ordaining supplying instituting new Rites Orders Canons for the Churches peace and welfare I answer to the Proposition 1. That the Apostles themselves had no other libertie to doe any thing about the calling planting ordering and regulating of Churches but what they had immediarely given them by Christ and his Spirit 2. This liberty so given them reached no further then to those things onely which were given them in charge and which they accordingly as faithfull Stewards did practise concerning the Churches Even as Christ himselfe being the Son of God and set over his house was faithfull in all things doing nothing but what he had by speciall Commission and Command from the Father So as if the Son himselfe God blessed for ever took not the liberty to himself to doe what himselfe pleased as Mediator though as the Sonne he thought it no robbery to be equall with God the Father but did every thing as he had received commandment from him how much lesse have the servants of God any liberty to doe what pleaseth them but that and those things alone which they have in command from their Master If therefore they who prosesse to succeed the Apostles in their severall generations will challenge the same liberty which the Apostles had and used about the Churches of God they must first of all shew us their immediate Commission from Christ as the Apostles had Secondly They must all shew us that what they doe in Church-matters under colour and pretence of Apostolicall liberty is none other but what they have by expresse command from Christ by his Spirit And thirdly because they are not able to shew this they must use their liberty no further then the lists and limits of Scripture doe permit which holds forth an exact and perfect rule for all precisely to observe without the least variation As knowing that severe law of God often used in Scripture and wherewith as with a bounder-stone the whole Book of God is closed up and that with a solemne protestation of Christ himselfe If any man shall adde unto these things God shall adde unto him the plagues that are written in this book And if any man shall diminish ought thereof God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the Holy Citie But some will haply object This is meant not in point of Church-government Discipline Rites Ceremonies as left to mans liberty to ordaine adde supply institute according to the diversity of the lawes and customes of every Nation but in matter of Doctrine Story and Prophecy To which I answer though sufficiently noted before and now in one word if God were so exact about the forme of the Tabernacle a type of Christs Church under the Gospell to have all things observed according to the Patterne even unto the least pin what reason can any reasonable man give why Christ the same Law-giver and patterne it selfe should be lesse carefull over his Church in the New Testament so as to leave it at six and seven to the liberty of all Kingdomes and Nations of the world to set up in the Church what Government Discipline Rites Ceremonies Canons they pleased upon what pretence soever as for the Churches peace and welfare Hath not the opening of this one sluce let in such an Inundation of all manner of humane inventions in this kind as hath wel-nigh drowned the whole world in all manner of superstition and errour Therefore my deare brother Prinne assure your selfe not all the wits not all the learning in the world will be able to assert this your assertion but that it must of necessity fall to around with its owne weight and there brother let it lie or father die and bury it there whence it came All that Christ appointed is exactly to be followed though Christ was not so â—â—act in circumstantials under the Gospell because 1. That was a typicall and figurative worship 2. Christ now looks more to substantialls Joh. 4. 24. wherein he is more strict 1 Cor. 5. And where you say that as in the Apostles times Christians multiplied so also their Churches Church-Officers and their Church-Government Discipline varied Consider that here was no variation of the Rule but by degrees the rule of Church-government and Discipline was perfected not varied The Temple was seven yeares in building first hewing squaring then erecting stone after stone timber after timber each in his proper place here was no variation of the frame and forme of the Temple all this while but the worke went up day by day till it came to perfection according to the patterne in writing given to David by the Spirit Even so while the spirituall Temple is framing the daily goings up of it by order after order and rule after rule is no variation but a graduall tending to perfection till all be finished as we now see the whole frame of Church-government for all true Evangelicall Churches so compleated in the New Testament as nothing under the paine aforesaid may either be diminished or added to it And the same Orders are prescribed to all the Churches So ordaine I in all Churches saith the Apostle 1 Cor. 7. 17. So for the collection for the Saints and for the first day of the weeke for publick meetings as before the same order he gives to the Church of Corinth which he doth for the Churches of Galatia 1 Cor. 16. 1 2. So Officers chosen and ordayned in every Church Act. 14. 23. Tit. 1. 5. 7. So as if one Church for the smalnesse of it have fewer Officers and another Church for the largenesse of it more in number as the Church in Jerusalem had need of seven Deacons both for the magnitude of the Congregation and the multitude of the poore therein Act. 6. yet this makes no variation in the forme of Church-government as differing one from another either for substance or circumstance saving onely socundum magis minus as a little man is a man as well as the tallest man In a word those Arguments which you by way of derision set downe in your owne forme of words with their Ergoes for as much as they are of your own devising I therefore leave them with you to consider better of them Onely one I cannot passe by without wrong to Christ to his word to his Spirit to his Apostles Every man say you in his Infancy is borne destitute of Religion of the use of speech reason understanding faith legs c. Ergo He ought to continue so when he is growne a man Yet this is the maine Argument of some Independents say you O brother Of what Independents As whence this Argument Because they hold that in nothing they ought to swerve from the exact Rule Gods Word for the government of Churches And doe you compare the Scripture as it was in the Apostles time to a child in his Innocency destitute c So as if we will not transgresse the bounds of Scripture for
ANSVVER To Mr. PRYNNES second Book MY deare Brother to your twelve new Interrogatories I present you with a new Answer I call it new because I shall cull out such passages as I find new or not so much insisted on in your former twelve Which as they are fewer so I shall be the shorter for as much as in the former I have been the larger But brother I find not that in your Book which you pretend in your Title to wit the Unmasking of Independency Nor can we expect it of you for in your Proeme you say that the Independents have not dogmatically and in direct termes discovered the full truth of what they assert If not what kind of visage will you discover when you have taken off the mask Surely by your handling of the matter you mean to unmask some hags face such as pleased the Painter Which when you have done it will appeare to all the wise-hearted that it is not the face of Independency as wherein there shines forth such a beauty as it seemeth you yet never saw In your Preface to the Courteous Râ—â—der you say We politickly conceale the principall grounds and more deformed parts of our Church-Platforme for feare of miscarrying Good brother who told you soâ— Remember your own lesson before Judge not But indeed had you reproved us yet in love and meeknesse for not setting forth more fully a compleat Modell of this fabrick or spirituall house it had been something Which yet if it were done you would not impute it to policy that it was not sooner done But when it is exactly done you will find no deformed parts at all in it but contrariwise a greater beauty then in that famous Temple that Solomon built as being the spirituall Temple of Jesus Christ so as I am sorry you are put to the paines of pumping out our determinations as you say by your Questions When as you should rather find it as a fountaine flowing forth in the streets But brother how doe you write by Question not decision as you say when your Questions prove to be decisions as your former twelve are And what doe you els but refute upon bare conjectures Andabatarum more pugnando as those at blind-man-buff For your Charges upon us are very sore and as many doe say bitter so farre beyond reason as you are not able truly to say Wherefore For your first Question Whether the Independent forme of Church-government be anywhere to be found in the Old or New Testament this we have resolved in your former Twelve Questions so as this is no new Interrogatory unlesse you put the greater difference between Questions and Interrogatories And though it were in no antiquitie which yet we have shewen before neverthelesse if it be found in the Scripture as there it is whatsoever clouds of the mastery of iniquitie have darkened the lustre of it for so many hundred yeares yet this cannot plead prescription against it For if Nullum tempus occurrit Regi then surely no tract of time can prescribe against the law of Christs kingdome which we finde upon sacred record But where say you Why brother this House of God wherein Christ rules as King stands upon so many Principles as so many maine pillars not to be shaken As 1. It is a spirituall house whose onely builder and governour is Christ and not man 2. It is a spirituall kingdome whose onely King is Christ and not man 3. It is a spirituall Republick whose onely Law-giver is Christ and not man 4. It is a spiritual Corporation or body whose onely head is Christ and not man 5. It is a Communion of Saints governed by Christs Spirit not man's 6. Christs Church is a Congregation called and gathered out of the world by Christs Spirit and Word and not by man These Principles are such as the Adversaries themselves of this kingdome of Christ cannot dare not deny And out of these Principles doe issue these Conclusions 1. That no man is the builder of this spirituall house 2. That no man nor power on earth hath a kingly power over this kingdome 3. That no earthly Law-givers may give Lawes for the government of this Republick 4. That no man may claime or exercise a headship over this Body 5. That no man can or ought to undertake the Government of this Communion of Saints Item That none are of this Communion but visible Saints Ergo a true visible Church of Christ cannot be defined or confined to a parochiall multitude Item â—hat that Government of this Communion is not extrinsecall but intrinsecall by the Spirit of the Word and by the Word of the Spirit 6. That men may not appoint limit constitute what Congregations of all sorts they please to be Churches of Christ as Nations and Parishes But you confesse in generall Christ to be the Builder the King the Law-giver the Head the Governour the Caller the Gatherer of his Churches If you doe you must approve of those Churches you call Independent as whereof Christ is the onely Builder King Law-giver Head Governour Caller and Gatherer If you doe not in denying Christ in these relations you deny Christ in his absolute Regalitie But in your Answer to your Antiquerist pag. 6. you doe in part grant Christ to be King internally in the soule which you say may passe for tolerable O brother No more but may passe for toleráble You that are so lâ—rge-â—earred to your friends are you so strait-laced to Christ Surely Brother Christ is the full and sole King raigning in the heart and conscience of every true beleever It were intolerable not to grant this in its full latitude But you absolutely deny Christs sole kingly Government externall over his Churches Brother this is no lesse Christs kingly Prerogative then the former Hee that is King over every part of the body must needs be King over the whole body It therefore Christ be the only King over every mans conscience so as no man nor power on earth may sit with him in this his Throne then consequently by the seâ—f-same reason must he by the Word of the kingdome as the only Law thereof exercise his kingly office over his Churches so as no humane power or law may intermeddle to prescribe rules for the government or forms of this spirituall House and Kingdome For otherwise if man should set up a form of Government over the Church of Christ to which all must conforme then of necessitie should man bâ— Lord over the couscience which is the highest presumption against the most High And then what mischiefs would followâ— What intolerable tyrannie over the conscience Then must your words ibid. come to passe If a moderated or regulated Epâ—scopacie the same with Presbyterio should by the Synods advice be unanimâ—usly established in Parliament as most consonant to the Scriptures and most agrerable to the Civill Government I shall readily submit unto it
