the loue of God and Christ farre be that from me it is selfe loue that I discommende in your author and in you all of this family For the loue of God is manifested to vs by Christ our Lorde which is our onely comfort So God loued the worlde c. You loue your authour so wel that this loue of God little appeareth 2 Could any man you say rew the prosperitie of the householde of God except he were of the diuell no verelye If you were of Christs householde we as fellowes woulde imbrace you but straungers from that household ye are and as straungers lurke in corners 3 My foundation you say is against H. N. whom I neuer knewe nor vnderstode off True it is touching his person but by his doctrine he is not vnknowne to me whose bookes I haue to shewe 4 You say as Christ in the reuelation is shadowed by two caracters A. and O. so none can knowe his name except he ouercome in the spirite therefore we must be scilent hereafter for H. N. is not the signification of any mans name This is a great mistery in déede for if H. N. be not a man then haue I vtterly mistaken my selfe but sure the bookes were not written by Angels man was the minister and the man that write them his name is Henrye Nicholas the same mans life I haue truely set downe not hearesayes but the trueth not of enimies but of his neighbours familiers not one man but many they will not onely speake the trueth but are ready vppon their othes to testifie the same 5 Where you iudge that you are suer they are not of the Church of Christ it is very rash Iudgement I coulde testifie of their honest life and manners but it shal be here impertinent You make your comparisons vnequall because Christ by two letters did testifie his maiestie power as god will you admit H. N. by like reason to vse two letters significant In déede I haue â—en aunswered y H. N. signifieth Homo nouus but such follyes will not serue you must of necessitie acknowledge H. N. to be a man as one of our Family at Farnam before the Bishop of Winchester did acknowledge confes him that is to say H. N. not only to be a maÌ„ but also a sinner least you shuld burden me with vntruth as you haue done I will giue you his name R. W. 6 You put me in minde of my impudent dealing in that I haue saide that none of your family dare set forth your doctrine in principles that all men may sée wherein you and we differ you referre me to a little booke called The confession of the Family which booke I haue read but that is very plausible nothing differing from vs If you helde no worse pointes then that booke doth vtter suerly I would come before you al acknowledg my fault and craue pardon but this is a méere mockery of the people to set down your faith common with vs and nothing contrary to vs where as your authour in sundrie places tearmeth vs a diuellish Sinagogue or schoolâ— and that we are not the Church but a harloâ—t If you and we professe one Christ one baptisme one faith why are we seuered in communion but it is a worlde to sée your doings in this matter When any of your family are conueÌ„ted before any officer in Christes Church then you subscribe to any forme you recant in your owne churches you promise neuer to professe H. N. nor his doctrine and yet still after so sollemne protestations you reteine your secrete doctrine which in fewe wordes is not plaine dealing If your doctrine be a trueth why doe you still deny it if the power of God hath shone through H. N. so mightely why doe you not in principles drawe your doctrine that the people of God may sée vppon what groundes and stayes you haue seuered your selfe from vs but you vse the pollicy of the cuttle a fish whose property is to trouble the water that she may not be séene so with your darke speaches misteries you would cast a myst that no man should sée your meaning and then stande vppon your tiptoes and say that your sentences haue such profounde maiestie that our simple grosse capacities cannot comprehend the same Plaine dealing is euer best If we be in error shewe it to vs in what points and for my owne part I wil if you can conuince me by the testimonies of holy scripture yeald vnto you or any 7 What conference I haue had with your family dyuers of your family can tell you 8 You say my disorderly dealing shall appeare in the aunswere to my booke which for my part I shal long looke for for hitherto you haue not set down any one place where in I haue mistaken your author In déede I tooke not vpon me to write against any one booke but to display what absurdities I finde in your authors Doctrine you shall finde that performid or it be long by Maister Knewstubs who hath written a book to confute your Euangelium Regni You apply this text of holy scripture very fondly Christ saith my kingdome is not of this world 9 You aske howe the trueth can be taught where his kingdome is not If you meane by this worde kingdome power maiestie dominion then it is shewed in y world manifested to hys Church But by kingdome the Euangelist doth vnderstande as I take it an outwarde shewe of principalitie which the Iewes looked for to be in their deliuerer or Messias which he denied to be in him which may better appeare in that which followeth For then would my ministers surely fight for me 11. I knowe