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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A53346	Amsterdam: toleration, or no toleration in a discourse between conformists, non-conformists, papists, Anabaptists, Quakers, &c. In their own words, before a gracious king, about the extent of a Christian indulgence to all dissenters. By J.V.C.O. A friend to men of all religions.	J. V. C. O.	1663 (1663)	Wing O2A; ESTC R207624	19,722	59

AMSTERDAM Toleration or no Toleration In a DISCOURSE BETWEEN CONFORMISTS NON-CONFORMISTS PAPISTS ANABAPTISTS QUAKERS c. In their own Words before a Gracious King about the extent of a Christian Indulgence to all Dissenters By J. V. C. O. A Friend to Men of all Religions Rom. 4.19 Let us follow the things that make for peace LONDON Printed in the year MDCLXIII TO All that are SPIRITED FOR An Universal Accommodation THat good people may know what Indulgence they are to look for here is the Judgement of the ablest of all Professions in ther own words concerning as much Favour as can be allowed men of different Perswasions Here you see what wise men have thought about Toleration here you see what wise men may look for and withal what all Parties will be contented with in order to that Peace and Settlement that may bless us and our Posterity AMSTERDAM Toleration or no Toleration King I Have sent for you my loving Subjects of all Professions to bear witness to the tenderness and compassion I have for all my good People of different Perswasions who live soberly and peaceably according to their several Apprehensions and to the care I have taken to compose Differences and Offences that I have found in this Kingdom by Impartiality or at least to allay mens Heats and Animosities so far as that notwithstanding their several Perswasions they might cement in a common Peace so much conducing to the happiness and welfare of this Nation Really the satisfaction of all sober men in the matter of Religion hath layn so much upon my Spirit that I have spared no time refused no pains to take in the Advice and Apprehensions of the most knowing in all Ways whereby a course might have been taken that would oblige all persons to joyn in a chearful Obedience to our Government and in an universal Endeavour for common Good It 's not unknown to the world with what patience I have heard the sentiments of all Parties since I came to England I have offered all that in Reason Honour and Conscience I can reserving onely what I cannot consent unto without an irrepairable injury to my own Soul the Church and my People And at last I put all difference in Church-Affairs and Religion to the free Consultation of a Convocation legally chosen the Results of whose Counsels as they include the Votes of all so I hoped they would have given satisfaction unto all What would you have me do more then I have done Chancellour Gentlemen the distempers of Religion which have too much disturbed the peace of this Kingdom is a sad Argument indeed it is a Consideration that would make every religious heart to bleed to see Religion which should be the strongest Obligation and cement of Affection and brotherly Love Kindness and Compassion made now by the perverseness of passionate and froward men the ground of all Animosity Hatred and Malice It was not so of old when one of the most ancient Fathers of the Church tells us That Love and Charity was so signal and eminent in the Primitive Christians that it even drew Admiration and Envy from their greatest Adversaries Vide inquiunt ut invicem se diligunt How would they look upon our sharp and virulent Contentions in the Debates of Christian Religion and the bloody Wars that have proceeded from those Contentions whilst every one pretended to all the marks which are to attend upon the true Church except onely that which is inseparable from it Charity to one another Really this Disquisition hath cost the King many a sigh many a sad hour when he hath considered the most irrepairable reproach the Protestant Religion hath undergone from the Divisions and Distractions which have been so notorious in this Kingdom What pains he hath taken to compose them after several Discourses with learned and pious Men of several Perswasions you may see by a Declaration he hath published upon that occasion by which you see his willingness to indulge all tender Consciences as far as lieth in his power We all hope that God will so bless the candour of his Majesty in the condescention he makes that all good people will return to that Unity and Unanimity which will make both King and People as happy as they can be in this world King That you may see that I am not guided by any single mans counsel fidelity and discretion in the management of the great matters of Religion and that I comply not in my Government with particular mens passions humours and private opinions I here meet you whom I look upon as the most knowing sober and moderate of the several Professions under my Government by whose discretion I hope I may be advised so as that I may be able to give all just satisfaction to all sober desires and allay and fix my good People to a due temperament to their own just content and mine Politician May it please your Majesty to reduce the various disagreeing Parties within this Kingdom which seem to render it