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A16145 The perpetual gouernement of Christes Church Wherein are handled; the fatherly superioritie which God first established in the patriarkes for the guiding of his Church, and after continued in the tribe of Leui and the prophetes; and lastlie confirmed in the New Testament to the Apostles and their successours: as also the points in question at this day; touching the Iewish Synedrion: the true kingdome of Christ: the Apostles commission: the laie presbyterie: the distinction of bishops from presbyters, and their succcssion [sic] from the Apostles times and hands: the calling and moderating of prouinciall synodes by primates and metropolitanes: the alloting of diƓceses, and the popular electing of such as must feed and watch the flocke: and diuers other points concerning the pastorall regiment of the house of God; by Tho. Bilson Warden of Winchester Colledge. Perused and allowed publike authoritie. Bilson, Thomas, 1546 or 7-1616. 1593 (1593) STC 3065; ESTC S101959 380,429 522

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the world much more the sonnes of men to bee in subiection vnder his feete but so wonderfull was his patience and humilitie at his first appearing in our flesh that a bruised reede he would not breake smoking flaxe he would not quench yea no man heard his voyce in the streetes for he came to serue and not to be serued to suffer for the world that he might saue it and not as yet to iudge the world All power then in heauen and earth belonged vnto him euen when hee was conuersant with men but he neither declared nor chalenged so much vntill he was risen from the dead and in the dayes of his flesh as he was a Prophet to teach and instruct a Priest to cleanse and sanctifie his Church so was he a king to rule and gouerne the same saue that his kingdom was not of this world and therefore he would not raigne in his Church with the presence of his bodie as a man but with the power of his spirit as the sonne of God The kingdom then and throne which he reserued to himselfe farre passeth the directing ordering of outward things in the Church which he hath left to others To the true kingdom of Christ belong the manifold wisedome might and mercies of God shewed on vs for our saluation I meane all the Power Grace and Glorie that God vouchsafeth to bestowe on his Saints in this life and keepeth in store for them vntill the next so that whatsoeuer effects of his trueth gifts of his spirit and feeling of his promise we presently possesse or hope to haue at the handes of God through Christ our Lord it proceedeth from the strength and fauour of this king By the mightinesse of his power though he sit in heauen we receiue that continuall protection helpe and deliuerance which we find in all our troubles and aduersities And so we see his arme stretched out for the repressing scattering and reuenging of our enemies whose pride and rage he doeth so guide and order that it tendeth onely to the triall of such as feare him and the confusion of their foes From the riches of his grace come all those heauenly giftes fruits and blessings of his spirite where with the Church and euery member thereof is furnished and adorned as namely the lightning of our mindes softning of our hearts quenching of our lustes the grounding vs in faith moring vs in hope and rooting vs in charitie by the loue of his trueth obedience of his will and resemblance of his vertues that hath called vs out of darknesse into his marueilous light For what haue wee that wee haue not receiued and whence commeth euery good perfect gift but from aboue euen from him of whose fulnesse we all haue receiued From the stedfastnesse of his promise are deriued that peace ioy and comfort of the holy ghost which the godly feele within them and whereby they are maintained and preserued against the day of Christ and like wise that crowne of righteousnes and glory which he will giue to all that loue his comming when he shall appeare in the cloudes to bring eternall life and blisse with him for all the children of God Till then he must raigne to subdue his enemies which now resist and to fill vp the number of his Saints which yet are wanting That iudgement which finally rendereth to all flesh according to their workes and eternally dureth without altering or ending shall be the very close and conclusion of his kingdom which he man then deliuer vp to God his father when he hath crowned his seruants with honour and immortalitie and adiudged his enemies for their cursed sinnes to perpetuall torments This is the true kingdom of Christ and in this effectuall spirituall and celestiall maner he doeth and shall gouerne his Church here on earth and euery member thereof till all his enemies be vnder his feete After that generall iudgement sinne death and hell being vtterly conquered as in himselfe long agoe so then in all his members the administration of his kingdome shall cease all his brethren being brought vnto God but the fruition shall be euerlasting euen as the ioyes thereof are exceeding aboue all that wee can speake or thinke By the maner of his gouernment it is soone vnderstood that the prcheminence of his kingdom is personall belonging wholie and onely to the sonne of God in so much that no earthly creature may claime without apparant blasphemie to be lieutenant vnder him or communicant with him in his roiall dignitie Vnsearcheable are his iudgements and his wayes vnartaineable Who knoweth the minde of the Lord or who was his counseller His hand is not shortened that it cannot helpe The foolishnesse and weaknesse of God is wiser and stronger then men And therefore he will haue neither partner nor helper The outward face of the Church where the good and bad by the word and Sacraments are gathered and mixed together may be called the kingdom of heauen and of Christ but we must take heed that we wisely distinguish euen in the word and Sacraments the mightie power of God from the outward seruice of men The Gospel which saueth is not written with inke but with the spirite of the liuing God not in tables of stone but in the fleshlie tables of the heart The seed of the word may be carefully cast by vs but it taketh no roote nor beareth fruite vnlesse the Lord prepare the ground We are ioint workemen with God in his husbandrie and yet neither he that planteth nor he that watereth is any thing but God that giueth the increase Circumcision though it were the Seale of the righteousnesse of faith yet auailed it nothing so long as it was out ward in the flesh but that is true circumcision which is in the spirite not in the letter whose praise is of God and not of men The Preacher is the sauour of death vnto death vntill God lighten and open the heart and Christ crucified euen when hee is preached is a stumbling blocke to the Iewes and foolishnesse to the Graecians except God giue repentance and obedience of faith that they may beleeue and be saued The Sacraments are dead elements in our handes and the word a deadly sound in our mouthes without the spirite that quickneth So that in them both it is no hard matter to disseuer the outward signes from the inward graces and the corporall actions performed by men from the spirituall operations effected by the holy Ghost which properly pertaine to Christes kingdom I stand some what the longer in separating the true kingdom of Christ from the externall order and discipline of the Church for that in our times some more zealous then wise and too much deuoted to their owne fansies haue promoted their Eldership and Presbyterie to the heigth of Christes scepter and make grieuous outcries as if the sonne of God were spoiled