that Christ chiefly reigneth in his Churche but who are the Church is the question Euery heresie seeketh to shadowe it selfe with the title of the Church but by the life of Gods holy worde they haue béen found heretikes and seducers and yet I neuer hearde of any errour but drewe their doctrine into principles and durst disspute with any in their opinions except one Basilides whiche Eusebius in his 4. booke Chap. 7. maketh mention of who feining sundrie titles of vnknown names of Prophetes to amaze their hearers depending vpon Reuelations and visions amongest other thinges taught this that in time of persecution their faith with periury might bee denied saying Iura periura fideÌ„ prodere noli Now surely if I might without offence compare your dealings with Basilides it shoulde be founde little differing 12 You say that the same doctrine which the Martyrs taught in the primitiue Church H. N. teacheth nowe but wee plainely denie that euer any taught a perfection to bee atteyned vnto in this life to liue not daily committing sinne or that our battell is ended when we be re generat or that any H. N. hath receiued such power of teaching extraordinarie as you imagine For we denie that he hath the spirite of god and say that he teacheth
say but at aduenture of the things which you neueÌ„r heard ne sawe I would you had played an honest mans part and had vsed but equall weight and measure not haue contrarie to your promise where you said you wil alledge the Authors words and neither adde ne diminish taken here three or foure linâ—s and then passe ouer tenne or twelue and then againe take two lines and againe passe ouer sixe lines take halfe a line c. and so make a sentence thereof Thus is your doings found out of so many as haue coÌ„pared your allegations with the bookes of the Authour Notwithstanding all this you protest that you are voyde of malice in your vntrue booke seeming rather to pitie the poore seduced people then otherwise intending enuie You promise likewise to put downe nothing wherof you haue not sufficient warrant by certaine in the Duche Church but sure I am not of Christes Church for as much as they exercise not their moutheâ— with Iyes but you haue heard so and therefore it is so men of good credite say so I had rather heare an honest poore mans report truly spoken then a riche credible man 's that is a lyar and it is well knowne to some of the Duche Church that your credible men are lyars yet can you be content to fauour their reportes And as touching the cyting of H. N. his owne words without adding or diminishing I am ashamed of your disorderly dealings therein that shall so appeare in the aunswere to the booke as ye shal be proued therein as in y rest a falsister of both The speach which you pretend to haue had with many of the company I dare affirme it to be a great vntruth is but a visard as you haue saide of them to couer your malice withall I would shame would let you tell the truth then should you say as it is that your mate E. L. one of your own familie hath prompt you forward in these matters especially against Christopher Vitall a man whose honest life and conuersation you were neuer able to come nearâ— nor shall vnlesse you mend your wordes deedes weightes measures and waxes But will you see one notable matter which you haue gathered out of this Authors wordes more that is The truth hath not bene taught in the world since the Apostles time but nowe by the Familie the Scripture affirmeth that Christ the onely trueth hath saide My kingdome is noâ— of this world and howe can the trueth be taught where the kingdome is not for it hath bene euer hid from the worlde and her wise but yet alwayes manifested amongst the outseuered ones from this world And euen as the enimies of the same trueth haue alwayes martyred Gods holye ones euen so nowe woulde suche worldlings as you are doe had you power thereto And this I assure you that the very same doctrine which those Martyres haue taught the same doth H. N. teach but you say truth seeketh no corners see your appliment herein Christe commandeth his disciples saying When they persecute you in one citie flee vnto an other we read that Christe also many times went from place to place to auoyde such your forefathers the Scribes and Pharisees who sought his life And I pray you did not Iacob flee from his brother Esau Noe from the whole worlde Lot from the Sodomites Elias from all men Dauid from Saule with infinite more examples Then howe doe you approue your matter It can belike be no truth except you allowe it to be true a sound consequent Likewise you say vntruely citing the wordes that the Illuminate Elders can not erre nor sin nor dare before the simple ones in Christes Churche approue their Authours doctrine you haue I am sure good warrant to seuer the Illuminate Elders in the godly wisedome and holy vnderstanding out of the Church of Christ. But I haue better to proue that you are not thereof You disallowe others of bosting bicause you might boast alone is the suffering with Christ to rayle vpon his true meÌ„bers or else in patieÌ„ce to take vp our crosse and so suffer till by his suffering in vs we be deliuered iustified but I dare say you vnderstand me not now from sinne