vniversall Why might not the Church of that tyme haue held some vniversall errour and yet haue beene still the Church You must answer your owne Argument which is easy for vs Catholikes to doe by saying 5. First No particular man or Church may hold any sinfull and damnable errour and yet be a member of the Church vniversall Which is a truth to be believed by all Protestants if they vnderstand themselves and as I haue often sayd Potter confesseth that it is Fundamentall to the Faith of a Christian not to disbelieue any point sufficiently knowne to be revealed by God and that he who does so is an heretike and that heresy being a worke of the flesh excludes from the kingdome of Heaven And what a Church would you haue that to be which consists of Heretikes 6. Secondly To put a parity between particular men or Churches and the Church vniversall may very well beseeme some Socinian who makes small esteeme of the Authority of the Church but resolves faith into every mans private judgment and reason and therfore no wonder if such a Church be subject to corruptions no lesse than private men whose naturall witts and reason must integrate as I may say the whole Authority of and certainty in such a Church and therfore if particular persons may fall into errours the Church cannot be free from them yea she must containe in her bosome or rather bowells such corruptions and errours and so many poysons contradictory one to another and yet not breake A noble latitude of hart and a vast kind of hellishlike Charity But for vs your Argument hath no force at all For we belieue the Church to be the Meanes wherby Divine Revelations are conveyed to our vnderstanding and to be the Judge of Controversyes as hath beene proved hertofore at large and this being supposed we must make vse of your owne words Pag 35. N. 7. That the meanes to decide Controversyes in faith and Religion must be endued with an vniversall Infallibility in whatsoever it propoundeth for a Divine Truth From whence it followes that every errour in Faith is destructiue of that infallibility which is required in the meanes to decide Controversyes in Faith and Religion Which is further confirmed by those words of yours Pag 9. N. 6. No consequence can be more palpable then this The Church of Rome doth erre in this or that therfore it is not infallible Therfore say I to affirme that the Church can erre is to say she is not infallible nor can be judge of Controversyes nor the meanes to convey Divine Revelations to our vnderstanding nor could she be a Guide even in matters Fundamentall as we haue proved els where and yourselfe grant this last sequele to be good And in a word she would cease to be that Church which we are sure she is 7. Thus you say that Scripture which alone you hold to be the Rule of Faith and decider of Controversyes must be vniversally infallible and that any the least errour were enough to blast the whole Authority therof As also if the Apostles who were appointed to teach Divine Truths could by word or writting haue taught any falshood we could not haue relyed on their Authority in any point of faith great or little 8. You say Pag 143. N. 30. There is not the same reason for the Churches absolute infalliblity as for the Apostles and Scriptures For if the Church fall into errour it may be reformed by comparing it with the Rule of the Apostles Doctrine and Scripture But if the Apostles haue erred in delivering the Doctrine of Christianity to whom shall we haue recourse for the discovering and correcting their errour These your words prompt vs a ready Answer and disparity between the Church and private persons who if they fall into errour the errour may be reformed by comparing it with the Decrees Traditions and Definitions of Gods Church But if the Church erre to whom shall we haue recourse for the discovering and correcting her errour Nay I do take a forcible Argument by inverting and retorting your owne words For supposing your Doctrine that we belieue Scripture to be true and the word of God for the Authority of the Church and another saying of yours that a proofe must be more knowne to vs than the thing proved otherwise say you it is no proofe I argue thus There is not the same reason for our beliefe of the absolute infallibility of the Apostles and Scripture as for the Church For if false Scripture be obtruded it may be discovered by comparing it with the Tradition and consent of the Church from which we receiue the Scripture as the word of God and consequently all the certainty we haue of the contents therof But if the Church may erre to whom shall we haue recourse for discovering and correcting her errours seing as I sayd to compare it with the Rule of the Apostles doctrine will be to no purpose because that very Rule cā be of no force with vs but for the Authority of the Church which therfore must be as great or greater with vs then Scripture it selfe according to your owne saying The proofe must be more knowne than the thing proved Our B. Saviour sayd Matt 5. Uos est is sal terrae you are the salt of the earth But if the salt leese his vertue wherwith shall it be salted Vpon which words S. Austine L. 1. de serm Domini in monte C. 6. saith Si vos c. If you by whom others are to be as it were seasoned forfeite the kingdome of heaven vpon feare of temporall persecution what other persons shall be found to free you from errour seing God hath chosen you to take away errours from others So we may say If the Church which God hath appointed to teach others and deliver them the Scripture should erre who could be found to discover and correct that errour Your Argument is no better than this If a man may be a man though he be deprived of some vnnecessary part of his Body as fingers feete c. why may he not remaine a man though he want some parts absolutly necessary for the conservation of him in Being as hart head braine c. For infallibility in the Church is a priviledge necessary and as I may say essentiall to her as she is the judge of Controversyes in Faith which office belonging to no private persons infallibility is not necessary for them 9. To your vaine subtility That we say It is nothing but opposing the Doctrine of the Church that makes an errour damnable and it is impossible that the Church should oppose the Church I meane that the present Church should oppose it selfe From whence you would collect that if the Church should erre yet her errour being not damnable as not opposite to the Church herselfe she might still remaine a Church I answer By the same reason you may say the Apostles might erre and yet remaine of the Church and their
