hath appointed Church seruaunts and widowes to the same purpose vnder the Gospell Heere by good reades thou seest that not onely wee but the holie ghost also saith those thinges concerning the regiment of the Church hoth vnder the new and olde Testament which Maister Bancroft is not able to gaine say with any colour of truth And yet it were season that either his answere or his consent should be had M. BANCROFT This forme of gouernement they cal the tabernacle which God hath appointed the glory of God and of his sonne Iesus Christ the presence of God the place which he hath chosen to put hi◠name there the courte of the Lord and the shining forth of Gods glory ANSVVERE Although I deny not but the true gouernement of the Church by the Eldershippe might haue the most of these titles truly attributed vnto it wherewith the visible Church vnder the new Testament is adorned yet the most of those names which you set downe being something insolent and strange I make no doubt but all modest writers would abstaine from them Especially knowing how subiect this cause in our time is vnto the godlesse cauils of suche as care not what they write to the disgrace thereof And because you haue set them down with out any authority for mine owne part I can no otherwise thinke of them then of the brood of your owne slaunderous spirite whereunto you can find no couert vnder the wings of your aduersaries whē you haue produced your witnesses to prooue them none of yours I will in this point alter mine opinion and it stands you vpon to cleare your selfe That which followeth in your Sermon doeth manifest both your ignorance in the cause and also that you haue so acquainted your tongue and pen with vntruthes that you are a stranger vnto the wordes of veritie and vprightnes your wordes are these D. BANCROFT page 6. line 13. VVhere this ecclesiastical Synod is not erected they say Gods ordinance is not performed the office of Christ as he is a King is not acknoledged in effect with out this gouernement we can neuer attaine to a right and trewe feeling of christian religion but are to be reckoned among those Luke 19.27 who say of Christ we wil not haue this man to raigne ouer vs. ANSVVERE As though we desire ecclesiastical Synods to be erected in euery congregation and parish or that we make no difference betwene a Synod which is a meeting of al the ministers and elders if occasion should require or more properly of some choise ministers and elders in a whole prouince or more generall and the Eldershippe which containeth the gouernors to wit the Pastors Doctors and elders of one only congregation The reader may se what a meet man you are to be an inueigher against the eldership whereas you knowe not what it meaneth and whether a Synod and an Eldership be al one or not Where this forme of ecclesiastical gouernement is not erected there indeed we say that Gods ordinance concerning the regiment of his church is not wholy obserued but that his whole ordinance is wanting where there is a faythful teacher we neuer as yet affirmed And therefore if by your generall speach that wee say Gods ordinance is not performed c. you meane that we denye any part thereof to be where the gouernement by the Eldership is not established you doe but followe your owne humor that is beare false witnesse against the truth and those that professe the same The office of Christ as he is a King is boath to teach and to gouerne his church by his own lawes Our Bishops doe professe them selues to robbe the church of the scepter of gouernement which they haue tyranuously wrested to them selues therefore we truly say that they suffer Christ to haue but halfe a kingdome at the most vnder their jurisdiction and that we feare ful sore against their wills we grant indeed that many congregations in the land doe enjoy Christ Iesus raigning among them by the scepter of his word and wee doe day and night according vnto our weake measure of faith heartily thanke our God for this blessing and beseeche him from the bottome of our hearts to shew mercy vnto our soueraigne Queene Elizabeth vnder whose peaceable gouernment we are partakers of so inestimable a treasure Yet notwithstanding it is too well knowen what a straunger the sauiour of mankinde is to the most part within our lande because the voyce of his gospell is neuer effectually heard among them and so wee may truly say that the office of Christ as he is a king is no wise acknoledged vnder the jurisdiction of our Bishops in many places of our land Againe we do so thanke the Lord for the enjoying of his Gospel preached as we cease not humbly to intreate his majestie that leeing hee hath vouchsafed vs the lauour to bee of his householde it would also please him that wee may bee ruled by the offices and lawes of his owne house For what hath the Temple of God to doe with the gouernement and statutes of the kingdome of Antichrist And we doe protest that wee will giue him no rest vntill hee hath vouchsaued to heare our supplications euen in this point And yet in the meane time we doe acknowledge his office as he is a king and doe professe