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A68098 A pleasant dialogue, betweene a souldior of Barwicke, and an English chaplaine Wherein are largely handled & laide open, such reasons as are brought in for maintenaunce of popishe traditions in our Eng. church. Also is collected, as in a short table, 120. particular corruptions yet remaining in our saide church, with sundrie other matters, necessary to be knowen of all persons. Togither with a letter of the same author, placed before this booke, in vvay of a preface. Gilby, Anthony, ca. 1510-1585. 1581 (1581) STC 11888; ESTC S109674 76,666 200

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that wee maye not alwayes vse our libertie to the extremitie but muste doe some thinges for feare to offende other mens consciences which seemeth good policie Mil. It is true the holy Apostle Paule sayth in this maner Whatsoeuer is set before you eate asking no question for conscience sake But if any man say vnto you this is offered to idols eate it not because of him that shewed it and for the consciēce sake the conscience I say not thine but of the other These words make cleane against you for first he telleth not as you aleadge what we must doe but what we must leaue vndone for other mens conscience For he teacheth that we may not vse these Idolothites that is thinges belonging to the Idols to offend any mans conscience but rather abstaine from such libertie and neither eate flesh nor do any thing that may offend our brother Now marke this matter that we haue in hand These popish geare were Idolothites thinges belonging to Idols in the wearing whereof many good mens consciences are offended and they openly tell you that they were thinges wherein the Idols were serued and that they are greeued to see you weare such liueries of Antichriste so they are offended in charitie and can not vse you as Brethren as they were wonte to doe Again the papistes and the weaker sort that haue not bin fullie taught doe still thinke and say and teache others that these are the things that belonged to their Masse and to other popish idolatrie and therefore al their poperie was not euill seeing Christes Ministers and Sacraments cannot be without them Thus their weake consciences are offended in fayth and thinke their olde idolatrie good and therefore cannot repent of it Wherefore for the consciences of others if there were no cause else you should abstain frō this libertie that you chalendge to your selues in these idolatrous garments like as Paule affirmeth that he woulde neuer eate flesh rather than he should be thoughte willingly and wittingly being once warned to eate any meate dedicate to Idols Bern. But hereby thou doest to much restraine our christian liberty seeing our conscience is free Mil. Although I might answere thee w t the saying of Ambrose It is lawful for thee with safe cōsciēce thou mayst haue a wife yet if she play y e harlot she is to be reiected and cast away from thee Euen so the meate saith he if it be offered to an Idoll must be spit out This sentence of Ambrose agreeth with the decree of the Apostles commaunding to abstain from idolothites But Paul declareth that in cōmon vsage where no mā is offended we haue a libertie to vse things that are offered vnto vs by the course and necessitie of this life as the creatures of GOD without doubtfulnesse Therefore I do graunt that the Surplesse or such like may be vsed in cōmō businesses as to make it a Porters weede or to lappe some course thing therein as did Epiphanius with the vayle at Anablata or to giue to some poore man or woman that wante clouthes for their children But to vse it in the Sacramentes in Gods businesse is to make all the worlde to thinke that wee which would seeme reformers of Religion doo but trifle in Gods matters and that wee neyther doo abhorre Antichriste nor his hypocrisie Therefore as Iehu did well in turning the Idolatrous Temples into iakes and in polluting the garmentes with the bloud of the Priestes So should we procede in true reformations and all the faithfull Ministers of God should be Trumpets to stirre vs forwarde not clogges to drawe vs backwarde Bern. What you are to whote and to hastie you thinke that Rome may be builded vpon one day There bee many yet infirme and weake in Englande with whome the Gouernors must beare for a season vntill they bee stronger and that is very good police seeing they cannot reforme all thinges at once And because such thinges haue bin creeping in by little and little haue nowe bin long vsed they cannot be taken awaye but by a long continuaunce Mil. Nowe I doe aske thee in Gods name if thou doe thinke that they go about to builde Rome againe or to destroye it A thing is muche sooner destroyed then builded or canste thou tell mee this howe long they will bee weake or when all will bee strong It is almost fortie yeares since the Pope and poperie hath bin so long written and spoken against and about thirty yeres that his name as a thing most odious was commaunded by law of parliament to bee razed out of all Bookes and places in Englande and the Testament of Iesus Christ hath bin so long restored and published a-amongst vs. Now if men be not yet confirmed in the knowledge of Christe agaynste that Romane