the way of government given by Christ Jesus the King of peace is the way of peace and righteousnesse And whereas you affirme That if the controversie touching Circumcision should have beene ended in the Church of Antiochia then parties must have beene Iudges Here you would seeme by this to make the whole Church of Antioch leavened with the Doctrine of Justification by Circumcision which to doe is a very great slander as it appeares by Paul Barnabas opposing them there and that Churches sending Paul and Barnabas to have the Churches advise at Ierusalem concerning this matter But whereas you affirme That the Church of Antiochia judged it unequall to decide the case among themselves I answer That they judged it unequall is more than is expressed in that place but if that should be granted it will make against you for their reason in sending the matter to Ierusalem was because the parties were members of the Church of Ierusalem as it appeares by Acts. â—5 1. 5. 24. The first verse sheweth that they were men of Iudea the 5th verse proves that they were Beleevers The 24th verse declares that they went out of the Church of Ierusalem unto them And by this you may see plainely that this Chapter above all the Chapters that I can finde proves Independencie upon your owne ground that the Church of Antiochia judged it an unequall thing for them to judge the members of the Church of Ierusalem And by this you may perceive how you have either erred not knowing the Scriptures or else you have done worse in labouring to darken the truth by evasions or false glosses Thus much for your third Reason IN your fourth Reason you affirme That the light and Law of Nature with right reason is against the Independancie of particular Churches which is an unjust affirmation as hath beene plainely proved before in the Answer to your third Reason But a few words concerning this Reason You say it is found necessary in bodies naturall that the particular members doe joyne in one for the good of the whole and that the whole being greater than a part the severall parts should be subject too and ordered by the whole All this I have granted you freely already in the Answer to your second Reason where I have plainely proved unto you that the hands of the Church are ordered by the whole body in the Ordination of the Ministery And this is according to the very Scripture it selfe for the holy Ghost speaketh so in 1 Cor. 12. Comparing the Church of God to the naturall body of a man and therefore when the hand lanceth the foote it cannot be said properly to be the action of the hand alone because the hand is set a worke by the body neither can the body set the hand a worke if it be destitute of the power for the motion of the body commeth not from the hand but the motion of the hand from the body and thus you may see I have granted your comparison And the nearer politicke bodies doe goe to this Rule the more orderly they are guided for as all the cities and country of England make up but one Kingdome and all the people in England ought to be subject to one King so all the Independant Congregations in England and out of England that are guided by the Lawes of Christ make up but one Kingdome spiritually to him that is their King Now concerning Armies though I be very ignorant in these things yet thus much I conceive that all the Armies that belong to the Kingdome ought to be under the banner of their owne King even so all the particular Congregations of Christ are to be guided by the Lawes of their owne Captaine Christ who rideth before them with his garments dipt in blood and they follow after him riding upon white horses Revel. 19. 11 12. 13 14. We reade also in the Scripture of another armie which were gathered together against the Lord and against his Christ And this armie I conceive consisteth of those Locusts which ascended out of the bottomlesse pit Rev. 9. And these as I told you before are Arch-Bishops Diocesan Bishops Deanes Prebends c. and the rest of that rable and these also have a King over them which is the Angell of the bottomlesse pit who is said to be the great red Dragon the Devill and Sathan Rev. 12. 3. 9. and 20. 2. who gave unto this armie his power and throne and great authority Rev. 13. 2. Therefore to any Counsells that are held or Canon Lawes that are enacted by any Captaine of this armie the Churches of Christ ought not to submit though they should be commanded by any Statute Law of the Kingdome for those Statute Lawes are not according to Christs Rule but ought by all Councells of State to be repealed And whereas you say It is alledged by the Separation that hold Independancie That the Magistrate of Leyden cannot governe in Delph This I hope you will grant for I am sure the Magistrates of Coventry cannot execute their office in Shrewsbury neither can the one Towne chuse Magistrates for the other and this still proves Independencie for either of these may chuse their owne and guide their owne at all times except they forfeit their Charter Now whereas you say the people alleadge for themselves that the Law of nature teacheth them to make a Covenant though there be neither precept nor practise of it in the word I suppose you misconster their sayings for the text alleadged in Thessalonians 4â— doth not prove that brotherly love was never written of in the Scripture but that it had beene so sufficiently taught of God by written precepts that it needed not to be written againe Besides I am able to prove by the Scripture that there is both precept and practise for a Church Covenant the which I will answer you in the Answer to your 6th Reason where you begge the Question Concerning what