these the Churches had commandement if they came to receiue thē that is to beleeue them trust them as men sincerely minded sent from the Apostles yea to admit them with all gladnesse and highly to esteeme of them From their mouthes as perfectly vnderstanding the Apostles doctrine doings and meaning by reason of their continuall societie with them were other Pastours of the Church to be directed and instructed Persist thou saieth Paul to Timothie in those things which thou hast learned and are committed to thee knowing of whom thou hast learned them And what things thou hast heard of me in the presence of many witnesses the same deliuer to faithfull men that they may be able to teach others And againe I haue sent vnto you Timotheus which is my beloued sonne and faithfull in the Lord who shall put you in remembrance of my wayes as I teach euery where in euery Church These were charged by Paul to require and command the Pastours and Preachers to refraine from false doctrine and to stop their mouthes or reiect them that did otherwise to ordaine Elders according to the necessitie of the places and receiue accusations against them and sharplie openly to rebuke them if they sinned and that with all authoritie These things the Apostle earnestly requireth and before Christ and his elect Angels chargeth Timothie and Tite to doe It is then euident they might so doe for how vaine and friuolous were all those protestations made by S. Paul if Timothie and Tite had onely voyces amongst the rest and nothing to doe but as the rest How farre was the Apostle ouerseene to adiure them and not the whole Presbyterie to keepe his prescriptions inuiolable if the Elders might euery houre countermaund them and ouer-rule them by number of voyces Since then they were willed and consequently warranted by the Apostles to ordaine examine rebuke and reiect Pastors Elders as iust occasion serued equal ouer equal hath no power nor preheminence It is certaine that as wel the Apostles authorizing as their disciples authorized so to do were superiors in the Church of Christ to Pastours and Elders and likewise that they might and did perfourme and execute the Apostles rules and prescriptions without expecting the consent of Pastours or Presbyteries and the Churches of Christ knew they were bound to obey and bee subiect to them in those cases guided by the Apostles mouthes or letters as well as if the Apostles had bene present and that to resist them was to resist the order which the holy Ghost had approoued in gouerning the Church CHAP. VI. What dominion and titles Christ interdicted his Apostles THe power and prerogatiue of the Apostles aboue Euangelists Prophets Pastours Doctors and all others in the Church would the sooner bee granted were it not that certaine places in holie Scripture seeme repugnant to it as where Christ forbade his Apostles all dominion ouer their brethren and the Apostles in electing to offices assembling in councell to determine of faith imposing of handes and putting the wicked out of the Church seemed not to chalenge all to themselues but to associate others with them as if the right thereof appertained so well to the Church Presbyterie as to the Apostles which particular actions cause many men to thinke that alone the Apostles could not execute these things but iointly with others It shall therefore not be amisse to consider the places In the contention amongst the disciples for superioritie wee must obserue the occasion of their strife and the affection of the striuers The occasiō was ministred by Iames and Iohn the sonnes of Zebedee who by their mother importuned Christ that in his kingdome her sonnes might be the chiefest men about him and sit the one at his right hand the other at his left These two dreamed as the rest of the Jewes and also the other Apostles did whiles they were weake vntill they were endued with the power of the holy Ghost from heauen that the Messias should restore the temporall kingdom to Israel and sit as an earthly prince in great glorie on the throne of Dauid his father and rule all nations with a rod of iron receiuing of them subtection seruice and tribute as other Princes vsed and whatsoeuer the Prophets foretold of the wonderful plentie tranquilitie excellencie of the kingdome of Christ these two not sauouring as yet the things that were Gods nor vnderstanding any thing of the spiritual kingdom of Christ applied to fit their earthly desires hoped for great promotions by seruing their master and looked to beare rule to be chiefe men about him when he came to his glory The other ten being deceiued with the same error caried with the like hope though not expressed in so ambitious maner disdained the two brethren the neerer their master drew towards his death y ● sharper grew the strife amongst them who should be greatest chiefest about him when he came to his kingdom which they supposed should be earthly This vaine expectation and contention of his disciples the Lord vtterly suppresseth at his last supper for there the strife reuiued by assuring them that his kingdom was no worldly kingdom and therefore they might not looke to be great Commanders and Rulers ouer others for so his words import Princes of the Gentils beare rule ouer them and great States exercise authoritie on them with you it shall not be so that is you shall not haue any such rule or dominion as they haue He doeth not say you shall haue no prerogatiue nor preheminence aboue others but you shall haue no such or it shall not be so with you as it is with them By this all ciuill iurisdiction power of the sword to command compell punish by losse of life li●●●e or libertie is secluded from the ministers function and reserued to the Magistrates but Christ neuer meant by those words to barre all degrees and diuersities of gifts and administrations in his Church he rather expresseth the coutrarie euen in the same place Ye are they saieth he to his Apostles which haue continued with me in my tentations and I for recompense appoint you a kingdom as my father hath appointed to me that you may eate drinke at my table in my kingdom and sit vpon thrones iudging the twelue tribes of Israel And not depriuing them of that honour which he had or would bestow on them to be chiefe in his kingdome but instructing them how to vse it without offending God or grieuing their brethren he addeth He that is greatest amongst you let him be as the least and he that is chiefest as he that serueth In which wordes the Lord noteth amanifest distinction amongst his of some greater some lesse some chiefer some lower and chargeth his Apostles to vse that greatnesse and authoritie which they had in
places forced the Bishops to assemble but once in the yeere so the Councill of Toledo determined for Spaine This holy generall Council decreeth that the authoritie of the former Canons standing good which command Synodes to be kept twise in the yere in respect of y e length of the way and pouertie of the Churches of Spaine the Bishops shal assemble once in the yere at the place which the Metropolitane shal appoint The 2. Council of Turon tooke the same order for France in cases of necessity It hath pleased this holy council that the Metropolitane the bishops of his Prouince shal meet twise euery yere in Synode at the place which the Metropolitan by his discretiō shal chuse or if there be an ineuitable necessitie then without all excuse of persons and occasion of pretences once in the yeere shall euery man make his repaire And if any Bishop faile so to come to the Synode let him stand excommunicate by his brethren of the same Prouince vntill a greater Synode and in the meane time let no Bishop of an other Prouince presume to communicate with him There is no Christian Realme nor Age wherein the vse of Synodes hath not bene thought needfull as well vnder beleeuing magistrates for consultation and direction as vnder Infidels