divided in externall communion one of the which true Churches did triumph over all errour and corruption in doctrine and practice but the other was stained with both For to finde this diversity of churches cānot stand with reds of Histories which are silent of any such matter It is against Dr. Potters owne grounds that the Church may erre in points not fundamentall It contradicts the words in which he sayd Pag 155. The Church may not hope to triumph over all sinne and errour till she be in Heaven It evacuateth the brag of Protestants that Luther reformed the whole Church Of these last words you say Let it be so I see no harme will come of it What indeed Is it no harme that it may be sayd with truth that your Protestants are proved bragging false Lyars in saying Luther reformed the whole Church But to omit this these words declare that Ch. Ma. speakes of two Churches wherof one did triumph over all errour and then adds to find this diversity of two Churches cannot stand with records of Histories c where the particles this diversity are referred to two kinds of Churches wherof one did triumph over all sinne and errour and yourselfe explicating the Doctors words say To triumph over errour is to be secure from it to be out of danger of it not to be obnoxious to it This supposed the objection is clearly of no force wherin you say To suppose a visible Church before Luther which did not erre is not to contradict this ground of D. Potters that the Church may erre Vnless you will haue vs belieue that May be and Must be is all one which rule if it were true then sure all men would be honest because all men may be so And you would not make so bad Arguments vnless you will pretend you cannot make better But this whole objection is grounded vpon concealing the words of Ch. Ma. who spoke of a Church triumphing over all errour as we haue seene by his express words and therfor when in the very next consequent period he mentions a Church free from errour it cannot be otherwise vnderstood then of such a freedome as he spoke of immediatly before that is of a Church as indeed the true Church ought to be free from all danger of falling into any least errour against Faith Besides suppose he had spoken of a Church which defacto did not erre in any point fundamentall or not fundamentall from the Apostles time to Luther it had been no ill argument to inferr that she could not erre because morally speaking and without a miracle or particular assistance or infallible direction of the Holy Ghost it had been impossible for so many men in so many Ages of so different dispositions through the whole world to haue agreed in the same beliefe concerning matters not evident of themselves but farr exceeding the light of naturall reason and seeming contrarie to it and therfor if they had not been effectually preserved from errour no doubt but some would haue fallen into it which is so true that Dr. Potter sayth Pag 39. it is a great vanity to hope or expect that all learned men in this life should absolutely consent in all the pieces and partiticles of divine truth The rest of this Number hath been particularly answered heretofore and your weakning the strength of Historie and tradition serves only to call in question all Religion in your ground who belieue Scripture for tradition 17. In your N. 57. you say to those words of Ch. Ma. N. 18. Our Saviour foretold that there would be in the Church tares with choice 〈◊〉 Looke again I pray and you shall see that the field he speaks of is not the Church but the world Answer Ch. Ma. doth not as interpreting our Saviours Parable Matth 31. saie that the field he speaks of is the Church but that he foretold that there would be in the Church tares with choise corne which is very true seing he expresly makes the parable of the kingdom of Heaven which is the Church saying The Kingdom of Heaven is resembled to a man c. and the amplitude of the word world doth not exclude the Church for which and her Pastours he gaue that wholesome Document Sinite vtraque crescere Let both grow vp and I pray where but in the Church can there be the wheat which our Saviour would not haue rooted out And because your owne guiltiness moves you in this occasion to tax Catholiques because they punish obstinate Heretiques you should reflect that the tares are not to be gathered when there is danger least by so doing the wheat may be rooted out and therfore a contrario sensu if there be no such danger yea that by sparing the cockle the good corne will suffer the cockle is rather to be taken away than the corne destroied In your N. 58. may be observed a strange kinde of saying that God is infinitly mercifull and therfor will not damne men for meer errours who desire to finde the truth and cannot Is it mercy not to damne men for that which is no fault And for which to damne one were injustice and therfor not to doe it is not mercy but justice 18. Your N. 59.60 haue bene answered at large in the Chap 7. about Schisme Neither can these propositions be defended from a contradiction The Church of Rome wants nothing necessary to salvation and yet it is necessary to salvation to forsake her For as I haue proved even he who believes she erred yet is supposed to belieue that notwithstanding that error still she wants nothing necessary to salvation and therefore the distinction of persons whereof one believes she errs and the other believes she does not erre cannot saue this contradiction 19. That which you say N. 61. is answered by these few lines Almighty God hath promised to giue his sufficient grace to avoyd all deadly sinne and consequently all damnable errour as you confesse every errour against any revealed Truth to be vnles ignorāce excuse it which cannot happen if as you affirme such an assistance is promised to vs as shall lead vs if we be not wanting to it and ourselves into all not only necessary but very proficable truth and guard vs from all not only destructiue but also hurtfull errours because this assistance supposed the Church if she fall into errour must be wanting to herselfe and her ignorance can not be invincible but culpable and damnable both in it selfe and to her and if her errours be damnable she wants some thing necessary to salvation that is the true assent of Faith contrary to that damnable errour and she hath something incompatible with salvation namely that damnable errour and so indeed that truth which you call only profitable becomes necessary and that errour which you suppose to be only hurtfull is destructiue if your Doctrine be ttue that God gives sufficient Grace to avoyd all sortes of errour and to lead to all very profitable truths
