THE TRYAL OF John Hambden Esq The 28 th day of November 1683. Ann. 35. Car. 2. Reg. John Hambden Esq being brought up by Writ of Habeas Corpus from the Tower of London and there being an Indictment preferred against him for Misdemeanor His Majesties Attorney General prayed that he might be Aâ—â—igned upon it which was done in this manner Cl. of Cr. JOhn Hambden You stand here Indicted by the Name of John Hambden late of the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex Gent. For that you being a Pernitious and Seditious Man and a Person of a Wicked mind and of an impious unquiet and turbulent Disposition and contriving practising and falsly unlawfully unjustly maliciously turbulently and seditiously intending the Peace of our Soveraign Lord King Charles that now is and the common Tranquility of this Kingdom of England to disquiet molest and disturb and as much as in you lay Sedition within this Kingdom of England to incite stir up and procure and the Government of our said Lord the King in this Kingdom of England into danger to bring And that you the said John Hambden your most Impious Wicked and Seditious Intentions aforesaid to fulfil and perfect and bring to effect the last day of June in the Five and Thirtieth year of the Reign of our said Soveraign Lord the King that now is and divers other days and times as well before as after with Force and Arms c. At the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex unlawfully unjustly maliciously and seditiously did assemble your self meet consult conspire and confederate with divers evil disposed Subjects of our said Lord the King to the Jurors unknown and with the said Persons did treat concerning your said most Wicked and Seditious Compassings Imaginations and Purposes aforesaid to be executed fulfill'd and brought to effect and further that you the said John Hambden your most Wicked Impious and Seditious Contrivances Practices and Intentions aforesaid to fulfil perfect and reduce to effect then and there viz. the last day of June in the 35th year aforesaid and divers other days and times as well before as after at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid with Force and Arms c. falsly unlawfully unjustly maliciously and seditiously did consult consent censpire and confederate of an Insurrection within this Kingdom of England to be made and of procuring and providing Arms and Armed Men to be prepared in divers places within this Kingdom of England your same most Wicked Impious and Seditious Intentions and Compassings aforesaid to fulfil and perfect And that you the said John Hambden your most Wicked Impious and Seditious Intentions aforesaid to fulfil and perfect and bring to effect afterwards viz. the last day of June in the 35th year aforesaid at the Parish aforesaid in the County aforesaid with Force and Arms c. falsly unlawfully unjustly wickedly maliciously and seditiously did consult agree and consent that a certain Person to the Jurors aforesaid unknown should be sent into Scotland to invite and incite divers evil disposed Subjects of our said Lord the King of his Kingdom of Scotland to come into this Kingdom of England to advise and consult with you the said John Hambden and others the aforesaid evil disposed Subjects of our said Lord the King in this Kingdom of England concerning Aid and Assistance to be expected and supplyed out of the said Kingdom of Scotland your said most Wicked Impious and Seditious Intentions and Compassings aforesaid to fulfil effect and promote in manifest contempt of the Laws of this Kingdom of England to the evil and most pernicious Example of all others in the like case offending and against the Peace of our said Soveraign Lord the King his Crown and Dignity How sayst thou art thou Guilty of this High Misdemeanour whereof thou standest Indicted and hast been now Arraigned or not Guilty Mr. Hambden Not Guilty Upon which Plea issue was joyned between His Majesties Attorney General on behalf of the King and Defendant and Bail was then taken for the Defendants appearance the next Term. Hillary Term 35 and 36. Car. Secundi Reg. In the beginning of the Term Sir Thomas Jenner Knight His Majesties Serjeant at Law and Recorder of the City of London Moved for a Tryal at the Bar in the Case between the King and Mr. Hambden which was by the Court appointed to be on Wednesday the 6th of February in the same Term. Die Mercurii 6. Februarii 1683. Anno Regni Reg. Car. Secundi 36. Cl. of Cr. Call the Defendant John Hambden Mr. Williams He appears Cl. of Cr. Gardez votrez Challenges Call Sir Charles Gerard. Cryer You shall well and truly try the Issue between our Soveraign