death diuill and hell but your wordes are no slaunders as you thinke else woulde you season them with truth for very shame For were it permitted that companie with indifferencie to auouch the trueth of their cause as it is permitted you and your companie slaunderously to blaspheme you shoulde then bee shewed in your right colours Ye say also that their Rabies or Elders haue recanted Arianisme at Paules crosse as well might you be charged with other matter c. But your obiection is false witnesse my Lorde of Canterburie that nowe is and yet more were to be saide but the companie hopeth your conuertioÌ„ although at this present your brethren in Christ for their good faithes cause they haue in your licentious doctrine of predestination and free election fill all the prisons almost in England but what reason haue I to charge you therewith but forsooth to put you in minde that you looke to your selfe and yours before you reproue others which mee thinketh is but reason You giue a glaunce also at the greatest house in this realme which you wish were cleare of such errours but put vp your bolt I aduise you whether that house hath auctoritie to ouerlooke you and your adherents that may you knowe hereafter Moreouer you say you could if you listed to be a blab tell out many discentions among them who yet you confesse will not in their best thinges make you or any other acquainted much lesse in things against them selues but it is true like the rest all this is but to make your speaches wonderfull and your modestie greater then it is You forget thereby many Protestants I thinke excelling you in vnderstanding in Rome Spaine Italie and other places vnder the Bishop of Romes inquisitioÌ„ which holde it good pollicie to defend them selues their consciences in keeping them from such Tyranny Will you not allowe to others as you gladly challeÌ„ge to your self â–ª then we must say you are vnequall in your doings But wil you see the most egregious vntrueth that can be spoken by this newe shamelesse writer He alledgeth Iohn Leydon and Snypper Dolling at Munster in Westfalia which were duely punished for Anabaptisme by the gouernours and Lordes of that time and place as appeareth by many writers as Iohn Sleydon and others And because these men were Hollanders and as he affirmeth schollers of Dauid George therefore H. N. must be belike by that reason one of that confederatie For although many learned writers do affirme their matter to be Anabaptisme yet this man will haue it the Familie of Loue. Fulwell doe you open your malice herein as in the rest with your forefathers who saide that Christ had the diuell and was a wine bibber a companion of
sufficient to answer for him were they weyed in the balance of equitie You terme the saide Familie simple howe much are they bound to laude the Lorde and to giue him most high thankes and praise that they are simple Moses saith Would God that all the Lordes people could prophesie and that the Lord would put his spirite vpon them So doe I wish from the bottome of my heart that all the Lordes people were simple concerning euill and malice then strife contention enuying backbiting lying persecuting for coÌ„scieÌ„ce cause theft â–ª murder whoredome dronkennesse Idolatrie and such like should not beare so great dominioÌ„ as it doth Is it an odious matter in your eyes to be simple I pray you peruse well these few sentences of Scripture here following The testimonie of the Lorde is pure and giueth wisedome to the simple God thou knowest my simplenesse my faultes are not hid from thee He taketh vp the simple out of the dust lifteth the poore out of the mire The Lorde preserueth the simple When thy worde goeth foorth it giueth light and vnderstanding euen vnto the simple A simple mans wisdome is despised and his wordes are not heard Timely in the morning do they arise to murder the simple and poore Reioyce thou greatly O daughter Sion be glad O daughter Hierusalem for loe thy King commeth vnto thee euen the righteous and Sauiour lowly and simple is he The poore simple sheepe that had a respect vnto me knewe thereby that it was the word of the Lord. You say the zeale of the Lordes house carried you so farre that you could not stay till you had published suche matter as came to your handes I for my part can not so conceiue that it was the Lordes zeale for there coulde not any one deale in such sort vse such spenches in writing as you haue done if he were carried by the zeale that the lord doth require It may rather be gathered that you had such a zeale as Iesus the sonne of Syrach writeth of where he saith Zeale and anger shorten the dayes of life and also There is nothing but wrath zeale fearefulnesse vnquietnesse feare of death ' rigours anger and strife c. But my desire is of the Lorde that he would plant the true zeale in vs all and then the loue v3 to loue God aboue all and our neighbour as our selues shoulde not be so despised and had in contempt with many as it is nowe in these dayes You say that Syr William Moore a worthy Iustice in Surrie had the examination of one or two of the Familie who vttered much matter which you are loth to write and yet in the end of your booke you haue set downe the Articles that were confessed