shall not depart is Gods promise Mans promise reciprocall is I will not depart from them If I depart that is if man faile They may and shall depart God is then free Now this supposed what assurance is there for my words shall not depart c So your first Text is mistaken peraduenture in the meaning but without peraduenture in the allegation It is Esay 5â— 21. not as you tender it from your aduisers 49. 21. And lastly it is to be vnderstood of the Church of the Iewes in particular conuerted vnto Christ as it seemeth by Saint Paul Rom. 11. 26. and not of the Church of the Christians already conuerted and so you misapply as well as mistake But more ridiculously in your second Text Iohn 14. 16. For haue you read or heard that euer any Protestant maintained That the holy Ghost can erre I suppose not I beleeue you are not so much past shame to say so and yet your conclusion is so The spirit of truth cannot erre For hauing recited the Text of the Gospell your illation is Therefore the spirit of truth hath aboade for euer and shall abide for euer with the Church and consequently cannot erre What Sir cannot erre To my vnderstanding The Spirit of Truth cannot erre can you vnderstand it otherwise But let your barbarismes goe by to the point I answer first you faile and that confessedly in your vndertakings It is but consequently the Church cannot erre therefore confessed not expresly Secondly I answer out of the Text it selfe This promise is for comfort not instruction The Comforter shall abide for euer for Christ there spake of affliction which should ensue Thirdly were it punctually for direction we might reioyne It was a temporary promise a personall priuiledge to the Apostles you thought wee would say so belike supposing wee had no other shift silly men like your selfe therefore you come in with by way of preuention But the Apostles themselues could not abide for euer poore foole that knowest not there is duplex aeternum frequent in Scripture Gods euer and mans euer That for euerlasting as God is This for the terme of his being so for euer is thus no more then while you are all the dayes of your life But we seeke no aduantage we will not take it we grant Gods Spirit eternally assistant to the Catholique Church then represented in the Apostles and therefore we admit that you belye vs in your Proposition The Church can erre to be vnderstood of the Catholique Church as is expressed The third Text in order Esay 35. 8. is so farre from expressing the not erring of the Church that it is a question though such a Nouice as you know it not whether it be to be taken of the Church at all Hierome in his Comments expoundeth it of Christ who saith of himselfe Iohn 14. I am the way the truth the life An high way shall be there and a way and it shall be called the way of holinesse the vncleane shall not passe ouer it but it shall be for those The way faring men though fooles shall not erre therein Who told you that this way was the Church why not the Scripture which is also a way and called a way as to my remembrance the Church is not Ibi erit semita via mundissima quae sancta vocabitur c. There shall be a path saith Hierome and a most cleane way which shall be called Holy and which saith of himselfe I am the way by which way the polluted cannot passe where also we reade it spoken in the Psalme Blessed are the vndefiled in the way And this way that is our God shall be vnto vs so direct so plaine so open and champion that no wandring shall be there Fooles and silly men may walke therein vnto whom in the Prouerbs wisdome speaketh thus If there be any little ones let them come vnto me and shee hath spoken vnto the Fooles Come you and eate of my bread Thus Hierome vpon the place Tertullian in 4. against Marcion is indifferent for Christ the head of the Church or Faith in Christ the life of the Church Your Worship Sir Gagger out of your authoritie cast it meerely vpon the Church Satis pro Imperio if you can out-beare it Howsoeuer it is not expresse as it should be Not to purpose if it were expresse our question is not whether fooles can erre but whether the Church can erre The Church hath often beene compared to a Ship and now at last by you made a Ship of Fooles Content so you be Pilot in that Ship Sir Foole. Once at length you rightly bid vs goe see more For the Text of Iohn 16. 13. is more expresse than all the former He shall leade you into all truth But what if this text concerne not truth vpon Earth but Truth in Heauen What becommeth then of your Not erring Augustine and Bede encline that way What if it be personall vnto the Apostles alone not to the Church or their successours Hee will shew you the things to come and I haue many things to say vnto you but you cannot beare them now these such like passages doe more than seeme to conclude it vnto them What if he meant but All things that were necessary and conuenient for them to know so Theophylact Euthymius and others In this sort the Church is eternally directed so the Church directed cannot erre Matth. 