is asserted by some Divines of Scotland That in such things as are alike common to the Church and Commonwealth and have the same use in both and that whatsoever natures light directeth the one directeth the other also You know by what hath beene formerly spoken I have fully assented unto it I also agree with Amesius as farre as he agrees with the truth but to agree with you in that falsehood that the Government of independant Churches is against the light of nature and right Reason that I have denied and disproved sufficiently already Thus having answered every particular thing in this Reason that hath not beene answered already I proceede to the Fifth IN your 5th Reason you affirme That there be many Rules in Scripture that doe require the combination of Churches into Synods for proofe whereof you say that Amesius confesseth the Rules and Commands to be such as these Let all things be done to edification decently and in order Cor. 14. 26. 40. and follow after the things which make for
THE IVSTIFICATION OF THE Independant CHVRCHES of CHRIST Being an Answer to Mr. EDVVARDS his BOOKE which hee hath written against the Government of CHRISTS CHVRCH and Toleration of CHRISTS Publike Worship BRIEFELY DECLARING That the Congregations of the Saints ought not to have Dependancie in Government upon any other or direction in worship from any other than CHRIST their HEAD and LAVV-GIVER By KATHERINE CHIDLEY 1 SAM. 17. 45. Thou commest unto me with a Sword and with a Speare and with a Sheild but I come unto thee in the name of the Lord of Hoasts the God of the armies of Israel whom thou hast defied IVDGES 4. 21. Then Iael Hebers wife tooke a naile of the tent and tooke an hammer in her hand and went softly unto him and smote the naile into his temples and fastened it into the ground for he was fast asleepe and weary and so he died LONDON Printed for WILLIAM LARNAR and are to be sold at his Shop at the Signe of the Golden Anchor neere Pauls-Chaine 1641. TO The CHRISTIAN READER Grace Mercy and Peace from God the Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ IT is and hath beene for a long time a Question more enquired into than well weighed Whether it be lawfull for such who are informed of the evills of the Church of England to Separate from it For my owne part considering that the Church of England is governed by the Canon Lawes the Discipline of Antichrist and altogether wanteth the Discipline of Christ and that the most of them are ignorant what it is and also doe professe to worship God by a stinted Service-Booke I hold it not onely lawfull but also the duty of all those who are informed of such evills to separate themselves from them and such as doe adhere unto them and also to joyne together in the outward profession and practise of Gods true worship when God hath declared unto them what it is and being thus informed in their minds of the knowledge of the will of God by the teaching of his Sonne Jesus Christ it is their duty to put it in practise not onely in a Land where they have Toleration but also where they are forbidden to preach or teach in the name or by the power of the Lord Jesus But Mr. Edwards with whom I have here to deale conceiving that the beauty of Christs true worship would quickly discover the Foggy darkenesse of the Antichristian devised worship and also that the glory of Christs true Discipline grounded and founded in his Word would soone discover the blacknesse and darkenesse of the Antihristian Government which the poore people of England are in bondage unto hath set his wits a work to withstand the bright comming of Christs Kingdome into the hearts of men which we are all commanded in the most absolute rule of Prayer to petition for for the turning aside whereof Mr. Edwards hath mustred up his forces even eight Reasons against the government of Christ which hee calls Independant and hath joyned unto these eight ten more which he hath made against Toleration affirming that they may not practise contrary to the course of the Nation wherein they live without the leave of the Magistrate neither judgeth he it commendable in them to aske the Magistrates leave nor commendable in the Magistrate to heare their petitions but rather seeketh to stirre up all men to disturbe their peace affirming most unjustly that they disturbe the peace of the Kingdome nay the peace of three Kingdomes which all the lands under the Kings Dominions know to be contrary nay I thinke most of the Kingdomes in Europe cannot be ignorant what the cause of the disturbance was But this is not the practise of Mr. Edwards alone but also of the whole generation of the Clergie as thou maist know Christian Reader it was the practise of the Bishop of Canterbury to exclaime against Mr Burton Doctor Bastwicke and Mr. Prynne calling them scandalous Libellers Innovators though they put their own name to that which they write and proved what they taught by divine authority and this hath beene alwayes the practise of the instruments of Sathan to accuse the Lords people for disturbing of the peace as it hath beene found in many Nations when indeede the troublers be themselves and their fathers house But in this they are like unto Athalia crying treason treason when they are in the treason themselves But for the further strengthning of his army he hath also subjoyned unto these his Answer to sixe Reasons which he saith are theirs but the forme of some of them seemeth to be of his owne making all which thou shalt finde answered and disproved in this following Treatise But though these my Answers are not laid downe in a Schollerlik way but by the plaine truth of holy Scripture yet I beseech