our selues without this Gouernement which wee labour for to haue attained vnto some right and true feeling of christian religion though not to such a measure as we hope to reach vnto whensoeuer the Lord shall graunt vnto vs the vse of his holy ordinaunce which wee so earnestly desire This may serue M. Bancroft for a sufficient confutation of your loose and vnbridled tongue which are not ashamed to publish that without this gouernement we holde that men can neuer attaine vnto a right and true feeling of religion we haue euermore affirmed the contrary are able to proue the contrary For wee holde that those 3000. soules which in one day were added vnto the Church at Ierusalem Act. 2.41 before the Eldership was established among the disciples had a true feeling of religion wee say the same of the Church of Creta Tit. 1.5 euen before euer Titus ordained elders in euery citie among them The like iudgement wee haue of the church of England at this day But as the spirite of God recordeth that notwithstanding these Churches of Ierusalem and Creet had a true feeling of Christ yet it behooued them to submit themselues according vnto Gods ordinance vnto the gouernement of the Eldership which a Act. 15.4.6 Titus 1.5 they enioyed So say wee of our selues in Englande and of all other Churches in our case that although our knowledge and feeling were neuer so great as alas it is but too too slender yet are we to be built further and further and wrought vppon by all the holy ordinances of God least wee be depriued of that inheritance which is to bee had among
do the same Concerning the preheminence in ciuill causes there is no great question he wil say between vs Page 71. only in ecclesiastical matters we assume vnto our selues saith he that authoritie which by right is the magistrats This slander is general we desire the particular proofe of it wee cannot answere generalles hee repheth that the magistrate by lawe is to haue whatsoeuer priuiledg the pope at any time had with in this land by vsurpation Page 70. lin 3. what will hee conclude hereof Not I hope that the magistrate is to haue the power of remitting sinnes and dispensing with the law of God which the Pope by vsurpation had in times past within this kingdome Her Maiestie wee know detesteth al such prerogatiues from her hart But what is it that he requireth to be graunted vnto the ciuil authoritie which wee yelde not most willingly The power to establish godly ecclesiastical lawes and constitutions amongest the subiects wee are so far from denying this that wee holde it intollerable that our Bishops and the conuocation house should intrude their subscriptions aduertisements and cannons vpon the subjectes whereas no such things can be warraÌ„ted by statute And whereas hee sayth that wee claime vnto our Presbiteries the ordinary authoritie to make al lawes constitutions and ceremonies of the Church it is most false Al that wee affirme in this point is noe more then her majestie voluntarily yealdeth in all such cases when the question is whether such or such a case be statute law or not whether doth M. Bancroft think her majestie or her learned councel in the lawe as her judges Solliciters Atturneis c. to haue greatest skill in the deciding of this matter he knoweeth well enough that her Majesty in all such points will be directed by that which her aforesaid lawiers do prooue to be law and equitie and yet thinketh her royall prorogatiue no whit diminshed thereby In the like case then we say that the true gouernors of the church are meetest to direct her majesty what lawes and ceremonies are most lawfull expedient necessary for the right gouernment of the church And we say that as her majestie in worldly matters is to giue eare vnto the Lawiers which haue skill in that facultie so in the matters of God is she to establish nothing in the church but that which the true ministers and true gouernors if they may bee had shall shew vnto her to be according vnto the worde of GOD. And yet all this while wee make not the gouernours of the Church to haue power to enact laws we leaue that authoritie vnto her Majesty and the Parliament vnto whose hands the Lord hath committed it This indeed we affirme Moreouer that her majesty and the Parliament are bound to establish and erect amongst their subiects al such lawes and ceremonies as the true Ministers of the word shall prooue by the Scriptures of God to bee meet and necessary for the gouernment of the temple and house of the Lord within this kingdome And that they are bound to see that no forme of religion or Church-gouernment be in force amongst the subjectes but that alone which by the word of God may bee prooued lawfull and so that they are bound to see that the Church of God bee clensed and purified of all Idolatrous popish superstious and superfluous gouernment and ceremonies And furthermore we say that they are to prouide by law that all persons both Ministers and others doe submit themselues without contradiction vnto all such things as shall bee godly established in the Church Whether this bee M. Bancroft to weaken or call