Lord the King and John Hambden Gent. and a true Verdict give according to your Evidence So help you â—â—d Jurat Sir Charles Gerard. Cl. of Cr. Roger Jennings Esq Jur. Henry Hodges Esq Jur. Joshua Galliard Esq Mr. Williams We challenge him for the Defendant L. Ch. Just What is your Cause of Challenge Mr. Williams If your Lordship please to let him go through the Pannel we will shew cause if there be not enough left without him L. Ch. Just No shew your Cause now it being against the King Mr. Williams He has an Employment under the King He has an Office in the Forest and that we say is our Cause of Challenge L. Ch. Just What then if he have Mr. Williams My Lord We suppose then he is not an indifferent Person to try this Cause L. Ch. Just Ay let me hear that now proved and defended by any Gentleman of the long Robe that that is a good cause of Challenge Shew me what Law there is for it Mr. Williams To be of the Kings Robe or Pay or Sallery is an exception in any Case wherein the King is concerned L. Ch. Just Shew me any Law for that if you can Mr. Williams I know you are a Lawyer Mr. Wallop It is the Opinion of my Lord Coke in his Institutes that it is a good Cause of Challenge L. Ch. Just But there is the Opinion of all the Judges in Henry the Fourths time against it Mr. Wallop It is my Lord fol. 156. L. Ch. Just But I can cite you three or four Books and you have them all together in Rolls Abridgment Title Challenge where he sets down four Books one after another That it is no cause of Challenge even to be the Kings Tenant and there is a great deal of reason for it For if that were a good Cause of Challenge mark the Consequence then all Persons that hold Lands in England hold them mediately or immediately of the King and so the King could have no Free-holders to be Jury-Men in his Cause Mr. Williams This is a more special Cause of Challenge than that L. Ch. Just What can be greater than that of being the Kings Tenant Mr. Att. Gen. Especially when all the Land
I would never for my part while I live nor never did while I was a practiser stand upon any particular Jury-man Mr. Att Gen. He may be a Jury-man by Law sure L. Ch. Just There is no doubt of it Mr. Attorney Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord If your Lordships have given your Opinion I desire he may stand by L. Ch. Just Well Mr. Attorney waves him Let him stand by Mr. Att. Gen. But for no Reason that has been offered L. Ch. Just No no I don't hear any thing of Reason offered for it Cl. of Cr. Mr. Galliard You may go down Thomas Harriott Esq Jur. Thomas Earsby Esq Jur. William Avery Esq Jur. John Sharpe Esq Jur. Richard Shoreditch Mr. Williams We challenge him for the Defendant L. Ch. Just What is your Cause of Challenge Mr. Williams There is the same exception to him L. Ch. Just If Mr. Attorney will consent with all my heart Mr. Sol. Gen. No we humor'd you in one we won't humor you any more Mr. Williams Nay here is something more clear for us He is a Serjeant at Arms attending His Majesty Mr. Just Wythins You know our Opinions already Mr. Williams unless Mr. Attorney consent we can't do it Mr. Williams We only acquaint Mr. Attorney with it we must submit to your Rule he is certainly Serjeant at Arms he came in the place of Dereham that let my Lord Gray escape Mr. Att. Gen. Pray prove it I don't know it for my share Mr. Williams Will you ask him the Question Mr. Att. Gen. Pray prove it Are we to gratifie your Clyent Pray let him better instruct his Counsel L. C. Just If Mr. Attorney consent not then he must be sworn Mr. Att. Gen. If there be enough without him that do appear let him stand by Cl. of Cr. Stand down Mr. Shoreditch Charles Good Esq Jur. Mr. Att. Gen. That it may appear how fair things were carried they would not strike out one of these Men when they came before the Protonotary as they might have done Mr. Just Wythins Truly that was not well done to trouble the Court when you might make your exceptions there Mr. Williams We did not know it then now we do we offer it to the Court. Cl. of Cr. Sam. Rouse Esq Jur. Hugh Squire Esq Jur. Nehemiah Arnold Esq Jur. and John Bifeild Esq Jur. Then the Jury were numbred and the 12 sworn were these Sir Charles Gerard Baronet Jur. Roger Jennings Esq Jur. Henry Hodges Esq Jur. Thomas Harriott Esq Jur. Thomas Earsby Esq Jur. William Avery Esq Jur. John Sharpe Esq Jur. Charles Good Esq Jur. Samuel Rouse Esq Jur. Hugh Squire Esq Jur. Nehemiah Arnold Esq Jur. John Bifeild Esq Jur. Cl. of Cr. Gentlemen of the Jury You that are sworn Hearken to your Charge The Defendant John Hambden stands Indicted by the name of John Hambden of