18. 17. It is commaunded by authoritie Tell the Church and heare the Church No good proofe the Church cannot erre For the Scribes and Pharises were to be heard and obeyed yet had no assurance of infallibility Kings and Princes are to be obeyed yet haue they fallen into great enormities Ephes 5. 27. the Church is said to be glorious without spot or wrinckle or blame which is to be vnderstood de toâ—o integrato of the parts in Heauen and earth Of the time to come rather than present Without blame yet not without wrinckle euen here for error may be where blame is none Esay 9. 7. the Kingdome of Christ is to be established with iudgement and with iustice for euer and yet I know no such priuiledge annexed to iudgement or iustice of infallibility No more then Ezech. 37. 26. to a Couenant of peace an Euerlasting couenant to multiplying of them or placing Gods Sanctuary amongst them for euer Luk. 22. 32. and Matth. 23. 3. What correspondency haue they one with another not to speake of reference vnto the poynt In the former Peters faith was prayed for that it might not faile and yet Peter denied Christ Iesus If Peter were not the Church what maketh this Text amongst the rabbâ—e If Peter were the Church may erre as Peter fayled though not eternally one or other In the latter the Pharises must be heard And therefore will you say they erred not If they erred as doubtlesse they did then to what purpose are they pretended for not erring of the Church Much good may the
the Fathers XLII That there is no Purgatory fire or other prison wherein sinnes may be satisfied for after this life XLIII That it is not lawfull to make or to haue Images XLIIII That no man hath at any time seene GOD and that therefore his picture or Image cannot be made XLV That it is not lawfull to worship Images nor to giue any honour to any dead or insensible thing XLVI That blessing or signing vpon the fore-head is not founded on the Scripture XLVII That it is both superfluous and superstitious to repeate one and the same Prayer sundry times These XLVII seuerall positions are said to be Contrary to the expresse words of our owne Bibles whereof some are cited litterally others wee are sent to see with this Item See more and supposed farther to bee contrary to the Doctrine of the ancient Fathers vnto whom we are addressed often not euer with See Fathers that affirme the same Whatsoeuer Text or quotation is in the Gagge the Reader shall finde it in the Margine of this Answere or sometimes in a different Character in the Corps of the Answere So that no neede shall be of the Gagge vnto the Reader nothing being omitted in this Answere that is in the Gagge The Erratues that by reason of the Authors absence haue happened the Reader must be intreated to amend thus In the Preface Pag. 10. lin 27. vrged p. â—1 l. 〈◊〉 deeper p. 12. l. 12. whom p. 1â— l. 9. iuris p. 18. l. 17. â—â—â—as p. 19. l. â—5 gnâ—uiter p. 20. l 14. Prince p. 21. l. 27. iudgements p. 2â— l. 20. dropp writers l. 24. finde one that is p. 22 l. 22. Our In the Answere Pag. 15. lin 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 43. l. 3. to be conuerted p. 57. l. 7. 〈◊〉 out l. â—8 went the. p. 59. l. 19. vpon him p. 66. l. 1. not so much p. 67. l. 〈◊〉 that w◠〈◊〉 83 l. â—0 â—â—â—is pos 〈…〉 i p. 90. l. 10. what then p. 120. l. 20. is possible p. 14â— l. â—2 vrged AN ANSVVERE TO THE LATE GAGGER of PROTESTANTS I. They maintaine in the first place that The Scriptures are easie to be vnderstood WHat hope can wee haue of honest and square dealing with this Catholick-copesâ—mate who beginneth so captiously and deceitfully as to play at fast and loose in ambiguities For no Protestant liuing affirmeth that all Scripture is easie No Papist liuing will or dareth say that no Scripture is easie If some Scripture be easie and some be hard this Generall Proposition The Scriptures are easie is true and this Generall Proposition The Scriptures are not easie is also true viz. Some Scripture is and some is not so This is easie that is hard That which the Protestants maintaine is it expresly against Scripture Yes saith this gagger Contrary to the expresse words of their owne bible 2 Pet. 3. 