into question her Maiesties prerogatiue in Ecclesiastical causes let the reader determin We would also desire him to iudge whether her Majestie be well vsed at your hands which call her a petty Pope and say that shee vsurpeth the same authority in causes page 68. lin 2â— Ecclesiasticall with in her dominions which the pope did in times past Had we coÌ„ceiued much lesse published any such things wee had worthily smarted for it Your answere heere will be that you did bring in this reason to shew the weakenes of Martins arguments against the Bishops Let Martin in other points answere for himselfe The case of her Majestie and our Bishops are not alike He prooueth our Bishops to be petty Popes and vsurpers you denie it not And therefore you onely addresse your selfe to shew what a rebellious and absurd conclusion hee hath made by the like kinde of reasoning as you suppose And where his minor truly assumeth our bishoppes to be vsurpers and petty Popes you falsely and standerously charge her Maiestie to bee an vsurper and a petty Pope Wee are not so hastie to shead bloud as you are otherwise this your vndutifulnes is so heinous that I could easily shewe that there were no other waye of desence for you but in the acknowledgement of your rash boldnes to giue your doings no worse tearmes to flie vnto her Maiesties clemency TOVCHING SCOTLAND VVE answere that we desire not the Eldershipp to be planted in the Church of England From the. 72. to the 78. page because Scotland or Geneua enjoyeth the same but in asmuch as Christ Iesus the head king of his church hath commaunded it to bee therein And therefore we admit the gouernment of no church vnder heauen to be the pâ—â—â—â—â—e of that which we desire but only that regiment which is set downe in the word of God the perfection whereof if any Church hath attained vnto wee rejoice with them and desire to be pertakers of so great a blessing in the Lods good time But as for any thing that is amisse if there be ought either in Geneua or Scotlande wee labour no more to haue that established in England then we doe to haue the great abuses that raigned in the Church of Corinth or Galatia to be imitated The slaunder which you haue raised Page 75. both against the Kings Maiesty there in giuing out that he is a deadly enemy vnto the present gouernement established in his kingdome and watcheth but his time to ouer throw it and also against the godly ministers of that realm in making them traitors vnto their soueraign Heaue to be answered by theÌ„selues and I dout not but you wil in time be forced to answere the iniury that you haue offered vnto that godly and noble King oâ— and also vnto the whole Church with in his dominion But let it bee graunted that the true Church gouernours in Scotland behaued themselues rebelliously towards then Prince which yet is most false what is that to the Church gouernment which they enioly Doe you thinke it a good season to say that the Archbishop is a Traitour therefore the Archbishopricke is gilty of Treason You can not deny but Thomas Beckeâ— was a traitor so were diuers others that haue beene Archbishops of Canterbury but I trust you will not therefore attaint the Archbishopricke of treason
latter ages should bee euill spoken of But heere you will saye that wee ground something for the proofe of the Eldershippe vppon the place of Math. 18. Tell the Church c. and that wee bring in the Iewishe Sinagogue for some purpose in this question True it is wee doe so And because you neither knowe as it appeareth what wee inferre nor weare able to aunswere them being made knowen vnto you therefore you did wiselie to set downe in our name your owne absurdities which of themselues with out any confuter desire for shame to be buried vnder the earth That which we affirme is this And we appeale vnto the conscience of the reader whether wee speake the truth or not First we prooue that the offices of Pastors Doctors Elders c. are perpetually to continue in the Church because the Lord hath appointed them to bee members thereof Romans 12.6.7.8 M. Cart 1. reply pag. 140. 141. Counterpoison Answere to Briges slanders And because Saint Paule writing vnto Timothie maketh the retaining of them in the Churche of Christ not arbitrarie matters left to the discretion of the Church but a commaundement which is to bee kept inuiolable vntill the appearing of the Lord Iesus Secondly we affirme that our Sauiour Christ did establishe Mathew 18. these wordes Tell the Church this Gouernment of his house by the offices of Pastors Doctors and Elders In that he commaundeth vs when a brother doth not profite by the degrees of priuate admonition which hee there mencioneth that wee should acquaint the Church with his offende Tell the Church saith hee By the Church in this place wee say that either the whole multitude must bee ment or some one man as the Bishoppe Chauncellour c. or els the Elders ioyned together with the Pastour and Doctrour if there bee any Nowe you will not say that a man should goe and seeke remedie at the whole multitude when his brother offendeth him On the other-side if