for the stopping of irreligious opinions withstanding wicked enterprises and procuring the peace and holynesse of the Church as appeareth by the Councils that haue bene kept in all kingdoms and countries since the Apostles times when any matter of moment came in question which are extant to this day and likewise by the Synodes that euery Nation and Prouince did yeerely celebrate according to the rules of the great Nicene and Chalcedon Councils which can not be numbred and were not recorded Neither is the continuance of Prouinciall Synodes prescribed onely by Councils the Imperiall lawes commaund the like That all the ecclesiasticall State and sacred rules may with more diligence be obserued we require saith the Emperor euery Archbishop Patriarch Metropolitane to call vnto him once or twise euery yeere the Bishops that are vnder him in the same Prouince and throughly to examine all the causes which Bishops Clerkes or Monkes haue amongst themselues and to determine them so as what so euer is trespassed by any person against the Canons may bee reformed The lawes of Charles alleaging the Councils of Antioch and Chalcedon that the Bishops of euery Prouince with their Metropolitane should assemble in Councill twise in the yeere for the causes of the Church commaund that course to be continued and twise euery yeere Synodes to be assembled And vnlesse you giue the Pastor and Presbyters of euery parish full and free power to professe what religiō they best like to offer what wrongs they will to vse what impietie and tyrannie they themselues list without any restraint or redresse which were an heathenish if not an hellish confusiō you must where there is no christian magistrate as oftentimes in the Church of Christ there hath bene and may be none yeeld that libertie to the Church of Christ which euerie humane societie hath by the principles of nature to wit that the whole may guide each part and the greater number ouer-rule the lesser which without assembling in Synode can not be done We neuer meant to denie the authoritie or vse of lawfull Synodes we confesse they are a sure remedy against all confusion but this we dislike that you giue the power to cal Synodes from the Magistrate to the Metropolitane thereby maintaining a needelesse difference amongst Bishops and suffer none but such as you terme Bishops to haue voyces in Councils whereas euerie Pastour and Preacher hath as good right to sit there and by consent and subscription to determine as they haue What right wee yeelde to Christian Magistrates to call Synodes within their Territories shall soone appeare in the meane time you must tell vs who called Synodes in the Primitiue Church before Princes fauoured Christian Religion was it done by Magistrates who then were Infidels or by Metropolitanes And when Princes protected the truth did they moderate prouinciall Councils by their substitutes or was that charge committed to the Bishop of the chiefe and mother Church and Citie in euerie prouince you challenge to bee men of learning and reading speake of your credites who called in ancient times prouinciall Synodes or at any time who moderated them besides Metropolitanes If your Presbyteries by Gods essential and perpetual ordinance must haue a President to rule their actions for auoyding of confusion howe can Synodes be called gouerned without one to prescribe the time and place when and where the Pastours shall meete and when they are met to guide and moderate their assemblies perceiue you not that men liuing in diuers cities and countries and assembling but seldome haue more neede of some chiefe to call them together then those that liue in one place and euery day meete And if confusion and disorder in Presbyteries be pernicious to the Church is it not far more dangerous in Synodes Wherefore you must either cleane reiect Synodes and so make the Presbyters of eache parish supreme and soueraigne Iudges of all Ecclesiasticall matters or if you receiue Synodes you must withall admit some both to conuocate and moderate their meetings The Magistrate may callthem together and themselues when they are assembled may choose a director guider of their actions But when the Magistrate doeth not regard but rather afflict the Church as in times of infidelitie and heresie who shall then assemble the Pastours of any prouince to deliverate and determine matters of doubt or danger Shall error and iniurie ouerwhelme the church of God without any publike remonstrance or refusance In questions of faith cases of doubt matters of faction offers of wrong breach of all order and equitie shall eche place and Presbyterie be free to teach and doe what they please without depending on or so much as cōferring with the rest of their brethren Cal you that the discipline of Christes Church and not rather the dissolution of all peace and subuersion of all trueth in the house of God I thinke you be not so farre besides your selues that you striue for this pestilent kinde of anarchie to be brought into the worlde our age is giddie enough without this frensie to put them forward Howbeit we seeke not what newe course you can deuise after fifteene hundred yeeres to gouerne the Church but what meanes the ancient and Primitiue Church of Christ had before Princes embraced the trueth to assemble Synodes and pacifie controuersies as well touching religion as Ecclesiasticall regiment and if in the Church stories you finde any other besides Metropolicanes that called and gouerned Prouinciall Councils name the men and note the places and we yeeld you the prize Metropolitanes were first established if not deuised by the Council of Nice before that we reade nothing of any Metropolitane
THE PERPETVAL GOVERNEMENT OF CHRISTES CHVRCH Wherein are handled The fatherly superioritie which God first established in the Patriarkes for the guiding of his Church and after continued in the Tribe of Leui and the Prophetes and lastlie confirmed in the New Testament to the Apostles and their successours As also the points in question at this day Touching the Iewish Synedrion the true kingdome of Christ the Apostles commission the Laie Presbyterie the Distinction of Bishops from Presbyters and their succession from the Apostles times and hands the calling and moderating of Prouinciall Synodes by Primates and Metropolitanes the allotting of Dioeceses and the Popular electing of such as must feed and watch the flocke And diuers other points concerning the Pastorall regiment of the house of God By THO. BILSON Warden of Winchester Colledge Perused and allowed by publike authoritie 1. Cor. 14. Came the word of God first from you or did it spread to you alone Iren lib. 3. ca. 3. We can reckon those that were ordained Bishops by the Apostles in the Churches and their successours to this present which neuer taught nor knew any such thing as these dreame Imprinted at London by the Deputies of CHRISTOPHER BARKER Printer to the Queenes most excellent Maiestie An. Dom. 1593. TO THE CHRISTIAN READER IHaue bene very vnwilling good Christian Reader to enter into these controuersies of Discipline that haue now some space troubled the Church of England I remembred the wordes of Abraham to Lot Let there I pray thee be no strife betwixt thee and me nor betwixt my men and thine for we be brethren and did thereby learne that all strife betwixt brethren was vnnaturall I could not forget the saying of our Sauiour Peace I leaue with you my peace I giue you and so collected how carefull we should be to keepe the vnitie of the spirite in the band of peace Prophane writers could tell me by concord the weakest things growe strong by discord the mightiest states are ouerthrowen and that made me loath to increase or nourish the dislikes and quarels that haue lately fallen out in this Realme betwixt the