16. Where Saint Peter speaking of Saint Pauls Epistles saith In which are some things hard to be vnderstood Saint Peter saith but some things by this fellowes own confession he doth not say All things in Saint Pauls Epistles are hard or All Saint Pauls Epistles are hard nor indiffinitely Saint Pauls Epistles are hard but onely some things in his Epistles are hard That some things are it was euer granted that all Scripture all things in Scripture are easie it was neuer so much as dreamed So what contrariety of the Protestants doctrine is there vnto their owne bible No honesty in this fellow nor his director C. W. B. thus to peruert the state of the Question and fasten a lye vpon the Protestants I am sure That place of Esay not vnderstood by the Eunuch Acts 8. 30. 31. is not to purpose against the Protestants And Philip said vnto the Eunuch vnderstandest thou what thou readest and hee said How can I except some man should guide mee therefore c. This is but one particular place and proueth no more but one obscurity in one place of Scripture It is also a Prophecy and Prophecies are assised at obscurity The euents of Prophecies are obscure before they fall and being accomplished not straight-way discerned The Eunuch did know what was said but he could not tell of whom it was spoken The difficulty was but in one point and the hardnesse not generall neither but in part That partiall hardnesse but in one particular That particular but for a time Iudge Reader how many insufficiencies are in this allegation to proue that all Scripture is hard because one place a particular case in one point at that time was hard What honesty in that Proposer this Gaggers good Gossip C. W. B. who hath it thus The Eunuch could not vnderstand the Scriptures who could not vnderstand but one thing in the Scripture that we know Christ called two of his owne disciples fooles and beginning at Moses and all the Prophets hee expounded vnto them all the scriptures the things concerning himselfe before that they could vnderstand them First the answere is the same which serued for the former that the things which they vnderstood not were but some Scriptures Now it followeth not that all are hard because some were Secondly they were Prophecies and so obscure till their accomplishments Thirdly Prophecies of one subiect all the Messias Fourthly the Case is altered with them now they are now easie that were then hard and our Question is of Scripture at this day to men now adayes not of scripture then to men then liuing I adde farther they are fooled for their slownesse of heart that is not so much for a dis-ability to vnderstand those things there spoken of as for dis-proportion in their affection or dis-attention rather vnto those things not so obscure or difficult of themselues especially considering the times then The Shepheard being smitten the sheepe scattered and meeting with those occurrences which they looked not for in the fulfilling of their Hopes wee hoped it was he that should haue restored the kingdome of Israel so that a cloud of humane darkenesse and disheartnings were at that time cast vpon their affections and vnderstandings And if at some time I be ill-disposed to any businesse it is no argument I am so alway or should totally be excluded from medling therewith And lastly this their slownesse was but partiall to vnderstand something of one particular person Which obscurity if in the Subiect it selfe is nothing to obscurity vniuersall But yet further to this point This fellow came forth to quarrell not to plead for naked and bare truth else would he haue dealt sincerely and ingenuously not onely in propounding what the Protestants hold which he doth not but also in not belying the text as hee doth For is it found in our Bibles or in any Bible Hee expounded vnto them all the Scriptures or Hee expounded vnto them in all the Scriptures the things that concerned himselfe Thus I finde it and not otherwise For in this there is a sense in that other
nature of his greatnesse Hic Rhodus hic saltus This is that you should haue expressed out of our Bibles or the Fathers In setting out his greatnesse otherwise you doe but trifle Haue it hee must first and then practise it Happely the execution will bound it out Let vs see how farre Luke 22. 32. And when thou art conuerted strengthen thy Brethren You reade you say confirme In good time reade so still Strengthen and confirme no great ods in either if it be shewed what his greatnesse was and yet strengthen is more than to confirme the Originall is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to stay and hold vp from falling to the purpose and present case of Peter who was to fall and foulely in denying Christ Strengthen or confirme must needes imply execution of greatnesse for to confirme and strengthen what is it but to practise and execute his greatnesse ouer them A poore practise and sorry greatnesse not of soueraigntie to which you driue but of superintendency at most in his Pastorall charge to plant and to water to doe no more