before Syr William Moore the 28. of May 1561. by two of the Familie of loue You would haue it appeare to the readers as though there wer two at one time before a worshipfull Iustice of Peace and one or two at an other time before Syr William Moore and all those confessours were but two parties and one matter as you well knowe for you haue or haue had the written copie of the Articles with the names of those two parties that as it is said were the confessours of the saide Articles before Syr William Moore who was not at that time v3 the 28 of May. 1561. knowne or called by the name of Syr William Moore for he was but an Esquire What false and forged matter is set downe in the saide Articles and that the confessours of them are nor neuer were of the Familie of Loue I leaue to the iudgement of the same two parties and of all those that haue had haue or shall haue the cause in question and will consider of it with indifferencie Concerning the citizen your neighbour whome you doe so often name in your booke to discredit him as much as in you lyeth although you haue nâ— iust cause so to doe I leaue to the iudgement of all those discreet wise sober and honest citizens his neighbors who haue had at any time to deale with him there or else where and also to the discreete wise sober vertuous and godly learned that haue had at any time conference with him I hope you will from hence foorth take heede how you mâ—ke any such attempts to speake or write vpon report nor belye wrest ne peruert any authours writings for lyars shall haue their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone What Authour hath written any booke if one shoulde deale therewith as you haue done with this Authours writing but there might be founde many faultes c. To me as I suppose you are vnknown but if I should write what I haue heard of you and of Maister Bateman your furtherer in this your attempt vpon report happily you nor he wold scarse take it in good part It were good and according to the rule of the holy Scripture that all fault finders wold first looke into them selues that it be not saide Hypocrite first cast out the beame out of thine own eye and then shalt thou see clearely to plucke out the moâ—e that is in thy brothers eye c. I haue presumed to be so bolde as to certifie you my minde touching a fewe pointes of your booke hoping not lesse but you will take this my simple plaine and rude hand writing in good part although it lacke good Methode and doe wish that my time of leasure woulde haue permitted me to certifie you my minde in many other paintes of your booke but for as much as my time wil not serue thereto I am constrained to hold my self coÌ„tented Thus M. Rogers I bid you farwel wishing to you as to my self althogh there be many ways paths walked in of those that do trauell in religion â—reuer the right pathway be found which is to followe Christe Iesus our Sauiour in his footsteps yet I hope our God will in the end bring vs all into the same right path and that our sinnes shall be by and through the death passion and bloudsheading of our Lord and sauiour Iesus Christ done away and be of the number of those that shall be set on the right hand to whoÌ„ our sauiour Iesus Christ when he coÌ„meth in his glory al the holy Angels with him shal say vnto Com ye blessed childreÌ„ of my father inherit the kingdom prepared for you froÌ„ the beginning of the world c. to the end I might through the power of the lord be one of the number of the elect haue I had my exercise in the Scriptures And to the end that I might be furtherer in the vnderstanding of the Scriptures I haue read diuers Authors who haue set too their helping hand to the opening of the Scripture so farre foorth as the Lorde gaue them vnderstanding thereof and although some haue in diuers pointes varied in iudgement Salomon saith
N. nor his doctrine and yet haue turned to the same againe we do not denye but that some haue beene constrained so to doe and that it is no plaine dealing And I pray you tel mee hath the like matter euer beene heard of ere this tune that simple men who can scarcely reade Englishe because they haue read a booke or heard it read should be compelled to yelde an accompt of the spirite of the author that wrote the same I thinke not except you will allowe by like reason that euery simple man that heareth a doctor preache should be compelled to deliuer forth all his diuinitie or els to be committed to straight prison Learned men dispute with the learned it hath euer yet suffised amongst Gods ministers a simple person to yelde an accompt of his beleefe simply c. were not thinke you playner dealing better you say that wee vse the propertie of the Cuttell c. Do you not remember that the fleshly minded Iewes could not see their Sauiour when he was dayly amongst them yet they boasted verie stoutly of their sight and would not in any case confesse their blindnesse Wee stand not vpon our tiptoes as you say but we dayly acknowlege our blindnesse and waite vpon the Lord for our sight Wee say not that you are in errour but wee say that we haue through that sinfull nature of the fleshe that earthly lying being which hath wrought that disobedience in Adam where through we are all