you say that by the Church in this place is ment some one man in the Church and so goe tell the Church should bee The phrase of speach also that on man should be taken for the Church is vnwarrantable goe tell one man in the Church as the Bishoppe or Chauncellour The exposition is diuers vvaies prooued to bee false Because the degrees of proceedings which our Sauiour Christ setteth downe dooth ouerthrow it For wee are commaunded from a priuate reproofe of our brother between vs and him to rise vnto an admonition before one or two witnesses and so from two or three not to come backe again to make his fault known before one witnesse as the Bishop or Chauncelour but before many vz. the Church gouernors as before is set downe And in this speeche tell the assemblie of Church wee say that our sauiour Christ pointing out by the spirit of prophesie the gouernement of the eldership vnder the gospell doth allude vnto the forme of the Iews gouernment in their Sinagogues vnto whom whosoeuer gaue not eare was accounted as an heathen or a publicane This M. Bancroft is the sum of that which wee affirme out of Math. 18. when you can bring any thing against this exposition of the place you shall be answered by the assistance of God And it shall appeare whensoeuer you or yours dare abide the publike triall of your cause that there are not onely many that affirme this but also many that wil proue this to bee most true In the meane time wee refer the matter vnto the conscience of the reader whether you and your vpholders in expounding tell the church to be complaine to the Bishop or chancelour that is tell one man in the Church or wee which interprete the same to bee tell the gouernors of the Church to wit the Pastor Doctor and Elders ioyned together beeing not one but many doe peruert the meaning of the scripture and as his iudgement in these things shall be conuinced so let him account of you and vs accordingly D. BANCROFT page 9. They had say these men in their sinagogues the ◠priests we must haue in euery parish our pastors they their Leuite we our Doctors they their rulers of their sinagogues we our Elders they their leuittical treasurers we our Deacons ANSVVERE And what can you say against this saying of theirs if it be false why doe you not confute it your abilitie indeed to disprooue the afternoon you shewe in that you leaue it as you found it And that the reader may perceiue what madnes it were for you to go about to weaken any part heereof I will brieflie note out the places wherein these offices are mencioned both in the olde and new testament First then for the offices of Priestes and Leuites Numb 16 9.10 and Deut. 33.9.10 and there you shall see the Priests and Leuites so distinguished as although they were both of them to teach Iaacob the iudgements and Israell the lawe yet was the Prieste alone to put incense before the face of the Lord Now vnder the new Testament answerable vnto the Prieste and Leuite there is the Pastor and the Doctor Ephe. 4 11.12 and both of them appointed for the gathering together of the Saintes by the worke of the ministerie yet both of them distinguished in their speciall subiects The one of them to attend a Rom. 12.7.8 vpon the gift of teaching the other vpon exhortation the one of thē to be in an especiall fort b 1. Cor. 12.8 indued with the word of knowledge the other with the word of wisedome Concerning those who in the new c Acts 12.15 c 18.8 testament are called the rulers of the Sinagogue the spirit of God in the old nameth them d 2. Chro. 19. ◠the Princes or the chiefe of the families who although they were not of the tribe of Leui yet were they appointed for the cause and iudgements of the Lorde as well as the Priestes and Leuites themselues In like manner 2. Tim. 5.17 Rom. 12.8 Act. 20.28 1. Cor. 12.28 there are Elders in the newe Testament bearing a distinct office from the Pastor and the doctor and yet appointed to rule ouersee the house of God by vertue of their owne proper function Lastly as vnder the lawe wee finde Church treasures vnto whose custody 1. Chro. 26.20 28 2. Chro. 31.13.15 the dedicate thinges belonging to the sacrifices and the maintenaunce of the Leuites were committed So in the kingdome of Christ vnder the newe couenaunt are Deacons appointed Act. 6.2.3 Rom. 12 8.9 1. Tim. 3.6 whose office is neither to medle with the word and Sacraments nor yet with the gouernment of the house of God but onely to attend vppon the goods of the Church and the right distribution of them to the vse of the poore c. I omit heere that as the Gebonites and the Nethinimes were imployed about the inferior and baser offices of the temple and tabernacle so the holy ghost