It is true He that doth strengthen and confirme is greater than hee that is confirmed but in that act onely of confirming not in vniuersall iurisdiction I hope Your ghostly Father if you were a Potentate and at poynt to dye as his duetie is and office confirmeth you in your Faith Because hee confirmeth you and in that hee confirmeth you hee is your better will you take him for your Lord and Soueraigne therefore Paul strengthened Peter when he went not aright to the Gospel What was then become of Peters headship can your sheepes-head tell To confirme in faith requireth nor implyeth no supremacy in power No other confirmation is intended there Goe cast your Cap then at Peters Primacy from confirming his Brethren See more proofe of your folly Mark 3. 16. Where Saint Peter in the list of the Apostles is onely named first which doth not necessarily inferre hee was the chiefe but wee graunt him a chiefe a prime a first place Wee acknowledge him the greatest amongst the Apostles in many respects And what of this No more but this First you belye vs in your position Secondly you cannot claime your Popes Monarchie from any greatnesse that Saint Peter had Act. 1. 1◠not the 13. Hee speaketh first proposeth a case Will Pope Vrban be contented to doe no more will he callenge no other royalty take it vse it let him goe as farre as euer Saint Peter went as a Bishop and not as an Apostle and wee will goe along with him Therefore in conclusion your texts of Scripture are not to any purpose at all to proue Peters Primacy but you a poppet Much lesse your Fathers see them who list for I haue seene them more times than I haue fingers and toes and could neuer see any such regality in them Theophilact calleth him Prince of the Disciples and so doe I as Aristotle Prince of the Phylosophers and Virgil Prince of Poets who had no commaund for al that either ouer Poets or Phylosophers Eusebius in his Chronicle calleth Saint Peter the first Bishop of Christians Admit hee doe What then First is in respect of time of place order and authoritie Eusebius expresseth not how he meaneth first nay doth hee call him first at all in any sense In my Eusebius I finde no such matter What is in yours I cannot tell I reade but this Petrus Apostolus cum primus Antiochenam Ecclesiam fundasset Romam mittitur vbi Euangelium praedicans xxv annis eiusdem vrbis Episcopus perseuerat Where Romam mittitur is not much for his greatnesse or that principality you giue vnto him and preaching the Gospell is lesse than that Cyril of Hierusalem calleth him Prince and most excellent of the Apostles I adde the Greeke Text is more for your aduantage 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He that standeth before and is head ouer the Apostles And againe in his xi Catech which belike you neuer read no more I guesse did you the other but tooke it vp on credit by reta 〈…〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Peter Prince as you call him of the Apostles a principall Preacher of the Church Titles of honour Quis negat of great honour I adde such as neuer was any like vnto it but honour and aduancement as it is confined so is it designed how farre whereto in what sense He stood first in ranke hee was chiefe among so was Ioab ouer 30. but not King vpon them or Lord ouer them There is an headship which will not reach that illimited power giuen to the Pope Our Lord Vice-God vpon earth Saint Chrysostome hom 55. in Math. neither calleth him Pastor nor head of the Church Some well-willer of the cause added the words In Greeke wee haue but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a man that was a Fisher But admit both Pastor and Caput too what is it to purpose Wee deny no titles giuen vnto him wee deny your inferences vpon those titles If you will thanke me for it I will helpe you to tenne times as many moe titles as you haue collected as transcendant as any of these and when I haue done to as large and ample giuen to Saint Paul Doe you shew mee but one place of any one Father that giueth him that power you challenge to the Pope I except not Leo nor yet Gregorie and I will subscribe viz. for vniuersalitie of iurisdiction infallibilitie of iudgement and power direct or indirect ouer Kings and Kingdomes This is your Helena First chiefe great or greatest will not content you nor satisfie ambition now in the russe Vndertake this trifle not out the time in pleading so idlely and vainely for Saint Peters prerogatiues which wee the Church of England deny not VIII That Saint Peters faith hath failed ANd yet Saint Peter denied Christ Dare you deny that Belike in your opinion and new diuinitie a man may deny Christ and his faith not fayle Turne Turke and his faith not faile onely turne Protestant and his faith faileth But wee must hold it howsoeuer for it is contrary to our owne Bible Luke 22. 