only in generall that some commands oblige only vnder a veniall sinne your saying is impertinent to a matter in which the least sin committed by disbelieving any Poynt sufficiently proposed as a divine Revelation is deadly as I haue declared and you often and purposely grant Yea further how can it be sayd that some of the least commandements of which our Saviour speakes are concerning veniall sins seing our Saviour affirmes that whosoever shall break one of his least commandements and shall so teach men shal be called the leastin the kingdome of Heaven if those words signify an exclusion from Heaven Or if this exposition please you not but that you will haue them vnderstood of veniall sins then you must explicate how our Saviour could say he that shall break one of his Commandements obliging only vnder a veniall sin shal be least in the kingdome of Heaven seing all men break such commands by committing veniall sins and so there shal be no comparison or contradistinction of least or great but all must be reckoned amongst the least Besides you must reflect that our Saviour speakes of him that shall break one of his least commandements and shall so teach men Now though it be but a veniall sin to breake a commandement which obliges only to abstaine from a veniall sin yet to teach that it is lawfull to breake any commandement even concerning veniall sins is a great and deadly sin as being an errour against Faith As for example to lye or wittingly to vtter an vntruth ossiciocè or jocose without prejudice vnto any is but a veniall sin yet to belieue and much more to profess and teach that it is no sin to lye were a grievous deadly sin of Heresy To what purpose then do you tell vs of our pretending that some least commandements are only concerning veniall sins But the truth is I conceyue it will be hard to name any writer who doth so oftē cast himself into labyrinths and perplexityes as you doe In the meane tyme it appeares more and more how necessary it is that there be some living judg for determining Controversyes of Religion not only in Articles vniversally and absolutely and in all cases necessary but also for other Poynts which by occasion of emergent Heresyes or for avoyding contentions and danger of Schismes or other causes may necessarily require to be determined And that things profitable taken as it were in generall are necessary to be believed in Gods Church as I haue declared aboue 75. Which truth is yet strongly proved by other words of yours in the same Pag. 9. N. 7. where about holding errours not necessary or not fundamentall you say It imports very much though not for the possibility that you may be saved yet for the probality that you will be so because the holding of these errours though it did not merit might yet occasion damnation As the doctrine of Indulgences may take away the feare of Purgatory and the doctrine of Purgatory the feare of Hell as you well know it does too frequently So that though a godly man might be saved with these errours yet by meanes of them many are made vicious and so damned By them I say though not for them No godly Layman who is verily perswaded that there is neither impiety nor superstition in the vse of your Latine service shall be damned I hope for being present at it yet the want of that devotion which the frequent hearing the Offices vnderstood might happily beget in them the want of that instruction and edification which is might afford them may very probably hinder the salvation of many which otherwise might haue bene saved Besides though the matter of an Errour may be only something profitable not necessary yet the neglect of it may be a damnable sinne As not to regard veniall sinnes is in the doctrine of your Schooles mortall Lastly as veniall sinnes you say dispose men to mortall so the erring from some profitable though lesser truth may dispose a man to errours in greater matters As for example The belief of the Popes infallibility is I hope not vnpardonably damnable to every one that holds it yet if it be a falshood as most certainly it is it puts a man into a very congruous disposition to belieue Antichrist if he should chance to get into that See These be your words to which I may add what you haue Pag. 388. N. 6. where you say to your adversary Wheras you say it is directly against Charity to our selves to adventure the omitting of any meanes necessary to salvation this is true but so this also that it is directly against the same Charity to adventure the omitting any thing that may any way helpe or conduce to my salvation that may make the way to it more secure or less dangerous And therfor if the errours of the Roman Church do but hinder me in this way or any way endanger it I am in Charity to my self bound to forsake them though they be not destructiue of it And Pag. 278. N. 61. you say If I did not find in my self a loue and desire of all profitable truth If I did not put away idlenesse and prejudice and worldly affections and so examine to the bottome all my opinions of divine matters being prepared in mynd to follow God and God only which way soever he shall lead me if I did not hope that I either doe or endevour to doe these things certainly I should haue litle hope of obtaining salvation What could haue bene sayd more effectually to proue the necessity of some infallible Meanes to decide controversyes evē in things only somthing profitable as you speake For out of these your own words it will be demanded whether it be no matter that such poynts be declared since they may import very much though not for the possibility that men may be saved yet for the probability that it will be so because the holding of errours in those matters though it did not merit might yet occasion damnation and by the meanes of them many are made vicious and so damned and because the want of that devotion which the truths contrary to those errours might happily beget and the want of that instruction and edification which they might afford may very probably hinder the salvation of many which otherwise might haue bene saved since also though the matter of such errours may be only somthing profitable not necessary yet the neglect of them may be a damnable sinne And I pray you what greater neglect then to hold and write as you doe that if controversyes concerning them be continued and increased it is no matter since also erring from some profitable though lesser truth heer is no mention of necessary or very profitable truth may dispose a man to errour in greater matters since finally it is against the vertue of charity to ourselves not only to adventure the omitting of any meanes necessary to salvation but also the omitting any thing
Church is not only secure but certaine and easy and therfore necessary Thus your mayne Objection is turned against your selfe And then it is further inferred that if it either be no sin or at least a less offense to profess errours than to forsake the Church she may justly exact and injoyne vnder Censures that to which every one is obliged by the Law of God notwithstanding any pretence or supposition of errours For when the Holy Fathers vnanimously agree that it is not possible there can be any just cause to forsake the Church they must suppose that either she cannot fall into any errour which is most true and indeed they suppose it otherwise there could be no difference betweene the vniversall and a particular Church which may fall into errour and so be forsaken or els you must grant that they did not conceiue any eriours could excuse the leaving her Communion And this vnaninâ—ous consent alone were sufficient for Christians to belieue that the profession of errours cannot be so great an evill as separation from the Church is Nevertheless reason it selfe grounded in principles of Faith convinceth the same For in true Divinity it is Fundamentall to the Faith of a Christian not to disbelieue any one point sufficiently proposed as revealed by God as Potter expressly grants and you say further that it is to giue God the ly and therfore to profess as a point of Faith any thing contrary to the beliefe of the Church is to say she erred