the matter before him that he might see how the Grants were disposed of and how he was deceived in them and he thought it was also necessary that both this House and the Kingdom should know it Mr. Speaker What did Mr. Hamilton say Mr. Langford I did not hear Mr. Hamilton speak one word relating to the King or this Point Mr. Speaker Do you know of any Letters from Members of this House Mr. Langford No Sir I had not the Honour to be acquainted with many Members I had no Letter my self nor did I see any Mr. Speaker You are accused about words of your own Members Do not ask him to that Mr. Speaker Mr. Hooper You hear to what purpose you are called in Mr. Hooper Yes I do the whole matter seems strange to me I have not been absent from the Board except when I was sick at Limerick one hour during the whole Execution of this Commission nor did I hear one word spoken reflecting upon his Majesty unless the insinuation that doing our Duty would be flying in the King's Face which I think was a great reflection upon him and I think Mr. Trenchard has very well repeated his own words I am sure in substance they are the same I am confident there was no Letter produced whilst I was at the Board from any Member and I believe by what Conversation I had with the four Commissioners they never had any but what was fit to be produced and for the substance of what Mr. Annesly and Mr. Trenchard have said I know it to be true I never heard Mr. Hamilton speak but with great Honour of the King and I do positively assert to the best of my Memory he never said any such thing as is alledged against him at the Board I am confident I was present at all the Debates about the private Estate and do remember three dissenting Commissioners did immediately declare themselves against the inserting it in the Report three others that are present did as readily declare for it so that Mr. Hamilton being in a manner solely left to determine this matter complained that it was a great Hardship upon him for says he my Lord Ork y is my Relation and my Friend and besides I am a Tenant to the private Estate and 't is very severe that the decision of this matter should lie upon me He added he should be very well pleased if the Objection had been made sooner and perhaps it might have had more weight with him and truly Mr. Speaker it did not appear that there was one of the Commissioners for above five Months but seemed to be peremptory for the Reporting it and accordingly Sir Richard Leving and Sir Francis Brewster joined in the Examination of many Witnesses to the value of it at Limerick and other places till about five days before the Power of the Commission ceased when I moved the Board that I might have some Direction about that Estate and they made an Order that I should immediately prepare the Report and put this in it And Mr. Hamilton gave this Reason when he joined with the Commissioners We have made so great a noise about this Estate by examining so many People to the Value and sending for the Rent Rolls of it that it is now the publick Discourse that it will be Reported and I know the World must needs say that we are Bribed and Corrupted if we do it not if it was possible I should be glad to be excused but I will rather lose my Friend I will rather lose my little Estate than be thought guilty of Bribery and Corruption and so gave his Consent to the Reporting of it and for the words relating to flying in the King's Face I affirm they are false Sir F. Brewster I desire to speak a few words You were pleased to ask me to give an Account of what passed about the words flying in the King's Face and I find the House expects I should give an Account of the whole that passed then and I beg leave to say farther that when the Debate was about the private Estate and those words were said about flying in the King's Face which my Ld Dr-gh-da and others will take their Oaths of and I believe Mr. Hamilton will not deny at the same time this was said by Mr. Trenchard I hear you talk of flying in the King's Face I hope 't is not flying in his Face but this I must tell you 't is a villanous Grant and ought to be exposed upon his speaking so words arose and that Gentleman gave me ill Language but my Language was not so bad but he was forced to beg my Pardon at the Board and I did not his there he stands let him deny it if he can Mr. Trenchard Sir it is true I did ask his Pardon and the Occasion was this as Mr. Annesly has acquainted you I was provoked by his opprobrious Language to reply I feared him in no Capacity but as an Evidence which he took very heinously he repeated the word Evidence he said 't was below a Gentleman below a Man of Honour that such a one ought to be shunn'd by all civil Conversation that I had better have stuck a Dagger in his Heart than have called him an Evidence which now I think Mr. Speaker he won't resent so highly This put the Board in great disorder and one of the Commissioners whispered to me I think it was the absent Member but I am sure all agreed in it you know he is a very simple old Fellow and tho he gave the Affront you are in the wrong that you are capable of being Angry with him Truly Sir