fallen beene bewrapped in all ignorance and blindnesse and for that cause are not ashamed to confesse our errour Wee will not go about to conuince you by the testimonies of the holy Scriptures for that lyeth not in our power neither were wee so dealt withall It is the Lorde by his grace that hath conuinced vs and brought vs vnder his crosse ▪ if he also conuince you then are ye rightly conuinced and so the praise thereof appertayneth onely vnto him And whereas you desire to knowe wherein you haue mistaken the author to that we saye that you haue not set downe any whole sentence but patched peeced the same without all order contrarie to your promise For you say you will not adde nor diminish but set downe the authors wordes worde for worde which you haue done euen as one may take the tenne commaundements and leaue out some wordes thereby say that God commaunded such things as for example Thou shalt haue none other Gods but mee Thou shalt not steale Thou shalt not committ adulterie c. Leaue out none not and then what is the commaundement If this be good dealing then you haue dealt well let all men iudge You say moreouer you tooke not vppon you to write against any one booke but to display the absurdities you found in the auctors doctrine which wee shall fynde perfourmed ere it be long by master Knewstub who as we suppose shall displaye him selfe therein euen like as you haue in your booke displayed your selfe and your adherents You say we apply this text My kingdome is not of this world c. verie fondly we take his kingdome not to be outward but inward vz. peace righteousnesse and ioy in the spirit which things the world is ignorant of you may expound it at your pleasure though we expressed our minde therein in plaine dealing mought it please you so to take it You say moreouer you knowe that Christ raigneth in his Church but who are the church is the question In deede master Rogers you say verie well and nowe giue vs leaue to vse plaine dealing with you least otherwise we mought happe to slaunder or belye you In your book one leafe before your admonitiō to Christopher Vittell these be your owne wordes Howe H. N. iudgeth of vs because wee acknowledge our selues to be of the Church of Christ. For that cause if thou nowe accompt not thy selfe for an whoore but esteemest thy selfe for the faithfull espowsed wife of Christ c. And nowe for as much as we vse not neither are so taught in the seruice of loue to iudge rashly or vnaduisedly of any people to their reproche like as you haue done of vs let vs intreat you to read in the booke called The prophesie of the spirite of loue the tenth Chapter sect 12. 13. 14. and in the 11. 12. Chapters throughout and then see with an vnparciall eye what manner of Churche that it is which he doth there reproue you shall finde it in deede to be that fleshly wicked nature that lying being which spareth not with his earthly knowledge to set it selfe to iudgement and to giue sentence of the godly matters which he calleth a false seede an adulterous generation of the earthly man which hath inhabited the earth with vnrighteousnesse iudged it falsely with her lyes seduced the simple oppressed the little ones murdered the holy ones of God and spylt the innocent bloud on the earth He calles it moreouer a bronde of the venomous Dragon yea of the diuell and of the earthly lying generation which is begotten of the seede of the Serpent and viperous generation which hath alwayes beene a false and a wicked whoore vppon the earth c. which church you nowe do challenge to your selues and acknowledge your selues as members of the same euen like as wee in times past haue also done Which thing so soone as the Lorde let vs see into then fell wee down before the Lorde and shamed not to confesse our faultes before him as that wee had ouerlong taken parte with that whoorishe nature of the earthly fleshly and sinfull being whome wee do nowe by Gods grace vtterly abhorre hoping dailye by the might of Christe Iesus our Lorde to see her filthie nakednesse in vs and in manye disclosed abhorred and reiected for euer more You desire to knowe of vs the difference betwixt you and vs Could any man tell it more plainly then you in your wordes haue here manifested the same Consider aduisedly of it so shall you not neede henceforth to demaunde of vs any further resolution in that point but must of necessitie if you doe well fall downe before the Lorde and crye with vs Peccauimus cum patribus nostris iniuste egimus iniquitatem fecimus You charge vs vniustly with the errour of Basilides as though wee were forswearers of our selues whereas yet notwithstanding there hath neuer beene proued any such matter against any of that companie or in any of all that authors workes which may well suffise to stop your mouth if trueth will serue to aunswer you And yet I remember that Tindall a learned man and writer in his booke of Obedience writeth these wordes Breake not vp into the consciences of men after the example of Antichristes disciples which compell them eyther to forsweare themselues by the Almightie God and by the holie Gospell of his mercifull promises or to testifie against them selues which abhomination our prelates learned of Caypha◠Math. 26.