equity Now in your premises there is neither reason nor equity because no truth in them 2. Christ hath not delegated his Kingly office to any Princes Magistrates Parliaments to set up any form of worship or Church-government of their devising or conceiving no more then hee did to all or any of those you reckon up in the Old Testament I pray God give you a better understanding in this mystery of Christ and godly sorrow for these things Take then the counsell of this great King Bee wise therefore and understand and kisse this King this Sonne of God by obeying him in all that he saith as being not onely the onely King but the onely Prophet of his Church as before whom whoso heareth not IN ALL THINGS shall even be cut off from his people But how then doe you say This is a part of Christs Kingly office not Priestly or Propheticall to set up a government and hee hath not communicated those other offices to Princes and Parliaments Whereas Christ doth in all things regulate his Kingly office by his Prophetical office And again how say you Christ hath not given his Kingly office to Ministers but onely his Priestly and Propheticall and yet you make an Assembly of Ministers as Rector Chori to be the leaders and guides to a Form of Reformation and that necessarily And denying such to bee Kings or to have a Kingly office you exclude them out of the Albe of those faithfull ones whom Christ hath made a * Royall Priesthood even * Kings and Priests to God his Father But so much of this second Interrogatory The third Interrogatory Touching this 1. Wee assume not the power to gather Churches but being sent or called to preach the Word of the Kingdome thereby people thus called of God come to be gathered into Church-fellowship and so by consent doe chuse their Officers 2. Such as are thus called to acknowledge Christ their onely King were not begotten to this acknowledgment by such Ministers as you speak of who deny disclaime and preach against Christs Kingly government over mens consciences and Churches So as such a conversion as you speak of comes not home to whole Christ and such with their converters doe deny Christs Kingly government what kind of converts call you these Or at least and best they are converted but in part and that main thing wanting to wit Christs Kingly office they come up to by the preaching thereof 3. Such Ministers when they set up Christs government may being agreed upon by all sides have those Parishioners again that for want of it at the first went from them 4. Our solemne Vow and Covenant obligeth us not to any thing that is prejudiciall to the authority of Gods word and the libertie of a good conscience considering how Churches are gathered out of all the world not this place nor that not this house nor that but out of * every nation such as fear God and * out of every house the sons of peace out of * every Citie or Town all that receive the Gospel are called and gathered to Christ 5. Concerning Christian liberty in joyning to severall Churches as in the same house some to affect one some another you know what Christ saith Luke 12. 51 52 53. And it is God that perswadeth Iâ—phâ—t to dwell in the Tents of Shem. And brother all that noyse you make all along with extreame aggravations as Confusion Distraction implacable Contestations Schismes Tumâ—lts c. What are they but the very out-cries which the Prelats ever used for the crying and keeping up of their Hierarchy built upon the same sandy foundation This is well noted in the Harmony of Confessions Sect. 11. Confession of Ausburg These Senater-like Declamations though they be very plausible and incense the mindes of many against us yet they may be confuted by most true and substantiall arguments As All the Prophets and Apostles were true lovers of the peace and concord of Nations and people yet were they constrained by the commandement of God to warre against the Devils kingdome to preach heavenly doctrine to collect a Church unto God and the like And The true doctrine of God and his true worship must needs be embraced and received and all errors that tend to the dishonor of God must be abhorred and forsaken though all the world should break and fall down And much more there 6. Though we are fully perswaded by Gods Word and Spirit that this our way is Christs way yet wee neither doe nor dare judge others to be reprobates that walk not with us in it but we leave all judgement to God and heartily pray for them we our selves have been formerly ignorant of it therefore wee pitie others 7. Where you object that under pretence of Christian liberty whole Houses Parishes Counties may thus come to be divided into severall formes of Churches as some for the Presbyteriall some for the Hierarchicall and so cause Schismes and ruines or at least unavoidably subvert all ancient bounds of Parishes all setled maintenance for the Ministery by tythes c. Brother for Christian libertie who shall perswade the conscience or who hath power over it but he that made it even God the onely Judge thereof And for difference of mens judgements in points of Religion how can it be avoided And yet it followes not that upon such differences should come ruine to a State What serveth the Magistrate and the lawes of a civill State for but to keep the peace And as for Parishes will you allow no Churches but Parishes Or are Parishes originally any other but of humane politicke and civill constitution and for civill ends Or can you say that so many as inhabit in every Parish respectively shall bee a Church Should such Churches and Parishes then necessarily be Churches of Gods calling and gathering Are they not congregations of mans collection constitution and coaction meerly What Churches then And as for Tithes what Tithes I pray you had the Apostles Such as be faithfull and painfull Ministers of Christ he will certainly provide for them as when hee sent forth his Disciples without any purse or provision he asked them Lacked you any thing They said Nothing Surely the labourer is worthy of his hire And as for Ministers maintenance by Tithes I referre you to the judgment of your learned brother Mr. Selden And as for your Independent Ministers they plead no other maintenance then the New Testament holds forth yet not denying the Magistrate and State a power to appoint maintenance for the preaching of the word as is done in New England to those that are not members of Churches And where you charge them for having the faith of Christ in respect of persons as if they admitted the rich rather then the poore Brother I hope it is not so with others I am sure not so with me And lastly for your marginall young Interrogatories As 1. Of how many members
each Congregation I am sure your Congregations admit neither augmentation nor diminution but according to the capacitie of every Parish 2. Within what precincts Christs Churches are not limited either to place or number 3. What set Stipends allowed Sufficient more or lesse 4. When and where Churches should assemble For when at times convenient For where Not necessarily in this or that place 5. Who shall prescribe extraordinary times of fasting or thanksgiving to them upon just occasions If the occasion be the Churches peculiar Interest the Church agrees upon the time But if it be publick concerning the Politick body of the State whereof we are native members in whose weale or woe we sympathize either we keep dayes of our own appointment extraordinary or if the Civill State command and appoint a day we refuse not to observe it 6. Who shall rectifie their Church-Covenants Discipline Censures Government if erroneous or unjust First Each Church useth her best meanes left her of Christ within her selfe Secondly If need require she useth the help of Sister-Churches Thirdly If any other as the Civill State be not satisfied shee * refuseth not to yeeld an account of her actions being required 7. Shew us say you a sufficient satisfactory Commission from Gods Word for all they doe or desire before they gather any Churches Brother Prynne you say you will pump out our thoughts yea it seemes you will exanclate pumpe out every drop that is in us But stay brother you are not yet a Magistrate And 2. wee hope you will not take up againe the Oath ex Officio to pump out all our secrets And 3. Though I have for my part dealt very freely with you as my brother all along yet give me leave to keep a Reserve Doneâ— ad Triarios redieritres untill it come to a dead lift in case we shall be brought before * Princes and Rulers to give an account of what we doe or desire And 4. you put us upon too unreasonable a taske to satisfie you in all that we DOE or DESIRE First make your particular exceptions and demands for this or that and then we shall know the better how to shape you an Answer as you see we have here done What are all your books of Law cases all the Volumes of the Casuists to the resolution upon general grounds of incident matters which could not be ruled till they happened and yet the Government of States is one and the doctrine of the Scripture in all generally necessary poynts cleare And we desire you not too too much to grow upon us when you see we are so coming and free The fourth Interrogatory This is much like the next before For that was about Ministers power to gather Churches this concerning the peoples power in uniting themselves in a Church choosing their Minister erecting such a Government as they conceive most sutable to the Scripture And so all manner of hereticks may set up Churches and all manner of heresies sects be brought in I answer as before A Church is a Citie of God which by her Charter becomes a Citie being called of God and by the same Charter the Scripture chuseth her own Officers and sets up no other government but what her Charter prescribes If any other doe otherwise and doe pervert the Scripture it is not to be imputed to the Church of Christ Her liberties are no law for others licentiousnesse It was so in the Apostles times and the next ages after The true Churches liberties were no true cause of so many heresies no more then the Christians of old were the cause of the calamities of the Citie or Empire of Rome because Nero and other Tyrants falsly charged them and as injuriously dealt with them Nor may we cast away the priviledges of Christians because others abuse them Yea whether we use our priviledges or no errours and heresies will be The Apostles and Apostolick Churches could neither keep nor cast them out as is shewed before But brother where you say that if this liberty of setting up an Independent Church-government be admitted then by the selfe-same reason they must have a like libertie to elect erect what Civil forme of government they please to set up a new Independent Republick Kingdome c. By the selfe-same reason Surely by no reason at all Shew us a reason hereof and take all And you know that Republicks Kingdomes are Independent though not of Churches electing erecting It is unsatisfiable injury and extreame irrationality thus to argue for hath Christ given the same command to his people as such who are not of this world nor their Kingdome as he hath done to them in spirituals which he commands them to practise whosoever forbids 2. They set up no forme but take that which is prescribed which God hath not done in civill government but left it free 1 Pet. 2 Rom. 13. The fifth Interrogatory Herein you make a comparison between Presbyteriall and Independent Churches Why not that as well as this And if this why doe we not shew solid proofe of it I answer We desire to enjoy ours without making comparison with yours For proofe we have shewed sufficient Then to a second Quere the answer is not the Minister alone nor the Congregation alone but both together admit members and set up Christs Government not their own And how ever you make us a Conventicle consisting of inconsiderable ignorant members I beleeve brother Prynne when you shall have any thing to doe with the most contemptible of such Conventicles as you esteeme us you will not altogether find us such as you are pleased to terme us And for Nationall Parliaments States wee honour them with whatsoever honour is due unto them as Gods * Word commandeth us And for a Nationall Councell as this is called to advise not to be peremptory Judges in the matters of God over our consciences wee detract not their due honour too as they are pious and learned men 2. Where you would have them have the same power in a Parliament and Synod that they have in a Church if they be members it is answered that all power is restrained to its own sphere and place so that we may have a greater power in another kind and yet not that as no Parliament man hath the power of a Master of a family in the Parliament though he have a greater The sixth Interrogatory This Interrogatory hath sundry branches the answer whereunto respectively will intimate what they be 1. Wee say as before None of our Ministers doe by any usurped authoritie gather Churches 2. We cannot conceive that any law of the Land is against the setting up of Christs kingdome in the hearts of his people and in those Congregations called and gathered by the voyce of his Word Nor doth the Ministery of Christs word more in this then it did by John Baptist Christ himselfe and his Apostles when they called Christian Congregations out of the Jewes Nationall Church