3. I haue prayed for thee that thy faith faile not Your Proselites may know you are an Empostor That propose it in these words so opposite to Scripture and euent That leaue it so suspence without distinction Saint Peters faith fayled after this very prayer and assurance and yet Christ obtained what hee did pray for God heard him euer how can you reconcile this Your Masters consider Saint Peter two wayes euen in this prayer made by our Sauiour for him as a priuate man as a publique person or as they loue to speake Head of the Church As a priuate person Christ did pray for him that though his faith fell totally for a time it yet might not faile eternally and for euer as Iudas failed and fell and hee was heard in that he prayed for Peter denied but repented hee
Saint Augustine doth not proceed Weresolue saith he there that a man may collect it by infallible assurance and diuine if wee looke into the faithfulnesse of him that promiseth but if wee consider our owne disposition we assigne no more but probable and coniectural assurance This Bellarmine assigneth This is enough Faction may transport a man to wrangle for more but when once they ioyne issue the difference will not be much Much or little great or small thus or so the Church of England is not touched that designeth neither Vngratefull Colt you are that spurne with your heeles at the brests that gaue you life if not to God yet to nature and impute more vnto her then she meant or intended to determine or maintaine Indeed contrary as you bely them consonant agreeing as they beleeue and maintaine They neuer went against these words of Saint Paul 1. Cor. 9. 27. Lest by any meanes when I preached to others I my selfe should be a Cast-away But they say you mistake and mis-apply those words and therein goe against your owne Directors For their Tenet is that Saint Paul was assured of his saluation whether by ordinary diuine Faith or extraordinary diuine Reuelation I enquire not at present nor much care I take which you ignorantly doo contradict or vnlearnedly doo oppose Secondly you oppose plain Scripture in your Bibles for Saint Paul a Iew by birth as Bellarmine resolueth semper se in numero Electorum point cùm de Praedestinatione loquitur Rom. 8. 9 11. Eph. 1. accounteth himself euer in the Roll of Elect wheresoeuer he mentioneth Predestination as in the 8. 9 11. chapters to the Romans and 1. to the Ephesians And yet say you He was not assured infallibly He dissembled therfore thought one thing said another So much is That Apostle beholding to you They neuer went against him that you intend in those other two Texts of Rom. 11. 20. Philip. 2. 12. For to him that continueth faithfull vnto the end is appointed the reward of eternall life And yet it is possible and I could doo it to puzzle such a Lozzell as your self with expositions of those Texts that might well put off your application but I vndertake no priuate opinions or peculiar interest I iustifie no man but the Church of England That I can doo against your Betters that I will perform against your self A cleanly Put-off but too common and therefore to be smiled-at for your pouerty You will not labour to ouerthrowe it by proof of Fathers For why Your good Patrons were themselues to-seek and you haue but reuersions from other meâ—â— trenchers If it were so improbable as you would haue vs suppose it Catharine could not haue maintained it as he hath done nor put Dominicus à Soto no Baby so to it as I knowe hee hath nor backed it with authorities of Austen and others If so improbable I maruell the Councell of Trent did so hardly passe it and two Legates of three or foure at most professe it went too soon out of their fingers and came to resolution before it had throughly been decided What Spirit directed that Councell in this where the Principall in a sort complains of surreption This I haue from no Heretick Catharine related it from their mouthes He you haue heard was an Arch-bishop of great name and as learned as many were in Trent But I proceed XXIII That euery one hath not his Angell-keeper THis fellow it seemeth had but little emploiment when he vndertook to abridge our Controuersies he is so apt and disposed to enlarge them and set them at odds who would willingly haue been quiet Such Boutifeus as he is hinc ad malam crucem quibus quieta moâ—ere magna merces that loue to see the waters troubled and take the very questioning of things that might rest a sufficient hire to set them on worke that the Father of Diuision may applaude them and crie Oh well done For concerning Angell-keepers what needed this Thesis A thing not defined in any Councell no not in that last