them that are sanctified And indeed we hold it is to bee feared of all those who refuse to stoope vnto the Lord in this point of their obedience that they haue not as yet felt a right what true religion meaneth Therefore we warne them to enter into their own soules and examine what true sence they haue of the glory of God and his fauour towardes them And as for the most of them that are enemies vnto this gouernment of Christ Iesus it were to be wished both in regard of the Church and common wealth that their very liues and conuersations did not shew them to be either meere Atheistes or carnall and prophane men that onely content themselues to haue godlinesse in their monthes though their hearts haue denied the power thereof and are so farre from the true feeling of Christian religion as D. Bancroft is from true and vpright dealing who saith that we account all those amongst whom this Ecclesiasticall Sinode as he calleth it is not erected to say of our sauiour Christ we wil not haue this man to raigne ouer vs. The which speech how vntrue it is may appeare by that which is alreadie spoken As for the conclusion which in the latter ende of this page hee alledgeth out of the Demonstration of Discipline I wish with all my heart if it please the Lord that neither hee nor any other enemies of the cause may feele the waight thereof Whereas in this place page 9. line 26. you would seeme to make the Demonstration of discipline to be the fountain whence you haue deriued the most of the thinges hitherto discussed the reader is to make no other account of that speech of yours then to marke it vppe vpon the score of your vntruthes for you shall find no such matter in that booke D. BANCROFT page 10. sect 2. 3. There was neuer ancient father as I thinke since the Apostles time that did thus expound the place Mat. 18. Besides there hath bin a diuers gouernement from this vsed in the Church euer since the Apostles time and these men doe confesse that this gouernment long before the counsel of Nice began greatly to decay and that since the sayd counsel T. C. it was neuer heard of in the world vntil these their times ANSVVERE They must needs be childish and absurd fathers that should expounde the place according vnto your interpretation The reader hath seene that you haue alleadged your owne comment and not ours Neither do we runne vnto fathers when we would try the truth but vnto the scriptures themselues And yet wee thankefully acknoweledg the helpes which their labours haue affoarded vnto vs but so as wee held it a maine point of popery to holde that a place is not well interpreted because no such exposition can be founde in the writings of the ancients Besides we account your brest for no librarie wherein al the interpretations of the fathers vppon this place may be sene Chrisostom if that were any thinge vnto the truth doth expound tel the church to be Chrisost vpon Math. tel the gouernors of the Church which comprehendeth in a manner al that wee affirme We know Diâ—â—rephes to haue bin in the church euen in the Apostles times 3. Iohn 9. and wee are assured he could neuer be gotten out of it since the first hower that he set footing therein And therefore we cannot greatly maruel though euen in their time there had bin a diuers gouernment from this of the lords appointment which we labour for For euen in the Apostles time the mistery of iniquitie beganne to worke But for al this 2. Thes 2.7 wee would haue you prooue your bolde assertion that euer since the Apostles time there hath bin a diuers gouernment from this and when you haue done you must vnderstande that the question betweene vs is not so much de facto as de jure not so much whether there was a diuers gouernment c. as whether that diuers gouernement was lawfull or not We must needs confesse indeed that not onelie this gouernement of the Church but also many other points of greatest waight in religion fell to decay long before the counsell of Nice But that M. Carthwright or any man els of iudgement hath affirmed that this gouernement was neuer heard of since the sayde counsell vntill these our times it is an impudent vntruth You quote T. C. on the margent but neither name the page nor the booke where hee should affirme this which you woulde seeme to publish vnder his name The reader is to marke this is an other of shifte which is so much the more shamles as you ground your next speech vppon it as vpon a matter graunted you without any further question D. BANCROFT page 10. 11. A very strange matter if it were true that Christ should erect a forme of gouernment to continue vntil his comming and that the same should neuer be once put in practise for the space of 1500. yeares or at the least to take them at their best that the gouernment kingdome of Christ should then be ouerthrowne when the diuinity of his person the honour of his kingly authors c. was established at the counsel of Nice ANSVVERE Let the reader marke this for another of your shifts And is it not also a strange case that you wil erect a building of your owne stuffe and workmanship and then cal your auditors to gaze and wonder at the absurd deformitie of it Why there are non but your selfe and such as you are that affirme this gouernement to haue wanted execution for the space of 1500. yeares Neither doe we holde or thinke the gouernement and kingdome of Christ to be ouerthrowne at the time of the counsel of Nice And you haue in this point giuen your selfe the shamfull lye in the 100. page of your Sermon where you alleadge