But for that he is not onely a false prophet and a traitor to the truth that teacheth false doctrine but as well he that knoweth the truth and either for feare of death or desire of life wil not expresse the same to the world And for that not onely the author of any euill or mischiefe is giltie of offence before God But also he that might vy discouerie therof preuent the same and yet either will not or for feare of death dares not And for that as the olde prouerbe saith Qui â—acet consentire videtur he that concealeth the truth seemeth to consent to errors for these and the like causes I will laye downe vnto you some such corruptions and abuses as seeme to be inormous and stande in neede of reformation omitting in the meane time to speake perticularly of all for that they be innumerable vntill I see how these fewe will be brouked of them For it is a point of good physicke you knowe to sée how the former meate receiued into the stomacke will be digested and concocted before we receiue anye more into the same Theod. You say very well Giue me leaue then by your patience to aske you such questions as I thinke conuenient for my further instruction that by your good means I knowing the truth may praise God in you and also haue iust occasion to giue you thanks for the same Theod. Aske what you thinke good in Gods â—ame and I will doe the best that I can to resolue you in any thing that you shall demand Theod. Then this shal be my first demand Be the churches congregations assemblies there distincted into particulars as into parishes and precincts one exempt from another or are they dispersed here and there abroad without any order exemption or limitation of place at all Amphil. Euerie particular church congregation assemblie or conuenticle is diuided one from another and distincted into parishes and preâ—incts which seuerall precincts and parishes are so circumâ—ired and limited about with bounds and marks as euerie one is knowne of what parish he is and vnder whose charge he liueth So that euerie shepheard knoweth his flocke euerie pastor his shéepe And againâ— euerie flocke knoweth his shepheard and euerie shéepe his pastor verie orderlie and well in my simple iudgement Theod. Doe you allow then of this partition of churches and of one particular congregation from another Amphil. Yea trulie It is not amisse but a verie good order for thereby euerie pastor doth knowe his owne flocke euery shepheard his owne shéepe which without this diuision could not be Besides that we read that euen in the apostles daies who writ to particular churches themselues as to the Rom. Corint Thes. Phil c. in the daies of Christ in the times of the prophets before Christ churches assemblies and congregations were euer distincted one from another diuided into seueral flocks companies and charges So that although they had not the name of this word parish amongst them yet had the thing ment thereby in effect Theod. Then it followeth by your reason that there are infinite churches in Dnalgne and I haue learned out of the book of God that there is but one true church and faithful spouse of Christ vpon the earth How reconcile you these two places Amphil. Uerie well For although there be infinite particular churches congregations and assemblies in the world yet doe they all make but one true church of God which being diuided in time and place is notwithstanding one church before God being meÌ„bers of the mystical body of Christ Iesus felow members one of another so as they can neuer be diuided neither froÌ„ themselues nor froÌ„ their head Christ. Theod. Who doe you constitute the head of the vniuersall church of Christ vppon earth Christ Iesus the pope or the prince Amphil. Christ Iesus whose the bodie is must néeds â—e is the onely true head of the vniuersall church Then next vnder him euerie christian prince in his kingdom And as for the pope he is head ouer the malignant church the church of the diuel and not of Christ Iesus No he is so far from being head ouer the vniuersal church of Christ that he is no true member of the same but rather the childe of perdition the first borne of satan a diuell incarnate and that man of sin euen Antichrist himselfe that must be destroied with the breath of Gods mouth Theod. By whom be these particular churches and congregatious gouerned and ruled Amphil. By bishops pastors and other inferiour officers Theod. Do you shut out the prince then fâ—ont gouerning the church Amphil. No God forbid For take awayâ— Brachium seculare The lawfull power and gouernement of the temporal magistrate from the regiment of the church and ouerthrow the church altogither And yet notwithstanding the necessitie hereof the dooting anabaptists and brainesicke papists haue most deuilishly denied the same The anabaptists denie most absurdly the authoritie of the magistrate altogither The papists seing themselues conuinced by the manifest worde of GOD denye not their authority absolutely but that their authority extendeth to the gouernement of the church forsooth they vtterly denie hereby exempting themselues and plucking away their neckes from vnder the yooke of christian obedience due vnto migistrates contrarie to the expresse word of our sauiour Christ and his apostles who saith Omnis anima subdita sit potestatibus supereminentibus Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers for there is no power but of God And therefore they are to be obeyed as the ministers of God of all whatsoeuer Theod. Well than I gather thus much that euery king prince or potentate is supreame head next vnder God ouer the church of GOD dispersed through his kingdomes and dominions is not this true Amphil Uerie