an indigested mass of people to such a temperature as may compose all Affairs both Religious and Civil within your Majesties Dominions There are but three ways imaginable The first way is to raise one Party by the fall and ruine of all other Parties which if possible cannot be accomplished but by violent ways and means The second way is to think of such an Accommodation as by the mutual yeilding of the several Parties former differences may be abolished and all reconcilable Professors may be reconciled and such a comprehensive Coalition of all Interests be endeavoured as may take in and carry along the whole stream and strength of the three Kingdoms The third way is to indulge a Toleration to the weaker side whose strength a Charitable Connivence and Christian Indulgence may weaken when as a tougher Opposition may fortifie it a severe Imposition putting the despised and oppressed Party into such Combinations as may most enable them to get a full Revenge on those they count their Persecutors they being commonly assisted and encouraged with that vulgar pity and compassion which is allowed all that are said to suffer for their Conscience and Religion A course very agreeable in my opinion to that exact Policy which supports the most flourishing Kingdom of France c. and States of Holland in an admired Grandeur made up of Peace Plenty and Prosperity which we envy but cannot attain to King I must needs interrupt you and though I approve the faithfulness I cannot allow the prudence of your advice for you must all know that I am perswaded that in matter of Religion we must follow not so much what is most prudent as what is most pious not onely what is expedient but what is lawful not what seems best in reason of State but what seems best in the counsel of God and therefore before you proceed I must let you know that you must not insist on forraign Policies and Prosperity in this

errours you may if you will discountenance our truths Papists It 's true some practices against the State deserved this severity formerly but our peaceable behaviour may deserve an indulgence now Protestants Your behaviour may deserve an indulgence but not your principles you are so tied to the Supremacy at Rome that you cannot be true if you will be true to your own Profession to our Government Papists The Hugonots have an indulgence in France Protestants They have no more then they fought for though they have more then as appears by your several attempts to undermine their liberties you are willing they should have Papists It were no harm to indulge us if your Religion were true your truth would triumph over our falshood Protestants No people ever suffered an Enemy to settle in their Country that they might triumph over them An ill-affected person They have already what amounts to a toleration Protestants No the King indeed doth not force them to come over to our Religion because he thinks Religion must be perswaded and not forced yet he doth not allow the practice of their Religion he doth not compel them to come to us and he doth not suffer us to be seduced to come over to them The Indifferent Alas the Popish Religion is so ridiculous that to tolerate it publickly were to expose it Protestants Alas what is ridiculous to the wise is very pleasing to the vulgar who are the most part of mankinde and where they have one Proselyte to their Devotion they have ten to their pomp glory Papists The more danger of our Priests the more care should be taken by your Ministers Protestants But we must not let in the Wolves that the Shepherd may be careful Papists May it please your Majesty that we may live peaceably as your other Subjects and not be compelled to your profession though we enjoy not the liberty of our own King In the multitude of Counsellours there is safety We shall advise with our Nobility Clergy and Commons what may be done in your favour for to deal truely with you it is not my intention to exclude you from all share in the benefit of such an Act as the wisdome of our Parliament shall think fit to offer unto us for the ease of tender consciences VVe intend to abate the rigour of some Laws as not being able to endure that any of our Subjects should be put to death for their opinions in matter of Religion onely and indeed as we cannot in conscience own or indulge your way so we shall not punish your dissent from us any otherwise then with some marks of our displeasure for not closing with the established Religion Papists So pray God bless your Majesty Ill-affected persons If Popery be naught why are Papists suffered if not why are they punished Honest Protestants Though his Majesty suffers Papists as his liege people yet he suffers not Popery and yet he suffers not Papists without some marks of his displeasure Whisperer Why doth the King punish men for what is their conscience The Loyal He punisheth them not for their consciences which he knows not but for their outward actions which he knows he measureth their practice by the Law by which he is to judge and govern he referreth their consciences to God Non-conformists We humbly beseech your most excellent Majesty to allow us to enjoy our consciences and judgements in serving our God State We could grant your liberty as to your own practice but we must deny you the liberty of seducing others