fundamentally and fell into infidelity as Potter saith every one doth who denyes a Divine Truth sufficiently proposed and consequently to profess that the Church erred is to say that she perished which Potter saith is in the matter and nature of it properly hereticall and so Whosoever saith the Church erred he himselfe by that very saying professes indeed a damnable heresy which is worse than to profess an errour contrary only to a Truth supposed to be not Fundamentall nor necessary and so by your owne confessions though I grant your confessions contradict yourself we proue our intent 123. Besides it is no less evident that it is essentially and Fundamentally evill to disbelieue a truth knowne to be witnessed by God than to profess externally some point which one believes not to be true yea that first must be the ground for which you say it is damnable to profess against ones conscience an errour repugnant to Divine Revelation For if it be not damnable to deny interiourly such a truth much lesse can it be damnable to profess exteriourly only a deniall of that which one believes to be revealed by God For it is to be considered that we speake not of any internall errour but only of the externall profession of an errour not Fundamentall which alone is not so great a sinne as internall Heresy nor so vast a Mischiefe as the inconvenience of Schisme is which is destructiue of the whole Church essentially including communion in profession of one Faith Liturgy c. and necessarily brings with it a deluge of scandall irreligiosity contempt disobedience and in one word vniversitatem malorum and therfore S. Thomas teaches 2.2 Quest 29. Art 2. ad 3. that amongst sins against our neighbour Schisme is the most grievous because it is against the spirituall good of the multitude or community and as Cha Ma saith Part 1. Pag 156. N. 6. As there is as great difference betweene the crime of rebellion or sedition and debates among private men as there is inequality betwixt one man and a whole kingdome or Common wealth so in the Church Schisme is as much more grievous than sedition in a Kingdome or Common wealth as the spirituall good of soules surpasses the Civill and politicall weale See here the sayings of the Holy Fathers in Charity Maintayned Part 1. Pag 157. N. 70. of the grievousness of Schisme All which is confirmed by what we sayd even now that the profession of an errour in our case cannot so much as hurt a private person who constituted in an invincible perplexity doth not sin by embracing the less evill in the opinion of great Divines with whose Doctrine whosoever conformes his Conscience is certaine not to sin whatsoever the thing be in it selfe 134. Morover it is evident both in reason and by experience that Schisme always brings with it that very thing which you pretend to be so very inconvenient and damnable that is a profession of errours at least not Fundamentall by multiplying diversity of Sects and opinions as we see it happens among Protestants some of whoâ— must be in an errour And S. Hierome saith truly vpon those words of the Apostle which some casting of haue suffered ship wrack in their Faith though Schisme in the beginning may in some sort be vnderstood different from heresy yet there is no Schisme which doth not faine some Heresy to it selfe that so it may seeme to haue departed from the Church vpon good reason And is it not worse both to belieue and profess culpable errours than to belieue aright and faile only in the outward profession of that beliefe The former makes one a formall compleat Heretike both in conscience and judgment of the Church the latter is indeed no Heretike but only appeares so to be neither is he subject to the punishment of Heretiks The former offends in two respects in the beliefe of an errour and profession of it The latter only in profession which alone as I saied cannot be so sinfull as the errour of Heresy it selfe both because the profession is sinfull only by reason of the errour professed as also because by heresy one doubts or denyes some truth revealed by God which is immediatly against Gods supreme Uerity and veracity and so is against an Object of a Theologicall Uertue as S. Thomas saith 2.2 Quest 39. A â— c. Infidelitas est peccatum contra ipsum Deum secundum quod in se est veritas prima cui fides innititur But to profess a knowne errour is only against the precept of professing ones Faith which are distinct thinges and therfore as I sayd a culpable errour is worse than the only profession of an errour If you thinke that such an externall profession is worse than an internall errour because that is against ones conscience you are much mistaken it being certaine that not every sin of dissimulation against ones conscience is greater than any other sin as is cleare of it selfe to every Divine or Philosopher yea the externall sinfull profession of an errour flowes from the Heresy itself which ordinarily is a worse roote than humane feare hope or the like from which an externall false profession or dissimulation is wont to procede and therfore this is less damnable than that even though it were a finne and were not excused by the supposed invincible perplexity as we have Shewed it may be S. Thomas 2.2 Quest 39. Art 2. in corpore teaches that Infidelity ex suo genere is a greater
over all the Apostles and yet exercise no one act of Authority over any one of them and that they should shew to him no signe of subjection me thinks is as strang as that a King of England for twenty fine yeares should do no Act of Regality nor receiue any one acknowledgment of it 35. Answer 1. I would ask how you can assure vs that S. Peter exercised no one act of authority over any one of the Apostles vnless first you suppose not only that all points of Faith but also all matters of fact are registred in Scripture which I hope you will not say S. Luke in the Acts having set downe but a few things and of fewe 2. If you belieue Scripture you cannot doubt but that in divers occasions S. Peter exercised Actions declaring him to haue an ordinary Charg and Power proper to him It was hee who spoke first in the Apostles Councell in Hierusalem who proposed the Election of S. Matthias in warning Christians that in the writings of S. Paul there were things difficult to be vnderstood which in my opinyon deserves to be noted declaring that the charg of the whole Church was committed to him even in things relating to other Apostles who is still named in the first place and named in such manner as the rest are named as belonging to him or of his family which appeares Mark 1. Luc 8. 9. Act 2. 