thee have the patience to take the paynes to reade them and spare some time to consider them and if thou findest things disorderly placed laâ—our to rectifie them to thine own mind And if there be any weight in them give the glory to God but if thou feest nothing worthy attribute not the weakenesse thereof to the truth of the cause but rather to the ignorance and unskilfulnesse of the weake Instrument Thine in the Lord Jesus KATHERINE CHIDLEY THE Answer to Mr. EDVVARDS his INTRODVCTION _â— Hearing the complaints of many that were godly against the Booke that Mr. Edwards hath written and upon the sight of this his Introduction considering his desperate resolution namely that he would set out severall Tractates against the whole way of Separation I could not but declare by the testimony of the Scripture it selfe that the way of Separation is the way of God who is the author of it * which manifestly appeares by his separating of his Church from the world and the world from his Church in all ages When the Church was greater than the world then the world was to be separated from the Church but when the world was greater than the Church then the Church was to separate from the world As for instance When Caine was a member of the Church then the Church was greater than the world and Caine being discovered was exempted from Gods presence * before whom he formerly had presented himselfe c but in the time of Noah when the world was greater than the Church d then Noah and his Family who were the Church were commanded to goe into the Arke e in which place they were saved when the world was drowned f yet Ham being afterward discovered was accursed of his Father and Shem was blessed and good prophesied for Iaphat Afterward when the world was grown mightier than the Church againe then Abraham was called out of Vr of the Caldeans both from his country and from his kindred and from his fathers house g because they were Idolatâ—rs to â—â—â—ship God in Canaan Moreover afterwards Moses was seâ—â— and his brother Aaron to deliver the
consciences and thus you may see it taketh away no authority which God hath given to them The next thing you say is that they cannot be certaine that their servants and children sanctifie the Lords day To which I answer that indeede unbeleeving Masters take as little care of this as they that have given liberty to prophane the Lords Day but beleeving Parents and Masters may easily know if their children or servants be of any Congregation what their life and conversation is and therefore this can hinder no duties or workes of Families as you falsely affirme nor crosse the good and peace of Familes By this you may see that this your groundlesse affirmation is no good Reason against Toleration And therefore the Court of Parliament to whom you submit for judgement may easily see that good members both for Churches and Common-wealths may issue out of such Families that live under Christs government and that such Families may be good Nurseries both for Church and Common-wealth Thus much for your third Reason IN your fourth Reason you doe affirme that there will be great danger of disputes amongst you about Government and Worship and Doctrine and practises in the Conclusion you say it will be about a question where Saints goe when they die whether to heaven or a third place I Answer This is a question I never heard amongst the Separates or any of those whom you call Independant men but amongst the Papists of Rome and England The next thing is about sitting with hats on to breake bread I Answer this may be a question indeed but not to breede division for it may be as lawfull for one man to sit covered another uncovered as it may be lawfull for one man to receive it sitting and another lying in bed But if any man list to be contentious the Churches of God have no such custome Thus much for your Fourth Reason IN your fifth Reason you affirme that the Ministers of the Kingdome can have little assurance of the continuance of their flockes to them if such a toleration be granted but that the tolerated Churches will admit them into fellowship and increase Churches out of their labours and that they should doe little else but spend and be spent To this I answer that if you were the Ministers of Christ as you would be taken to be it might be your comfort joy and glory for it was the Apostles worke to gather the Saints and to travell in birth of children and they did not grudge that they were added unto the Churches of Christ but tooke care for them being so added for the care of all Churches lay upon them and therefore they were as Fathers and Nurses unto them and the Gospell admits of no such theft as to steale away members from other Churches but if men draw neere to the truth which never were members of any Church and offer themselves to joyne unto us we may admit them upon good experience of their life and conversation for those members that travelled from one Church to another were commended unto those Churches by Letters from the Church where they were members or else they could not have beene admitted and thus you may see the way of the Gospell admits of no such disorder Now whereas you say that this Toleration upon any light occasion of demanding dues or preaching against any thing they like not opens a wide doore and will invite them to disert their Ministers I answer by demanding of that which you call dues you may indeede give just occasion for you may demand for due that which is not due as all the Priests of England doe Likewise by preaching of Doctrine you may give just occasion if you justifie the wicked and condemne the just and make sad the hearts of