A VINDICATION OF CHURCHES COMMONLY CALLED INDEPENDENT OR A BRIEFE ANSVVER to two Books the one intituled Twelve considerable serious Questions touching CHURCH-GOVERNMENT The other INDEPENDENCY examined unmasked refuted c. Both lately published by WILLIAM PRINNE of LINCOLNES-Inne Esquire By HENRY BURTON a Brother of his and late Companion in Tribulation MAT. 10. 34 35 36. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth I came not to send peace but a sword For I am come to set a man at variance against his father and the daughter against her mother and the daughter in law against her mother in law And a mans foes shall be they of his owne houshold If any man will come after me let him deny himselfe and take up his crosse daily and follow me Luk. 9. 23. The second Edition Entred and printed according to Order LONDON Printed for Henry Overton in Popes-head Alley 1644. To Mr. WILLIAM PRINNE c. MY deare Brother and late companion in tribulation you propound your twelve Questions to all sober minded Christians cordially affecting a speedy setled Reformation and brotherly Christian union in all the Churches as you write in Front and myselfe being one of these and no other you shall find me doe with the right hand take your Propositions as made to me among the rest craving your leave to returne you a brotherly Answer And brotherly in nothing more then by a candid and Christian dealing with you all along and that also in a matter of such high moment as concernes the kingdome and glory of Jesus Christ The zeale whereof is that alone which puts me upon this task it being otherwise far beyond my thoughts that you and I having been fellow-sufferers and spectacles to the world upon that tragicall stage of Antichristian tyranny should ever come upon the Theatre as Antagonists one against the other about the Kingdome of Jesus Christ But surely as an Antagonist against you I come not but in the bowells of a brother And had not the Book had your name in the Front my stomack had not stooped so low as to take it up or downe But because most men are apt to take all upon trust where they find Mr. Prinnes name engaged and the Cause being so precious as it hath by right taken up my whole heart to become an Advocate to plead the excellency of it I could not though the meanest of all but for the love of Christ constraining me and by his grace assisting undertake this taske Otherwise unwilling in hoc ulcere esse unguis as the Roman Orator said in another case And this Answer was brought to the birth soone after yours but it wanted a Midwife whereof you have plenty And I have had many interruptions Nor am I so quick of foot as you But I may say as Ierome once to young Augustin Bos lassus fortiùs figit pedem And so in the spirit of love I come to your Booke A VINDICATION OF CHURCHES COMMONLY CALLED INDEPENDENT YOu are for a speedy accomplishment of a Reformation And so am I and so our late Covenant taken binds every man to begin with himselfe and those under him and each to prevent other in the worke But yet this is sooner said then done For * shall a Nation be borne at once Shall a corrupt prophane polluted Land not yet washed from her old superstitions not yet wained from the Aegyptian fleshpots not yet wrought off from the spirit of bondage become all on a sudden a Reformed Nation But yet Optandum est ut fiat conandum est ut fiat to use Augustins words of the Conversion of the Jewes It were to be wished and should be indâ—voured But as Rome was not built in one day nor the mystery of iniquitie perfected in one day so neither can Rome be so easily pulled downe in one day nor can England become a Mount Sion in one day first the old rubbish will require some time to be removed out of your Church-walls but how much longer time out of mens hearts where they have been so long so fast incorporated And you know that the materialls of that typicall Temple the timber the stone were all â—ewed first and squared before they came to make up the building Therefore soft and faire The People are generally ignorant of a right Reformation A right Reformation is a setting up of Christs spirituall kingdome first over the hearts and consciences and then over the severall Churches For this the * Carpenters and Masons must be set a work godly and able Ministers must be sought out and sought for of the Lord to fit the crooked timber and rugged stones for the Spirituall Temple For England is generally ignorant of the mysterie of Christs Kingdome the Prelates usurped all suppressed altogether this Spirituall kingdom no Ministers durst so much as mutter a word of it Who durst say that mens Consciences are subject to none but Christ That Christ is the only Law-giver of his Church That the Churches of Christ ought not to be burthened with any humane ordinances in Gods Worship That all humane rites and ceremonies invented by men and imposed on men in Gods service are all a * will-worship condemned by the Apostle And the like And yet wee deny not that every member in a Church is to be subject to the Officers thereof holding out the Word for conscience sake Hebr. 13. 17. Now if the People have not heard of Christ thus a King no not to this day in most Congregations of England do heare or understand any thing of Christs kingly Office over Consciences and Churches as whereupon a right reformation doth principally depend how can such a Reformation be speedily set up when the preaching up of Christs Kingdome is altogether silent as if Ministers mouths were not yet freed from their old muzzle Therefore I conceive if the better heed be not taken there may be more hoste to a Reformation then good speed when among so many Congregations so many thousands in England very few would be found to have on the Wedding garment A Reformation therefore such as God requires will necessarily require longer time yet that we may not go blind-fold about it You tell us that importunity of some reverend friends hath drawn from you your digested subitane apprehensions of these distracting Controversies Who those reverend friends are it matters not But had I been accounted worthy to be reckoned among those reverend friends to have been made acquainted with such a purpose I should have used all importunity seasoned with strong reasons to have disswaded you from those subitane apprehensions And seeing I come to know them though somewhat too late in that they cannot be recalled admit your self were Aristotle and your friend Plato yet I will say Amicus Aristotles Amicus Plato sed magis amica veritas And therefore I must be plaine with you otherwise I should neither love you nor your friend nor yet the truth
government as in Davids time the service of God was in greater state and externall pomp when the Temple was built then it was before in the Tabernacle whereby it may appear that there was a liberty left to David to alter the form of worship so as was sutable to the Regall state But I answer Here was no liberty left to man to alter any thing in the worship of God or in the Church-government For God was so exact in this that he would not leave it to David himself though both a King and a Prophet and a man after Gods own heart to set up what worship he pleased in the Temple but God gave him an exact patterne of all and that not onely by his Spirit but in writing that he might neither adde nor omit in the least tittle 1 Chron. 28. And you know it was never left to the Kings of Judah to do the least thing in point of Reformation but onely to see that the Priests do all strictly not any thing as seemed good to them but all according to the precise rule of the Law 2 Chron. 31. Now was the great Law-giver so strict under the old Testament and is he grown more remisse under the New In Ezekiels vision of the Temple or Church in the time of the Gospel Ezek. 43. 10 11. wee reade of a patterne form fashion of everie particular thing of the House of God which is his Church exactly set down and measured by Gods own speciall direction Or are men more wise and more faithfull now then David was that Christ should trust every Nation with such a liberty as this to alter and diversifie Church-government and Discipline so as might be most agreeable to this or that Kingdoms Common-weales Countreys custome commodity conveniencie And as for your Nationall Church here mentioned we shall take a just measure of it when we come to your ninth Question And whereas you quote in the Margine 1 Cor. 14. 40. 11. 34. on which you ground your liberty to form your Church-government Discipline sutably to each particular Civill government Alas brother these very Scriptures our Prelates abused to maintain their unlimited liberty of setting up their rites and ceremonies as sutable to the Civil government which absurdity I have fully refelled in my Reply to Canterburies Relation Whereas the Apostle there exhorteth that all things be done decently and in order according to those rules they had received of him to which agreeth the other place alledged by you Other things will I set in order when I come as Titus 1. 5. He left Titus in Crete that he might set in order the things that remained but all according to the Apostles direction for Church-government and choice of Officers And we should have a mad world of it if civill States in severall Countreys should have liberty to frame Church-government and Discipline as should most sute with their particular conditions This liberty is that which both Ecclesiasticall and Civill States usurping turned the spirituall Kingdom of Christ over Consciences and Churches into a temporal and secular Kingdom or rather indeed an Anti-christian Tyranny or Hierarchy so as by this means it came to passe that the second Beast ascending out of the earth to wit the Pope Revel. 13. 11. commands the inhabitants of the earth to make an image that is to set up a forme of Religion and Church-government sutable to the Image of the first Beast to wit the Imperiall State of Rome And thus came to be erected the Hierarchicall Church-government in all pomp and points sutable with the Romane Monarchy So dangerous is that libertie which brings such bondage According to that Licentia sumus omnes deteriores this brings not liberty but licentiousnesse Your second Question is Whether if any Kingdome or Nation shall by a Nationall Councell Synod and Parliament upon serious debate elect such a publick Church-government Rites Discipline as they conceive to be most consonant to Gods Word to the Laws Government under which they live and manners of their people and then settle them by a generall Law all particular Churches members of that Kingdome and Nation be not therefore actually obliged in point of * conscience and Christianity readily to submit thereto and no wayes to seek an exemption from it under pain of being guilty of arrogancie schisme contumacie and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences I answer That is Whether the Kingdome and Nation of England c. The summe is you would here make way for a politicall State Church-government or a mixt Church-government partly according to Gods word and partly to the Laws and government under which we live and partly to the manners of the people Humano capiti cervicem jungere equinam Or populout placerent c. Truly brother your very question is hereticall you must pardon the expression which otherwise would not come home to the full truth And your word Elect imports no lesse For Elect taken in that sense as you here apply it to set up a form of Religion of Church-government and Discipline with Rites and ceremonies sutable to the Laws and customes of a State and manners of the people and AS MEN CONCEIVE is of the same signification with {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which signifieth a taking up an heresie upon humane election or as you say As they conceive For you say not Such a Church-government c. as is most consonant to Gods word but such as they conceive to be most consonant So as you hang your Church-government upon mens conceit or opinion of consonancy with Gods word and not upon a reall and essentiall consonancy Just like the Prelate of Canterbury who in his Relation hangs the credit of the Scripture upon the Author and the opinion we have saith he of his sufficiency Which I have noted in my Reply But thus you open a wide sluce to let in an ocean of inundation of all sorts of Religion into all parts of the vvorld vvhen every Religion shall be measured by the line of mans conception what men CONCEIVE agreeable to Gods word Thus might Henry 4. the late French King to make his way the easier to the Crown through so many difficulties apostatize from the Protestant Religion and turn to Popery as conceiving it sutable to the word of God to comply with the State of France and the manners of the people for the establishing of his kingdome as he conceived though he was deceived by becoming himself a Popish King And so Jeroboam with his Counsell might CONCEIVE it agreeable enough to Gods word to set up his Calves most sutable to the new laws and customes of that State and to the manners of the people who are apt enough to embrace idolatry and superstition as Ephraim willingly walked after the commandment Hos. 5. 11. And so in the rest Now that is an heresie which is an error conceived and maintained against the word of God