Professours and Teachers of one and the same Religion yet when I sawe the peace of Gods Church violated by the sharpnesse of some mens humours and their tongues so intemperate that they could not bee discerned from open enemies I thought as in a common danger not to sit looking till all were on fire but rather by all meanes to trie what kind of liquor would restinguish this flame Another reason leading mee to this enterprise was the discharge of my duetie to God and her Maiestie for finding that some men broched their disciplinarie deuises vnder the title of Gods eternall trueth and professed they could no more forsake the defence thereofthen of the Christian faith and others defaced and reproched the gouernement of the Church heere receiued and established as vnlawfull irreligious and Antichristian for what lees are so sower that some hedge wines wil not yeelde I was mooued in conscience not to suffer the sacred Scriptures to be so violently arrested and ouer-ruled by the summons and censures of their newe Consistories as also to cleere this state of that iniurious slander as if not knowing or neglecting the manifest voyce of Christes spirite we had entertained and preferred the dregges of Antichrists pride and tyrannie These causes of great and good regard led mee to examine the chiefe groundes of both Disciplines theirs and ours and to peruse the proofes and authorities of either parte that by comparing it might appeare which side came neerest to the synce●itie of the Scriptures and societie of the auncient and vncorrupte Church of Christ. The which wholie to propose by way of Preface woulde bee exceeding tedious shortely to capitulate that the Reader may knowe what to looke for will not altogether bee superfluous The maine supportes of their newe deuised Discipline are the generall equalitie of all Pastours and Teachers and the ioyning of Lay Elders with them to make vp the Presbyterie that shall gouerne the Church On this foundation they build the power of their Consistorie that must admonish and punish all offences heare and determine all doubts appease and ende all strifes that anie waie touch the state and welfare of the Church Against these false groundes I shewe the Church of God from Adam to Moses from Moses to Christ and so downeward vnder Patriarkes Prophetes and Apostles hath beene alwayes gouerned by an inequalitie and superioritie of Pastours and Teachers amongst themselues and somuch the very name and nature of gouernement do inforce for if amongst equals none may chalenge to rule the rest there must of necessitie be superiours before there can bee Gouernours It was therefore a ridiculous ouersight in our new platfourmers to settle an ecclesiasticall gouernment amongst the Pastours and Teachers of the Church and yet to banish all superioritie from them Some finding that absurditie and perceiuing confusion of force must follow where all are equall and no Gouernour endured confesse it to bee an essentiall and perpetuall part of Gods ordinance for each Presbyterie to haue a chiefe amongst them and yet least they should seeme to agnise or admit the auncient and approued maner of the Primitiue Church retained amongst vs which is to appoint a fitte man to gouerne each Dioecese they haue framed a Running regencie that shall goe round to all the Presbyters of each place by course and dure for a weeke or fome such space for the deuise is so newe that they are not yet resolued what time this changeable superioritie shall continue With this conceite they maruelouslie please themselues in so much that they pronounce this onely to be Gods institution and this ouerseer or Bishop to be Apostolike all others they reiect as humane that is as inuented and established by man against the first and authentike order of the holie Ghost Thus farre wee ioyne that to preuent dissention and auoid confusion there must needes euen by Gods ordinaunce bee a President or Ruler of euerie Presbyterie which conclusion because it is warranted by the groundes of nature reason and trueth and hath the example of the Church of God before vnder and after the Lawe to confirme it wee accept as irrefutable and laie it as the ground-worke of all that ensueth But whether this Presidentship did in the Apostles times and by their appointment goe round by course to all the Pastours and Teachers of euerie Presbyterie or were by election committed to one chosen as the fittest to supplie that place so long as hee discharged his duetie without blame that is a maine point in question betwixt vs. Into which I may not enter vntill we haue seene what the Apostolike Presbyteries were and of what persons they did consist at the first erecting of the Church Certaine late writers men otherwise learned and wise greatlie misliking in the gouernement of the Church the Romish kind of Monarchie and on the
of the Romane Soueraigntie If thy brother trespasse thee tell him priuately of the wrong offered thee If hee regarde not thy voyce take one or two with thee that may bee men indifferent betwixt you This the rule of charitie requireth in secret and friendly manner yea by the mediation of wel-willers and neighbours to compose all priuate quarrels as much as in vs lieth If this take not place tel it vnto the Church that is vnto the assemblie and gouernours that are in thy Citie For euery Citie by Gods Lawe was to haue her Iudges and Magistrates there to iudge the people with righteous iudgement And their manner was to sit in the gates of their cities whither the whole multitude did assemble vnto thē not onely to heare and see what they did but in weightie matters to ioyne with them and giue their consents Our Sauiour then meaneth that if charitable and brotherly admonitions be neglected they should seeke their remedie from the Iudges and Elders of their Cities as by Gods law the Iewes were directed and permitted to do Tell it vnto the Church then is as much as tel it not vnto the Church of Christ which as yet was not seuered from the Iewes nor assembled together and therefore had then neither places nor persons specified or authorized for that purpose but vnto that Councel of Magistrates which God by Moses commanded to haue the hearing and ending of those causes For Christ by this precept doth not establish new Iudges nor erect new Consistories but referreth the people to Gods ordināce expressed in the law of Moses and already receiued and vsed in that common wealth thereby meaning that if the doers of wrong to their brethren would not be reformed by priuat and friendly admonition intercession the parties grieued might with good conscience aske the aid and assistance of those Magistrates whom God had appointed ouer them to compell and force the trespassers to surcease their iniurious dealings If it seeme strange to any man that the word Ecclesia should be taken heere not for the Church of Christ as we commonly vse it but for the assemblie of any place or citie where the Rulers and Commons be they Christiās or Infidels are gathered together to consult or determine as well of ciuil causes as of religion besides that the Septuagint do often vse the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for any kind of meeting as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I haue hated the assemblie of the wicked and againe I was almost ouerwhelmed with al euil 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the middes of the Church Synagogue S. Luke in the 19. of the Acts vseth the word in that sort thrise in one chapter Beza a man of great learning and one whome none can mistrust as not addicted enough vnto discipline writing on this place saith Wee must note they are fouly deceiued which would conclude out of this place that the hearing of al matters must be referred to the assembly of the whole multitude