which reason men might set vp as truely the whole law as some parte and vtterly abolish Christ I pray you seriously consider what is here said A. Hath not the King the same â—ovver that the Kings of Israel had who coÌ„pelled meÌ„ to the observation of the lavv of God C. First I answere you that the kings off Israel had never power from God to set vp any thinge in or for the service of God bur that onely which was comaunded by God Dewt. 4.2 No not so much as the manner of any law Num. 15 16. and 9.14 and therefore this will not serve your purpose that Kings may set vp within their dominions such spirituall lords and lawes for the serveing of God no nor the manner there of as may best please theÌ„selves vnder what pretence soever thereby makeing God for his worship subject to their pleasures And his Ma tie acknowledgeth that Christs Church after the establishing of it by miracles in the primitive time was ever after to be governed within the limits of his revealed will Speach at Parl Anno 1609 Secondly the Kings of Israell might compell men to the sacrifices and ordinances of the old Testament all which were carnall and purged not the conscience Heb. 9.9.10 as circumcision the passover etc But no mortall Man whatsoever he be can compel any maÌ„ to offer the sacrifices of the new Testament which are spiritual and purge the conscience except he can beget faith in him and convert his soule The ordinances of the old Testament were to be performed by the posteritie of Abra. according to the flesh that thereby they might be taught Christ but the ordinaÌ„ces of he new TestameÌ„t are to be performed onely by the posterity of AbrahaÌ„ according to the faith that have learned Christ and have put on Christ and so haveing him all thinges els apperteyneth to them But one thinge I demaunde of you who now is King of Israel A. I confesse Christ is King of Israel C. Yes Christ alone is King of Israell that sits vpoÌ„ Davids throne and therefore mark the true proportion In the time of the old TestameÌ„t the Kings of Israell had power from God to compel all to the ordinances of God or to cut them of by their sword from the earthly Land of Canaan and the promisses thereof So in the new Testament the King of Israel Christ Iesus hath power from the Father to compell all to the ordinances of God or to cut them of by his sword from the Heavenly Land of Canaan and the promisses thereof The Kings of Israel onely had this power vnder the law and the King of Israell onely hath this power vnder the gospell And therefore whosoever will challenge this power vnder the gospel he must be the king of Israel in the time of the gospell which is particulier onely to Iesus Christ vnto whome all power in Heaven and in Earth is given And let it be here well observed that by this opinion of yours you make the Kingdome and ordinances of Israel vnder the Law and the Kingdome and ordinances of Israell vnder the gospell allone directly contrary to the whole Scripture for the Kingdome and ordinances of Israell vnder the lawe were of this world but the Kingdome and ordinances of Israell vnder the gospell are not of this world as Christ the King thereof himself testifieth Iohn 28. And therefore you setting vp a worldly King over this Heavenly Kingdome and ordinances you and all of your profession declare your selves to be of that worldly kingdome and so to looke for that Heavenly and spirituall King yet to come in the flesh being of the number of those that deny him to be come in the flesh anb so are deceivers and Antichrists whatsoever you say to the contrarie A. Well yet I cannot see but that as the Kings of Israel hath power from God to compell all their subjects to the vvorship then appointed so the King being a a ChristiaÌ„ King hath povver to compel his subjects to the vvorship novv appointed C. You may see if you shur not your eies that what power the Kings of Israel had vnder the law in matters of Religion Christ Iesus the King of Israell hath vnder the gospell but I pray you let me aske you this question You say the Kings Ma tie hath this power as he is a Christian King My question is whether it apperteyne vnto him as he is a King or as he is a Christian A. Neither simple as he is a Kinge nor as he is a Christian but jointly as he is compleate in them both for I grant that no heathen Kinge hath power to compell in matters of Religion but a Christian King hath C. Then you confesse that of a ChristiaÌ„ king may be deprived of his Christianitie for of his Kingdome or kingly power or any part thereof I affirme he may not be deprived he hath lost this power you plead for in compelling Men in matters of religion what say you to this A. I confesse if he may be deprived of his Christianitie he hath not this povver I pleade for C. Then I demaund this question whether every ChristiaÌ„ without respect of persons ought not to bee subject to Christs Lawes for his salvation A. Yes it cannot be denyed C. Christ hath given his censure Excomunication for the salvation of every Christian that he that will not heare the Church is to bee as a heathen and a Publicane that is hath lost all right and title in Christ and in his Church till he repent now I knowe it caÌ„no be denyed but every Christian whatsoever is subject to