of Christ under his onely jurisdiction and government So as herby great mischiefes may redound even to the purest Church when once things come to be carried by the vote of a generall or Classicall Assembly of Divines swaying things besides the Rule and stretching them beyond their line And therefore famous was that saying of Nazianzens * That he never saw any good to come of generall Councels because commonly Camelion-like they change their hue with the nearest object complying with the condition of the present times and State as suppose Prelaticall Spirits should turne to be your Presbyterians or as when in case the Lord Christ shall resume his Kingdome over his Churches in a civill State we should perhaps see some of your Presbyterians as fast to turn Independants were the preferments sutable But some may object that one Church standing by it selfe is more subject to fall into errour then when combined with other Churches To which I answer That every particular Church injoying its own freedome without any injoyned combination with other Churches may much longer preserve it selfe from danger of errour when it hath its free choise in matters of difference or difficulty to consult onely with those Churches which it knows to be most sound and orthodox then when it is fast bound and incircled with this or that combination of Churches being in number twelve or twenty or more or lesse whose votes must carry every controversie according to the severall humours of such and such at all adventure And brother Prynne the world is not so plentifull of sound spirits as to supply every Hundred in the Land with twelve or twenty able and godly Ministers to be of a combination Nay you may observe what poore shifts are used for the supplying of places with godly and able Ministers which are grown so geason that the City now is faine to be supplyed with plundered countrey Ministers in stead of their out-cast Malignants And suppose all these to be as good as they should be where shall those country-places be supplyed And besides such is the penury of good Ministers if not of care to provide better if possible that such as are for their demerits cast out of one place are for I wot not what merits put upon some other people where their good qualities are not knowne Being such as verifie the Proverb {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} They change their mansion but not their manners And besides all this he is one very meanly gifted now adayes that will be wooed and won to take a Benefice under a hundred or sixescore pounds And brother why should godly Ministers indeed be yoked with such earth-wormes and Mammonists as are in some Parishes and as some of your Presbyterian combinations would necessitate us unto If you say if things goe amisse in lesser Classes they may be remedied in a generall Assembly then I say there is the like reason of a generall Assembly that there is of all the severall classes put together For totius partium eadem est ratio if all the members be corrupt so also must the whole body be Therefore the case must needs be hard when one or two Churches in a classis or combination that are sound should be bound to the decisions of the rest being unsound and so for the generall Assembly in the like proportion The fifth Question It is reduced thus That whose grounds and reasons tend inevitably to endanger overthrow and embroyle Ecclesiasticall or civill formes of Government ought not to be suffered But such is the Independent church-government it tends inevitably c. Therefore it ought not to be suffered I deny the Assumption The grounds and reasons of true church-government do not in their own nature tend to the indangering overthrowing and embroiling of Ecclesiasticall or civill formes of Government Horm confess sect. 11. of the confess of Aâ—spurg art 7. Power Ecclesiasticall no more hindreth the civill then the skill of musicke neither is it to be confounded with civill And ibid. They to wit the Prelates transforme the church into a humane Government For they would doe all in imitation of civill Government But if they produce any such effect it is onely accidentall and the maine cause is in such Ecclesiasticall or civill bodies when they shew some antipathy in their constitution to Christs kingdome and government by their opposing or oppressing of it Hereupon Christ saith * Think not that I am come to send peace on the earth I came not to send peace but a sword And it was the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdome both by Christ and his Apostles for which they were exclaimed against and persecuted as troublers of the State both Ecclesiastick and Politick as movers of sedition and perverters of the people and the like And will you thereupon conclude that the preaching of the Gospel and setting up of Christs kingdome in his churches is a troubler of the State and a mover of sedition and a seducer of the people because Hierarchicall Government hath an Antipathy with Christs Spirituall Kingdome and Church-government The sixth Question The summe where of is That which from the beginning of the preaching of the Gospel downwards till this present age had no being in the world can doubtlesse be no Church-Government of Christs or his Apostles But such say you is the Government of Independent Churches Therefore not Christs or the Apostles Church-government I deny your Assumption And for further answer thereto I referre you to my Answer to your third and fourth Question where is cleerely proved that all the Churches founded and planted by Christ and his Apostles were in themselves respectively absolute and free Churches which though they had communion with all their Sister-Churches yet you can never prove your classicall or Synodicall Jurisdiction of either a Provinciall Church as you call it or a Generall Counsell over every particular Church to have the least footing or beeing at all in the Scripture 2. In the Ecclesiasticall Histories for the first 200. yeers we finde as was noted above sufficient ground for it but none for the combined coercive Presbytery let that be shewn afterwards indeed as times grow worse you finde your Pâ—râ—archall Metropoliticall Prelaticall Nationall Provinciall church-governments Generall and Provinciall councels subordination and subjection of the lesser Churches to the greater by which very meanes the Papall Antichristian kingdome came gradually to be erected as is noted before but can you shew us the least print of one footstep in the Word of God of any such Hierarchie or of any such subordination and subjection of one Church to another And if the mystery of iniquity began to worke even in the Apostles own times which was the very Hierarchie it selfe in the affection of Primacy as we see practised by Diâ—trepes who is noted to bee {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} a lover of Primacy or preheminence and
much the more when they consider this is a time of Reformation and we have all taken a covenant each to go before other in reforming not only our selves but all others within our line according to the word of God And again the case between our Reformation at this time and that of the Jewes church is much alike For as th a was the Gospell-Reformation so is this as that was a gathering of such churches out of that of the Jewes as acknowledged Christ to be their onely King and Law-giver to govern consciences and churches by his Word when the rest of that church even the main body of it did reject Christ and renounce him for their King this being the very Title set over him on his crosse for which they crucified him So the preaching up of Christs Kingdome in these dayes is that which calleth and gathereth those unto Christ who acknowledge him alone for their King to govern them and this out of those that doe not or will not submit unto his Kingly government but depend upon the sole determination of men what kinde of church-governement they will set up in the Land which you tell us must be sutable to the lawes and customes of the Realme and manners of the people But there is yet one thing more for which you say you can see no ground and that is particular church-government Why brother why should the lawfulnesse of this be doubted whether explicit or implicit It is the churches wisedome and care yea conscience and duty too as we humbly conceive to admit of none but such as can give some account of the worke of grace wrought in them though but in the least degree yet in truth so far as we may discern them to be Saints for such onely are fit members of a church or body of Christ so as to partake of those holy Ordinances of Christ which none but visible Saints ought to partake of And who are fit to receive the Seales of the covenant but such as professe to be in covenant And surely if any shall refuse to make this profession of their being in covenant as being ashamed thereof with what conscience can the Church admit them into fellowship And you know this is a time of Reformation and we have long been under a yoke of Antichristian-government and of humane ordinances in the worship of God wherein we have all violated our vow and covenant made in our names in our Baptisme Now doth not reason require that we should renew our covenant in our own persons when we come to enter into the way of Reformation and that in as full a manner as possibly we can And when the people of God came out of Babylon to inhabit Ierusalem again they made a covenant among themselves when seeking the way with their faces thitherward they say Come and let us joyn ourselves to the Lord in a perpetuall covenant that shall not bee forgotten The case is ours in a great measure who are now inquiring the war to Sion with our faces thitherward and shall we be abashed to come to Sion from all the reliques of Babylon and not incite one another as they did to enter into a perpetuall covenant with the Lord Christ as our onely King not to be forgotten And the like wee read Ezra 10. 5. and Nehem. 9. 38. so did King Asa 2 Chron. 15. 12. Now if any require an example hereof in the New Testament I answer what needs it when wee have it in the Old What example have we in the New Testament for baptizing of Infants Yet having a commandement in the Old for circumcising the Infants of beleeving Abraham as being included in the same covenant with faithfull Abraham the intaile of this Covenant never yet out off but reaching to all Abrahams seed walking in the steps of Abrahams faith now under the Gospel infants of beleeving parents professing to be in covenant have the same right unto baptisme as being within the covenant which the infants of beleeving Abraham had unto circumcision in stead whereof baptisme by Gods institution succeeded and this by a strict charge and command from God Gen. 17. 13 14. which is as strong now for baptizing of Infants of beleeving parents as it was to the infants of beleeving Abraham for circumcision Again what example yea or precept is there of giving women the Lords Supper in the New Testament yet upon good consequence it is drawn from thence But this by the way And to conclude this point what reason can any man bring against this particular Church-covenant And if any doe disrelish it they are onely such as take a disgust of the way itselfe and then no marvell if every thing about it be quarrelled and questioned though no other reason can be given of it but a Nolumus such as the Jewes gave when they said of Christ Nolumus * We will not have this man to reigne over us Which speech was the more notorious as being delivered by an Embassage a solemne act of State of the Eldership and they his own Citizens though a little after vers. 27. he declares them his enemies and for this very thing that they would not hee should reigne over them commandeth them to be brought and slaine before him But this by the way though not unworthy of wise mens sad observation Object But it will be said wee have covenanted already in the Nationall Covenant Answ. This is against things upon supposition that we were convinced of the evill of them but not about our own persons as enquiring whether we indeed are willing to give up ourselves to the Lord Iesus 2. This was put in by such outward authority that many for feare tooke it which a Church-covenant under the Gospell where the people are to be such as come willingly will not beare for under the Law indeed there was another order but appointed by God that they might be forced to the covenant that they had received in their fathers but our fathers were over-awed and secondly no such order now The eighth Question This question though somewhat involved and perplexed with many branches yet the scope being to prove a Nationall Church and so a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular congregations persons ought to be subordinate and thereby an apparent subversion of the Novell Independent invention These are your words The whole I reduce into form thus Where there bee infallible proofes of Nationall Churches there of necessity must be a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular congregations persons ought to be subordinate to the apparent subversion of the NOVEL INDEPENDENT INVENTION But there be infallible proofes of Nationall Churches as the Catholick Church the Nationall Church of the Jewes the Synodall Assembly of the Apostles Acts 15. who made and sent binding decrees to the Churches seconded with all Oecumenicall Nationall Provinciall Councels Synods and the Church-government exercised throughout the world