those whom God would not have made sad and then if your people flye from you you may thanke your selves but concerning what you count to be your due I will declare hereafter * Thus much for your fifth Reason NOw in the beginning of your sixth Reason you say that liberty will be an undoubted meanes and way of their infinite multiplication and increase even to thirty fould Truely I thinke you are afraid as Pharaoh was least the Lords people should grow mightier then you Next you say if the Parliament could like to have more of the breede of them and have a delight to have multitudes exempted from the Ecclesiasticall Lawes of the Land c. I answer it is no disgrace to the Parliament if they should so delight though never Parliament before had done the like Moreover you say they have increased within this nine moneths without a toleration therefore you conclude they would multiply much if they had a toleration in many if not in most Townes and Parishes and â—ou say it cannot be helped All this I grant may be although they have not a Toleration I thinke they will increase for the Taskemasters can lay no heavier burthens upon them then they have laid already but though they should increase it will not be unprofitable for the increase of beleevers will be the strength and glory of the Kingdome for they will in all lawfull things be subject to the Kings Majestie their dread Soveraigne and to all the wholesome Lawes of his Land and therefore it will be no danger to have as you say swarmes of them Thus much for your Sixth Reason IN your 7th Reason you affirme that it will be very preâ—udiciall dangerous and insufferable to this Kingdome for Saints two or three or more to gather and combine themselves in Church Fellowship having one â—â— power from Christ their immediate heade without expecting warrant from any Governors First whereas you say it will be prejudiciall I answer It can prejudice none in the Kingdome except it be the Priests and it will be but of a little tithes which they dare not in conscience pay because those Iewish Ceremonies are ceased and if they have not Toleration that will be all one in that respect for they will rather suffer then doe any thing against conscience Now whereas you say it will be dangerous and insufferable to the Kingdome both these I deny for if they were offensive people two or three or a few could doe but little hurt But they have beene proved to be a peaceable people and the suffering of such hath never beene dangerous to any Nation but the not suffering of such to live quietly in a Land or to passe quietly thorow a land hath brought Judgements upon such Lands Now whereas you seeme to imply that they should aske leave of the Magistrate to gather and combine themselves into visible Churches c. I answer I doe not reade that any ever asked leave of the Magistrate for such a thing nor to performe any of the parts of Gods Worship or Discipline and yet you confesse that these independant men doe petition to the Parliament for liberty * Now I pray
to pray for the Kingdome of God to come we are not to limit it to this that Christ may come to rule in us onely but that-he may rule as a King in the heart of all his chosen Neither ought wee alone to acknowledge praises but wee ought to desire that prayses to God may be acknowledged by others also and that they may grant the Kingdome and power and glory to be his not that he should be a King onely to rule in the hearts of men but also that he may rule and governe the actions of the bodies of men in his outward worship as we are commanded to glorifie God with our bodies and soules and the reason is because they are his 1 Cor. 6. 20. Now if our bodies and soules be Gods then it must needs be granted that it is in spirituall worship for in all civill things it hath beene acknowledged already that both bodies and lives are our soveraigne Lord the Kings in whose Land we dwell Now if there were any forme of prayer for men to bind themselves unto it would have beene shewed either in this Scripture or in some other which thing you have not yet proved That they were not tied to this forme of words is plaine by another Evangelist which doth not use the same words but addeth some and leaveth out other some and also the whole forme of thankesgiving is left out by Luke Luke 11. 2. 3. 4. Compared with Matth. 6. 9. and to seeke the helpe of any booke but the Bible to teach men to pray is to disable God which hath promised to give Beleevers his Spirit whereby they shall cry Abba Father c and that that Spirit should leade them into all truth and bring all things to their remembrance d Therefore a forme of prayer for men to tie themselves unto cannot be sufficient and pleasing to God though it were never imposed by any Thirdly you lay another slander upon us as though we should affirme that Christian Princes and Magistrates who are defenders of the Faith have no more to doe in and about the Church then Heathen Princes This is not true for we know that Christian Princes and Magistrates ought to be members of Christs Church and so being they may be Officers in the Church And if they be Defenders of the Faith they be such as defend the pure worship of God manifested in his Word as also the true professors thereof and that against all tyrannicall power that shall attempt to suppresse either it or them as the good Kings of Judah and Israel did by slaying the Servants and Prophets of Baal who had slaine the Lords people But Heathen Kings cannot be said to be members of the Church of Christ before they know Christ and then they become Christian Kings Therefore to vent upon all occasions such principles as you see wee hold and maintaine is not as you say dangerous and insufferable neither are the people But you say further that the people for a great part of them are heady and refractory and proud and bitter and scornfull and dispisers of authoritie and that they will not suffer publike prayers to be prayed but that by their gesture and threatning of the Ministers they have laboured to hinder the use of them And these people I gather from your owne words are the professors in England and especially in the city of London and it is very like to be so because they were there at the time of your service for neither the Separates nor Semiseparates as you call them use to be there at the time of your service for ought I know and these Professors you have also called Idle busibodies tatlers also as it is said 1 Tim. 5. 