the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in the County of Middlesex Gent. Prout in the Indictment mutatis mutandis To this Indictment he has pleaded not Guilty and for his Tryal puts himself upon the Country and the Kings Attorney General likewise which Country you are your Charge is to inquire whether the Defendant be Guilty of the great Misdemeanour whereof he stands Indicted or not Guilty if you find him Guilty you are to say so and if you find him not Guilty you are to say so and no more and hear your Evidence Then Proclamation was made for Evidence in usual form Mr Holoway May it please your Lordship and Gentlemen you that are sworn I am of Counsel for the King upon this Indictment Gentlemen the Indictment sets forth that the Defendant being a Seditious Malitious Evil disposed Person and Seditiously and Maliciously intending to disturb the Peace of the Kingdom the last day of June in the 35. year of his now Majesty's Reign and divers other days and times at the Parish of St. Giles in the Fields in your County did unlawfully assemble and confederate himself with divers Evil-disposed Persons Subjects of our Lord the King and then and there with those other persons did Falsly Maliciously and Seditiously consult and conspire to make an Insurrection in the Kingdom of England and to provide Arms and Armed men in divers places of the said Kingdom And the better to compleat his Evil Intentions the said last day of June did consult and agree to send certain persons to the Jurors unknown into Scotland to invite several Evil-disposed Persons there to joyn in this Conspiracy This is the Substance of the Charge and to this he says He is not Guilty If we prove him so we do not question but you will find it Mr. Att. Gen. May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of this Jury Mr Hambden stands Indicted of an High Misdemeanour for conspiring with several others to raise Rebellion within the Kingdom and to crave the Assistance of the Brother-hood of Scotland Upon the face of the Indictment Gentlemen it appears to be a very high Crime and the matter of this indeed has been formerly in examination in other Tryals and yet the Party you may observe do not acquiesce in those Tryals but think the Persons accused lay under very great hardships and that to a very great degree as not having the advantage of Counsel nor to have their Witnesses examined upon Oath and therefore Gentlemen the King is pleased to go less in this Case than in the others That this Gentleman who is now before the Court may clear his innocence if he has any Witnesses to do it And if there be any advantage that the having of Counsel can contribute to his Cause he has that allowed him too The Course of our Evidence Gentlemen will be this We shall prove to you that Mr. Hambden with five other Persons I shall name them The Duke of Monmouth my Lord Russel Mr. Sidney my Lord of Essex and my Lord Howard they met several times the particulars we shall give you an account of one was at Mr. Hambden's house another was at my Lords Russels where they did contrive together and took upon them to be a Juncto or a Counsel of Six collected out of the wisest men of the Kingdom to consider how they might better the Affairs of the Nation and how they might make a Stir For they thought there was no way possible otherwise of doing it but by their joynt Counsels to carry on a Rising And that they might do it the Better they resolved to crave the Assistance of Scotland Gentlemen We shall give you an account of their Consults and Debates and shall shew you that at length they came to a Resolution That the rising was to be carried on joyntly in London and the several parts of the Kingdom in several Countries at once Then they came to think and consider whether it were not best to send into Scotland to draw them in too And thereupon it was agreed by this Juncto That they would send thither and the management of
you know of Sir Andrew Foster My Lord I did see those Gentlemen in the beginning of last Summer Sir John Cockram and Mr. Monrow and Cambell the Son I did see but the Father I did not but I do know he was in Town tho I saw him not Mr. Att. Gen. How do you know it Sir Andrew Foster I had Messages from them L. C. Just Sir Andrew You say you saw Sir John Cockram and Monrow Sir Andrew Foster Yes L. C. Just Did you see any body else Sir Andrew Foster I saw Sir George Campell the Son Mr. Att. Gen. What became of them upon the Discovery of the Plot Sir Andrew Foster Sir John Cockram did Abscond and Mr. Monrow was taken into Custody Mr. Att. Gen. What became of the others Sir Andrew Foster The Campells were both in Custody Mr. Att. Gen. Did