that M. Cartwright doth affirme this eldership to haue bene most flourishing vnder Constantine the Emperour by whome the Nicene councell was called I referre the reader vnto the place and wish you though you cannot be gotten to leaue forging of vntruthes against vs yet for your owne credit sake not to forget the chiefe maâ—ime of your profession which is that it behooueth a lying tong to be joyned with a good memorie We doe not say that the gouernment and kingdome of Christ is wholly ouerthrowne where the Eldership is wanting and therfore your speech tending that way doth rather point out the essentiall all qualitie of your nature then any conclusion of ours And admit it were true that the Eldership lay in the dust at the time of the Nicen counsel and was neuer heard of in Christendoome from that hower vntill this latter age Will you conclude thereof that therefore it is not nowe to bee receiued that is Poperie For the holy men there met togeather suffered many other substantiall and most necessarie points of doctrine to be buried as they had bene
and especially this of the aequallitie betweene a minister and a Bishop the spirit of god giueth him a plaine discharge from all suspicion either of heresie or yet of error For the word of God teacheth vs that to bee a teaching Elder which you retaining your popish custome call a Priest is nothing els but Episcopein 1. Pet 5.1.3 that is to be a Bishoppe or an ouerseer And Christ Iesus forbiddeth his Ministers to haue any superiority one ouer another Now when Pighius D. Bancroft Luk. 22.25 or any other Romane Papist or Protestant shall be able to aunswere these and the like reasons they may then haue good leaue with open mouth to cry out vpon Aerius for his heresie Otherwise in condemning that sentence whose premises they are not able to infringe they doe nothing els but deny the conclusion which in this and many other pointes is Master Bancrofts fashion of dispute For what els doth he in alleadging that men haue condemned Aerius for an heretike whereas neither he nor they can answer the reasons whereupon Aerius his conclusion is grounded And if Aerius his opinion was no other then that the worde of god made no difference betweene a Bishop and a minister as master Doctor here setteth downe I cannot thinke but vppon better aduisement he wil be concent to reuoke the rash sentence which he hath pronounced against him lest thereby he doe not only strike at Ierome but euen at the Archbishop M. Bancroft is so hasty to wound his aduersaries as he also striketh himselfe and his friends and al others that are of his side in England at this day For Master Bancroft I thinke wil not say that a Bishop is superiour vnto aminister by the worde of god then howe wil he answere Ierome in the places quoted by him selfe page the 14. who sayth that in the Apostles time Ierom. ad Euagri there was noe such difference betweene them and that this prerogatiue that one minister should be aboue a nother is grounded vpon humane custome not vppon the ordinance of God And after this sorte doe our Bishops account of the present Church gouernement which they holde vnchangeable onely as long as it shall please her maiestie and the state If M. Bancroft be of an other judgement we say that he condemneth not Aerius aloane but euen Ierome and our Bishops for obstinate hereticks we craue his answere vnto the place of Ierome Nowe if hee be of Ieromes minde I would gladly learne of him and Epiphanius where they learned to condemne men of heresie for gainsaying such things in religion as haue no other original and ground then the constitutions of men For if it was not an heresie in the Apostles time as Ierome telleth vs it was none to holde a minister and a Bishop to be of aequal authority it can be non at this hower neither coulde it beat any time since the age wherein they liued For noe man can be nowe accounted an hereticke for defending that which had been sound and Catholique doctrine in the Apostles time Now that either we or Aerius should conclude the aequallitie of ministers because the Apostle writeth sometimes vnto Priests and Deacons sometimes vnto Bishops and Deacons For mine owne part I neuer heard of the reason before The reader is to make no other account of it but as a testimony of Maister Chaplaines acquaintaunce with our arguments And I beleeue it I should aske either him or Aerius where they finde that the Apostle hath written vnto Priestes any otherwise then they are contained vnder the name Bishops and Deacons I should put them both to their shifts Where he saith that Aerius was condemned for an heretike by the consent of the whole Church after due triall and examination of his arguments by the learned fathers then liuing it is as impudent an assertion as euer he vttered And I maruell that hee blusheth not to publish such windy stuffe vnto the view of the world in this learned age Indeede if Aerius had no other reasons then that which wee haue already heard the learned fathers of his time were verie simple that would stand in the triall and examination of so groundlesse a supposition I am