The name of the Church say they is neuer otherwise vsed which euen out of this place is proued to be false For surely it appeareth that this is spoken as it were of the Iewes by that which is added Let him be to thee as an Ethnicke and Publicane Now that iudgements amongst the Iewes were exercised by the Elders and that their manner was not euer to assemble the whole multitude all the writers of those matters do witnes And truely vnlesse Christ had fitted all this speach vnto the vse that was in his time who coulde haue vnderstoode him what hee saide It is lastly to bee obserued that in this one place of all the new Testament the name of the Church is spoken of the Iewes The words which followe if he heare not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnike and Publicane must import either the punishing his obstinacie which obeyed not the Iudgement of the Rulers and Magistrates that were of the Iewes or a further pursuing him before others y ● had more power to represse such insolencie If they expresse any punishment for his wilfulnes that must proceed either publikely frō the Iudges or priuately frō the plaintife The punishment of him y ● disobeied the Magistrate by Gods Law was death that Christ would not alter For he came not to change the ciuil gouernement or qualifie the iudicall punishments of Moses Law but to leade them the way to the celestiall and eternall kingdome of God The chiefe Rulers and Gouernours of the Iewes being his capitall aduersaries and not acknowledging his authoritie would neuer respect his counsell nor commandement The wordes themselues haue reference to a particular person Let him be to thee as an Ethnike and Publicane Christ therefore in these words decreed no publike punishment As for priuate reuenge he was farre from liking it and further from teaching it False Prophets we must beware and with notorious wicked persons we must not keepe companie but priuate iniuries we must rather suffer with patience then resist with violence or requite with disdaine Resist not euill saieth Christ to all his disciples but whosoeeer shall smite thee on the right cheeke turne to him the other also and if any will sue thee at the law to take away thy coate let him haue thy cloake also Then may wee not reiect detest our brother that doth vs wrong as the Iewes did an Ethnike and Publicane The mind that must quietly beare wrong once twise and oftner if neede be must not abhorre and shunne the person of his brother that wrongeth him as prophane It resteth then that our Sauior in these words did permit the partie oppressed to seeke further remedie when neither charitie nor equitie could preuaile with the oppressour And that was to doe as they did to strangers and Publicanes which was to conuent him before y ● Roman Magistrate who had power to force him that did wrong to abide the iudgement that shoulde be giuen And so I suppose y e words may be taken Let him be to thee as an Ethnike and Publicane that is pursue him in those Courts where thou wouldest a Pagan and Publicane that should do thee wrong If any man like not to vnderstand those words of a further pursute before the Magistrate he may referre them to a priuate forsaking of all companie with the wrong-doer vntill he reforme himselfe Let him be to thee as an Ethnicke and Publicane that is shunne such wilfull oppressours as much as thou doest Pagans and Publicanes but without bitternes of minde or breach of patience And so S. Augustine sometimes expoundeth them If hee heare not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnike Publicane that is account him no longer in the number of thy brethren yet neglect not his saluation So the Lord warneth when he by and by addeth Verely I say vnto you whatsoeuer you binde on earth shall be bound in heauen
such sort that thereby they should serue euen the meanest of their brethren to doe them good and become all things to all men that they might winne some This he caught them that very time not in wordes onely but by deeds also for hauing washed their feete and wiped them drte he saieth vnto them Vnderstand you what I haue done to you you call me Master and Lord and you say well for I am so Then if I your Lord and Master haue washed your feete you ought to wash one an others feete I haue giuen you an example that as I haue done to you you should also doe the liked They should be so farre from striuing who should be greatest that euen the greatest and chiefest should striue to preuent the lowest and meanest with honour and seruice after the example of their Master These texts then con●●●●e two speciall doctrines vnto vs. The 〈◊〉 that Apostles and Preachers may not chalenge by vertue of their office any compulsiue dominion or violent iurisdiction ouer their brethren but leaue that to Princes The next the greater our calling is in Christes Church the readier we should te to make our selues euen with those of the lowest degree to gaine them thereby but that Christ intended in those places to giue all sortes of Minister and helpers in his Church equall power and authoritie with his Apostles I am not perswaded and that for these causes What Christ had alreadie giuen or after meant to giue to his Apostles he would neuer crosse with any speach of his The sonne of God cannot repent his fact or alter his mind but the same kingdome that was appointed to him he appointed to them and as his father sent him so sent he them into all the world with a larger warrant from his mouth and greater power and wisedome of his holy spirit to teach all nations what he commanded them and to open all the counsell of God vnto them then was giuen to other teachers and helpers in the Church He therefore neuer recalled nor rebated any part of their Apostolike preh●●nnence aboue others but onely taught them to vse it to Gods glory and the edifying of his Church Againe what Christ had prohibited no Apostle guided by his spirite would euer haue vsed or chalenged but Paul in his writings hath chalengeth and vseth an Apostolicall power and preheminence aboue other Pastours and Teachers in the Church as is alreadie declared It was therefore neuer intended by our Sauiour to make all others equall with his Apostles in the direction and regiment of his Church Lastly if those places did conclude any thing for an equalitie that must bee referred to the Apostles amongst themselues to whom Christ gaue equall power and honour as Cyprian noteth of them The Apostles were endued with like fellowship of honour and power And Ierome All the Apostles receiued the keies of the kingdome of heauen and the strength of the Church is equally grounded on them But Paul speaking of himselfe saieth not that wee haue dominion ouer your fayth but are helpers of your ioy and Peter admonisheth all Pastours to feede the flocke of God not as if they were lordes ouer Christes inheritance but as examples to the flocke Qui vocatur ad Episcopatum faieth Origene non ad Principatum vocatur sedad seruitutem totius Ecclesiae Hee that is called to bee a Bishop is called not to the soueraigntie but to the seruice of the whole Church Episcopi sacerdotes se esse nouerinst non Dominos saieth Ierome Let the Bishops vnderstand they are Priestes not Lordes or Masters And Bernard Forma Apostolica haec est Dominatio interdioitur indicitur ministratio The paterne for the Apostles themselues is this dominion is interdicted a ministration is enit●ned These and such like speaches in the Scriptures and fathers doe neither prooue all ministers to haue equall power and honour with the Apostles nor impugne the regiment which the Pastours haue ouer their flocks but as wee 〈◊〉 before by the wordes of our Sauiour they distinguish betweene pastorall and princely regiment and direct both Apostles and Pastours how they shall gouerne The