sin and so to excomunication to be as a Heathen etc If you say that Kings either are not subject to sin and to impenitency therein and so to this ceÌ„sure of Christ of excomunication for their impenitent sin then consider what you make them and God you make a lyer If you graut as you cannot deny that Kings aswell as others are subject to impenitent sin and so to excomunication for the same then they being deprived of their Christianity by your owne confession they are deprived of power to compel in matters of Religion the which if it were any part of their Kingly power they might be deprived of a part of their Kingly power by being excomunicate consider what a wicked doctrine you teach herein A. Doth not the Prophet say that Kings shal be nursing Fathers Queenes nursing Mothers to the Church And also it is said that kings shal hate the vvhore make her desolate eate hir flesh burne hir vvith fire VVhere vvee see that kings that have power authoritie shal destroy Antichrists kingdome nurrish cherish Christs kingdome C. Most true it is the lord hath spoken it and therefore it ought to be great comfort to Gods people but what is this to the purpose in hand namely that Kings may persecute the contrary mynded the words of the Prophet Esa proves that Kings aÌ„d
and the Isralites now not of this world Ioh. 15.19 then the king thereof is not of this world as they are not of this world Ioh 17.16 aÌ„d if these spiritual lords coÌ„fesse that Chr king now of the sand aÌ„d people of Israel but yet he hath left our lord the king hâ—s deputy to make such lawes and lords over the church as pleaseth him the word of the lord is against theÌ„ â—ere is but one â—ord 1. Cor. 12.5 one law giver Iam. 4.12 over his Church Nay his Ma himself is against theÌ„ who saith There is no earthly monarch ever the Church whose word must be a law saith further Christ is his Churches monarch the holy ghost his deputy alleging luk 22.25 the kings of the Gentiles beare rule one over another c. but I shal not be so among you saying further Christ then he ascended left not Peter with them to direct theÌ„ in al truth but promissed to send the holy ghost to them for that end c. If any wishe rebellions against the word of the lord herein yet let them not be rebellious against the word of the king Oh that any thinge would prevail with theÌ„ to make them leave of these cruel courses of persecuting poore soules that desire truely to feare God and are most faithful subjects to the king and desire also the salvatioÌ„ of the soules of these their cruel persecutors who do seeke their vtter vndoeing by al the forenamed persecutions onely because they cannot of faith offer vp such worship to God as these spirituall lords comaund and the rather let them leave of persecutinge seeing the kings Ma tie acknowledgeth It is a sure rule in divinitie that God loves not to plant his church by violeÌ„ce bloodshed And if it be a law for al ChristiaÌ„s that in indifferent thinges one must not offeÌ„d another but the stronge but forbeare rather theÌ„ offeÌ„d his weake brother other wyse he wounds the weake conscience sinnes against Christ 1. Cor 8. TheÌ„ how much lesse hath any man power to be lord over the weake conscience forceing it to practice that it hath not faith in bringing it thereby vnto same and vnto condemnation Rom. 14. wee do vnfainedly acknowledg the authority of earthly Magistrats Gods blessed ordinance and that al earthly authority and comaund apperteynes vnto theÌ„ let them comaund what they will wee must obey either to do or suffer vpoÌ„ paine of Gods displeasure besides their punishment But al men must let God alone with his right which is to be lord and law-giver to the soule aÌ„d not comaund obedience for God where he comaundeth none And this is onely that which wee dare not but maintaine vpoÌ„ the peril of our soules which is greater then bodily afflictioÌ„ And onely for the maintenance of Christs right herein do false Prophets and deceivers who by that craft are clothed in fyne apparel and faire deliciously every day labor to make vs odious iÌ„ the ears aÌ„d eyes of Prince and people knoweing wel that if they had not power by persecution to force meÌ„ to dissemble to beleeve as they their kingdome and paine would soone come to nought the wickednes of which course is discovered in this writinge followeing For the manner being Dialogue-wise wee thought it the fittest in two respects First for the vnderstanding of the simple to whome especially Gods misteries apperteyne more then to the wise and prudent of the world Secondly because al the objections that wee have met with might be set downe and the playnelyer answered And because wee have faith and assurance that many wil see and acknowledg the vnlawfulnes of tyraÌ„nyzing over the conscieÌ„ce vn persecuting the bodies of such as cannot be subject wee have also thought it meet to manifest the careful estate of such subjection that they may deliver their soules if they wil be saved and also have set downe the beginning of that old and good way that Iohn Baptist Christ Iesus aÌ„d his Apostles have left vnto al that wil be saved â—nto the end of the world Beseeching that Almighty worker that he would worke in the harts and consciences of men that they may enquire