sorie to heare you so farre gone in the heat of your impatiency as you should denie the superioritie of Ministers to haue beene againe-sayde and their Gouernement accounted Antichristian by anye since the time of Aerius saue onely by heretikes and such lend persons Do you account the Waldenses to be heretikes Do you account M. Wickliffe And I pray you what account you of the reformed churches M. Iohn Husse and M. Tindale to be heretikes or lend persons The godly haue them in other maner of estimation And yet M. Carthwright and others haue long since proued these men to be vnreconcilable aduersaries vnto the hierarchie and shewed that they beganne no sooner to stand against the Pope but they also encountred with the Bishops whose callings that they doe belong vnto the Antichristian kingdome is manifested by this reason whereunto if you will maintaine the credit of your masters I would wish you to answere Those offices and callings are Antichristian with out which all forme of Gouernements are perfect saue onely the gouernment of the kingdome of Antichrist which in no wise can want them But such are the callings of Lord Archb. and Bb. as all forme of gouernements may be perfect without them saue onely the Antichristian kingdome where in no case they can bee missed For the Gouernment both of the Church and common welth can well spare them and bee neuer a whit the more vnperfect Therefore the callinges of Archb. and Bishops do only belong vnto the kingdom of Antichrist If you do reply M. Bancroft that the most learned and the most zealous of the fathers especially in these latter times haue taken vpon them the callings of Bishops and Archbishops you do therby nothing els but offer to produce your witnesses to sweare that the conclusion is not true And therfore as I haue said so I admonish you again not to trouble yourselfe in so gainelesse a labour But if you will stand our Bishops in any stead deale against either the proposition or assumption otherwise the burthen of the conclusion will lie vpon them whether they will or no. Your distinction of the cleargy and layity factions To the 24.25.26.27 pages we acknowledge not For wee maintaine neyther factions nor scismes If there bee any Courtiers or great men that desire to be inriched with the patrimonie of the Church wee wishe them better mindes and pray that they may bee disapointed of their expectation Yet we see no more reason why our Bishops and Chaplaines should liue vpon the spoile and robbery of soules then Noble men and Gentlemen should bee maintained by sacriledge For we holde that both sorts in so doing do bring the price of bloud into their houses But it is most intollerable
Bishop of Constantinople Theod. lib. 5. cap. 8. Where all these Bb. could bee gotten if Bb. and Ministers were not all one let M. Bancroft shew Lastly it would be knowne what account M. Bancroft maketh of that notable martyr M. Tindale M. Tindales works pag. 251. b. which speaking of priests and Bb. hath these words ther is presbyteros which same is saith he Acts. 20.28 imediatly after called a Bishop and in the same place all that were Elders or priests if they so will were called Bishops also though they haue deuided the name now I hope he will not answere him as hee doth Aerius that this opinion was condemned for an heresie long ago and none but heretikes and such leud persons euer since that time held it One thing I doe not a litle maruel at both in M. Bancroft and all the rest of his coat why they rather ioyne with Sir Thomas Moore and the papistes M. Tindals answer to Moore page 251. in calling the Ministers of the word priestes then with M. Tindale and the most sincere professours in the world at this day in abrogating that popishe name and vsing the worde Minister or Elder in the steade thereof Admon pa. 44. The B. of Winchester sayth that the Archbishop hath shewed sufficient reasons against T. C. why the Ministers of the gospell should bee called priests and all of them are of the same opinion and will not take it patiently if they be gainsaid in it but what account is to be made of them for this labor 〈…〉 shal learne out of M. Tindale page 14. 4. who in his obedience of a Christian man sayth that the worde Sacerdos should haue had another name in english then priest but that Antichrist hath deceiued vs with vnknowne and strange termes to bring vs into superstitious blindnes as for the word presbyteros saith he both in this place and against Moore in the place aboue cited it ought in English to bee translated Elder This I thought good to admonish the reader least hee should thinke mee in vsing the woorde priest to allowe of that Antichristian name Whether M. Cartwright hath truly alleadged Ignatius and others To the 98. pag. to prooue the vse and practise of the office of Elders in the Church long after the Apostles time because there is nothing but the pawn of M. Bancrofts credite brought to the contrary I referre the reader to examine the testimonies vsed by M. Cartwright for that purpose T. C. 1. reply 145. Especially the place of Ierome vpon Isaiah who saith that they