5. It was Hee who was wont to speak for the rest and so S. Cyrill vpon those words Joan 6. Domine ad quem ibimus saieth Per vnum qui praeerat omnes respondent But of the authority and prerogatives of S. Peter Bellarmine writes at large de Rom Pontifice Lib 1. Cap 17.18.19.20.21.22 to whom I referr the Reader 3. The Apostles being dead or dispersed no wonder if S. Peter either had no occasion of exercising Iurisdiction over them or at least there was not occasion of writing it for posterity Besides all the Apostles having jurisdictiō over the whole world which in them was extraordinary but ordinary in S. Peter and being particularly assisted by the Holy Ghost for the due performance of their office no wonder if S. Peter had no occasion of exercising his Power in order to them who wanted neither Power nor knowledg nor will to correspond to the vocation of an Apostle which consideration confutes ād retorts your similitude of a King who certainly would not be solicitous to exercise any act of regality over those who had as great Power as hee himself ād who he was assured would make the best vse of their Power if we imagine any such case in a Kingdom as de facto it was true in the Apostles of whom S. Cyprian saieth De Vnitate Ecclesiae Loquitur Dominus ad Petrum Ego tibi dico inquit quia tu es Petrus super istam Petram aedificabo Ecclesiam meam portae inferorum non vincent eam Et tibi dabo claves regnicoelorum quae ligaveris super terram erunt ligata in coelis quaecumque solveris super terram erunt soluta in coelis Et iterum eidem post Resurrectionem suam dicit Pasce Oves meas Super illum vnum aedificat Ecclesiam suam illi pascendas mandat oves suas Et quamvis Apostolis omnibus post Resurrectionem suam parem potestatem tribuat dicat Sicut misit me Pater ego mitto vos accipite Spiritum Sanctum Si cui remiseritis peccata remittentur illi Si cui retinueritis tenebuntur tamen vt vnitatem manifestaret vnam cathedram constituit vnitatis ejusdem originē ab vno incipientē sua authoritate disposuit Hoc erant vtique caeteti Apostoli quod fuit Petrus pari consortio praediti honoris potestatis sed exordium ab vnitate proficiscitur Primatus Petro datur vt vna Christi Ecclesia cathedra vna monstretur Behold how the Apostles had jurisdiction over the whole world though in a different manner from that according to which it was conferred vpon S. Peter to descend to his Successours 36. Secondly You object As strang it is that you so many ages after should know this so certainly and that the Apostles should be so ignorant that S. Peter was Head of the rest as to question which of them should be the greatest after that those words were spoken in their hearing by vertue wherof S. Peter is pretended to haue been made their Head yet more strange that our Saviour should not bring them out of their error by telling them S. Peter was the man but rather confirme it by saying the Kings of the Gentils exercise authority over them but it should not be so among them Answer It is more strange that you should make this objection who teach that the Apostles even after the receiving of the Holy Ghost having had an expresse revelation and commād from our Saviour were doubtfull whether they ought to preach to the Gentills For if they might erre in Faith and practice notwithstanding so direct a revelation and precept how can you wonder that before the receiving of the Holy Ghost they might contend among themselves which of them were the greater although our Saviour had promised to build his Church vpon S. Perer and why do you not say against yourself it is strang that you so many ages after should know the Apostles did erre in that matter Besides Bellarmine de Romano Pontifice Lib 1. cap 28. demonstrates both by testimonyes of Fathers and Scriptures that S. Peter was not with the other Apostles in that contention of theirs which of them was the greater and so cannot be sayd to haue been ignorant of his owne authority which our Saviour had promised Matth 16. and actually conferred Joan 21. Yea perhaps the Apostles did propose to themselves some temporall kinde of glory or kingdome as the mother of S. James and S. John did when she petitioned our Saviour that one of her sonnes might sit at the right hand the other at the left in his Kingdome and did not thinke of being Head of the spirituall Kingdome of Christs Militant Church According to which consideration it is no wonder If our Saviour should not bring them out of their errour by telling them S. Peter was the man seing indeed he was no such man in order to a temporall Kingdome but rather confirmed it by saying the Kings of the Gentils exercise authority over them but it should not be soe among them Which sacred advice had been also good and necessary though their contention had been about their preeminence in the Church which to seeke ambitiously is evill though the thing to which they pretend be good And seing our Saviour was afterward to commit the charge of the whole Church to S. Peter in expresse termes by a triple injunction of Pasce oves meas Feed my sheep Joan 21. his divine wisdome thought fit Matth 18. to giue them that holy
protestāts that they haue no certaine meanes to judg whē scripture is evidēt ād consequētly it alone is not sufficiēt to judg evidētly of all poynts necessary to be believed Nay seing they haue no evident Ground to know that scripture is the word of God they cannot be certaine of any one text of scripture though we did suppose that the sense therof were very cleare 89. 16. It is a maine ground with Heretikes that a living judg was necessary till the whole canon of scripture was perfited which being done they say the scripture alone is sufficient But even from this principle of theirs I argue thus seeing they belieue nothing which cannot be proved out of scripture they are obliged to proue out of scripture this very Ground that the necessity of a living judg did expire as soone as scripture was written This is impossible for them to do because no such text is to be found in the whole bible Therfor they cannot hold it even according to their owne principles See what I haue sayd in my nynth reason N. 59 to proue that according to their grounds on text will serue their turne for our presēt purpose vnless it be the last book or text because they teach that scripture alone was not sufficient till the whole Canon was perfited and yet who will vndertake that such a last booke or text hath evidently this Proposition After the Canon of scripture was perfited the necessity of a living judg did cease To say nothing that it is not certaine what part of Holy scripture was written last as also that Protestants do not agree whether some of those scriptures which were the last or among the last be Canonical or no as I sayd aboue 90. 