this question as I find them scattered along I shall glean them and so bundle them up for a conclusion at this time For this question seems to be a Lerna of Queries And first you quarrell the Title of Independencie Truly brother none of all those whom you thus intitle doe at all glory in this name so as to give you thanks for your so often stiling them thus in one poore sheet of paper seeing thâ—y cannot imagine you doe it honoris gratia while every where you set it as a brand Notwithstanding we are not so ashamed of it as utterly to disclaime it and that for two reasons First for distinction sake between us and that which you call your Presbyteriall government The second is because this word Independent is to signifie that we hold all particular Churches of Christ to bee of equall authority and none to have or exercise jurisdiction over another but that each Church is under Christs government as the sole Head King Lord Law giveâ— thereof But wee would not that you should give us this as a nick name or a name of reproach or badge of scorne noâ— that you should call us so as if we denied subjection to civill authority in matters of civill government nor yet that you should mean such an Independeâ—cie as if we held not good correspondence with all sister-sister-Churches by way of conseciation consultation communion communication mutuall consolation supportation and in a word in all things duties offices as wherein Christs Kingdom is held up the graces of the Churches exercised the liberties of each Church preserved intire which is the glory of Christ which we have touched before And therefore brother you mightily mistake the matter when you interpret Independency as not needing both the Communion and assistance of other persons Nations Churches Then secondly you question Whether the Nationall Covenant dothin sundry respects strongly ingage the Nation against Independency Truly brother not at all so long as all our Reformation is to be reduced to and regulated by the word of God And that is a sure foundation whereon our Independencie dependeth In which respect the Nation is by the Covenant â—â—gâ—ged for Independencie Thirdly you queree whether if Independencie rightly taken still as before if stript of all disgâ—ising pretences be not Pharisaicall vainglorious selfe-conceitednesse c. Here brother you lash us with a whip of many cords but that our armour is pâ—ooâ— So you have done more then ten times yea all along And that all this should come from a friend a brother a suffeâ—er from a companion counsellor how hard is it to be born 〈…〉 you tell us of disguising pretences if stript and for this you have provided an unmaâ—king for us O brother we have no such dâ—sguisings as to feare your unmaskings We may in this boldly answere with the Apostle 1 I hess 2. 3. 4. 5. And for Pharisaicall Spirituall pride vain-glory singularity selfe-constitednesse of superlative holinesse which as dirt you throw so liberally in our face To this brother I will say no more but this Sâ— sat est accusasse quis innoeens erit It a bare and malicious accuâ—aâ—ion be eâ—ouâ—h to fasten a crime who shall be innocent And did you ever enter into our hearts to see what secret spirituall tumours and apostumations be there and if not how come you presently in the very same sentence and with the same breath to blow all this besmearing dust into your owne face For you charge us with passing uncharitable censures upon mens hearts and spiritual â—states of which say you God never made us Iudges and forbids us for to judg because he onely knowes mens hearts as was noted before Now then brother why doe you thus judge the hearts and spirituall estates of your brethren Consider it well in cold blood And brother what doe you see in the Independencie that you should thus judg them The Tree is knowne by the Fruits Are they ambitions of preferments of glory of the world of favour of great ones of praise of men that doe voluntarily forsake all and strip themselves of all to follow naked Christ Pharisees indeed loved the prayse of men more then the praise of God That 's Pharisaicall so in the rest Therefore brother tell not the world what malice may suggest unto you to think of us but what you â—â—e or observe in us And yet brother the â—nâ—e of charity is that you should first tell your brother privately oâ— his fault before you blaze it to the world But thus at least we come to know our â—aâ—â—t And what is it Wee doe say you dâ—â—m our selves too transcendently holâ— sâ—â—stified and religious aâ—ovâ—o heâ—s that we esteem them altogether unworthy of yea whoâ—â— exclude them from our Communion ourch-society as Publicans heathens or pâ—ofâ—ne â—ersons though perhaps as good or better then our selvs unlesse they will submit to their Church-covenants government refâ—sing â—l true brotherly familiarity society with them So you Now brother Pryn I confesse I am one of thâ—se whom you call Independents and did you ever observe any such supercisious strangâ—nesse of â—â—râ—â—age in me towards you and other of your and my friend 〈…〉 e zealous against Independents then your selfe â—s youchange us withall Have there not been many interchangeable invitations between you and me with loving acceptations whereby we have enjoyed mutuall society in all friendly and brotherly entertainment saving â—â—ill some quarrels about 〈…〉 way but ever parting friends And more frequent it had been had your occasions and sometimes mine owne permitted And neither at this day since these youâ— invectives came forth though they were no small griefe to me and that even for your sakâ— am I become a greater stranger to you either in face or affection then I was be oâ—â— For I am so perswaded of your good nature thar did you truly epprehend and dive into the mystery of Christs Kingly government in his Churches and Children certainly you would never have thus sharpened and imbittered your style against your brethren the Lord open your eyes to see it But however brother either be more moderate in censuring or else censure not at alâ— without juâ—â— cause But we exclude say you as good or better then our selvs from communion and Church-society with us Surely it may be so but brother we exclude them not but they exclude themselves And you give the reason because they wil not submit to the Churches government But it doth not hence follow that wee therefore deem either our selves so transcendeâ—tly holy as you say or others altogether unworthy But brother we esteem the government of Christs Church so holy as we cannot think them fit to be admitted be they never so good that think so slightly of the way and of them that walk in it that they refuse to agree to walk in this way with the people of God Would you admit of a member into your family who
That the maintaining of such a liberty as you assume here is so we have in part shewed already from the Scripture whence you are not able to bring the least shadow of reason to maintain it Nay we need go no further for the disfranchising of this your liberty but your own words Your words are asistata they cannot cohere in any true Theologicall sense For first we ought not to assume or pretend a liberty as left us of God when we want our evidence and are not able to produce our Charter out of the Magna Charta the Scripture And this brother not you nor any man can do Again nothing is more presumptuous then to attempt to mingle heaven earth together that is to mingle Christs Kingdom with the kingdoms of the world or to these to frame and fashion that which what is it else but to set up a Babylonish Church-government Did the Apostles thus Did they frame Christs Kingdom Church-government to the laws and customes of the Romance Empire Or did they vary their orders for Church-government Discipline according to the different manners and customes of those Nations countreys or Provinces where they planted their Churches Had they one order for the Church of Corinth and another for the Churches of Galatia and a third for the Churches of Asia and the rest No But so ordain I in all Churches saith the Apostle And concerning the collection for the Saints as I have given order to the Churches of Galatia even so do ye So also for making of Ministers and other Church-officers Act. 1. 14. 23. Again Your Church-government must be conceived to be consonant to Gods Word yet with this restriction or limitation that it be also consonant to the Laws and Government under which we live You speak indeed like a pure Lawyer one that will stand for your Profession were this the way to uphold it But cannot your Law and our Gospel cotton together unlesse the Gospel weare the Laws livery like to your Serjeants gown made up of two severall colours ' or unlesse Law and Gospel be woven together into a linsey woolsey garment But what if your Law present stand still in force for Church-government without being repealed Must the Gospel be brought again under your Prelaticall Church-government Or rather why should not a generall law to use your words be enacted to inhibite all formes of Church-government and Discipline which are not every way consonant to Gods Word without this addition And to the Laws and Government under which we live For certainely if the Lawes and Government of the State under which we live be good and just there is no need why you should put upon Christs kingly Government in his Church such hard conditions as not to be admitted but so farre as it is consonant to mans Laws As Tertullian said when upon the Emperour Tiberius his motion to the Romane Senate that Christ might be admitted and enrowled among Romes gods and the Senate refused because they had made a Law that none should be chosen for a god unlesse first propounded by the Senate Ergo nisi homini placuerit Deus non erit Deus Therefore if it please not man God shall not be God So let it be lawfull for me to say If it please not man not the Senate Christ shall not be King his kingdome shall have no place in this or that Nation As if the good Laws of a civill State and the good Laws of Christs kingdome could not ought not to stand together in their distinct forms unmixed when certainly a State stands strongest while most consonant to Gods Word and to the Church-government and Discipline of Christ and not when Christs kingdome and Government is made sutable to the Laws and customes of the State Famous was that Answer of Eleutherius Bishop of Rome to Lucius King of Britaine when this Countrey of Britaine first received the faith being the first Province that received it where the Gospel began freely to be preached without impeachment or inhibition of the Prince as the * Story saith and that without any ceremonies at all King Lucius sending to Eâ—eutherius for some modell or form of Church-Government and Discipline he received this Answer That Christ had left sufficient Order in the Scripture for the Government of the Church and not onely for that but also for the regiment of his whole Realme if he would submit himself to follow that Rule You require of us saith he the Romane Ordinances with the Imperiall Statutes also to be sent unto you which you desire to practise The Romane Laws we may find to be faulty but Gods Laws never You have received of late through Gods mercy in the Realme of Britaine the law and faith of Christ you have with you both volumes of the Scriptures Out of them therefore by Gods grace and the counsell of your Realm take you a law and by that law through Gods sufferance rule your kingdome Now this Eleutherius being the 14th Bishop of Rome by Platina's account it shews unto us the great difference between that and after-times wherein the Mystery of Iniquity grew up to its height in assuming such an unlimited liberty to set up such a Church-Government and ceremonies of humane invention as were haled in by the head and shoulders But brother Prinne you see here how in those purer primitive times even the Bishop of Rome himselfe was so farre from admitting a Church-Government sutable to the severall lawes and customes of every Nation as you would have it as he tels King Lucius he hath both the Testaments by the rule whereof he should not onely see the Church to be governed but his own Realme also Ergo the Kingly government of Christ in his Church is not to be fashioned and moulded according to the lawes and customes of temporall and civill States but contrarily the lawes of Civill States are to be reduced to the rule of Gods Word But you adde also And manners of their people that is in their severall Countries and Common-weales Surely this reflects mine eye upon that Reformation begun in King Edwards reigne But now what Church-Government and Discipline was to be set up Why the manners of the people must be the line and plummet to regulate this building by The people of England had beene so long rooted in a superstitious Egyptian soyle but because fat and filling their flesh-pots with Onions and Garlick they could the better brook the burthens which their Taskmaâ—â—ers the Prelates inured their shoulders withall And withall they must have their Masse-Service though translated out of the Roman into the English language This in King Edward his letter to the Cornishmen standing up for their Masse-book stilled the babes when they understood the English Service-booke was no other then the Romish Masse clad in an English weed though since it hath put off many of those ragges but not all it should So much it importeth to have