you see any Commission they had Sir Andrew Foster I did see a Commission that Sir John Cockram had Mr. Att. Gen. What was it for Sir Andrew Foster To make a Purchase of some Plantations beyond Sea I think it was Carolina L. C. Just Ay where my Lord Shaftsbury had an Interest Sir Andrew Foster It was some of the West-Indies L. Howard I did omit that passage my Lord Mr. Att. Gen. Pray was it discoursed then what should be the Blind for these Gentlemen that were notorious Dissenters that they should come to Town from Scotland about L. Howard It was to carry on a Plantation in Carolina The Scotch Gentlemen were personally known to my Lord Russel only and my Lord Russel was to write the Letter to them and I suppose did Mr. Att. Gen. Mr. Atterbury What do you know of these Scotch-men coming to Town and what became of them afterwards Mr. Atterbury My Lord about the beginning of July Fourth Fifth or Sixth or thereabouts I had some Information That there were some Scotch Gentlemen that had been shifting up and down and at that time were about Black-Fryers lodged there secretly I immediately went with the King's Proclamation and some Warrants that I had to apprehend some Traytors that were fled And when I came I found that Mr. Common Serjeant having Notice of them had beat up their Quarters and they were endeavouring to escape by Water but there they were catched There was Sir Hugh Campel and Bayley and Sir George Campel and some others I know not the Names of them all truly I can't tell whether Monrow was not another but Sir Hugh Campel I had in my Custody and Bayley was immediately committed to the Gate-house and the rest of the Gentlemen I afterwards took in a cunning Hole by Moor-Fields in a back house And when I came there I found them lyeing on the Bed in the middle of the Day and had them Prisoners in my Custody two or three Months and then they were all sent out of my hands into Scotland Prisoners Six of them there were my Lord that I saw Mr. Att. Gen. We have done my Lord only we desire that a word of a Record may be read Mr. Williams What Record is it Sir Mr. Att. Gen. Of Collonel Sidneys Attainder Mr. Williams My Lord We shall desire your Judgment whether that Record ought to be read against Mr. Hambden I perceive by Mr. Attorney that 't is a Record of the Conviction of Mr. Sidney which ought not to be given in Evidence against Mr. Hambden upon this Indictment Mr. Att. Gen. We make use of it to shew how upon former Tryals upon this Evidence Verdicts have gone Mr. Williams We are in your Judgment my Lord if by Law it may be given in Evidence against Mr. Hambden who is neither Party nor Privy to it nor Indicted for the same Offence Mr. Att. Gen. Let it alone then L. C. Just Well Mr. Attorney does not press it What say you to it Gentlemen for the Defendant Mr. Williams May it please your Lordship and you Gentlemen of the Jury I am of Counsel for Mr. Hambden the Defendant upon this Indictment here before you This Indictment is a severe Indictment It is a very high Crime of which my Clyent is Accused How far the Evidence tends to reach it you have heard and I shall with the patience of the Court particularly observe it to you But I shall first speak to the Indictment it self It saies that Mr. Hambden being a person of a turbulent Disposition and Seditiously intending to disturb and disquiet the King's Peace and to stir Sedition and to bring the Government into danger did Conspire c. As to this matter Gentlemen there is no manner of Proof of what the Indictment charges as to the Disposition of the person Accused nor that he had any other design than what my Lord Howard hath now Sworn Then it saies further that Mr. Hambden did Consult and Conspire with divers persons to execute these purposes and particularly for the making and raising of an Insurrection in the Kingdom This is laid as the particular Fact And for this purpose he did further Conspire with several persons to provide Armes and Armed-men And for their fulfilling of this he did further Consult with several persons that some persons should be sent into Scotland to stir up the Kings Subjects in Scotland to a Concurrence and Conjunction with some People in England about this his evil design How far this Indictment is proved upon the Defendant Gentlemen is the Question before you He has pleaded Not Guilty and hopes to satisfy you he is not Gentlemen as to what Evidence has been given you so far as 't is Positive and Affirmative I mean the Testimony of my Lord Howard in that part it is impossible for us that are of Counsel for the Defendant directly to contradict him with Proof or to give a direct positive proof in