for it and that out of the scriptures and walke therein theÌ„ shal they find rest vnto their soules although afflictions to their bodies Oh 〈…〉 is time for the Lord to worke for they have destroyed his law and have set vp in many Nations such worship for God as best pleaseth theÌ„ that are in authority and have power to persecute the contrary mynded Let all Gods people cry How long Lord when wilt thou come to destroy Antychrists cruel Kingdome and establish Christs meeke and peaceable Kingdome as thou haist begun even come Lord Iesus by the Spirit of thy Moueth and the brighnes of thy coming even come quickely Amen By Christs vnworthy witnesses his Majesties faithful subjects Comonly but most falsly called Annabaptists Antichristian VVhy come you not to Church Christian What should I do there A. VVorship God C. I must worship God as he requireth aÌ„d not as any mortal man requireth A. True but the worship that wee require you to offer vp is the vvorship God requireth C. If it be so I wil withal willingnes asseÌ„t vnto it but my conscience must be satisfied there of by the word of truth that I may have faith in it other wise it is my grevious sai Rom. 14.23 For I may not beleeve it so to be because you affirme it A. VVell you must go to Church othervvise you are disobedient to the law vvil fall vnder punishment C. But still remember that you would have me worship God as you pretend therefore let vs agree what worship God requireth Christ saith Ioh 4.24 God is a spirit they that worship him must worship him in spirit truth Here wee see what worship God requireth viz That wee worship him with our soules and Spirits and also that we worship him according to the truth of his word And therefore for your booke worship If it were according to truth from the which it is as far as light is from darknes yet if I cannot offer it vp with my Spirit it is not acceptable to God but most abhominable A. Well you must come to Church C. I pray let aske you a question do you seeke the glory of God and the salvation of my soule herein or your owne obedience A. I seeke the glory of God and the salvation of your soule not my ovvne obedience C. Then manifest it no by words onely but by deeds and truth which if you do you will not threaten me punishmeÌ„t to cause me to come but with meekenes and patience satisfye my conscience by the word of truth for this is the duety of the Minist of Christ 2. Tim. 2.24 that I may come with a willing mynd so shall I be accepted 2. Cor. 8.12 Psal 110.3 For if by threatning me punishment as imprisonment banishment or death
Lvk. 20.25 Now if al the outward man bee Cesars and the inward man too so that he must be obeyed in his owne matters and in Gods matters also then tell vs what shall be given to God If you or any maÌ„ will give him more power or authority then I give him then you give him more then his Ma tie requireth as shal bee shewed A. Wee do not say that the King can compell the Soule but onely the outward Man C. If he cannot compel my soule he cannot compel me to worship God for God cannot bee worshipped without the soule Ioh. 4 24. jf you say he may compel me to offer vp a worship onely with my bodie for the spirit you confesse he cannot compell to whome is that worship not to God Then consider you who they worship that are thus compelled say you by the King Let it well be here observed that you make the King a comaunder of such worship as is not to God contrary to his Ma ties owne mynd manifest in his writings But this you do not to advance Gods glory nor the kings honor but your owne cursed kingdome of darknes which you hold by flattery aÌ„d falshood For if this coÌ„pelled worship which is not to God were takeÌ„ away then your kingdome would fal to hel froÌ„ wheÌ„ce it came and therefore all Men map here see it is supported onely by wickednes A. I confesse the Kings authority is earthly but he is head over the Church vnder Christ C. God forbid that any mortall Man should so equallize himself with Christ who allone is Head of his church as the Husband is of the VVife Ephe. 5 23. And hath left no oâ—e-gecent in that his office for he is never absent froÌ„ his Church Mat. 18.20 and 28.20 All that any mortal MaÌ„ can be is to be a subject of his Kingdome for their is but one Lord. 1. Cor. 12.5 one law-giver Iam. 3.12 And that this is so his Ma tie confirmeth by his owne testimony in his Apologie for the oath of allegeance Pag. 46.47 But as I wel allowe of the Hyrarchie of the church for distjuctioÌ„ of orders for so I vnderstand it so I vtterly deny that there is any earthly Monarch thereof whose word must bee a law and who cannot err in his sentence by an infallibility of spiritâ— because earthly kingdomes must have earthly Monarchs it doth not followe that the church must have a visible Monarch too For the VVorld hath not one earthly temporall Monarch Christ is his Churches Monarch the Holy ghost his deputie The Kings of the gentiles reigne over them but ye shall not be so Luk. 22.25 Christ did not promisse before his assention to leave Peter with them to direct instruct them in all thinges but he promissed to send the Holy ghost vnto them for that end These are his highnes owne words whereby it evidently appeareth his Ma tie challengeth no