true And therefore that antichrist of Rome hath plaide the traitor a long while both to Christ Iesus and all christian kings in arrogating and vsurping to be supreame head ouer all the world Whereas indeed he being a greasie priest smered prelate hath no more authority than other oiled shauelings haue nor so much neither and yet that authoritie is but ouer the maligant church of antichrist and not of Christ Iesus I beseech the Lord therefore to breake of that power to grind in peces that stumbling blocke of offence and to wipe off the heads of that monstrous hidra so as neuer any mo may growe thereof againe Theod. Seeing you say that euerie prince is supreame head ouer the church of God within his dominions what authoritie therfore assign you to the prince to execute in the church Amphil. It is the office and dutie of a prince not only to see elected sent forth called good able sufficient pastours for the instruction of the church but also to see that good orders constitutions rites be established and duely performed that the worde be preached the sacraments truely ministred excommunication discipline and
preaching of Christ Iesus truelie that his kingdome might dailie bee increased their consciences discharged and the Church edefied which Christe Iesus hath bought with the shedding of his precious hart bloud Theod. Maie a pastor or a Minister of the Gospell forsake his flocke and refuse his charge for the wearing of a surplesse a cappe tippet or the like as manie hane done of late daies who being inforced to weare these garmentes haue giuen vp their liuings and forsaken all Amphil. Those that for the wearing of these garments being but the inuentions the traditions the rites the ceremonies the ordinances constitutions of man will leaue their flocks and giue ouer their charges not caring what become of the same doe shew themselues to be no true shepheards but such as Christ speaketh of that when they sée the Wolfe comming will flie away leauing their flocke to the slaughter of the gréedie wolfe They giue euident demonstration also that they are not such as the holie Ghost hath made ouerseers ouer their flocke but rather such as being possessed with the spirite of pride and ambition haue intruded them selues to the destruction of their flocke If they were such good shepheards as they ought to be and so louing to their flocke they would rather giue their life for their shéepe if néede required than to runne from them leauing them to the bloodie téeth of the mercilesse wolues Is hee a good shepheard that watcheth dailie vppon his flocke or hee that runnes from them for euerie light trifle I thinke we would count him a verie negligent shepheard And shall wee thinke him a diligent or a good pastor and one that would giue his life for his shéepe as a good pastor should doe that for such trifles wil estrang himselfe from his flocke for euer Therefore I beséech God to giue them grace to looke to their charges and to let the other trifles alone being no part of our saluation or damnation Theod. But they saie they refuse the wearing of these garments because they are offensiue to the godlie a scandall to the weake brethren a hinderaunce to manie in comming to the Gospel an induration to the papists hardning their hearts in hope that their trumperie will once come in again to their singular comfort Amphil. It is an old saying Better a bad excuse than none at all And truly it séemeth they are driuen to the wall and sore graueled that will flie to these simple shifts But whatsoeuer they say or affirme certain it is that offensiue to the godly they cannot be who haue already learned to distinguish betwixt the things abused and the abuses themselues And who know also how to vse things mere indifferent to good ends and purposes And therfore this question thus I shut vp in few words that the wearing of these garmentes béeing commaunded by a Christian Prince is not offensiue or scandalous to anie good Christians and to the other it mattereth not what it be For they are such as the Lorde hath cast off into a reprobate sence and preiudicate opinion abusing all things euen the truth it selfe to their owne destruction for euer excepte they repent which I praye God they maye doe if it bee his blessed will Theodo I pray you why doe they weare white in their surplesses rather than any other colour and why a forked cappe rather than a rounde one for the Papistes if they were the authors of these garmentes haue their misteries their figures their representations in all things Wherfore I desire to know your iudgment herein Amphil. You say the truth for the Papistes haue their misteries in all thinges after their maner Therfore thus they say that white doth signify holines innocency al kind of integrity putting them in mind what they ought to be in this life and representeth vnto them the beatitude the felicitie and happines of the life to come And thys they prooue ab exemplis apparitionum from the example of apparitioÌ„s and visions in that aungels and celestial creatures haue euer appeared in the same colour of white Therefore forsooth they must weare white apparell The cornered cappe say these misterious fellows doth signifie and represent the whole monarchy of the world East West North South the gouernment whereof standeth vpon them as the cappe doth vppon their heades The gowne saye they doth signifie the plenary power which they haue to doe all things And therefore none but the Pope or hée with whome hee dispenceth maie weare the same euerie where bicause none haue plenariam potestatem plenarie power in euerie place but Beelzebub the Pope Yet the Ministers saith he maie weare them in their