answer to it I say 't is impossible for us to contradict him who gives such a positive Evidence of Fact By the Evidence of my Lord Howard he tells us there were Six Persons in this Council as he is pleased to call them By his Evidence three of the six are dead my L. Russel Col. Sidney and the Earl of Essex He himself is the Fourth the Defendant is the Fifth who cannot give Evidence for himself and the Duke of Monmouth who is the Sixth being away there is not any person in being that should contradict my Lord Howard's Affirmative in this part of his Evidence but the Duke of Monmouth Whom we cannot have here since it appears by the Evidence Mr. Att. Gen. could not prevail to have him at this Tryal therefore proof of that nature cannot be reasonably expected from my Clyent to acquit himself by a positive Contradiction of what my Lord Howard has sworn Then in this Case we must as in all Cases where a person does Swear directly against a Defendant endeavour to satisfie and perswade your Lordship and the Jury upon Circumstances arising out of this Fact and further Circumstances attending the Fact and by probable
allegata probata that is their duty L. Ho. Does that fellow look like a Man of that Figure That I should say any thing or have any conversation with him L. C. J. My Lord I don't know what he is Go on Gent. Mr. Will. My Lord VVe have done with our Evidence If Mr. Attorney will leave it here we will Mr. Att. Gen. My Lord we won't mistrust the Evidence nor the Court. Mr. Hambden My Lord I desire to speak a word my self if you please L. C. J. Ay in God's Name You or your Counsel I will hear all you will say and as long as you will speak provided you speak within the bounds of decency Mr. Will. My Lord I think it best to leave it to the Court VVe hope we have made it clear that our Client is Innocent L. C. J. VVould to God you were Innocent that is the worst wish I wish you but we will either hear him or you speak speak as long as you will Mr. VVallop My Lord. I desire to make but one Observation L. C. J. Ay in God's Name make what Observations you will Mr. VVallop I hindred you from making your Observations at first because I knew it would be desired after the Evidence was over Mr. Att. Gen. Then my Lord I expect to be heard too If Mr. Hambden makes a Speech I will reply or if his Counsel do it I expect the last word for I will have neither the Party nor the Counsel to speak after I have summ'd up the Evidence for the King Mr. Hambden and his Counsel are all one Mr. VVallop I have but one short Observation to make L. C. J. Go on then Mr VVallop and say what you will Mr. J. VVithins I think 't is very fit you should do it of both sides 't is a cause of great concernment Mr. VVill. My Lord We will leave it here I think L. C. J. Take your own course Do not say we hinder you of saying what you will for your Client Mr. Att. Gen. Let them do what they will L. C. J. I 'll sit still make speeches every one of you as long as you will Mr. Just VValcot 'T is fit they should speak what they can for the advantage of their Client Mr. VVill. My Lord VVe leave it to the Court. L. C. J. Gentlemen of the Jury the Evidence has been something long and the Counsel both for the King and for Mr. Hambden against whom this Indictment has already been found by the Grand Jury having left it to the Court to Sum up all I shall do it as well as I can And the Question before you Gentlemen is VVhether the Defendant be guilty of the Offence charged in the Indictment or not Guilty and there having been so long an Evidence on the one side and on the other it will be fit for me according to the best of my remembrance to help your Memories by recollecting what has been said on both sides which I shall do as near as I can and if my Brethren will please to supply any thing that shall be omitted by me nay if the Counsel for the King or for the Prisoner will put us in mind of any thing that has been spoken and proved either against or for the Party indicted in God's Name let them have liberty to speak it For it is fit the Question should be left before you with all fairness and according to the best of my Observation and Memory thus it stands The first thing Gentlemen that is considerable to you is that there is such an Indictment as has been already opened unto you that is preferred against Mr. Hambden that does set forth that Mr. Hambden is a Seditious-Person and a Man according to the Language of the Indictment which are words of course and form in an Indictment of this Nature of an evil disposition designing to disturb and distract the Government and that he with several other Persons did conspire to Bring