I will not punish you for being misled into errour but I must restrain you from spreading your errours I shall wink at your weakness but I shall punish wilfulness Their followers May our eyes but see our Teachers and we enjoy their faithful Labours Ch. Though his Majesty hath compassion on this seduced Age he intends not that the next Age should be seduced too Do you think in your Conscience that his Majesty may suffer that to be taught which he thinks is an errour E. Man How shall the poor men live L. P. No Church or State must allow maintenance to such persons as oppose the Order and Government of that Church or State P. M. Alas that such eminent men should be laid aside for indifferent things E. B. They are not laid aside for indifferent things but for that great fault of disobeying Authority which enjoyns those indifferent things The things commanded are indifferent Obedience to the Command about things indifferent is necessary what cloaths I wear what gestures I use is indifferent that I wear such cloaths and use such gestures as are commanded is necessary Non-conformists May it please your Majesty that we have liberty to joyn with our people in pure Worship and Ordinances giving good security that we neither speak nor do any thing publickly against the established order of the Kingdom S. O. As for those of you who living peaceably cannot conform through scruple and tenderness of misguided Conscience care may be taken that they modestly and without scandal perform their own devotion in their own way Anabaptists We are under a scandal of disobedience to Governours and turbulency but as we resolve in the fear of God to submit to your Government as far as lawfully we may so we desire your favour and indulgence Conformists and Non-conformists Your Principles have been so dangerous your practice so infamous here and in Germany your judgement and practice being so void of meekness modesty charity humanity and innocency that your errour is not thought venial nor your difference tolerable as arising by degrees to tumults seditions and contempt of all Christian Magistrates and Ministers King Nay but I hope there are some of my subjects of that Way who have sincerity to God-ward and charity to those Christians who in this differ from them for whom as long as they behave themselves soberly I have an equal kindness with the rest of my subjects without any respect of persons Quakers O King live for ever We do in love advise thee to remove the yoke from the servants of the Lord who desire nothing but to walk humbly with him and to tremble at his Word P. O. If you can agree upon a way to serve God and offer it to the State you may have protection from the King as far as your way is judged agreeable to truth as yet the world hath not seen what you desire and so know not what to grant you Seekers We desire to try all things and to hold fast that which is good and that nothing be imposed upon us Orthodox Nevertheless whereunto we have already attained let us walk by the same Rule let us minde the same things if in any thing ye be otherwise minded God shall reveal even this unto you Fifth Monarchy-men Why do you wait here on men while you should pray unto the Lord that he would hasten his Kingdome that the Saints may inherit the earth Orthodox We wait upon men

would have me countenance which I may advise upon and try according to the great Rule of Scripture and universal profession All. VVe desire some time to debate our several differences and to think upon such happy expedients as may be for general satisfaction L. C. Supreame Magistrate is willing that you who are of a loose wayes of Fanulisme Rantisme Adamites Cathoriss c. should bring a plat forme of your opinions to the Quakers whom he impowers to reject what they think fit and to offer what they approve of together with their own way to the fift Monarchy men who have the like liberty to suppresse what they think fit and to offer what they allow of together with their own Faith to the moderate Anabaptists who hath the like power to reforme what he thinks amisse and to propose what he assent to the Independent who may rectifie what is amisse and carry what he allowes of with his own judgement to the Presbyterian who may bring what he finds agreed upon by others with his own confession of Faith to Supream Authority who may very well take equal liberty to judge of their way as they have to judge of others L. B. Indeed that was Cardinal Richlieus way K. In short before you go how far will you of the Independant Anabaptists way c. allow that way we call Presbyterian Fan. Not at all for we look upon it as the great Tyranny that we can be subject to their fingers are heavier then the Bishops Loyns Anabaptist 1. Edw Gang p 54. We hope to see Heaven and Earth on fire before Presbyters be setled 2 We hope to see Presbyters as much troden under feet as the Bishops were Gans P. 73. 