Churches in their owne iurisdictions ' because therein they haue full power from him Thus foolishlie do they deceiue themselues with vaine shewes shadows and imaginations forged in the mint of their owne braines to the destruction of manie But who is he that because these sottishe Papistes haue and doe gréeuouslie abuse these thinges will therefore haue them cleane remoued If all thinges that haue beene abused should be remooued because of the abuse than should we haue nothing left to the supply of our necessities neither meat drinke nor cloth for our bodies neyther yet which is more y e word of God the spirituall food of our soules nor any thing els almost For what thing is there in y e whole vniuersall world that eyther by one Hereticke or other hath not béene abused Let vs therfore take the abuses away and the things maie well remaine still For may not we christians vse these thinges which the wicked Papists haue abused to good ends vses and purposes I see no reason to the contrarie And therefore in conclusion I beséech the Lorde that wee may all agrée togither in one truth and not to deuide our selues one from another for trisâ—es making schismes ruptures breaches and factions in the church of God where we ought to nourish peace vnitie concord brotherly loue amitie and frendship one amongst an other And seeing we do all agree togither and iump in one truth hauing al one God our father one Lord Iesus Christ our sauiour one holy spirit of adoption one price of redemption one faith one hope one baptisme and one and the same inheritance in the kingdome of heauen Let vs therefore agree togither in these externall shadowes ceremonies and rites For is it not a shame to agree about the marow and to striue about the bone to contend about the karnell to vary about the shell to agree in the truth and to brabble for the shadow Let vs consider that this contention of ours among our selues doth hinder the course of the Gospell from taking such deepe roote in the heartes of the hearers as otherwise it would doe And thus for this time brother Theodorus we will breake off our talke concerning this matter vntill yt please God that we may meete againe Which if it please God we doe I promise you in an other woorke to discourse of the same more at large In the mean time let vs giue our selues to fasiing and prayer most humbly beséeching his excelleÌ„t maiesty to blesse our noble Quéen and to kéepe hir grace as the apple of his eie froÌ„ all hir foes to maintaine his word and gospell amongst vs to plant vnity and concord within our walles to increase our faith to graunt vs true and vnfained repentaunce for our sins and in the end eternall life in the kingdome of heauen thorow y e precious death passion blood-shedding and obedience of Christe Iesus our Lord and onely sauiour to whom with the father and the holy ghost one true and immortal God be al honor praise power empire and dominion throughout all congregations for euermore And thus brother Theodorus I bid you farewell in the Lord till I do sée you againe Theodo And I you also good brother Amphilogus beséeching the Lord that if we méete not vpon earth we maye meete yet in the kingdome of heauen there to rest in perfect felicitie for euer Amphil. The Lord grant it for his mercies sake Amen FINIS LONDON Printed by Roger Ward for William Wright and are to be solde at his shop ioyning to Saint Mildreds Church in the Poultry being the middle shop in the row 1583.
excellencie of their calling inferring that those that rule well are worthye of double honour Whereby appeereth that bishops are not onlye needefull in the churches of christians but also most needfull as without whome I can scarcely see how the state of the church could well bee maintained And therefore those that contend that they are not necessarie in a Christian Common wealth shewe them selues either wilfull waiwarde or maliciouslye blinde and striuing to catch their owne shadowes they labour all in vaine giuing manifest demonstration of their more than extreame follie to all the world Theod. Well Let it bee granted as it cannot bee denied that they are moste necessarie yet in this I would verie gladlye bee absolued whether they maye lawfullye vendicate or challenge to themselues superioritie and primacie aboue their fellowe brethren of the ministerie or no for some holde that there ought to bee equalitie in the ministerie and no superioritie at all how say you Amphil. They doe not vendicate or challenge anie superioritie or primacie to themselues ouer their brethren in respect of their common callings and functions for therein the poorest pastor or shepheard that is is coequall with them they themselues will not denie but in respect of dignitie authoritie and honour which the prince and church doth bestowe vpon them So that the superioritie that they haue ouer their brethren resteth in dignitie authoritie and honour which it hath pleased the prince to dignifie them withall aboue their felowe brethren and not in calling function or office for therein they are all coequall togither But if any curious heâ—â—s should demand why the prince should aduance any of the cleargie to such high dignitie authoritie and primacie aboue his brethren I answer as it is in the Gospell Is thine eâ—e euill bicause the prince is good May not the prince giue his gifts his dignities and promotions to whom he will And if the prince of his roiall clemencie be minded to bestowe vpon his subiect any dignity or promotion is it christian avedience to refuse the same Nay is it not extréeme ingratitude towards his prince Besides who seeth not that if there should be no superioritie I meane in dignitie authoritie