supremacie over the Church but laboreth to overthrowe that abhominable exaltacion of that Man of sin in the Romish professioÌ„ for Christ hath given no supremacie in or over his Church to any mortall man but expresly commaunded the contrary as the place of Luk mencioned by his Ma tie plainely declareth His highnes is supreame head and gouvernor over all his subjects bodies and goods within his dominions and therein I detest and abhorr all forraigne powers whatsoever But now for the thinge in controversie betwixt you and me of compelling Men by persecutions to do service to God as is pretended wherein they have not faith it shal be manifest not to be of God in that Christ Iesus himself the onely Lord and law-giver to the soule neither had any such power and authority neither taught any such thinge to his Disciples but the contrary First Mat. 28.18.19 All power is given me in Heaven in earth Go therefore teach all Nations and 2. Cor. 10.4 The VVeapons of our war fare are not carnall but mighty through God to cast downe Holds c. Here wee see Christ hath no Worldly power nor Worldly Weapons 2ly He practised and taught the contrary VVhen the Samaritanes would not receive him goeing to Ierusalem Luk. 9. his disciples would have had fire come downe from heaven devoured them Christ rebuked them said ye knowe not of what spirit ye are the Son off man is not come to destroy mens lives but to save them And the Appostle by the Spirit of Christ 2. Tim. 2.24 Comaundeth the servants off the lord not to strive but to bee gentle towards all men apt to teach suffering the evil men patiently instructing them vvith meeknes that are contrary mynded proveing if God at any time vvil give them repentance that they may knowe the truth come to amendment out of the Devils snare c. These Scriptures need no explanation for this most evident truth A. VVell yet notvvithstanding all this it is manifest in the Scriptures by the example of Thappostle Peter smiting Ananias and Saphira to death Act. 5. of Th-appostle Paul striking Flymas the socerer blind Act. 13 11. And also by delivering Hemineus Alexander vnto Sathan for the destruction of the Flesh that punishment vpon the body may bee vsed the flesh destroyed For if it were lawful for them to smite to death the like though by extraordinary meanes then it must be lawful for vs by ordinary meanes since extraordinary meanes now failed If you say it be not Lawfull for vs then you must say it was not Lawfull for them that vvere to accuse them of laying a false foundation vvhich none fearing God wil affirme C. I dare not once admit of such a thought as to disallowe the truth off that foundation which th-â—oposties as skilfull maister builders have said But for your argument of Peters extraordinary smiting of Ananias and Saphira he neither laid hand vpon them nor threatned them by word onely declared what should be san them from God and therefore serveth no thing to your purpose also that of Paul to Elimas he laid no hands vpon him but onely declared the Lords hand vpon him and the judgment that should followe If you can so pronounce and it so come to passe vpon any do it and then it may bee you may bee accounted maister builders and layers of a new foundation or another gospell And for Th-appostle Paul his delivering Hymeneus and Alexander vnto Sathan 1. Tim. 1.20 It was not by any temporall sword or power but even by the power of our Lord Iesus Christ in his name by the sword of the Spirit 1. Cor. 5.4 And this was not extraordinary but ordinarye to continue in all churches to the end and not to destroy the outward Man as you teach and practice but to destroy those iustfull affections which dwell in the flesh that so the flesh being mortified the Spirit may bee quickned and the Soule saved in the day of the Lord Iesus And whereas you say that
power off Rome The Beast or to that Spirituall cruell power off England his Image wheresoever they or eyther of them are exalted such a one and such persons shall drinke off the wine off Gods wrath and bee tormented in fire and brimstone and shall have no rest day nor night for evermore I. Your discription of the Beast the Papists will deny so will the English Lord Bbs and their followers deny your discription of his ymage but thousands will grant both and some will deny both as the Familists who say that ReligioÌ„ standeth not in outward thinges aÌ„d therefore they wil submit to any outward service and they that do not so but suffex persecution say they are iustly persecuted C. Those enimies to the Crosse of Christ are most of them not worth enformation because for the most part they are such as do with an high hand sin after enlightninge haveing forsaken the way wherein they walked because they would not beare Christs Crosse but in that some simple soules may be seduced by them let vs a little in generall compare their opinion with the scriptures True it is that religion standeth not onely in outward thinges for God requireth the hart and truth in the inward parts but that God requireth not our subjection vpon feareful punishments to those outward ordinances which he requireth is a doctrine of devils as I shall prove And first for the outward ordinances off the old TestameÌ„t which were meerly shadowes now are beggerly rudiments Gal. 4.16 what indignation the lord had towards them that transgressed Nadab and Abihu offering straing fire which the Lord hath not comaunded a fire went out from the Lord devoured them Levit. 