13. very wanton in their wits say you affecting novelties in Religion and liking of points that are not established nor commonly held and these you say are many of the professors * And in your second Reason against Toleration Pag. 24. you say that the mindes of multitudes of the Professors in England and especially in this citie are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or Discipline that is not commonly received by the Church c. But I tel you you ought not to blame any for withstanding any thing in Gods worship which is not grounded in his Word Neither if the whole body of the worship there tendred be the invention of man ought any of them to be blamed for opposing such a worship because it is according to their Protestation Yet I justifie none that will oppose disorderly as either by casting up of hats or threatning the Minister or any the like unseemely behaviour for I judge it better for them to depart in peace if they have not faith in the action performed But methinkes Mr. Edwards you have foulely missed it in that you have thus vilified your brethren to call them by the names of those mockers which Paul testified should come in the last time that should be heady and high minded and proud boasters and dispisers of authority for such as these have not the power of godlinesse and by this you make your Church a foule Church and defile shrewdly your owne nest and make it appeare to all men that you live in a Cage of uncleane birds therefore you are commanded from such to turne aside * if the feare of God be in your heart Moreover You say you feare they will not tolerate the Government established by the Ecclesiasticall and civill Lawes and you would faine father the cause of this your feare upon Separates and Independancie whereas you cannot be so ignorant but that you must know that the government established by Law may stand without the leave of Separates for they have neither power to give toleration nor to prohibit toleration for or against any thing But you say you would rather pray against toleration than prophesie of the wofull effeâ—ts of it I answer if you can make such a prayer in a time acceptable then sometimes such prayers will be accepted which are not grounded upon Gods Word But of the wofullest effects of toleration you have prophesied already in that you say they will withstand your Doctrine and your dues * and that will be a wofull effect indeede when you shall be driven to cry out Alas alas that great city Babylon for in one houre is so great wealth come to desolation Thus much for your Seventh Reason IN your Eight Reason you affirme That these Independant men where they have power as in New-England will not tolerate any Churches or Government but in their owne way In using the word these you carry the matter so darkely that I know not whom you meane for you have named none But you seeme to say they be men that have power in New England I answer Indeede it may happen to be so That there may be some men there that take upon them authority to binde mens consciences
and though it be not in exsise for victuals yet it is in some other wayes from which the subjects of Holland are freed The next thing you affirme is That your riches and strength standeth in one way of Religion To which I answer I thinke if I could understand your minde herein you meane the riches and strength of the Priests for I am sure the riches and strength of the Kingdome may stand best with Toleration as it may appeare partly by what hath been said already for you have heard that the Lords people whom you thus persecute maintaine their owne poore And it will also be made appeare that they pay Scot and Lot in the Kingdome in all civill respects and are all as true subjects to the Kings Majesty and are ready to doe him all faithfull service with their bodies and estates as any in the Kingdome But I confesse that toleration would be neither riches nor strength to the Priests for it is sore against the peoples will that they pay them any thing now and it will be no wonder when it shall be made to appeare what the Priests wages iâ— * but that shall be done hereafter THeir third Reason you say is That if they have not liberty to erect some Congregations it will force them to leave the Kingdome For answer whereof you doe affirme in the first place that there is no neede of a toleration for them neither that they should leave the Kingdome for conscience and that you say will appeare by the Reasons and principles which they doe agree to which you say are these First that they hold your Churches true your Ministers true Ordinances true Further you say they can partake with you in your Congregations in all Ordinances even to the Lords Supper To which I answer Indeede here you would make the Readers beleeve that they had opened a wide gappe if they should take your affirmation