17. I take an argument from the confession of Protestants themselves that the Ancient Fathers stand for vs against them and that therfor the Fathers erred Which could never haue happened to Persons so holy wise learned sincere laborious dispassionate and whom all Christians acknowledg to haue wrought miracles on earth and to be glorious Saints in heauen if the scriptures were so express and evident as our adversaryes pretend Or if they will needs haue scripture to be so cleare every man of Conscience and discretion will stand for the anciēt Fathers ād vs who are acknowledged to agree with them Now that the Fathers are confessed by Protestants to haue taught the same doctrines which we at this day maintayne is diligētly demonstrated by that judicious exact and Faithfull Author of the Protestants Apology for the Roman Church concerning divers poynts which the Reader to be assured of the truth and for the Eternall good of his soule may find in the Alphabeticall Table Verb. Fathers and then examine them vnpartially as the Reall Presence Transsubstantiation Reservation of the Sacrament Masse and Sacrifice Sacrifice according to the order of Melchisedech Propitiatory Sacrifice euen for the dead Purgatory Free-will the possibility of keeping the commandements justification and Merit of works invocation of Saints Translation of Saints Reliques and their worship Pilgrimage to holy places Grace conferd by Baptisme necessity of Baptisme Chrisme and Confirmation Confession of sinnes injoyned pennance or satisfaction Absolution the Fast of Lent other sett Fasting daves Fasting from certaine meates vnwritten Traditions Hallowing of Alters Churches Water Oyle Bread Candles c More Sacraments than two that Antichrist shal be but one man the great vertue of the signe of the Crosse the worshipping of it Lights in the Church in the day-tyme Images in the Church their Worship S. Peters Primacy ouer the Apostles the Popes Primacy aboue other Bishops Vowed Chastity monasteryes of vowed virgins their consecration their religious habit Mòks that priests might not marry that Bigamus may not be priest the inferiour orders of deacons subdeacons acolyts exorcists c In so much as in regard of these and many mo like premises many of the learned Protestants do deale plainly in making generall disclaime in the Fathers as may be seene in Brierley tract 1. Subdiv 14. where beside other Protestants he names Whitaker Iacobus Acontius Napper Fulk Downham Melancthon Peter Martyr Beza Caelivs Secundus Curio Sebastianus Francus c Besides it cannot be denyed but that learned Protestants do taxe the Fathers of divers errours as is notorious and may be particularly seene in Brierly ibid wherin although they manifestly wrong those Holy and Ancient Doctours yet these their Accusers ought to gather from thence that scripture is not evident since men indued with all ornaments and helps for attayning the true meaning therof were so much mistaken as our sectaryes pretend 91. The same is also clearly demonstrated by reflecting that very many of the most learned Protestāts agree with vs in many points against their Protestant brethren as Brierley Tract 3. Sect 7. lit M. exactly demonstrates For example the Reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament that Sacraments do not only signify but also conferr grace that Christ after his corporall death did descend in soule into Hell that the Church must continue visible concerning Evangelicall Councells Viz. that a man may do more than he is commanded concerning the vniversality of Grace and that Christ dyed for all that men are not certaine of their election and that he who is in state of Grace may finally fall that in case of divorce vpon adultery the innocent party may not marry againe that to children of the Faithfull dying vnbaptized salvation is not promised Freewill That in regard of Christs Passion and promise our good works proceeding from Faith are meritorious Temporall punishment reserved by God in justice for sin remitted The impugning of the civill Magistrates headship though but of a particular Church Intercession of Angels Intercession of Saints invocation of Saints vowed chastity voluntary Poverty Chastity and Obedience prayer for the dead purgatory Limbus Patrum Images in the Church worship of Images Reverence and bowing at the name of Jesus the power of priests not only to pronounce but to giue remission of sinnes private confession of sins to a priest distinction of mortall and veniall sin in one and the same person the indifferency of communion vnder one or both kinds sacrifice of the New Testament according to the order of Mechisadech that first motions of our concupiscence without our concent therto are not sinnes that the commandements are not impossible Transubstantiation that the Sacraments of the old Testament were not in working and effect equall with ours The visible signe of imposition of hands in confirmation with the grace therby conferred The like visible signe and grace given in Orders yea expressly counted a Sacrament An indeleble character imprinted by certaine Sacraments The baptisme of women and lay persons in case of necessity The knowen intention of the church needfull to the administration of Sacraments Seaven Sacraments implicite Faith that Antichrist is yet to come the patronage and protection of certaine Angels over certaine countries and Kingdomes
that the alteration of the Sabboth from Satterday to Sunday is not proved by scripture but is acknowledged to be an Apostolyque Tradition to be perpetually observed sett tymes of Fasting and from certaine meates appointed not only for politique order but for spirituall considerations the primacy of one over the Church in seuerall Nations and Kingdomes vnwritten traditions necessary to be observed blessing of our meate and forhead with the signe of the crosse and further vse therof in the publike liturgy about which Joannes Creecelius in his descriptio refutatio Ceremoniarum Missae c Printed Magdeburgi An 1603. Pag 118. giveth testimony of the Lutherans doctrine saying We do not disallow the signe of the holy Crosse if once or twice without superstition it be freely vsed in the Divine Service yea if in private our meate and drinke be-signed therwith For when we goe to bed or rise we signe our selves with the Crosse according to the institution of Luther and other godly men And Joannes Manlius Luthers Scholler in loc Commun Pag 636. saith Luther sayd Having made the signe of the Crosse God defend me c As also the Communion-Booke in the tyme of King Edward the sixt penned by advise and approbation of Cranmer Latimer Ridley and other Protestant Divines of that tyme printed Ann 1549. Fol 116. prescribeth the Priests signing of the Sacrament with the signe of the Crosse And Fol 131. it prescribeth the Priests like consecrating the Font of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse 92. These Poynts and more than these which I omitt Brierley doth punctually demonstrate divers Protestants to hold with vs against their owne Brethren which I haue more willingly set downe that Protestants may see how little reason they haue to esteeme the very name of Papists odious since many of their greatest Divines are Papists in so very many and chiefest Poynts and which ought not to passe without reflexion even in those particular Doctrines which to the vulgar sort seeme most Superstitious and for which they are brought vp in contempt and hatred of our Religion and vs. If our Catholique Religion were as beggarly as that of Protestants which is content to call those Brethren who disagree from them in innumerable Poynts we might easily encrease our number with addition of as many Protestants as we haue rehearsed and of many more than we can easily reckon Certaine it is that Protestants will scarcely be able to object any Poynts of moment against vs but that joyntly they must wound their owne Brethren if indeed they did vnderstand what they say and did not think the name of Papists to be a sufficient