an eye to the peoples manners and how they stand affected When the Lord Cromwell had set forth the Primmer or Psalter without the Letany all the Popishly affected which were not a few could not be quiet till they had cried up the Letany again into its old place So as in sine through the love of superstition in the people and the love of the world in the Prelats alias the Reformers many of whom afterwards God reformed and purged in the flames of Martyrdome such a Reformation was set up as for Church-government and Discipline onely translating the Popes headship and setting it upon the Kings shoulders was the very same with that which was in Henry 8. his dayes and is at this day in Rome and did so well sute with the Civill Government and manners of the people that a Generall Law was enacted for the ratifying of that Prelaticall Government and Discipline which hath bred such manners in the people generally to this day as if another Reformation shall be set up wherein the peoples manners shall be no lesse looked upon then in the former as you here doe more then seeme to plead for I can conjecture if not certainly divine what a Reformation both for Church-Government and Discipline your Church of England is like to have For if you aske the Prelaticall party consisting of multitudes of their Priests and of their ignorant and prophane people together with all the Kings Army they will all with one voyce and vote roare it out at the Canons mouth W will have the Bishops Church-government and Discipline continued without alteration If ye aske the ordinary Protestant professors at large they cry No no not that but we will have such a Church-government as under which we may injoy no lesse libertie for our manners then we had under the Prelates But you referre us to the serious debate of a Nationall Counsell Synod Parliament But yet give us leave to put a vast difference between all these and the Scripture Christs owne voyce If they truely informe us of the minde of Christ in the Scripture we will blesse God for it but yet if we can find out the mind of Christ by his immediate voyce we dare not suspend our beliefe and practise of it until we have it at the second hand from men And should we waite never so long upon the issae of their debate commended unto us to be such as men conceive to be agreeable and consâ—nant to Gods Word yet for as much as we dare not * pinne our soules upon mens sleeves as not knowing as one said whither they might possibly carry them therefore we must examine all mens determinations in matters of Religion by * searching the Scriptures and laying every thing to this line and rule For the Bereans are commended as the more noble in that they examined diligently and daily even the Apostles doctrine by the Scriptures and much more are wee to try the spirits of men that are not Apostles and so not immediately inspired by the Holy Ghost with infallibility of truth as never any Generall Councell after the Apostles hath been So as you know how miserably and shamefully Generall Councels have erred The first Councell of Nice consisting of 318. Bishops how did they all agree to bring in a Doctrine of Devills prohibiting Priests marriage had not one Confessor Paphnutius by evidence of Scripture and reason cryed it downe and so swayed the whole Councell And you know very well that Generall Councels as well as Nationall have not infallibilitie of judgement in all things And it cannot be unknowne to you that even this Assembly of Divines are of different judgements about Church-governement and Discipline nor have they perhaps had so much time since their being under the Prelacy as to be throughly informed of the way of Churches commonly called Independent but that many of them may possibly gaine much more knowledge of it by spending some more time and study in it But Sir besides all this you seeme to lead them such a way should they follow you as would necessarily bring them into an inevitable and inextricable errour in case they should elect such a publick Church-government Rites Discipline as they conceive to be most consonant to Gods Word to the Lawes Government under which we live and manner of the people For if they looke upon the manner of the people which they must needs finde to bee for the most part very loose to speake nothing of Ignorants and Popish Malignants some men might conceive that such a Church-government and Discipline were most sutable as doth most comply with and give some indulgence to such manners as cannot easily be brought to enter in at the straite gate and narrow way that leads into Christs kingdome And whatsoever Church-government and Discipline comes not full home in all things to the word of God is not that which is consonant thereunto and so not pleasing unto God and the more consonant it is to Gods Word the more strict and holy it will be found to be and so the lesse consonant to the common prophane manners of this Nation at this day Worthy of our observation is that of the Lord to the Prophet Jeremy Jere. 15. 19. If thou take forth the pretions from the vile thou shalt be as my mouth let them returne unto thee but returne not thou unto them Whereupon the most learned Interpreter as the learned Beza constantly styles him Calvin among many other excellent observations on this place thus concludeth Summa est veritatem Dei non debere flecti ad hominum arbitrium quae Deus non mutatur ita nec verbum ejus ullam varietatem admittit The summe is That the truth of God ought not to bee bended according to mans will or conceit because God is not mutable so neither doth his Word admit of any change Now the forme of Church-governement and Discipline laid downe in the New Testament is a Doctrine of Christ and no more alterable according to the varieties of mens customes and manners in all nations and ages then the Gospel it selfe is which the Apostle would not have to bee altered into another Gospel though another Gospel cannot bee as neither another kingdome of Christ another Church-governement another Church-discipline ought not to be but that alone which we find in Gods Word which must not bee reduced or conformed as a nose of waxe to which the Papists as Hosius and Pighius doe compare the Scripture to the fashions of worldly governments Rom. 12. 2. and popular manners but these must be conformed to the Scripture Hence it may appeare how rough your conclusion of this Question is if to such a generall law as you propose all particular Churches members of this Kingdome and Nation should not yeeld to be actually obliged in point of conscience and Christianitie and readily to submit thereunto and no waies to seeke an exemption from it under paine of being guiltie
And so your Argument by crossing shins with it selfe falleth to ground Again your Presbyteriall government hath neither best nor any sufficient warrant as wee judge in the New Testament no nor any warrant at all in Gods word But the true forme of Church-government hath both sufficient and without comparison best warrant in the Scripture And in truth whereas you oppose presbyteriall and Independent as you call it one against the other let me tell you that that which you call Independent is the onely true originall and primitive Presbyteriall Which Presbytery is proper and peculiar to every particular Church of Christâ— and is not a Presbytery collective of many Churches by way of jurisdiction one or many over each or of a Nationall Church as you terme it For neither of these can you find either in the New Testamens or in the Old In the old we read of one Church to wit that of the Nation of the Jewes But that whole Church was one intire congregation Act. 7. 38. they had one Church officer over all it is called the Tabernacle of the congregation in the singuler and they all assembled three times in the yeare at Jerusalem in the Temple where they offered Sacrifice and not else where So as the Church was a type of every particular Church of Christ under the New Testament as being both one intire Church and absolute subject to no other form of government but only that of the only Law-giver and Mediator Jesus Christ and no pattern of any such Nationall Church as you would have Every particular Church now consisting of visible Saints is under Christ as the onely Head King Governour Law-giver of it and so is subject to no other jurisdiction then that of Christ his Spirit his Word Were there none other particular Church in the world then one as that of Abrahams Family should it not be a compleat Church untill there were other Churches on whose jurisdiction it should depend though for ordinary Families they cannot have such a number as is requisite to make up a ministeriall body so are bound to unite to others for this end Wee hold communion and consociation of Churches for counsell in doubts and comfort in distresse but we deny any such combination of Churches as whereby the true liberty of every particular Church is taken away And this communion of Churches doth no lesse if not more prevent Heresies Schismes Injustice then your Presbyteriall Nor can you shew reason to the contrary And yet would you have our Churches more perfect then those of the Apostles own planting and gathering as to bee altogether exempted from Heresies Schismes Injustice Did not the Apostle tell the Church of Corinth There must bee Heresies eve among you that they which are approved may be made manifest And could those Primitive Churches after the Apostles preserve themselves from Heresics How soone did the whole world groane and wonder that it was become an Arian And this within the fourth Century after the birth of Christ when the Churches were governed by the Bishops and their Presbyteries And how soone did the Kingdome of the Beast mount up to such a height as it overtopt all the Westerne Churches and brought them under his dominion And for our truly and properly Presbyterian Churches your Independents to which you deny expresse warrant in Scripture the whole New Testament is both an expresse and ample witnesse on our side All those particular Churches which the Apostles planted were all of absolute authority amongst themselves respectively and equall one of the other You can shew unto us no rule or example to the contrary That in Act. 15. is a transcendent and stands alone not to be paralleld and therefore very impertinently objected by many before you as wee shall have occasion to shew afterwards And for pattern in the Primative Churches after the Apostles we are not curious to seeke it in the corrupt current of succeeding ages when we find it the pure fountaine It appeares say the Centurists Cent 1. 7 Titâ—de consociatione Eccles. that the Government of Churches in the second hundreth yeare was almost popular every Church had equall power of ordaining or casting out if neede were those Ministers they had ordâ—ined with other things very materiall in that whole Title as also in the Title de Synodis privatis And for the best reformed Churches if in them we cannot finde that patterne so fully followed as the Scripture holds forth unto us wee cruve leave without prejudice to take it as wee finde it in the Word without the least variation And you may knowâ— in the beginning of Protestant Reformation could they so clearly see in the dawning as wee may now in the meridian if we will but open our eyes The reformed Churches have taken up one or other of them upon the matter the maine things we contend for 1. The Church of Holland receive none to the Table nor have a vote as a member of that Church but such as first give satisfaction to the Elderships and then to the Congregation and 2. have a forme of covenant propounded by them Secondly the French Churches exercise excommunication in their particular congregations though with liberty of appeale And this was the governement of the Primitive Churches in the 2d hundreth yeare as appeares Cent. 2. c. 7. Tit. de Synodis but especially Tit. de consociatione Eccles. So as no long debate neede to be if but Christs word alone may take place without the necessary accommodation of humane Lawes Customes Manners of the people as you doe plead And lastly for appeales in case of Injustice you know brother that if injustice be done in any civill matter if redresse may not be had by the mediation of the Church whereof the parties are members then the Law is open there to appeale for justice And if it be about the Churches censure for some miscarriage of a member towards the Church or any member thereof if the censure bee unjust the party grieved may desire to have his cause heard by some other Churches who may accordingly deale with their Sister-church to require a brotherly account of the whole businesse as is the duty of all the Churches in such cases And if it be in matter of opinion here the appeale lies principally and in the first place to the Scripture as the supreme Judge and if the things be obscure too hard for that Church to resolve by the Scripture then to call in the helpe of other Churches for their best information And in summe brother there is no case can fall out in any Church which hath not as many helpes by a free communion of Churches wherein every Churches peculiar liberties and priviledges are preserved as they ought to be as any you can name to bee in your obligatory combination of Churches wherby the liberty of each Church is by coÌ„mon consent sold over to others by which it ceaseth now to be a free Church