in troubles and perplexities upon the Government and in order to that that there were some meetings between him and several other Persons and that there was a design to conciliate some Persons of another Nation to go along with them in their design particularly some in the Kingdom of Scotland This is the purport in the Indictment to which the Defendant has pleaded not Guilty Gentlemen The Evidence for the King has been of this sort they did at the beginning which yet I must tell you by the way is not any thing of Evidence but the Kings Counsel would make some Overtures to press on their side as the Defendant and those that are of Counsel for Mr. Hambden have made some little hints to press on their side that some Witnesses the one and the others would have had here were subpoena'd but could not be here It seems by the proof Here was a meeting as it was between Six several Persons and they Name them the Duke of Monmouth was one the Lord Howard another the Lord Russel a Third the Earl of Essex a Fourth Algernoon Sidney a Fifth and Mr. Hambden the Sixth As for my Lord of Essex he is gone to his long home my Lord Russel and Mr. Sidney have received Sentence and been executed So there remains Three Surviviving and say they that are for the King We produce my Lord Howard and we have taken care to Summon the Duke of Monmouth by leaving Subpoenas where it could be thought he was to be met with with Promises of his Servants to deliver them to him in order to have the Duke to be a Witness for the King this Day I presume the meaning is They would infer from that that they would give an account of the fairness of this proceeding tho it has been a matter that has obtained a sort of belief in the World as tho the Duke of Monmouth had denied that there was any such thing as this Confederacy and Conspiracy And that has given People occasion to be of very different Opinions and persuasions about the matter but say they to shew we are not afraid to have the Truth come out we have done as much as in us lay to get this Person hither Therefore we have left Subpoena's at his Houses at his Lodging with his Servants and they have promised to take care they should be delivered to him and he is not come Against this on the other side say they for the Defendant VVe have taken all the care we could to bring my Lord Anglesey who was to have been a VVitness for the advantage of the Person indicted but my Lord Anglesey is at present afflicted with a fit of the Gout and for that very reason we can't have him here And so they shew that they have been very zealous to get VVitnesses on their side to vindicate their Reputation but they did not meet with that effect that they desired These two things Gentlemen are matters that are used both against him one way and for
Lord Howard I cannot positively say it was this day or that day of the Month but being about the middle of January I conjecture it was about the 14 th but he is not positive to the day He says accordingly they went to Mr. Hambden's House which was the place first design'd for them to meet in He says there accordingly they did all Six meet and that it being Mr. Hambdens House they thought it most proper for him who was Master of the House who usually bids his Guests welcome to break silence and to impart the business of the Design they met about He says accordingly Mr. Hambden after the first Complements of Entertainment did give an account of the business they were come about and that it was in order to have a Rising This he says was proposed by Mr. Hambden He tells you then they fell into Debate about the time when concerning Men and Arms and Money and likewise concerning the Places He tells you the Places wherein the Rising was design'd to be were Devonshire Cheshire Somersetshire and other places that is as to the Circumstance of the Place Then he tells you concerning the time it was Debated Whether it should be all at one time or at several times Whether they should onely begin here and the Country fall in or all at once That likewise they had in consideration the business of Money and that his Grace the Duke of Monmouth did speak of 30 or 35 Thousand Pounds or some such Sum at that time But then as was natural for men of Deliberation and Consideration to consult about they took into Debate that they might not go headlong to endeavour to conciliate another Party to chime in as he says along with them in the business they were going about and accordingly it was thought fit and proposed That there should be an endeavour to conciliate a friendship with some Persons in Scotland to fall in with them and then he tells you who the Persons were