cause of hatred whatsoever that name doth signify wherof many are very ignorant But for my purpose I conclude that Scripture alone cannot be cleare seing Protestants in so many and so important matters especially in those very particulars wherin they pretend to differ from vs are indeed so far divided among themselves as that they fall to joyne with vs with whom nothing but meere necessity and force of evident truth could moue them to agree And as the agreeing of so many Protestants with vs shews that the Scripture is not cleare at least in behalf of them who are forsaken by their owne Brethren sō their disagreeing among themselves doth convince the same For how can men if with sinceryty they seeke the truth be so divided having before their eyes one and the same cleare and evident Rule as they pretend scripture to be 93. If any for avoyding the premises adventure to say that those learned protestants who affirme the Ancient Fathers to stand for vs do not vnderstand the meaning of their words ād that for the same cause perhaps protestants do not agree with vs nor differ among themselves so much as their writings not well vnderstood make shewe To this answer although I might reply with those words of Tertullian in Apologet Nemo ad suum dedecus mentitur c No man will lye to his owne shame but rather to his owne credit we sooner believe the confession of men against themselves then their denyall against themselves as also I might say that the testimonies of protestants for the sayd purposes are so evident so many of so different persons and delivered not incidently or by some other occasion but of sett purpose at large and as I may say in cold bloud that they cannot with any modesty be avoyded yet I will only say and the Objection deserves no other answer that if the writings of mē which are infinitely beneath the Majesty and sublimity of the Style and misteryes of holy scripture and proportioned to the weakness of humane vnderstanding be so hard and obscure we ought even from this Objection to conclude that scripture alone cannot be evident Thus the Lutherans do grievously complaine against the Calvinists (a) Gerardus Gieskenius a Lutheran in his Book de veritate Corporis Christi in Coena contra Pezelium Pag 93. so charges the Calvinists because say they you alledge Luthers words against his meaning In like manner the same Lutheran Charges them for that they (b) Vbi supra Pag 77. endeavoured to make the Confession of Augusta which teacheth the Reall presence to be Zuinglian that is against the reall presence exclayming therat if this thing had bene done in Arabia America Sardinta or such like remote Countryes and of former tymes this vsurpation of fraud and historicall falshood were more tolerable But seing the questiō is of such things as be done in our owne tymes and in the sight of all men who with a quiet mynd can endure such lyes In like manner Fulk in his Answer to a counterfaite Catholique Artic 17. Pag. 61. is not ashamed to say that the Lutherans and the Zuinglians do both consent in this That the Body of Christ is receaved spiritually not corporally with the hart not with mouth which all the world knowes to be manifestly vntrue Thus also Dr. Field of the Church L. 3. C. 42. Pag 170. sayth I dare confidently pronounce that after due and full examination of each others meaning there shal be no difference found touching the matter of the Sacrament the Vbiquetary Presence or the like between the Churches reformed by Luthers ministery in Germany and other places and those whom some mens malice call Sacramentaryes And Dr. Potter Pag 90. is not afrayd to say that the Lutherans and Calvinists differ rather in forme and phrases of speech then in substance of Doctrine even in the maine controversy between them about Consubstantiation which after occasioned that of Vbiquity The maine truth on both sides is out of Controversy that Christ is really and truly exhibited to each faithfull communicant and that in his whole person hee is every where The doubt is only in the manner how he is in the symboles and how in Heaven and Earth which is no part of Faith but a curious nicyty Is it all one to be exhibited
Errour and embracing the contrary Fundamentall Truth and so cannot be sure that he hath true Repentance vnless he know in particular what Truths and Errours are Fundamentall And you deliver a very pernicious Errour in saying Pag 159 N. 52. whosoever dyes with Faith in Christ and contrition for all sinnes knowen and vnknowen in which heape all his si full Errours must be comprized can no more be hurt by any the most maâ—ignant and pestilent Errour then S. Paul by the Viper which he shooke of into the fire For if he remayne in his Errour about Fundamentall Points he wants the contrary actuall explicite belief of them which is supposed to be absolutely necessary to Salvation and so he will not cast that viper but it will cast him into the fire His Errour then which is supposed to be Fundamentall must be knowen to him and being knowen to be an Errour eo ipso it is rejected since our vnderstanding cannot assent to a knowen falshood and therfore cannot be comprized in the heape of sinfull Errours knowen and vnknowen but must be distinctly knowen and forsaken 22. How can you say that all Protestants agree touching the necessity of Repentance from dead works and Faith in Christ Iesus the Son of God and Savioâ—r of the worâ—d They may agree in the words or Grammaticall signification of them as any boy Turke Jew or Infidell could not but doe if they vnderstood the toung wherin those words were set downe But for the sense you could scarcely haue picked out Articles of greater moment and withall lesse agreed on among Protestants since every word discovers their irreconciliable differences concerning them and yet which is well to be observed they concerne points of practise and things absolutely necessary to salvation as we haue heard you confess and therfore an errour in them is damnable without all remedy 23. Let vs cast an eye vpon every word Repentance Protestants are not agreed wherin true Repentance consists as may be seene in Bellarmine de Poenit Lib 1. Chap 7. Lib. 2 Chap 4. and you in particular hold a Dòctrine different from the rest That Attrition alone is sufficient and that whether it be Attrition or Contrition it requires the extirpation of all vicious habits which you say is a thing of difficulty and tyme and cannot be performed in an instant and what sinner though repenting himself never so hartily at the houre of his death can be saved with this your kind of Repentance which at that houre is an impossible thing From dead works What will you vnderstand by dead works You know many chiefe Protestants hold all our best works to be of themselves not only dead but deadly sinnes and so Repentance of dead workes must signify Repentance that ever we haue done any good that we haue believed hoped and loved God and our neighbour obeyed our Parents kept any of the Commandements c And if you consider the person from whom they proceed in case he be predestinated no sin can hurt him whatsoever he doe To the former Repentance