the 13th of February 1688. When that was said there was another of the Commissioners that did say I was always of opinion that this was a Forfeiture within the Act because tho King James had not forfeited before yet he coming into Ireland on March 15. 1688. he committed Treason against King William and Queen Mary and forfeited that Estate It was then objected that this private Estate of the late King was parcel of the Possessions of the Crown of England and was vested in him as parcel of the Crown of England and the Crown being vested in K. William and Queen Mary by an Act of Parliament made in this Kingdom which settled the Crown in K. William and Q. Mary the Crown and all the Possessions were vested in them Feb. 13. 1688. so that that Estate being actually in his Majesty then and tho otherwise it might have been conceived that K. James had forfeited afterwards tho not then attainted it could not be conceived how he could forfeit that Estate because it was before in the King and Queen And the same Gentleman that urged that upon the 15th of March King James landed in Ireland and committed Treason pleased to say I don't dislike the 30th of January nor the Deed that was done that Day I like both the Day and the Deed. I confess I was surprized at it and said if those be your Reasons and this is your Agreement I declare I will never join in it One of the Commissioners at this time was absent but the next day that Gentleman was brought into the Room with the other Commissioners and then this was debated again and upon that Debate much of that matter was spoke over again not that relating to the 30th of January but then it was again urged that that Estate might be said to be forfeited and the same Objections were repeated and it seemed to be assented to by the other Commissioners that it was not strictly a Forfeiture and some of them said it might not be within the Commission then it was asked Why then will you report it And one of the Gentlemen did answer that it was a villanous Grant and therefore fit to be exposed I did not write down the words at that time because I had then no intention of making any complaint or publishing these matters But since they have cut off our Hands and Seals from the Report it made us think it necessary to do what we have done And it being said by a Commissioner not here but in Ireland If we take it not to be within our Commission why will you do it why will you report it for it will fly in the King's Face To which another answered Why the Commission flys in the King's Face if you won't fly in his Face you can't execute this Commission or you must not execute it one of them two Upon this it was further urged That this matter should be reported and one of the Commissioners said Tho it was not clearly within the Act yet he had received several Letters from several Members of this House to report this matter and he said it was as good or contained in the Letter that it was as good do nothing as not to report it There was upon this an expression by one of the Commissioners that a great Person was concerned That was my Lady Ork-y and the application of that was that if he was so tender of that Person we should not join with them in any thing else For Sir the Debate was grown to this pass whether if we did not join in this thing we should join in any thing else This I think is the substance of what I told that worthy Member if I am asked as to any other Person I shall give you a true Account Mr. Speaker I am commanded to ask you who was by upon this discourse between you and the rest of the Commissioners concerning the differences in opinion and how many and particularly at that time that one of the Commissioners did say that he thought that since it was not in your Commission to report that Grant it would be a flying in the King's Face c. Sir R. Leving It was the day that the Commissioner that was sick first came to us I believe about the 24th of October last There was present at that time the Lord Dr-gh-da Sir Francis Brewster Mr. Annesly Mr. Trenchard Mr. Hamilton Mr. Langford the Secretary and my self all were in the room when this was said Mr. Speaker Who was it said it was a flying in the King's Face and who made answer that the Commission did fly in the King's Face Sir R. Leving It was my Lord Dr-gh-da said the first part and Mr. Hamilton was the Person that said the other Mr. Speaker Who said that concerning the 30th of January that it was a good Day and a good Deed Sir R. Leving That was the day before the other Discourse was there was all but Mr. Trenchard who was sick and came next day Mr. Speaker Who said it and upon what occasion Sir R. Leving It was not a particular direction to any person as I remember but it was spoke by way of Answer it was told Mr. Langford when he came in the Objection that was made against this being returned as a Forfeiture c. And then he said I was always of opinion that this was a Forfeiture and that Kings might forfeit as well as others and he thereupon said he did not dislike the 30th of January Mr. Speaker You mentioned that some of the Commissioners said they received Letters from Members of Parliament to insert this Grant into the Report Please to repeat who had them and from whom Sir R. Leving The first time I heard mention of any such Letter was the first night After we rose we went to Mr. Trenchard's Chamber who was sick to consult for this Debate occasioned some concern in our minds and we did apprehend some breach amongst us and went to his Chamber to see if we could come to an accommodation and offered Mr. Trenchard and the rest of the Gentlemen present That if they would take the whole Report without the private Estate and sign it we could join with them and if they would put in an Article of the private Estate they might sign it by themselves for we thought if we could not agree to it we would be no hindrance to them if they thought fit to do it and then Mr. Trenchard said he had Letters from several Members to report this private Estate and that it would signify nothing if we did not report it Mr. Speaker Did he say that from himself or that it was in any Letter Sir R. Leving I do not say that positively he shew'd me no Letter Mr. Speaker Did he name any Member Sir R. Leving I do not remember that he named any Member Mr. Speaker Who was present at that time in Mr. Trenchard's Chamber Sir R. Leving Most of those Gentlemen I have