that even above the Apostle John himselfe with other like sutable practises This Mistery growing up and spreading mightily by degrees after the Apostles were dead and so prevailing as a generall deluge over the face of the earth as nothing could bee seene but Diocesan Bishops seas overflowing every where Therefore were there never such Churches extant But suppose there were no examples to be found of it in Church Story which yet we have proved the contrary neverthelesse you know brother when a mans evidences of lands are lost there be publicke Records as the Rowles of Chancerie where they may be found againe And if there they be found will you not allow them because the man cannot otherwise shew them Now we have the sacred Scripture where our Evidences are safely recorded Suffice it then that there we shew them The contrary opinion doth manifestly establish Traditions unwritten as the Papists doe And to give the Reader some intimation how the Churches of Christ came in time and that in short time after the Apostles to lose their liberties I crave leave of you to note that passage in Ambrose who lived within the fourth Century upon 1 Tim. 5. Synagoga postea Ecclesia c. The Iewes Synagogue and afterwards the Christian Church had Elders without whose counsell nothing was done in the Church Which by what neglect it grew out of use I know not unlesse is were perhaps the slâ—ath or rather pride of the Teachers whilst alone they would seeem to be some body So Ambrose the Bishop of Millan confessed I confesse I cannot shew many such instances or records as perhaps your selfe in your multifarious reading may observe But this one from such a reverend and ancient author too of pious memory may serve instead of many considering also that this is the greater rarity and antiquity and much to be wondred at how it escaped the expurgatorie Index by those that were the first fathers of the Mystery of Iniquity that they did not quite expunge this record also that not a pin of the old patterne should remaine Now that the Church this Ancient there speaketh of was particular Congregation answerable to the Synagogue governed by the Counsell of its own Elders cannot be denyed Whereby all men may cleerly see in how short a time the Governement of Churches instituted by Christ and his Apostles came to bee changed from being free Churches to become servile and subject to the usurpation of the greater the Prelates and their clergie now making up the Church as if the congregations themselves were no Churchs as being stripped of all their Rights and Priviledges yea and of Crist their King his Kingdome now being turned into an Oligarcy or Oligarchill Tyranny mixed of two of the worst forms of Government though you seem to put Oligarchy in the ranke of the the best but I suppose you would have said instead of Oligarchy having named Monarchicall and Aristocraticall Democratie Oligarchy being Heterogeneall to the other two But enough of this The seventh Question Thus reduced Those Churches which do not conforme their Church-government to some one or other publike forme of Civill Government dividing themselves into many Parochiall Churches Dioceses Provinces but doe gather Churches not out of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the Chiristian faith and do admit them into the Church by way of Covenant no one example or direct Scripture Reason or Authority can be produced to satisfie conscience of the lawfulnesse of them But such are the Independent Churches they do not conforme as afore Therefore conscience cannot be satisfied of the lawfulnesse of them The Argument or Question containes many branches scarce reducible to one head but I have bundled them in one coard as well as I could. And for answer first this Question is coincident with all that went before and so is already in that respect answered Secondly Your parallell betwixt the civill association and Ecclesiastick is not grounded on Scripture for neither God taught neither the Churches practised any such necessarie union and dependance of one Church on another though they might have done it and had need of it as being in times of persecution which hindered it not no more then it doth in France now 2. You confidently affirm that all Ecclesiasticall Histories testifie so much which is manifestly untrue as hath been shewed before 3. Though churches springing out of other churches had dependence on them what is this to churches that are far distant one from another and never had such a ground of relation one to another Besides the Harmonie of confessions which you quote for you though I finde not that in those places they say any thing to the point yet Sect. 11. cap. of the Keyes that the Keyes are committed to each particular even the least Ecclesiasticall Society Thirdy Christs true churches here on earth are not to be * limited to this or that place as because there are so many Parishes Dioceses Provinces in a civill State therfore those must be so many fixed Parocihall Diocesan Provinciall churches And here Brother Prynne would reduce tanquam ex postliminio the Provinciall Diocesan Parochiall church Government to the same forme it had before Would you have the Provinciall Arichbishops with their Diocesan Bishops and Parochiall clergie or Priests set up again For a Prouince hath relation to its Provinciall and a Diocese to its Diocesan and a Parish to speak in the old Dialect to its Parish-Priest Da veniam verbo And as for division of Provinces Dioceses and Parishes into so many churches you know where and when it began For in the yeer 267. Dyonisius Bishop of Rome made this division which division turned the churches into a Babylonish confusion when now all that dwelt together in every Parish and so in every Diocese who ever they were Tag and Rag must make up a church as so many members do one body whereas the churches planted by the Apostles were called and gathered out of the wide world where the Word of God came and took place So as not every citie became a church but so many as were called in every citie Paul writes not to all in Corinth but to the church there consisting of the Saints only But you object the gathering of churches not of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the christian faith of which forme of congregating churches you say you could never discern example or any direct Scripture to satisfie conscinces We would gladly say Amen to that assertion that the whole Nation is christian established in the faith but if not you dispute ex falso supposito May it please you then brother to take notice of the example both of John Baptist and of Christ himself and of the Apostles who * all of them did call and gather christian churches out of the Jewes church which might suffice to satisfie any mans conscience in this point and so
in all Christian Realmes States from their first reception of the Gospell till this present compared with twelve places of Scripture at the least c. Therefore there must be of necessity a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular Congregations persons ought to be subordinate to the apparent subversion of the Novell Independent Inventions Now for answer to this large Argument brieflly And first to the Proposition I deny that you can bring any infallible proofes or one proof that there either are or ever have been any Nationall Churches by any other institution but meerly humane nor any one of divine institution but onely that of the Jewes in the old Testament and now wholly dissolved of which we have spoken sufficiently before And which also was not onely Nationall but in a manner Oecumenick and universall as appeares Acts 2. and such therefore as I hope you contend not for now for then there would be a Pope as there was an high Priest then c. And brother you must give us leave to stand upon this as for our lives that we dare not admit of any Churches as the true and genuine Churches of Christ which are not of his owne institution that is such as are not called and gathered by the voyce of Christ in his word and by that Scepter of his swayed and by that alone Law of his governed And therefore be intreated good brother not to presse upon us such your Churches whose not onely institution in their severall divisions but government also in their combinations is meerly humane and therefore as a house founded on a sand which against a storme cannot stand You must first be able to found your Nationall Church in the Scripture or assure yourselfe if a man will build upon it a common Presbyteriall Classicall government and dwell there he will bring an old house upon his head when God shall begin to storm it But to come to your perticular instances in the Assumption for the proofe of your Nationall Church The first is the Catholicke Church throughout the world What is this to a Nationall Church Though the Catholick include all the true Churches throughout the world yet doth it not therefore conclude any Church to be Nationall The second instance is the Nationall Church of the Jewes and from hence you can conclude as little for your Nationall Churches as before we have shewed For bring us any one Nationall that is one intire Church or congregation as that of the Jewes was or that is of one family as that was or that is a type of Christs spirituall Kingdome as that was or that is the universall Church of God visible on earth as that was or that is governed by the like lawes that that was when your selfe doe confesse that the government of your Nationall Churches is to be regulated by humane Lawes Customes Manners and not by Gods word alone whereas that of the Jewes was wholly governed by Gods own Law and not at all by the Lawes of men untill it came to be corrupted contrary to the expresse Law of God And you confesse also that the government of your Nationall Churches is alterable according to the Lawes Customes Manners of severall Nations whereas the government of the Church of the Iewes was unalterable till Christ himselfe did put a period to that Oeconomy In a word your Nationall Churches are a mixed multitude consisting for the greatest part of prophane persons being as a confused luâ—p whereof there are nine parts of leaven to one of pure flowre so as the whole is miserably soured and the flowre made altogether unsavoury But that of the Iewes in its naturall and externall constitution was all holy an holy Nation a Royall Priesthood a peculiar People all the congregation holy every one of them So as in no one particular doe your Nationall Churches hold parallell with that of the Iewes no not in the least resemblance Your third instance is the Synodall Assembly of the Apostles Elders and Brethren at Ierusalem Acts 15. who made and sent Binding Decrees to the Churches And what of this brother Therefore Nationall Churches or generall Councels or Provinciall have the like power to make and impose binding Decrees and send them to the Churches Why first of all that Assembly was not any Nationall Church representative Secondly neither was it a Generall or Provinciall Councell Thirdly being an Assembly of the Apostles with the Elders and Brethren it could not erre for the Apostles had infallibility of judgement being guided by the holy Ghost infallibly and the Elders and Brethren did assent to their determinations And was there ever such a Synodicall Assembly since that Had euer any Councell besides that infallibility of judgement Shew it brother and then wee will beleeve they may make Binding Decrees and wee will submit unto them Nay dare any Assembly of men on earth say It seemed good to the holy Ghost and Us That 's enough for the black mouth of blasphemy the Roman lying Oracle But in your second thoughts you traverse this * place more largely which wee shall consider when we come to it In the mean time what I have here and before said may suffice to stay the Readers stomace But you adde All this is seconded with all Occumenicall Nationall Provinciall Councels Synods and the Church-government throughout the world in all Christian Realmes States c. Alas brother all these put together are in no sort sutable to make a second to that Apostolicall Assembly they cannot hold the least proportion with it to make a second to that unsampled sample though they make never so great a summe And whereas you make the up-shot of this your question to the apparent sub version of Novell Independent Invention these be your words we have proved it to be neither mans Invention but Gods own institution nor Novell as having its foundation in the New Testament nor yet Independent otherwise then that it depends not upon any humane authority or jurisdiction out of it self not upon any such conformity to humane lawes or customes or manners of every Nation or people as you speake of Neither doe you take away our Argument from the most usuall phrase of the Apostles calling the Churches in the plurall by saying Historians often speake of the Churches in England for they doe not so speak when they mean the congregations but the material Temples but speake of England as one Church when they understand the people and there hath not been shewen any dependence of those Churches as the dependency of the English Churches is knowne The ninth Question Thus reduced in summe That liberty which the Apostles had and used in ordaining supplying instituting new Rites Orders Canons c. for the Churches peace and welfare they transmitted to posteritie But the Apostles had and used such liberty c. Therefore the same liberty have all Churches in the world in all ages succeeding the Apostles in