had also the presbitery or eldership in the church and that of Ambrose vpon the 1. Tim. cap. 5. where he complaineth that through the pride slouthfulnes of the Doctors the Elders were worn out of the Church were it not that M. Chaplain carrieth his license in his bosome to speake what hee will I should wonder that he durst in open pulpit and writing deny elders to be in the church long after the Apostles time seeing D. Whitgift telleth vs of his owne knowledge that in the Primitiue Churche they had in euerie church certaine seniors to whome the gouernment of the congregation was committed Whit. pag. 638. M. Bancroft seeth there is no aduantage in granting any part of the truth and therefore hee taketh a round course to deny euery thing without more a doo Take his aduantage thereof who list His profanenes Page 98. in calling the Elders Aldermen the Lord I feare will reuenge who cannot abide to haue the officers of his kingdome derided and scoffed at by any Lucian whosoeuer Your caueling with the proofes To the 100.111 brought in by M. Cartwright to shew the Eldershippe to be most flowrishing in Constantines time iâ— a proofe that you retaine your vsuall boldnesse in out facing the truth If it bee not a good reason to say that because there were infinite numbers of Bishops and Elders at the councel of Nice therefore the Eldership was in a flowrishing estate at that time to what purpose should they be present in that synod if they had nothing to do with the gouernement of the church If they had to do with the gouernment of the church the reason holdeth most forcible to prooue the Eldership to be vp vnder Constantine For wheresoeuer there is a Church gouernement by Bishops and Elders there the Eldership is in force Though wee should graunt Page 101. that you deale truly with Eusebius yet his testimony is not a whit the weaker to proue the gouernment by the Eldership because he meaneth nothing els but to shew the great appearaunce from all places of the Cleargie men of all sortes in that assemblie Eor beit that his onely purpose was to shewe this great concourse of Cleargy men yet that hindereth not but hee speaking of Bishops and elders met at the said Synod we may thence gather Bishops and Elders did gouerne the church at that that time That Bishoppes had large jurisdiction before the Nicene councel is onely affirmed M Cart. 2. reply pag. 557.560 c. and not prooued by you M. Bancroft the contrary hath bene shewed It is your manner to build vpon false grounds which haue beene long since ouerthrone The appointing of Metropolitans or confirming whether you will at the councell of Nice hindered not the gouernement of the Eldership to be in force They had not such an vnruly jurisdiction as the Archbishops doe vsurpe The fifth Canon of the councell whereby it is decreed that the disorders of the church should bee compounded at the prouinciall assemblies not by that Metropolitans shew what smal authority they had They had but their owne suffrages as euery other minister had That which the councell of Nice attributed vnto them was no more then chiefe place in the meetinges Ibid. pag. 562. Aunswere that which M. Cartwright hath written in this question and then set downe your bolde conclusion otherwise the reader will deride your boldnes in pitching a campe of torne assertions whereof not one will be granted vnto you Faine would you I see haue the people not to giue eare vnto vs To the 103 104. page and to that purpose you bring vp to them the reasons that al Atheists haue for them selues whie they wil not embrace the true religion And that is because the professors thereof cannot agree among them selues The godly are not ignorant that there must bee scismes in the Church of God and therefore cannot stumble at the diuisions among vs â—â—i if they bee any Wee haue learned of the blessed Apostle to bee so farre from agreeing with any saue only in the truth as we hold our selues bound to bid battel vnto at the Angels iâ— heauen if they stand against the same Our breaches would bee easily made vp Pag if you woulde yeald the Church her right As for your side it is wel knowne howe little you agree saue only in the mayne drift whereat you must al shoot or els you shal soone fal to the ground And that is in standing against the truth Tot 111. maintaining outragious coruptions I haue alredy noted that you in this short inuectiue against vs haue twise scratched the Archbishop by the face and that in matters of waight The 3. last pages of his Sermon contain nothing in them but generall exhortations that the people would cleaue vnto the truth without wauering the which wee earnestly entreat all men to doe as they would bee saued in the day of the Lorde And from our hearts we wish if it be the Lords will both vnto them and to all our aduersaries and perticularlie vnto M. Bancroft that immortall crowne of glorie whereof he speaketh in the last page desiring them and him notwithstanding to call to minde that neither lyers Page 1 nor those that delight in lies especially against gods truth and his church shall euer be partakers thereof