only the same honorable office or calling would growe into contempt For is it not an old saieng and a true Familiaritas siue aequalitas parit contemptum Familiaritie or coequallitie doth euer bring contempt And therefore take awaye authoritie and honor from the magistrates either temporall or spirituall and ouerthrowe the same altogither If authoritie should not be dignified as well with glorie and externall pompe the better to grace the same to shew forth the maiestie thereof would it not soone grow to be dispised vilipended and naught set by And therefore the more to innoble and set foorth the excellencie of this honorable calling of a bishop hath the prince the churches thought it good to bestow such authoritie dignitie and honor vpon them and not for anie other cause whatsoeuer And therefore seeing it is the pleasure of the prince to bestowe such dignitie authoritie and honor vpon them me thinke any sober christians should easely tolerate the same Theod. Yea but they saie that there â—ught to be no superioritie in the ministerie bringing in the example of the apostles themselues amongst whom was no superiority inequalitie or principallitie at all Amphil. Indeede amongst the apostles there was no superioritie I grant neither in office calling authoritie nor otherwise but al were equall in ech respecte one to another But what than The apostles were sent to preach to the churches and not to gouerne and therefore they choose elders to rule the same but our bishops are as well to gouerne and to rule the churches in some respects as to preach the worde And therfore though there were no superioritie amongst the apostles yet maye there be amongst our bishops in respect of gouerment dignitie and authoritie And wheras they saie there ought to be no superioritie in the ministerie at all I answeare no more there is in respect of euerie ones function forme of calling and office to preach the word and minister the sacraments But in respect of gouernement authoritie dignitie and honor there is superioritie and I am perswaded so ought to be In which opinion vntill they haue disprooued it I meane Christ willing to persiste Theod. But they adde further and say that it strengtheneth the hands of the aduersaries the papists For saie they the papists may as well affirme that christian emperours kings and potentates and euen the churches of God themselues haue giuen to the pope that authoritie that dignitie and honor which he hath or claimeth aboue his fellowe brethren as well as the bishop may say so Besides it confirmeth the opinion of soueraigntie ouer at the churches in the world For say they may not the pope saie that he receiued plenarie power to be head ouer all the world from christian kings emperours and potentates as well as the bishops may say we receiued this power to be superior to our brethren from christian kings and princes Now whether these reasons be a like I would gladly know Amphil. They be verie vnlike and so vnlike as there is no equallitie comparison or semblance betwixt them For first of all let theÌ„ note that the pope nor any of his complices and adherents doe not holde nor pretende to holde no they dare as well eate off their fingers as to say so for then were their state in a wofull case that their archdiuell their god the pope I should say doth receiue his power either of authoritie superioritie primacie souereigntie or head ouer all the world from any earthly creature but immediately from God himselfe But whereas hée sayth that hee receiued his power of superioritie ouer all the worlde from no earthie creature but from God himselfe it is manifest that he receyued it neyther from God for his vsurped power is contrarie to God and to his words in euerie respecte nor from anie christian man but from the Deuill himselfe whose vicegerent or Liefetenant generall in his kingedome of impietie he shewes himselfe to be Than let them note that although hee pretended to holde his vsurped authoritie from man as hee doth not yet is there no man howe mightie an Emperour King Prince or Potentate soeuer that is able proprio iure to giue him authoritie ouer all the worlde without great and manifeste iniurye done to all other Princes as to giue the soueraigntie or chieftie of their Landes from them to a straunger But a Prince may lawfullye bestowe and geue to his subiectes anie prerogatiue title authoritie office function gouernment or superioritie of anie thing within his owne dominions and kingdomes but no further he maye not And therefore this reason of theirs holdeth not that the Pope maye as well arrogate the one to himselfe as the Byshops may the other to themselues Theod. Séeing now it cannot be denied but that
damosell that spake to Peter inferring that whereas the mayde sayde Thy speech bewrayeth thee if he had bene distincte from others in attire or outwarde apparell shee would than haue sayd Thy apparel sheweth thee to bee such a fellowe These with the like examples they pretende to prooue that pastors and Ministers are not to bee discerned and knowen from the lay people by anye kinde of apparell But as I will not saie that they are to bee knowen and discerned from others by apparell or habite onelye but rather by the lifting vp of their voices like Trumpetes as saith the Prophet so I wyll not denye the same to bee no note or marke at all to knowe a Pastour or Minister of the Gospell by from others of the temporaltie and laitie And truelye sor my parte I sée no great inconuenience if they bee by a certaine kinde of decente habite commaunded by a Christian Prince known and discerned from others Yet some more curious than wise before they would weare anie distinct kind