that were named Some of the Names he remembers and others he has forgot he speaks particularly of the Cambeles Sir John Cockram and my Lord Melvin and he says other persons were mentioned but he can't remember their Names and my Lord Russel knew some of these persons and the Duke of Monmouth knew some others of them because of his near Relation to the Earl of Argyle the person that you know was proscrib'd for Treason in the Kingdom of Scotland He says that so far the debate of this Matter went that they thought fit a Messenger should be provided a Trusty man to be sent inâ—â— Scotland to Treat with these Gentlemen about this Matter and my Lord Russel I think he says undertook to write a Letter to be carryed by this Messenger to these Scotch Gentlemen He says pursuant to this Consultation at Mr. Hambdens a Fortnight after or thereabouts which brings it up to the beginning of February then was the Meeting at my Lord Russel's House and there they Debated these Matters over again and the whole managery of sending a Messenger into Scotland was left to the discretion of Col. Sidney and he undertook that Work that was his Post that he was to manage and he does say That he does very well remember That Aaron Smith was the person proposed then and tho' he was unknown to some of the Company yet he was well known to others and by reason of that knowledge that others had of him they looked upon him as a person very fit and every way qualify'd for it So that Gentlemen here is proved a Consultation in order to the Raising of Men to Infest the Government a discourse concerning Money and Arms for this End and the Places where and the time when and of conciliating a Friendship with some discontented persons in Scotland to joyn and chime in with these Conspirators in England And then there is yet another Circumstance very Remarkable Because tho my Lord spake it not at the same time that he delivered his Testimony yet upon the Question asked he gives you a plain account of it and it has a plain dependance upon what went before Said they among themselves 'T is proper for us as near as we can to shut the Door against any Exceptions about these Mens coming to Treat with us but how shall we get them hither without Suspition We must have some Shams or Cant or other to be a pretence for these People to come into England and that was agreed to be about some Plantation in Carolina This he says was the Result of that Meeting and that when the Meeting was broke up about Three or Four Days afterwards mind the circumstance of Time Gent. for 't is very material Col. Sidney and he met together they went to Col. Sidney's House and there he saw him take Money out of a Till where there were several hundreds of Guineys or pieces of Gold and as he believes he says he took Threescore Guineys or some such Sum and told him it was to give to Aaron Smith in order to his Journey into Scotland That he went out with him in his Coach but Mr. Sidney set him down by the way and he himself went into London telling him he went to that purpose to give Aaron Smith the Money Some time after about a Week or a Fortnight or Ten Days after that he says he met with Mr. Sidney again and he says Mr. Sidney gave him an account That he had heard Aaron Smith had been at Newcastle but he had not heard of him since that time and that is another Circumstance in point of Time Gent. So that you have here a positive Oath made by my Lord Howard that Mr. Hambden was privy and consenting to all these Debates as to the Raising of Men and the Levying of Money and about the conciliating a Friendship with these men of Scotland and about sending a Messenger into Scotland to that purpose And if my Lord Howard do Swear true no man living can doubt but that Mr. Hambden is guilty of this Indictment The first meeting was at his House and there he did take notice of what had been formerly done and proposed the things breaking the silence and entering into the Debate which shews that he had been discoursing about it before and had it in his thoughts before or else he could not have propounded it as the end of their meeting Now this Gentlemen Here is a positive Fact and as Mr. VVilliams says true no man living can give any Answer to a positive Fact but by some other things that may be Circumstances to oppose that Fact Now he says there are no Circumstances that have been proved that will give any Credibility to what has been deposed besides the positive Oath of my Lord Howard So that says He your Fact tho it be positively Sworn is not supported by any Circumstances of the Fact that may give Credibility to it And he objects very materially for if it be