thing so much prohibited by Christ and his Apostles whose wordes the auncient fathers doe follow is that Preachers and Pastours should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 behaue or thinke themselues to be lords and masters ouer their brethren What word is opposed to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Scriptures and wherein consisteth the relation betwixt them if we call to mind we shall not be deceiued in the right sense of these wordes Christ saieth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The seruant is not aboue his lord or Master and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 no seruant can serue two masters The power of lordes masters ouer their seruants is likewise expressed by our Sauiour The seruant that knoweth his masters will and doeth not according to his will shall bee beaten with many stripes And againe I say to my seruant doe this and he doeth it Yee seruants faieth Paul obey the masters of your flesh in all things for know yee not that his seruaunts you are whom you obey whereby as by infinite other places it is euident that opposite to lord and master are neither children nor brethren but seruants and he is a seruant that is vnder the yoke and bound to obey his masters will euen as he is a lord or master that may commaund his seruant to execute his will or thereto compell him with stripes for that is the right of a lord and master to commaund and punish his seruant that disobeieth What maruell then if Christ forbade his Apostles to bee lordes and masters ouer their brethren that is to commaund them and compell them a● their vassals since the beleeuers are no servaunts but brethren and the Pastours no lordes ouer Gods inheritance but fathers vnto the faithfull Whereby the honour 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 of Christes flocke is not diminished but augmented and the people not licenced the sooner to 〈◊〉 the● but thereby required the rather to regard them for 〈…〉 honour due to master or father and who loueth most a seruant or a sonne Amare filiorum timere seruorum est A sonne doeth loue a seruant doeth feare which God expresseth by his Prophet when he ●aith If I be a father where is mine honour If I be a Master where is my feare Wherefore to increase the loue of his sheepe towards their shepeheards Christ would not haue his Apostles to be feared as masters but to be honoured as fathers and consequently Pastours not to force but to feede not to chase but to lead the flocke committed to their charge neither toughly to intreat them as seruants but gently to perswade them as coheires of the same kingdome If at any time they require and commaund they doe it in Gods name as messengers sent to declare his will who
Christes resurrection without either Presbyterie or people to concurre with them O you blessed and holie men saith Hilarie speaking of the Apostles that for the desert of your faith gate the keyes of the kingdome of heauen and obtained right to binde and loose in heauen and earth I suppose then it is not much to be contradicted that the Apostles had from their master a larger commission fuller instruction higher power and greater gifts then the rest of the Doctours Pastours Prophets and Euangelist in the Church of Christ and that the Churches in their time were not gouerned by the voyces and consents of the greater part concurring with them before any thing could be done but by their precepts and rules deliuered by speach or expressed by writing which the faithfull in euery place as well Pastors as people with all readinesse obeyed And that in appointing and ordeyning Pastors and Elders as likewise in reteyning sinnes and binding offenders by deliuering them vnto Satan or reiecting them from the felowship of Saints they needed not the helpe or agreement of the people or Presbyterie but had power sufficient with imposing their handes as the Spirite directed to make Prophets and Pastors by giuing them the gifts of the holy Ghost needefull for their seuerall callings and by the same power coulde yeeld the bodies of such as sinned and repented not to be punished and afflicted by Satan or remooue them from the Communion of Christes Church and exclude them from the kingdome of heauen as their wickednes or wilfulnes deserued This superioritie they reteined whiles they liued so moderating their power that they sought rather to winne the euill disposed with lenitie then represse them with authoritie saue when the wicked might no longer be endured lest others should be iufected and vsing such meekenes and mildnes towards al that no schisme disordered the Church by their rigour nor soule perished by their default labouring more to profit many with their paines then to preferre themselues before any by their priuiledge and vtterly forgetting their owne dignitie whiles they serued and aduanced Christes glory I obserue as well their patience as their preeminence lest any man should thinke I goe about to make them Princes in the Church of Christ to commaund and punish at their pleasures and not rather faithfull Stewards and careful Shepheards to feede and guide the Church committed to their charges CHAP. IX What parts of the Apostles power and charge were to remaine in the Church after their decease and to whom they were committed IT will happely be graunted the Apostles had their prerogatiue and preeminence aboue others in the Church of Christ but that limitted to their persons and during for their liues and therfore no reason can be made from their superioritie to force the like to be receiued and established in the Church of Christ for all ages and places since their office and function are long since ceased and no like power reserued to their successours after them I doe not denie but many things in the Apostles were personall giuen them by Gods wisedome for the first spreading of the fayth and planting of the Churches amongst Jewes and Gentiles that all nations might be conuerted vnto Christ by the sight of their miracles and directed by the trueth of their doctrine yet that all their gifts ended with their liues and no part of their charge and power remained to their after-commers may neither be confessed by vs nor affirnted by any vnlesse we meane wholy to subuert the church of Christ. To be called by Christes owne mouth and sent into all nations to be furnished with the infallible assurance of his trueth and visible assistance of his spirit not onely to speake with tongues cure diseases worke miracles know secretes and vnderstand all wisedom but to giue the holy Ghost to others that they might doe the like these things I say were needfull at the first preaching of the Gospell to conuert infidels that neuer heard of Christ before to confirme the beleeuers compassed with diuers temptations and to store the whole world then presently with meete Pastours and Teachers but to maintaine the Church once setled and faith once preached there is no cause why either the immediate vocation or generall commission or mightie operation and sudden inspirations of the Apostles should alwayes endure The Scriptures once written suffice all ages for instruction the miracles then done are for euer a most euident confirmation of their doctrine the authoritie of their first calling liueth yet in their succession and time and trauell ioyned with Gods graces bring Pastours at this present to perfection yet the Apostles charge to teach baptize and administer the Lordes Supper to bind and loose sinnes in heauen and in earth to impose hands for the ordaining of Pastours and Elders these partes of the Apostolike function and charge are not decaied and cannot bee wanted in the Church of God There must either be no church or els these must remaine for without these no church can continue The Gospell