Antichrist the Pope and his blasphemous Priesthoode when will they be confirmed when they are fiftie or threescore yeares old peraduenture and haue bin taught so many yeares But you know that the most part die before fortie and who shal aunswere for them Either howe knowest thou that Gods word shall continue in Englande tenne or twentie yeares longer vntill men be no more weake Either wil you tarry till men learne it in another worlde Either is God so bounde to England that he will not forsake Englande as hee hath done his owne people and many other Nations for the greatnesse of their sins Nay thou murthering Englande that hast slaine so many of the seruauntes of God whiche called for the fruites of the Lordes Vineyarde and haste yet shewed no true fruites of repentaunce but sworne and forsworne thy selfe in sundrie Parliamentes and delightest stil in thy dregges and hatest them to this day that faithfully doe their office thou ●ust heare feele this terrible iudgement that the Lorde will let out his Vineyarde to others that will deliuer him the fruites in due season and that also which he spake to a people of greater holinesse than thou art The Kingdome of God shall bee taken away from you and giuen to a nation that shall bring forth the fruites thereof And O ye time takers time waiters which can finde no time to doe well alleadging the weakenesse of others beware that it be not your own weakenesse which wold fayne please both God and the worlde and therefore swim betwixt two waters Is it not yet time to build and purge Gods house when you haue alreadie builded ceeled and trimmed your own houses Beholde you may see in very short time where zeale and care of religiō is without halting al things are easily reformed after the word of God reuerently receaued Beware therefore that it be not of your own weakenesse that haue not yet learned rightly to hate those vayne traditions and superstitious shewes of the popish priesthoode but are content to be in such flauery your selues and so woulde haue all others rather then you will suffer any thing for the furtheraunce of the
by my talke by all these bruites abroade and by the bitter contention that is fallen amongest the learned that these thinges do not edifie For such thinges as rayse contention in the Church of Christe do not edifie These ragges haue raised such a contention in England as neuer was since the gospell was in Englande Therefore they do not edifie They choke the synceritie of the gospell they staye and stoppe the course of the gospell they declare them to be halters that we are them they ioyne hands and drawe the yoke with the wicked Papistes they declare no true sigues of repentaunce whylest they are not ashamed of the shewes of their olde whorishe superstitions they giue Christe a reede in his hande and attire him with a crowne of thorne as though hee were vnable to appointe his Ministerie and Sacramentes without mens deuises they take away the differēce of the olde and new Testament they keepe the people in blindnesse and in the heauie clogge of cōscience that they thinke still that no Sacramentes are rightlie ministred without them they cause Christes seruauntes the true Preachers to be euill spoken of as the traditions aforetime did Christ and his Apostles Howe dare any man affirme then for verie shame that these ragges do edifie And if they do so they must bring more than their owne bare authoritie least they bee founde subiect to this sentence of Isaiah Wo vnto them that speake good of euill and euill of good which put darknesse for light light for darknesse Wo vnto thē that are wise in their owne eyes prudent in their owne sight whiche buylde againe y e things that they haue destroyed and make themselues transgressors Bern. I praye thee refrayne from these raging heates so can I like thy talke verie well Mil. These are no carnall passions nor rages as thou supposest But as my sayings haue their grounde of Gods holie worde so I thanke God I doo feele the zeale of gods glorie and the loue of my Brethren leade me thus to speake And the verie hatred of that Romane Antichriste and the griefe of harte to see the godlie Preachers by this vile occasion persecuted spoyled and prisoned by their brethren and rayled vpon by the papistes and Neutralles and their places occupied by such as will onelie weare the garmentes may trouble anie Christian conscience And marke who are the moste readie to weare this popishe geare Euen the papistes the moste enemies of the Gospell for they would neuer yet refuse them but by their craftie packing haue caused many other that haue no courage for the trueth but goe backwarde not forwarde to turne to them contrarie to the precepte of God by Ieremiah Let them returne vnto thee but return thou not vnto them And I will make thee vnto this people a strong brasen wall They shall fight agaynst thee and not preuayle c. Beholde what the way is to edifie to turne whollie from the wicked vnto God onelie as the Lorde saith agayne by Ieremiah O Israell if thou returne returne vnto mee Shall my Heritage be vnto me as a birde of diuers coloures O saieth the Lord by his Prophet Hosea Ephraim hath mixed him selfe amonge the Heathen Israel is as a cake on the hearth not turned Agayne They returne but not to