without your provisall but you come to helpe your selfe handsomely in that you say their condition was that it must first be provided that scandalous and ignorant persons must be kept backe and Cerimonies must be removed Methinks this is a mighty great mountaine that stands between them and you and therefore you have small cause to aske them wherfore they should desire to set up Churches fortill this mountaine be removed they may be true to their own principles and not go from their word and yet never communicate with you either in worship or government For first If you keepe out all scandalous persons out of all the Churches in England from the Sacraments and all ignorant persons truely then your Churches will be as emptie as ours Secondly If you should remove away all your Ceremonies which is the second part of your reformation you could not tell how to worship for your whole forme and manner of worship is made of invented Ceremonies But if you can procure such a reformation to have your Church all consist of persons of knowledge fearing God and â—ating covetousnesse void of all other scandalls so far as we can judge by the Scripture and that the Ceremonies may be removed and we enjoy as you bragge all Gods Ordinances with you as well as in our owne Churches then you shall heare what I will say to you as well as the Independant men But till all this be done you see there is still good reason for good men either to desire liberty or to leave the Kingdome Further you say some of them could take the charge of Parochiall Churches amongst you upon the Reformation I Answer Indeede such a Reformation which you have formerly mentioned will hardly stand with Parochiall Churches But you say they could yeeld to Presbyteriall Government by Classes and Synods so they might not be injoyned to submit to it as Jure Divino To which I answer It seemes by your owne confession that they doe deny the Presbyteriall government by Classes and Synods to be from God as it appeares in that you say they will not submit to it as Iure Divino and therefore you have overthrowne your selfe in all this your reasoning with your Synods and Classes also so that still there remaines good grounds to seeke a Toleration that the Saints may grow into bodies even in this Land But to grow into one body with you as you would have them while your Churches body is like a Leopard and all bespotted as appeares by your words were very absurd for you â—â—â—e affirme that the best of your members even the Professors especially of London and of the great Townes in England are very fâ—â—le yet I hope you will confesse that they are the best of your members then if it be true as you say that you must remove in your Reformation all ignorant and scandalous persons by your grounds you should have but a very few to make a Church of as well as wee For you must remove also all your Professors which you say are so scandalous Therefore I should rather counsell you to repent of all your evills that you have done and be reconciled to God the Father and Christ his Sonne and separate your selves from all your wickednesse and even come and grow up into one body with us Secondly you say Seeing your Churches Ministers and Ordinances be true the erecting of new and withdrawing from such Congregations can never be answered to God I answer Here you take for granted that which you cannot prove and it is your wisdome so to doe for by that meanes you may make simple people beleeve that you are very right except a few defects which no man shall be freed from while he is in this life But now to the point and first touching your Churches and Ministers which you say be true and you also say the Independant men would grant them to be true upon a Reformation such as the Word requires I tell you for answer that this your juggling will not helpe you for no man is bound to take your bare word therefore it is good you make proofe of that which you have said But before you goe to prove your Churches true declare unto me what Churches you meane for I ever tooke the whole Land of England to be but one Church as it stands established by the Canon Laws and that all the Parishes in the Land make up but one entire body therefore what is amisse in one Parish all the whole are guilty of and it will be laid to the charge of the Archbishops who are the Metropolitanes or chiefe Priests over the Church of the Land Seeing it is so you must stand out to maintaine your Church and you neede not to trouble your selfe about your Church-es for I know no dependancie you have upon any except it be Rome according as I have told you before in the conclusion of my answer to your first tenth Reason against Independencie Therefore this is the Church that you must maintaine even the Church of England established
is worthy of his hire and that it is their duty to make them partakers of their carnall things of whom they receive spirituall things Further you are carefull to have them sober and peaceable and not to preach and speake against what is established by Law * Indeede I must tell you in my judgement no man can make way for a true Reformation except hee declare what is evill before he shew what is good Further you say you suppose subscriptions will not be injoyned to formes of Government and Discipline Here you seeme to yeeld that your formes of Government and Discipline be not of God then if there be no injunction none will obey but if injunctions none will obey for conscience for what good man can yeeld to an injuction that is not of God so then you may see your injunctions have beene the way and meanes to breed and bring forth a world of hypocrites as one may