must be preached the Sacraments must be frequented for which purposes some must bee taken to the publike seruice and ministerie of the Church for how shall they inuocate in whom they haue not beleeued or how shall they beleeue in him of whome they haue not heard or how shall they heare without a Preacher and how shall they preach except they bee sent without sending there can bee no preaching without preaching the word there is no ordinarie meanes for faith and without faith there is no Church Neither onely the lacke of the word and Sacraments but the prophanation and abuse of either how greatly doethit endanger the state and welfare of the whole Church of Christ yea the casting of holy things vnto dogges and of pearles before swine how dreadfull a iudgement doeth it procure as well to the consenters as presumers A little leauen so wreth the whole masse So that power to send labourers into Gods haruest and to separate prophane persons for de●iling the mysteries and assemblies of the faythfull must be retained and vsed in the Church of Christ vnlesse we will turne the house of God into a denne of theeues and make the Temple a cage for vncleane and hatefull birdes As the things be needfull in the Church of Christ so the persons to whom they were first committed cannot bee doubted Goe teach all Nations baptizing them sayd our Sauiour to the eleuen in mount Oliuet whenhe ascended Doe this in remembrance of mee sayd hee to the twelue that sate at supper with him After his resurrection when hee appeared to the eleuen sitting together hee sayd As my father sent me so send I you Receiue yee the holy Ghost whose sinnes yee remit they are remitted whose sinnes yee retaine they are retained for though the Lord before his death promised the keyes of the kingdome of heauen vnto Peter and as then sayde nothing vnto the
Bishop must bee vnreprooueable as Gods Steward holding fast the faithfull worde of doctrine that hee may be able to exhorte with founde doctrine and conuince the goinesayers No Teachers no Elders by this rule For they were Gods Stewards to exhort and conuince with found doctrine before they tooke that name Elders might not be appointed in any Citie but so qualified as is heere prescribed there was no place then in Creete for your newe founde Elders And as for Lay Gouernours of the Apostolike Church to bee mentioned by Saint Paul in the 1. to the Corinthians and twelfth Chapter the ancient and learned Fathers are further from admitting any such then I am howsoeuer our late writers bee lighted on them Nazianzene expounding the wordes of Saint Paul which our men imagine concerne Lay Gouernours sayth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Gouernements that is ouer-ruling the flesh Chrysostome maketh Helpes and Gouernements all one and saith It is a great blessing of God in matters of the Spirite to haue an helper and exhorter Ambrose saieth In the fift place is giuen the gift of vnderstanding For they bee Gouernours that with spirituall raines doe guide men Theophilact referreth it to the Deacons Helpes gouernements that is to receiue the sicke and guide and dispence the goodes of our brethren Then neither doe the Scriptures any where mention Lay Presbyters nor the Fathers expounding the places that are brought for them did euer giue so much as an inkeling of any such persons The words of Paul to Timothie be not only cleared from them by diuers sound interpretations but produced against them For they admit no Elders but such as were for their worke sake maintained at the costes of the Church and so were neuer anie Lay Presbyters The two other places name Rulers and Gouernours but expresse neyther what persons or thinges they gouerned neyther who they were that did gouerne whether Lay men or Pastours Lay men had Christian gouernements but ouer their families ouer the Church and house of God none had in the Apostles daies that wee reade saue Pastors and Teachers I meane such as did feede and watch the flocke committed to their charge And yet if wee shoulde graunt that in the Apostles time for want of a Magistrate to vpholde the discipline of the Church and punish the disorders and offences of loose brethren there were certaine graue and wise Elders ioyned with the Prophets and Pastours to admonish the vnrulie examine the guiltie and exclude infamous and scandalous persons from the common societie of Christians Is it anie consequent the like must bee vsed with vs in a Christian kingdome vnder a beleeuing Prince The Apostolike Churches were planted in populous Cities where they coulde not lacke meete men to sustaine that charge ours are dispersed in rurall Hamlets where there can bee no hope to finde so many fitte Gouernours as shall bee requisite To the first Churches came none but such as were willing and zealous without all compulsion to ours come all forces Atheistes Hypocrites and howe manie rather forced by Lawe then ledde with deuotion yea woulde God it did not often so fall out that in manie places the richer and wealthier men eyther regarde no Religion or secretely leane to the woorst Euerie Church with them had manie Prophetes Pastours and Teachers the number and neede of the people and tyme so requiring so that their Presbyteries might bee indifferently weighed without ouerbearing either side Wee haue but one in eche Parish and to exact maintenaunce for moe at the peoples handes in euerie Uillage woulde breede that sore which no playster would heale To giue that one a negatiue voyce in all thinges against the Laie Elders were to fill the whole Realme with infinite contentions and questions To giue him no voyce but as one amongest the rest is to shake the Church in sunder with euerie faction and fansie of the multitude Lastly those Churches vnder persecution had none that coulde iustly chalenge to rule the rest ours hath a lawfull Monarch professing the faith to whome by Gods Lawe the gouernement of all crimes and causes Ecclesiasticall doeth rightly belong and therefore the priuate and popular regiment of the afflicted Churches must cease since God hath blessed this realme with a publike peaceable and princely gouernement The greater and stronger power doeth alwayes determine and frustrate the lesser and weaker in the same kinde What neede we priuate men to punish vices when we haue princes to doe it What neede wee Suffrages of Lay Elders to reforme disorders and abuses in Pastors when wee haue open and knowen lawes to worke the same effect with more force and better speede In popular states and persecuted Churches some pretence may be made for that kinde of discipline In christian kingdomes I see neither neede nor vse of Lay Elders Howbeit for my part I doe not beleeue that Lay Elders were vsed in the Apostls times to gouerne the Church With imposition of hands remission of sinnes distribution of Sacraments I am right assured no iust proofe can be made they did or should intermeddle yea the ouersight of those things could not belong whiles the Apostles liued to Lay men and after their deaths the Churches planted by them and ages succeeding them neuer vsed nor acknowledged any Lay Elders Which is to me an inuincible demonstration that the Apostles left them none For would all the Churches in the worlde with one consent immediatly vpon the Apostles deaths reiect that fourme of gouerning the Church by Lay Elders which was setled and approoued by the Apostles and embrace a new and strange kinde of gouernement without precept or precedent for their so doing Howe others can perswade themselues that the whole Church of Christ felt so generally and presently to a wilfull Apostacie I knowe not for myselfe I confesse I had rather forsake the deuise and conceit of some late Writers were they in number moe then they are before I will proclaime so many Apostolike men and ancient and learned fathers to be manifest despisers of the Apostolike discipline and voluntarie supporters if not inuentors of Antichrists pride and tyrannie Wherefore if they shew me Lay Elders vniuersally receiued for gouernours in the Churches and ages next folowing the Apostles I wil agnise they came from the Apostles if there were no such after the Apostles I cannot beleeue they were in the Apostles times CHAP. XI What Presbyterie the primitiue Churches and Catholike fathers did acknowledge and whether Lay Elders were any part thereof or no. MAny men thinke and write that the first Churches and fathers after the Apostles retained and vsed Lay Elders for Gouernors and so witnes as they say obscurely Ignatius Tertullian Cyprian Augustine more cleerely Ambrose Hierome Possidonius and the Canon law and therefore I doe not well in their opinions to pretend the authoritie of Christes Church against them If all these Fathers or any of them did clearely mention or witnesse Lay Elders