Conuenticle of Trent because free and in Opinion euery way The most that can be sayd against Opposers is that of Vasques disputing this Diuinitie probleme Sine graui temeritatis notâ negare non licet VVee cannot deny without very great rashnes that euery man hath his Angell-keeper To this I subscribe with all my heart so doth the Church of England for ought I knowe Indeede I do not finde Decision or Resolution one way or other in the Confession publike of our Church No more do I in any Councell generall or particular to my remembrance in any age The reason is no man did question it all held it a truth and what needed decision where no scruple was The opinion of the antient Schoole the Fathers of the Church is positiue and affiâ—matiue for Angel-Keepers the saying of Saint Augustine is well knowne Parum est fecisse Angelos tuos fecisti et custodes parâ—ulorum It sufficed not my God that thou madest them thine Angels thou createdst them keepers of the little ones The later Schoole runnes mightily the same way though both with some differences How and To Whom and when deputed Before Origens time and he liued long within 300 yeeres after Christ as himselfe relateth Tract 5. vpon Saint Mathew there were two different opinions in the Church The former maintained that onely those had Angell-keepers deputed vnto them who were of the number of Gods elect from the first instant of their Natiuity The other that none but such holy men indeed had Angel-guardians but from the day of their Baptisme and new Birth in Christ assigned them not before or from their Natiuitie This was the opinion of Antiquitie and no more not as the Church of Rome hath enlarged it that Euery man liuing good and bad from the verie first instant of life to the last gaspe hath an Angel-guardian deputed vnto him as I could make manifest if need were and Basil is punctuall and expresse vpon the 33. Psal page 221. and the 48. Psal page 247. Nor doth the Master of Sentences otherwise conceiue it then Vt quisque Electorum habeat Angelum ad sui protectum atque custodiam specialiter deputatum In 2. d. 11. So that hic Magister non tenetur our Roman Vndertakers haue forsaken not alone the Fathers but their owne Doctor Peter Lumbard to enlarge the point And yet this giddy Goose-gaggler must prate he knoweth not what against the Church of England concerning Angell-keepers in this point who with as good reason and to as great purpose mought haue stirred touching Guardians of Kingdomes Cities Corporations Elements and ordering of the world touching the time when the maner how the extent how farre and many other like speculations all disputed of among Diuines in the Church none resolued of as de fide by Diuines for the Church So that had we denied it no such great matter for salus Ecclesiae non
descended not into hell nor deliuered thence the soules of the Fathers AProposition of two feet neither relying vpon either The soules of the Fathers might not bee thence deliuered though Christ descended into hell and Christ might very well go down into hell and yet not deliuer any Fathers thence as finding some other work there to doo and hauing other causes of his descent finding no Fathers to deliuer For the former part of this Position that Hee went not into hell with what face what fore-head can this Fellow shew wee teach it when in our Creed wee professe that He went down into hell and haue publiquely defended it against opposition Nay wee more beleeue it than the Church of Rome doth and are more punctuall in it than are they They quarter out hell into foure Regions Hell of the Damned Purgatory Limbus Infantium and Limbus Patrum This diuision without warrant of holy Writ be it granted them into which of these Quarters into all or into some did the soule of our Sauiour separate from his body descend Say they Into the hell of the Fathers onely really into the other parts virtually or by effects Thus Thomas and who dare deny him Thus the Current of their Schools This is their Tenent and no otherwise Wee professe and beleeue that Christ went into hell that is that the humane soule of our Sauiour in the Interim of separation from the body did essentially and really go downe into hell the place of the Damned and of the Diuels not alone into Limbus of the Fathers which was not there not to suffer any thing there at all for all suffrings ended vpon the Crosse In the Land of darknes and shadow of death began the first step of his exaltation that free among the Dead he walked where he would not being consined to any place that he took reall possession of a part of his Kingdome and presented his person vnto those his vassals hauing beaten his enemy in his chiefest hold chased him out of the castle of his strength triumphed