the moste Highe They are like a deceytfull Bowe Whereby wee maye learne that the whole turning vnto God from all superstitions and not the patched turning is that which doeth edifie The waye to edifie in Christes Kingedome is described in these wordes In that daye sayeth the Lorde of Hostes I will cut off the names of the Idolles out of the lande and they shalbe no more remembred And I will cause the false prophetes and the vncleane Spirites to departe out of the lande And when anie shall yet prophecie his father and his mother shall kill him And in that daye the Prophetes shal be ashamed of their visions neyther shall they weare their roughe garmentes to deceaue Beholde nowe that the spreading of Christes Kingdome is to take awaye the verie names and all monumentes and remembraunces of the Idolles and to make the false Teachers ashamed of theyr Garmentes wherein they haue mocked God his people Thou mayest easelie perceaue hereby Bernard that to appointe these garments as ornamentes for Christes Ministers and Sacramentes is not the right waye to edifie Christes people no more than a skarre Crowe can geather Crowes or a Wolues skinne can please the sheepe Our Sauiour Christe tooke awaye the Garmentes appointed by his father because in his spirituall kingdome they could nothing edifie And shall Antichristes Garmentes toyes therein edifie Christe reiecteth al the outwarde forme of worshippe both of the Iewes and Gentiles and sayeth That his father will from thence forth bee worshipped in Spirite and trueth And he knew the best of al others what could edifie Furthermore thus bitterlie to striue for the mayntenaunce of Popishe garmentes after the Pope is banished for massing garmentes after the Masse is abolished for the ragges of that Idolatrous and blasphemous Priesthoode where wee saye It is detested and abiured it is a great madnes Therefore it can not edifie And this mayntenaunce of the monuments of their olde spirituall fornication doth declare that men haue not yet repēted of their olde spirituall fornication Wherefore this doeth not edifie No of the contrarie it maketh to edification to bring the popishe priesthoode into full detestation But that can neuer be so long as their garments are appoynted by authoritie to bring honour reuerence to Christes ministerie and Sacramentes the strumpettes garishe geare to attire the moste chaste Virgine Antichristes whorishe smocke to Christes pure spouse howe can this edifie Bern. Stay thy self thou wilt neuer haue done Goe nowe to the seconde that these are preceptes of men Mil. Why doubtest thou of that They are not of God For it is not written in Gods booke that the Ministers of GOD should weare the garmentes of the Idolatrous priestes but the contrarie as is partlie declared and shalbe made more playne hereafter Therefore not being of God they must eyther come from man or frō the Deuill or from both together Bern. Nay there be many things that are left indifferent as all the creatures of God may be indifferently vsed or not vsed And therefore by authoritie may bee commaunded Mil. Besides that in matters of Religiō mens commaundementes are vayne There be foure things which may make things indifferent by creation not indifferent to bee vsed of Christians The first is If that they beare the markes of the Idolles as straūge formes onely vsed to y t purpose or straūge names vsed onely in the idolatrous seruice as Cope or Surplesse The seconde if they be by vsage superstitious so that vnto them is attributed any kinde of holinesse as thoughe without them the sacramentes coulde not be ministred Thirdly if they be commaunded against christian libertie
to god man whiche burned Gods holy Testament and murthered his Saintes and seruauntes We haue the lawe of god and man for vs. We are answered Nay your selues shalbe compelled to turne your cloathe your coates and cappes and to get you into his liuerie and to be like him in his garmentes O Elias that thou haddest liued or that thy spirit were amongst vs. The Papistes which are in the countreys glorie in theyr assemblies that the whotte gospellers shall now be dryuen to weare their attyres Let vs neuer giue them any cause of ioye though we shuld dye for it Moyses will not yeelde a hoofe of a beast in Gods busines He will not leaue a loupe of a Curtayne vnmade nor make a buttō or a claspe more or lesse Eleazar would not dissemble by eating of vnlawfull meates The faithful Israelites would not receyue so much as an Iuey bushe Cōtrariewise Origen carrying a braunche and professing that he bare it for Christe at the firste was compelled afterwards to open Idolatrie So cursed a thing it is to giue any place to the wicked All the Papistes that say they worship Christe in the crosse and God in the Sacrament doo still vnder these wordes continewe in Idolatrie Beware of deceytfull wordes that couer wicked purposes to drawe vs from Christian simplicitie And let vs stande constantly agaynst all abuses repent for our former coldnes in Religion and other sinnes and call for helpe from aboue For the arme of our Lorde is not shortned Wee are assured that wee seeke Gods glory and our aduersaries may see if they can see any thing that this thing whiche they seeke is not for Gods glory seeing the Papistes