10.1.2 The men off Bethshâ—mosh lokeing into the outward arke which God had forbidden Num 4.20 The Lord slevve fifty thousand threescore and ten of them 1. Sam. 6.19 Ozza of a good intent leaninge his shoulder to the same outward arke which God forbad the Lord slewe him 1. Chro. 13 7.-10 Ozziah the King offering vp outward incense which God comaunded onely the Preist Num. 18.3.7 The Lord smit him with leprosye vntil his death 2. Chro. 26. Corah and his company what feareful judgments came vpon theÌ„ though he a Levite for presuming to meddle with the Preists office the earth openinge and swallowing them vp Num. 16. King Saule likewise offering vp incense in time off need as he thought the Lord rent his Kingdome from him 1. SaÌ„ 13. as also for his disobedience afterwards touchinge the fat of Amelecks cattle 1. SaÌ„ 15. How often was the wrath of the Lord powred downe vpon the Isralites because off their transgression of his outward ordinances in place person and thinges for it was a Low Levit. 17.3.4 That who so brought not his sacrifice to the place viz to the doore of the tabernacle of the congregation but offered it vp other where blood should be imputed to that man he should be cut off from among his people yea such sacrifices were estemed off God as offered to devils vers 7. the lord caused them to pronounce Dewt. 27.26 cursed be he that confirmeth not al the words of thir law to do them all the people must say so be it was God thus jealous of Moses ordinances aÌ„d is the lesse jelous of Christs must he die that dispiseth Moses law and shal he escape that dispiseth Christs vpon what pretence soever And Christ saith It becometh him all his to fulfill all righteousnes in outward ordinaÌ„ces as washinge with water Mat. 3.15 whosoever saith he knoweth God keepeth not his comaundments which are outward as wel as inward he is a lyar 1. Ioh. 2.4 whosoever breakes the least comaundment and teacheth men so he shal be called the least in the kingdome of heaven Mat. 5.19 whosoever will not heare that Prophet Chr Iesus in al thinges that he shal say vnto theÌ„ shal be destroyed out off his people Act. 3.22.23 the affectioÌ„s of the soule are to be manifested by the actions of the body according to Gods word and al other good inteÌ„ts or affections are abhominable Wee may not neither can wee Worship God with our Spirits and the Devill with our Bodies For VVee are bought VVith a price and therefore must not bee the Servants off Men but must glorifie God with our bodies with out spirits for they are his 1. Cor. 6.20 and. 7.23 And this mai suffice to satisfy any coÌ„cerning the over throwe off this accursed conceit knowing also that Christ and his Apostles and all his Disciples to the end of the world might and may live peaceably enough from persecution if this doctrine might be observed viz submissioÌ„ with our bodies to any outward service The Lord discover such Hipocrites I. I blesse God I have learned of thApostle 2. Cor. 13.8 To say nothing against the truth but for the truth and therefore when I see thinges are evidently manifested by the scriptures disirous to submit aÌ„d not to cavil But you knowe it is pleaded they have the word and Sacraments in the English assemblies C. I confesse they have the scriptures in the which Gods misceries are conteyned which is locked vp from theÌ„ aÌ„d revealed to his Saincts Col. 1.26 which they woefully pervert to their owne destruction They have also imitations of Gods ordinances as water bread and wine aÌ„d other thinges which they use after their owne inveÌ„tions which thinges maketh them boast so much of their Christianity and of their Church and which maketh them reason thus Wee are Gods people for wee have the word and Sacraments The Philistimes might better have reasoned 1. SaÌ„ 5. who had the true arke of God amongst them these have but a shewe Wee are Gods people for wee have Gods Arke and holy Oracles amongst vs. But I thinke they had no great cause to rejoyce there of in the eÌ„d No more shal these have in the end when God recompenceth al that with hold the truth in vnrighteousnes Gods dealing is not now as it was of old he now reserveth punishmeÌ„t to the last day he is patieÌ„t and would have men repent but they despise his bountifulnes and long suffering preaching peace when there is no peace I. It cannot be denyed but that the ministers preach many excellent truths and do bring people to much reformation in many thinges C. True it cannot be denyed For if the devil should come in his owne likenes men would resist him but because he traÌ„sformeth himselfe into an Angel of light therefore he deceiveth So his ministers if they should teach al lyes meÌ„ would not be deceived by them nor plead for them but because they teach many truths people receive them but first for whatsoever they teach they neither could nor should teach publiquely their moueths should be stopped if they received not that their power to teach such truths froÌ„ those the Dragon sends aÌ„d therefore none caÌ„ receive those truths from theÌ„