to rule the Church in common I am so farre from reiecting or declining Ieromes authoritie in this point though he seeme very fauourable to you that if you will stand to his censure I will doe the like but before wee wade deeper let vs laie foorth the state of the question that we may thereby perceiue what the sacred Scriptures and auncient Fathers doe confesse or confute CHAP. XII To whom the Apostles departing or dying left the gouernement of the Church whether equally to all Presbyters or chieflie to some and how farre the conceites of late writers herein varie from the auncient Fathers whose wordes they pretend to follow THat order and discipline are not onely profitefull but also needfull in the Church of God and as well amongst Pastours and Teachers as learners and hearers might many wayes be confirmed if it were not on all sides concorded They that most dissent in the kind of gouernement doe first agree on the vse of gouernment they would els not striue for that which might still be wanted and neuer missed in the Church of Christ. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Order saieth Nazianzene is the mother and preseruer of all things The vtilitie and necessitie whereof as in all states and creatures so specially in the Church of God and in the Pastours and Gouernors thereof hee that liketh at large to examine let him read Nazianzens oration plentifully and purposely written of that Argument Onely I aduise with him that vnder a shew of religion and zeale No man bee wiser then hee should no man vprighter then the lawe clearer then the light straighter then the rule nor forwarder then the commandement If order and discipline be necessarie for all persons and ages in the Church of Christ the gouermnent of the Church must not cease with the Apostles but dure as long as the Church continueth that is to the worlds ende and consequently so much of the Apostolike power as is requisite for the perpetuall regiment of the Church must remaine to those that from time to time supplie the Apostles charge and succeed in the Apostles roomes Afore we enter to intreat of the first institution of Bishops we must carefully distinguish these there points The things which must be deriued from the Apostles to their helpers and successours in all Ages and Churches the persons to whom they were committed and the times when If we wander in these wee shall neuer get any certaine resolution of the matter in question What the things are which must abide for euer in the Church I shewed before it shall suffise now to rehearse them namelie power to preach the word and administer the Sacraments the right vse of the keies and imposition of hands for the placing of fit men to vndertake the cure of soules and remoouing of vnfaithfull and vnfit men from infecting and offending the Church These must not faile in the Church so long as there is a Church for the want of any one of them is the confusion if not subuersion of the Church These foure partes in this chapter for breuities sake I often reduce to two branches which are Doctrine and Discipline Comprising in doctrine the deuiding of the word and dispensing of the Sacraments and referring the rest I meane the publike vse of the keies and imposition of hands to the discipline or regiment of the Church The parties to whom these ecclesiasticall duties might possiblie be committed wee then also numbred and found foure sortes of them the people the laie Elders the Presbyters the Bishops The people must needs be excluded from intermedling with Pastorall duties for if all should be Teachers who should be hearers if there were none but shepeheards what should become of the flocke Hee that hath put a difference betwixt the Stewards and the household the labourers and the haruest the watchmen and the Citizens the builders and the stones the Sower and the ground the husbandmen and the tillage the leaders and the folowers euen the same Lord hath prohibited these degrees to bee confounded which he hath distinguished Are all Apostles are all Prophets are all teachers I thinke not If the whole bodie were the eie where were the hearing if the whole were hearing where were the smelling Intrus●●n vpon men is iniurious vpon God is sacrilegious The examples of Korah whome the earth swalowed of Vzzah ●●ri●en to death and Vzziah plagued with the leprosie for affecting and inuading the Priests office are well knowen Chrysostome saieth of the last Hee entered the Temple to vsurpe the Priesthood and hee lost his kingdome He entred to become more ●ener able and hee became more execrable So euill a thing it is not to abide within the boundes that God hath appointed vs either of honour or knowledge What I say of the people I say likewise of laie Elders for so much as they are but a part of the people and looke what the whole is prohibited euery part is interdicted If Laie men may intermeddle with ecclesiasticall functions why not the people If the people may not why should the Elders since both are Laie If they renounce the execution and chalenge the superuision of ecclesiasticall dueties they flie from one Rocke and fall on another they cleare themselues from the worde and entangle themselues with the sword Gouernours of the Church that bee neither ministers nor Magistrates I yet conceiue none if any mans skill bee so good that hee can describe vs a gouernement betwixt both that shall wrong neither I would gladly giue him audience Howbeit wee need not trouble our heads with the maner of gouernement that laie Elders must haue distinct from the Priestes and Princes calling before we haue better proofe for the persons that shall enioy this priuiledge When you make it appeare there were such officers in the Church of Christ wee will then intreat you to bound out their office by the word of God or writings of the auncient fathers till then wee stand resolued there were neuer such Gouernours nor gouernement established by the Apostles nor acknowledged by their after-commers in Christes Church The places pretended both in Scriptures and Fathers for such Elders wee haue leasurablie perused and examined and wee finde not so much as the footesteps of any Laie Elders Presbyters we find and Rulers but no reason to leade they were laie Presbyters or Rulers Against thē we find all the Christian ancient Councils lawes and fathers y t euer mentioned any Presbyters If I shuffle any writers wordes or dazel the Readers eies shew me the place I will yeeld to mine errour In the meane time I take him to witnesse that is Iudge of all secrets I endeuoured to walke soundly and simplie without swaying or leaning to either side more then the euidence of the trueth enforced me Two sortes are left for I still professe that laie Elders were neuer admitted to meddle with any such