of apparell from others they haue rather chosen to render vp both lininges goods families and all leauing their flockes to the mouth of the wolues Theod. Is it lawfull for a minister of th◠Gospell to weare a surplesse a tippet or forked cappe and the like kind of attire Amphil. As they are commaunded by the Pope the great Antichrist of the worlde they ought not to weare them but as they be commaunded and inioyned by a Christian Prince they maie weare them without scruple of conscience But if they should repose any religion holinesse or sanctimonie in them as the doting Papists doe than doe they gréeuouslie offende but wearing them as things méere indifferent although it be controuersiall whether they bée things indifferente or not I sée no cause why they maie not vse them Theod. From whence came these garments can you tell from Rome or from whence els Amphil. The most hold that they came first from Rome the poison of all the world most likelie they did so but other some searching the same more narrowlie do hold y t they came not from Rome but rather from Grecia which frō the beginning for the most part hath euer béen contrarie to the Church of Rome But from whence soeuer they came it skilleth not much for béeing mere indifferent they maie be worn or not worne without offence according to the pleasure of the Prince as things which of thēselues bee not euill nor cannot hurte excepte they be abused Theod. Notwithstanding they holde this for a maxime that in as much as they came first from the Papistes and haue of them bene idolatrouslie abused that therefore they are not nor ought not to bee vsed of anie true pastors or Ministers of the Gospell Is this their assumption true or not Amph. It is no good reasō to say such a thing came from the Papistes ergo it is naught For we read that the Deuils confessed Iesus Christ to be the sonne of God doth it follow therefore that the same profession is naughte because a wicked creature vttered the same All thinges are therefore to bee examined whether the abuse consist in the thinges themselues or in others that abuse them Which being found out let the abuses be remoued and the thinges remaine still A wicked man maye speake good wordes doe good works before the world but because they wante the oile of faith to souple them withall they are not good workes before the Lord and maie ordaine a good thing which maie serue to good ends and purposes And because the same hath afterward béene abused shall the thing it selfe therefore be quite saken away No take away the abuse let the thinge remaine still as it maye very well without anie offence except to them quibus omnia dantur scandalo to whom all thinges are offence And further if these presicians would haue all things remoued out of the Church which haue béene abused to Idolatrie than must they pull downe Churches for what hath bene abused more to Idolatrie and superstition pulpits belles and what not Than must they take away the vse of bread and wine not onely from the church but also from the vse of man in this life because y e same was abused to most shame full idolatrie iu béeing dedicate to Ceres and Bacchus twoo stinking Idols of the Gentiles Than must they take away not onely the Epistles and Gospels but also the whole volume of the holy scriptures because the Papistes abused them to idolatrie By all which reasons with infinite the like it manifestly appeareth that manie things which haue beene instituted by Idolaters or by them abused to Idolatrie may be applied to good vses and may serue to good ends y e abuses being takē away Yet wold I not that any thing that hath béen idolatrously abused by the papists should be reteined in the churches of Christians if by any meanes they might be remoued and better put in place Theodo Is the wearing of these garments a thing méere indifferent or not for some hold it is some hold it is not Amph. It is a thing w tout al cōtrouersy mere indifferent for whatsoeuer gods word neither expresly cōmandeth neither directly forbiddeth nor which bindeth not y e conscience of a christian man is a thing mere indifferent to be vsed or not to be vsed as the presēt state of y ◠church time requireth But it is certen that the wearing of this kind of attire is not expresly commanded in the word of God nor directly forbid by the same therfore is mere indifferent and may be vsed or not vsed without burthē of cōscience as y e present state of time shall require And therfore séeing they be things indifferent I wold wish euery wise christiā to tollerate y e same being certen that he is neither better nor worse for wearing or not wearing of them Theod. Being things as you say mere indifferent may any man lawfully refuse y e wearing of thē against the cōmandement of his prince whom next vnder God he ought to obey Amphil. Euery man is bound in conscience before God to obey his prince in all things yea in things directly contrary to true godlines hée is boūd to shew this obediēce but not to cōmit y e euil namely to submit himselfe life lands liuings or els whatsoeuer he hath to y e wil of his Princes rather then to disobeie If this obedience than be due to Princes in matters contrarie to true godlinesse what obedience than is due to thē in matters of small waight of small importaunce and méere triflles as these garments be iudge you He that disobeieth the cōmaundement of his Prince disobeieth the commaundement of God and therfore would God all Ecclesiasticall persons that stande so muche vpon these small pointes that they breake the common vnitie band of charitie in the church of God would nowe at the last quallifie themselues shewe obedience to Princes lawes and fall to