in binding of the conscience which hath it selfe for witnesse and God for the onely Iudge therefore when it hath any thing commanded of God it must needs stand bound Where inter caetera is to be noted That God is the onely Iudge and binder of the Conscience The great question in controversie at this day Obj. But you will here object That although as before you say of Priests a Councel or Synod have not this authority to make and impose binding decrees yet a Parliament hath and you deduce it from this Synod Act. 15. Answ. Now truly brother by your favour this doth no way hold proportion that that which you call a Synod as a patterne for binding Decrees should not qualifie a Synod of Divines with the like power and yet transmit it over to a Parliament for binding authority over the consciences of a whole Nation surely that Apostolike Assembly or Church meeting was neither a Parliament nor Diet nor Senate nor any such thing that you should build any such power of Parliaments upon it for the making of binding Decrees over the consciences of men Therefore good brother be not so peremptory but take in your top-sail too high to bear up against so stiffe a gale both of Scripture and Reason But I come to your twelfth and last Interrogatory The twelfth Interrogatory This Interrogatory is concerning the lawfull coercive power of Civil Magistrates in suppressing Heresies c. Or setters up of new forms of Ecclesiasticall Government c. For answer hereunto Wee do acknowledge and submit unto the lawfull coercive power of civill Magistrates according to the Scripture Rom. 13. But brother however you must distinguish between mens consciences and their practices The conscience simply considered in it self is for God the Lord of the conscience alone to judge as before But for a mans practices of which alone man can take cognizance of if they be against any of Gods Commandments of the first or second Table that appertains to the civill Magistrate to punish who is for this cause called Custos utriusque Tabulae The keeper of both Tables and therefore the Apostle saith Rom. 13. 3 4. For Rulers are not a terror to good WORKS but to the evill Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power DO that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same for hee is the Minister of God to thee for good but if thou DO that which is evill be afraid for he beareth not the sword in vain for hee is the Minister of God a revenger to execute wrath upon him that DOTH evill So as we see here what is the object of Civill power to wit actions good or bad Not bare opinions not thoughts not conscience but actions And your self exempts the preaching of the Gospel and truth of God from being restrained by the civill Magistrate But now brother the time hath been and somewhere is and will be that the * truth of God hath been with-holden in unrighteousnesse and by the civill Magistrate punished with death being condemned for heresie And you see in these dayes great diversities of mens opinions and judgements one judging thus another so you think my way erroneous and I may do as much for you But do you or I DO that which is evill in actually breaking of any of Gods commandments or any just lawes of the land then we lie open to course of civill justice but so long as wee differ only in opinion which of us shall be punished first or which of us is in the error you write books I write against them yet sub judice lis est who shall be Judge you or I surely neither Among other things you would have the civill Magistrate to suppresse restrain imprison confine banish the setters up of new forms of Ecclesiasticall government without lawfull authority It may be you will involve me in the number But what if I prove that which you call a new form to be the old form and the lawfull authority of setting it up to be of Christ Must I therefore undergo all these your terrible censures because you so judge What if your judgement herein be altogether erroneous What punishment then is due to him that condemnes the innocent you may be a civill Judge one day remember then brother that if I come before you you meddle not with my conscience nor with mee for it If I shall offend any of your just lawes punish mee and spare not But if you should make a law like to that of the Jewes that who so shall confesse Christ to be the Son of God and the only Law-giver Lord King Governour over Consciences Churches and not man not Assemblies not Councels or Senates though after much Fasting Prayers Disputes as you say I confesse I shall be apt to transgresse that law but yet take you heed how you punish me for that trangression with an Ense recidendum or I wot not what club-law So ends your Book and so my Answer Now brother you have since published a third Book partly in answer to your first Answerer and partly touching Mr Joh. Goodwin I leave the parties interessed to acquit themselves Only your stating the Question in the conclusion of the Book I could not omit You staâ—â— it thus Whether a whole representative Church and State hath not as great or greater Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction over the whole Realm Churches with all the members then any one Independent Minister or Congregation challenge over their members Brother I answer if you can prove your Jurisdiction good we will easily grant it to be greater But if the Jurisdiction of the Churches you call Independent be good as having Christ for the founder and owner of it as we have cleerly proved then certainly it will prove the greater For magna est veritas praevalet for Christs kingdome shall stand up when all opposite earthly kingdomes like earthen vessels shall with his iron rod be dashed in pieces This for the Clause Another passage in the same Book is touching my person where you say That none of us three-brethren-Sufferers suffered for opposing Bishops legall authority or any Ceremonies by act of Parliament established Here brother give me leave to answer for my self First for all manner of Ceremonies of humane ordinance imposed upon the conscience in the worship of God I openly for the space almost of a twelvemoneth immediately before my troubles preached against them every Lords day out of Col. 2. from the 8th verse to the end of the Chapter so as when I was summoned into the High Commission Court the Articles read against mee were not only for my two Sermons Nov. 5th but also for those other Sermons against the Ceremonies so as this might challeng to be one ingredient in my censure in Star-Chamber and no lesse then a pillory matter And concerning my opposing of Bishops themselves not only their extravagancies for which I also was censured and suffered you may remember
Even the Imperiall heathen Roman Lawes gave way to the preaching of Christs kingdome and gathering of Churches within their Territories Provinces Cities 3. For Church-government Covenant wee have said enough before 4. Concerning a Nationall Church also we have spoke already in the former Answer And I desire brevitie and not to answer all your repetitions and aggravations lest I may nauseam movere 5. It is one thing for a State to set up a new forme of Ecclesiasticall Government and another to pull downe the old This they were bound unto by the Word of God but not so that unlesse it be the same Church-government which Christ sets downe in his Word besides which none other ought to be set up though never so much pretended and by men conceived to be according to Gods Word when made sutable to the Lawes Customes of every Nation and manners of the people as you affirme of which before Lastly This Church-government which we professe you shall never be able to prove ridiculous and absurd as you conclude your Interrogatory The seventh Interrogatory This Interrogatory is about the dismissing of members 1. to become members of Presbyteriall Churches 2. Or of other Independent Churches I answer If any will desert their Congregation who can let them Yet it is the Churches care and duty to preserve it selfe and all the members in unity of the body and also from whatsoever may be sinfull If any shall repent and fall back Churches are not more free then * Christ himselfe was If any for conveniency sake or necessary occasion desire to joyne with some other Church doe you think it unreasonable first to acquaint the Church with their desire And doe you not allow of Letters of recommendation when any is to passe to other Churches May not els jealousies and suspicions arise and heart-burnings between Churches Do you not remember what divisions and emulations the want hereof did cause among the Churches of old And brother we desire to doe all things in love And we desire that others should doe no otherwise unto us then we doe unto them as you object You twit us againe for respecting the rich more then the poore If it be true it is * our fault and ought not so to be if not true it is yours and that so often as as you doe you cast it in our dish The eight Interrogatory This Interrogatory is to charge us for not admitting to Baptisme any Infants of such Parents who are not members of our Churches And brother you make this a most hainous and intolerable thing Why you know if we would admit of all it would be no small benefit and advantage to us especially when we are to deale with rich mens children such as you say we have in such high estimation Therefore that we doe it not for rich men you may thinke there is something in it that covetousnesse is not so predominant in us as to corrupt our Conscience And therefore brother let some charitable thought take place in you that we doe it rather of Conscience then of Covetousnesse And what say you to this brother We preach Christ to the Parents We preach him no lesse a King then a Priest and Prophet We preach him the onely King of our Conscience and the onely Law-giver and Governour of his Churches We exhort them to set up this King in their hearts Wee exhort them to become and professe to be those Saints of whom he is King For he is * King of Saints But brother they will not beleeve us they will not depend upon Christ as the onely Lawgiver and King over their consciences Now what would you have us to doe in this case Baptize the Infants of such Parents as will not in this respect professe nor confesse Christ to be their King Why doe you not know that no Infants have any title to Baptisme that are not within the Covenant visibly And how are they within the Covenant visibly but by vertue of their Parents faith outwardly professed And what outward profession of faith in the Parents that refuse Christ for their onely King that are ashamed or afraid to professe to be in covenant with Christ as their King If therefore the Parents professe not yea refuse thus to be in visible Covenant can the children be said to be in visible Covenant and so to have a right to Baptisme the externall seale of the Covenant Brother here is obex a barre put If you say The child shall not beare the iniquitie of the father True but the Parents keep themselves off from the covenant by refusing Christ in whom alone the beleever hath right to the Covenant and so the child is withall kept off For it is not now under the Gospel as it was from Abraham to Christ The covenant was made with Abraham and his seed so as by vertue hereof all the male Infants of beleeving Abraham were and ought to be circumcised But now under the Gospel those onely are accounted Abrahams seed who professe the faith of Abraham which faith looked upon Christ and embraceth whole Christ in all his offices and professe the same outwardly Rom. 10. 9 10. So as the Covenant is entayled onely to beleevers now and so to their children as Act. 2. 39. If then the Parents by refusing Christ as their King as the Jewes did Luk 19. 14. doe hereby out themselves off from the Covenant they do therewith cut off their children too and this not to be recovered in the child untill either the Parent be restored or the child coming in time to beleeve and to professe the faith of Christ doe hereby claime his right to the Covenant and so to Baptisme as being a * childe of Abraham Let this suffice for the present why we dare not baptize the children of those Parents that refuse to professe the faith of Christ as their onely King as well as their onely Priest and Prophet For Christ divided becomes no Christ to the divider This is according to the vulgar Latin translation 1 Joh. 4. 3. solvere Iesum to dissolve Jesus that is to receive him only in part and not in whole Which is the spirit of Antichrist Besides willing disobedience to any good order in a Church deprives a man of the liberties of the Church for so he may not eat of the provender that will not undergoe the yoake Now this of a voluntary profession to walk with the Saints of such a place according to Christ is a thing so just as following the example of the old Church who were in particular Covenant with God 2. In the New they professed their giving themselves to God 2 Cor. 8. 5. 3. All societies require some promise of their members If it be said we are members of the universall Church by faith and repentance we reply 1. this faith must be shewen by a voluntary giving our selves to Christ visibly and then to some Church of his if opportunitie