easily see by the Timeservers of your Church But you say that without a toleration we may injoy in a secret way our Church fellowship Indeede M. Edwards we have learned that lesson already for Christ hath taught us that we shall fly into the Wildernesse * and that the earth shall helpe us * but sometimes it proves to the danger of our lives and alwayes to the danger of our liberty as it may appeare by the practise herein London for though wee meete never so privately and peaceably yet such Cattle as your selfe are alwayes bleeting in the eares of your Parish Officers and Constables with your other Officers even till you move the Lord Major himself to be your drudge and as your horne which you push forward for the destruction of our bodies when he hath laid violent hands on them for it is evident that it hath beene to the losse of some of their lives and this is the liberty we have in this Kingdome and all through the instigation of you Priests But you say though some of the more sober and conscientious Ministers and people could use it better yet the Brownists and Anabaptists and weake brethren would be apt to scandall and therefore to avoid scandall you would iâ—siâ—â—ate that we are bound to neglect the whole forme of Church worship I told you before and I tell you now that you are afraid to have your owne glory ecclipsed and by this all men may see and by all your formers answers also that you would have us to enjoy in this Kingdome neither Ordinances nor conscience The next thing you lay downe is the judgement of an antient Father But indeede he is as sound in the faith as your selfe for hee would have men to joyne to Churches that have no power * And this being the sixth answer that you have given to their third reason you entreat them to lay all your sixe together and to consider sâ—â—ly whether God require unlesse they have a toleration to leave the Kingdome to runne many hazards and dangers when as they may enjoy so much at home without a Toleration as you say you have opened to these sixe answers To â—ch I answer when they are laid all six together they make but a peece of an answer to one of their Reasons and this piece of your answer is stuffed full of falicies as hath beene already proved and may further appeare by the conclusion of all here when you say they may have so much at home for it hath beene proved already that they can have nothing at home either in respect of liberty or worship but what they must have by stealth for when they would injoy the Ordinances of God which are Iewels which you would have none to have but your selves that so you might seeme glorious If any I say will presume to borow the Iewels and carry them away you will pursue after them and you know it was the practise of the Egyptians of old for they would have suffered the Israelites to have gone away empty and left their cattle behinde them so that they might have had nothing with them to have offered sacrifice withall and I pray you were not the Southsayers the cause of this by withstanding Moses and Aaron against the children of Israel even by the false Figures which they cast before the eyes of Phaâ—aoh to harden Pharâ—ahs heart even as you Priests doe at this day And thus I have laid together your sixe Reasons and weighed them but one truth is sufficient to over weigh them all But yet you have also a seventh Answer which is by it selfe and it is this That if they will not be satisfied say you without setting up Churches it is better they should get out of the Kingdome Besides you would have all others that be of this minde to leave the Land and goe to New-England that cannot be satisfied but that they must erect Churches to the disturbing of the peace of three Kingdomes Truely Mr. Edwards you shew your selfe a bloody minded man that would have the Innocent suffer for the faults of them that are guilty Was not the sending of your Masse-bookes into Scotland the cause of the disturbance and hath it not appeared plaine enough to the Parliament and to the Scots before the Parliament sate that the Bishops and Priests were the cause of the disturbance I doubt not but you have read both the Scotish Intentions and their Demands with their Declarations which have plainely manifested who and what was the cause of the disturbance it was not the meeting of a handfull of the Lords people which ever sought and do seeke the good and wellfare of the three Kingdomes with the life happy reigne of their Soveraigne Lord the King who alwayes sue unto God for the peace of the Kingdome in whose peace they may enjoy peace but contrariwise it plainely appeares that it was you and your Fathers house which caused this variance But say you it will be no great harme for many of them to goe away I answer It is like you apprehend the Judgements of God comming upon you and you thinke to be eased by driving out the Lords people in haste Further you say you would rather goe to the uttermost parts of the earth to live in a meane and hard condition rather than you would disturbe the peace or good of three Kingdomes For Answer to this I must tell you I would you had considered this before you had done it But now seeing God of his mercy hath reconciled them againe it may be the wisedome of you and your fellowes to depart unto Rome that Gods true Religion may be set up here in England without Popish Injunctions that so the last errour be not worse than the first for you say It is better that one perish than Vnity therefore in my judgement it is better that they should runne the hazard who have occasioned the strife Further you plead for your selfe and for hundreds of your brethren that you have borne the brunt