ouer him in himself and preached confusion vnto his foes that would not entertain his mercy in time of life nor partake of grace offred them vnto repentance This is our belief concerning his descent into hell if not orthodox antient and receiued let this wrangler shew where how and we will yeeld vnto better discretion from Antiquity It is idlely supposed that the descent granted we must needs inferre withall a Limbus Patrum or deliuerance of the Fathers out of hell there being alledged not contrary to Scriptures nor Analogy of faith not inferring impiety impossibility improbability absurdity or contradiction so many true good and catholick reasons of our Sauiours descent thither beside this The Fathers he meaneth are the Patriarchs and Prophets and righteous men that liued and died before Christ came in the flesh that expected the Promises and beleeued in hope but enioyed not the fulnesse which we doo since Being dead they are considered two waies in regard of state in respect of place For place the Scripture runneth in generall tearms In the hands of God In Abraham's Bosom With their people and such like thus affirmatiuely determining no certaine place negatiuely resoluing they were not there whereas now they are in the highest heauens and glorious where the Body of Christ resideth exalted aboue all Powers and Principalities For He first entred into the most holy place by his owne bloud They without vs were not to bee perfect standing the first Tabernacle the holiest of all was not yet opened The way was new which he prepared for vs. The gates to be opened were eternall gates neuer opened since they were gates but gates and eternall shut gates together Therefore wee professe with holy Saint Ambrose euery day in our Liturgie When thou hadst ouercome the sharpnes of death thou didst open the Kingdome of Heauen to all Beleeuers This we acknowledge is the receiued opinion of the fathers and for ought I knowe of Protestant Diuines not a few Though they were not in heauen in regard of place yet were they in happinesse in respect of state The soules of the Righteous said he before Christ came are in the hands of God and no kinde of torments shall once touch them This is also the consented doctrine of Antiquity If no kinde of torment then not losse nor paine then not in hell for I neuer heard of hell without all manner pain So it followeth not in opinion of the Antients the soules of the Faithfull were not in heauen aboue properly therefore they were in hell properly Gods hands in which they were are not so shortned his Kingdome is not so narrowed but that hee might well haue moe places than one Receptacles Repositories Resting-places for the righteous where hee would dispose them enow could we be content Curiosity will not stay heer but proceed to enquire Where were they then In what place of the world was their abiding I answer I cannot resolue that for the Scripture hath not determined it Nescire velle quae Magister maximus docere non vult erudita est inscitia It is learned nescience Not to knowe what our grand instructer will not teach It is enough to knowe they are in better case now than they were then With Christ they entred into his Rest Euer they were in the hands of God though not euer in like distance or proportion with God So what need we wrangle about the place if the matter bee agreed touching state See how contrary to our owne Bibles Ephes. 4. 8. out of Psal 68. 18. When he ascended vp on high he led Captiuity captiue and gaue gifts vnto men Christ in his Ascent led Captiues along The Question is Who these Captines were No Sir the question should first of all bee What this Ascent was You take it of his Resurrection It plainly is referred vnto his Triumph into the heauens in his Ascension both in the Prophet and Apostle and by all Interpreters but your self But to follow you in your follies Be it as you would haue it of his Resurrection must these freed Captiues needs be the soules of the Fathers which Christ deliuered out of hell Yes no nay no other possibility For they were not the soules of the Saued nor the Diuels therefore the soules of the Fathers Sir can you finde no mo but these Diuels or Saued Iustin Martyr could and he is ancient pag. 57. edit Rob. Steph. with him in his opinion and I think hee was in his right wits We are those Captiues that since the Ascension of our Sauiour by the preaching of the Gospell of peace are captiued vnto truth being freed and deliuered from error Irenaeus in his wits too I suppose goes not far from this meaning for hauing remembred the Text whcih he referreth to the Passion hee inferreth thus Dominus per passionem mortem destruxit soluit errorem corruptionemque exterminauit ignorantiam destruxit Tertullian was