3 The Presbyterian Government is Anti-christian a limb of Anti-christ Tyrannicall Lordly cruell a bondage under Taske-masters as the Israelites in Aegypt ibid 221. K. Forbear your passion I hope that upon a mutuall correspondence you will grow to a better temper Mr. Sterry The seed of God in this Nation hath had two capitall enemies the Romish Papacy and the Scots Presbytery L. Ch. I pray do you of the Presbyterian Perswasion satisfie his Majesty how far the Independents and those who are called Sectaries may be tolerated Sion house Ministers The toleration of these men hath not been established in any Christian State by the Civil Majestrate and if one way should be tolerated then all wayes must be tolerated and such a toleration is utterly repugnant and it consistent with the Solemn League and Covenant for Reformation K. I pray let me hear what my good Subjects of Scotland think of a Toleration Mr. Bayly Liberty of conscience Disswasive from the Errors of times Ep ded or toleration of all or any Religion is so prodigious an impiety that this religious Parliament cannot but abhor the very naming of it Mr. Ruth In thee England in thee London in thee associated Counties in thee Armies and that after a Solemn Covenant to extirpate Heresies and Schisme are there found such errors such opinions such strange practices such liberty K. If after you have all met with freedome offer your several thoughts with modesty debate your differences with reason and manage your controversies with moderation in the feare of God and love of truth so as becomes men of learning gravity and good conscience in so grand concernments as import the peace of the Church the satisfaction and salvation of Mens soules you should return condemning each other and you would not allow them their way and they will not allow you yours what would you have me doe when you condemn the Independant Anabaptist as Sectaries and they you as Antichristian what shall I doe but have an eye upon the warrant of holy writ the primitive institutions and practises the universall way of ordering externalls in Religion The establishment of particulars here by the consent of the people The regular injunction of lawfull Authority and if you in your own consciences shall not think one another tolerable And I in my conscience cannot allow you I must leave you to the conscience of the whole Kingdome in Parliament to whose grand establishment I hope you will submit In the meane time if you can agree upon a modest offer for a general accomodation comprehensive of all sober parties It shall be very acceptable to Me and with all advantage offered to the Parliament L. Ch. But if any of you in the mean time by Pride or Faction Schisme or Ambition novel fancies or arrogance or ignorance or sedition or popularity or vain glory or envy or discontent or correspondence shall cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine we have received troubling themselves and others with ungrounded scruples uncharitable prejudices and unquiet singularities I shall need love him with no other guilt then the Apostle doth that he is not the servant of Christ for how can he who is without peace and love serve that God who is the God of love whose Law is love L. B. ch You see his Majesty's gracious inclinations to all lawfull condescention compliance and forbearance in the meane time it may be expected that you prudently suspendent your practices against the established Law as wise men that can discerne time and judgement If meate saith the Apostle make my brother offend I I for I lay no other burden upon you then I would bear my self who know and am perswaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is uncleane in its self yet I will abstaine not only from flesh offered to Idols but from all flesh and that not a little while while the world stands if it prove but a bare scandall or offence justly or unjustly not for any by-end but least my brother should offend at me for I would say I will never meet privately never forsake the assemblying my selfe with good men never refuse innocent things to offend a whole Church yea a whole Kingdome The reconciling of the real interests of Episcopacy Presbytery and Independency Bp. Gauden In order to that happy accommodation which you are advised to you are all to know that how ever in lesser things you differ one from another yet you seem to agree as in the Canon of the Scripture so in the soundnesse of Faith the holynesse of divine Mysteries in the celebration of them by such as are some way ordained for that holy service also in the participation of them by such only as are in the judgement of charity worthy or meet to be partakers of them all agree in the main Christ in graces virtues and morally required in a good Christian go along with us in these maine things which are necessary rational wise and truly religious which we aime at designe endeavour and are principled for goe along with us in sound and diligent preaching spiritual and discreet praying in holy and solemne communions the serious dispensation of ministerial power and usefull execution of Church Discipline which are the substance of Religion and for some Ceremonies I shall entreat you to see how far they are lawfull and what you really think not forbid in the Scripture you would submite in obedience to Authority and if you really think between God and your own soules that some circumstances enjoyned are unlawfull as they that use them shall not despise you that cannot use them so you that use them nor must judge them that use them good people let us meet together in Gods worship which we all own to some Rites or gestures let every one be fully perswaded in his own mind FINIS