the enemies of God do so desire it and glory in it that we whom they most hate can not be safe but vnder their garmentes We are assured that wee seeke Gods glory when wee followe Christe his Apostles and Prophetes who euer dispised these Pharisaicall outward faces and visardes Christe findeth faulte with the garments of the Pharisees Paul counteth all his Pharisaicall shewe to bee dounge Zacharie sayeth that the false Prophete shalbe ashamed of his prophecy and forsake his garmentes wherein he deceyued And shall the true Prophets be faine to creepe into their cowles For by the same authoritie that the Queene commaundeth one she may commaunde any peece of Popery so that she name it policie But Ezechias and Iosias knewe no such authoritie They saye that it is for pollicie and I do easely beleue it that they do care lesse for Christes Religion than for pollicie But let them beware that they follow not Ieroboam that made such like Priestes for policie as would do as he commaunded them Achaz of pollicie brought such an Aultar into Ierusalem as he did see at Damascus where he had ouercome the Idolaters and their Idolles But cursed was his pollicie and so are they all that will retayne any thing of their old Idolatrie Nabuchodonozors Idoll was set vp for vnitie pollicie But without the warraunt of Gods holy word there is neither good vnitie nor pollicie That godly Father Bucer calleth the Tenthes and first Fruites sacriledge and robberie though they bee kept still for pollicie The Crosse and Candlestickes vpon the Queenes altar are superstitious though they bee kept there I wott not for what pollicie The adoration of the Sacrament in the Countreys where they knocke and kneele to a wafer is a Popishe pollicie That VVomen baptize that pluralities tot quots impropriations non residences dispensations suspensions excommunications and absolutions for money are graunted it is euill like as are many other enormities borowed from Rome which remayne in the name of pollicie All these thinges were abhorred as Popishe superstious and Idolatrie among our Englishe Gospellers both Bishoppes and others when they were vnder Goos rodde in pouertie But they haue nowe learned Courtly Diuinitie to grounde all vppon pollicie Humble them agayne O Lorde that they do not forget thee nor thi poore people whom thou hast so dearely bought whiche by these their policies are blinded and careth for no more but that they may haue this superstitious shew which is still so maynteyned Let him mumble as he list if he be thus apparelled all his seruice is good ynough otherwise it is nothing worth Thus cause you them to perishe by your pollicies for whome Christ hath dyed Furthermore if Popery be superstitious and Idolatrous euill and wicked as yet there was neuer a worse thing in the worlde then are we commaunded to absteyne from all participation thereof and from all the shewe thereof Ab omni specie mall that is from all shewe of wickednes These garmentes were the shewe of their blasphemous priesthood herein they dyd sing and saye their superstitious Idolatrous seruice they dyd sence theyr Idolles and helpe forwarde their Idolatrous Masses What pollicie can it bee then to weare this geare but a superstitious wicked Popish pollicie They do it for policie they say that theyr Priests may be knowen and magnified of men Did not the Pharisees vse the same pollicie to do all theyr workes and make all their garmentes both Philacteris vpon theyr heads and theyr wyde and syde Robes and borders that they might be more aspectable and notorious to the people but theyr woo is threatened aboue all other sinners To such hypocrites as beyng voyde of all true holynesse delite in all outwarde shewes theyr curse is most inculcate Their pollicie is that the Priestes shall weare white in the Churches to signifie theyr vertue their purenes holynesse and when they go forth of the Church they muste weare blacke gownes and blacke hornes for contrary pollicies and for diuers significations Our Maister Christes pollicie was expressed in one worde Feede Feede Feede and the Prophetes before and the Apostles afterwarde If Christ be the wisedome of the Father the true Ministers shalbe well ynough knowen by that one marke which he giueth And if he haue not that marke better vnknowen then knowen both for him selfe others therefore lett them not saye for shame that they seeke gods glorie Christes will or the edification of his Church by their pollicie Whyles they threaten and stoppe the spreading of Gods worde and feeding of Christes flocke commaunded by writing to excommunicate the most faythful labourers in the planting of the gospell because they will not weare the ragges of Poperie to expulse the most valiaunt Souldiours agaynst the Romishe Antichrist the most earnest ouerthrowers of the kingdome of Satan which standeth in sinne and blindnes O beware you that wilbe Lordes ouer the flockes that you be not sore punished for your pryde towardes your brethren and your cowardlinesse in gods cause that for Princes pleasures pompose liuings do turne Poperie into pollicie and to become our persecutours vnder the cloake of pollicie It were better to loose your liuings then to displease god in persecuting of your brethren and hinder the course of the