is needless to the latter fruitless How then do Protestants agree in the necessity of Repentance from dead workes or in Repentance itself For the second Point Faith in Christ Iesus the Son of God and Saviour of the world there is not one word wherin Protestants agree for the sense Faith You say A probable Faith is sufficient all others deny it professiing that Christian Faith necessary to salvation must be infalible and therfory you cannot be saved by your kind of Faith even by the doome of Protestants and in that respect all men who haue care of their soules ought to detest your Doctrine and Booke But do those other Protestants agree among themselves what Faith is necessary and sufficient for salvation They do not Some hold that Faith necessary and sufficient for Justification is that wherby one believes certainly that his sinnes are forgiven and that they are forgiven even by believing so according to which Doctrine what necessity can there be of Repentance Seing men are justifyed precisely by such a Faith and how then did you tell vs that Protestants agree in the necessity of Repentance from dead works Of which strang kind of Faith He whom you call the learned Grotius in his Discussio Riveriani Apologetici c Pag 2â—0 saith very truly Evangelij vox haec est Resipiscite Facite fructus dignos Poenetentiae adhortamini vosmetipsos per singulos dies donec hodie nominetur vt non obduretur quis ex vobis fallacia peccati Terra proferens spinas tribulos proxima est maledictioni cujus consummatioin combustionem At Riveti eique similium longè alia agendiratio remissa tibi sunt peccata Vnde id sciam Debes id credere At quo Argumento cum non remitantur omnibus Remissa sunt credentibus Et quid credentibus Remissa sibi esse peccata Mirus verò circulus Ita si istos sequimur remissio est causa credendi nihil enim credi debet factum esse nisi quod factum est contra credere causa remissionis quia conditio est requisita ad remissionem Haec verè sunt inextricabilia Faith in Christ Jesus the Son of God and Saviour of the world Who is ignorant how deeply Protestants disagree in these points You Socinians absolutely deny Christ Jesus to be the Son of God and Consubstantiall to his Father and Potter Pag 113.114 cites the doctrine of some whom he termes men of great learning and judgment that all who profess to loue and honour Iesus Christ are in the Visible Christian Church and by Catholikes to be reputed Brethren One of these men of great learning and judgment cited by Potter is Thomas Morton who in his Treatise of the Kingdome of Israel teaches that the Churches of Arians who denyed our Saviour Christ to be God are to be accounted the Church of God because they hold the Foundation of the Ghospell which is Faith in Iesus Christ the Son of God and saviour of the world Which are your very words Wherin appeares your hypocrisy in calling Christ the Son of God which men will conceaue you vnderstand as all good Christians do that he is consubstantiall to his Father wheras you meane only as the Arians did that he was the Son of God by conjunction of will or some such accidentall way aÌ„d so ProtestaÌ„ts do not agree in a point simply necessary Saviour of the world For SociniaÌ„s deny Christ to haue satisfyed for the sins of the world as may be seene in Volkelius Lib 4. Cap 2. and Cap 22. against other Protastants who in an other extreme hold that he alone satisfied so as no satisfaction is required at our hands though wee tell them that such our satisfaction depends on and taks all its valve from his You are an excellent advocate for Potter seing you differ from him in this Point which Pag 242. he calls that most important and
this Objection which he makes to himselfe were clearly impertinent and foolish if he could haue dispatched all by saying we erre in essentiall points which had been an evident and more than a just cause to justify their separation which yet appeares further by his Answer to the sayd Objection That to depart from a particular Church and namely from the Church of Rome in some Doctrines and practises there might be just and necessary cause though the Church of Rome wanted nothing neâ—essary to salvation And afterward in the next P. 76. speaking of the Church of Rome he saith expressly Her Communion we forsake not no more than the Body of Christ wherof we acknowledg the Church of Rome to be a member though corrupted And this cleares vs from the imputation of Schisme whose property it is to cut of from the Body of Christ and the hope of salvation the Church from which it separates But if she did erre in any one Fundamentall point by that very errour she would cease to be a member of the Body of Christ and should be cut of from the hope of salvation therfore she doth not erre in any Fundamentall Point P. 83. we were never disioyned from her the Church of Rome in those maine essentiall truths which giue her the name and essence of a Church You must then say that she erres not in any Fundamentall Point For the essence of a Church cannot consist with any such errour And that it may appeare how desirous he is that it should be believed Catholiks and Protestants not to differ in the essence of Religion he adds these words immediatly after those which we haue last cited wherof if the Mistaker doubt he may be better informed by some late Roman Catholique Writers One of France who hath purposely in a large Treatise proved as be believes the Hugonots and Catholikes of that Kingdome to be all of the same Church and Religion because of the truths agreed vpon by both And another of our Country as it is sayd who hath lately published a large Catalogue of learned Authors both Papists and Protestants who are all of the same mynd Thus you see he ransacks all kind of proofes to shew that Catholikes and Protestants differ not in the substance and essence of Faith and to that end cites for Catholike Writers those two who can be no Catholiks as Charity Maintayned Part 1. Chap 3. Pag 104. shewes the former in particular to be a plaine Heretike or rather Atheist Lucian-like jeasting at all Religion Pag 78. he saith we hope and thinke very well of all those Holy and devout soules which in former Ages lived and dyed in the Church of Rome Nay our Charity reaches further to all those at this day who in simplicity of heart belieue the Roman Religion and professe it To these words of the Doctour if we subsume But it were impossble that any can be saved even by Ignorance or any simplicity of heart if he erre in a Fundamentall point because as by every such errour a Church ceases to be a Church so every particular person ceases to be a member of the true Churchs the Conclusion will be that we do not erre in any Fundamentall point Nay Pag 79. he saith further we belieue it the Roman Religion safe that is by Gods great Mercy not damnable to some such as belieue what they professe But we belieue it not safe but very dangerous if not certainly damnable to such as profess it when they belieue or if their hearts were vpright and not perversely obstinate might belieue the contrary Behold we are not only in a possibility to be saved we are even safe vpon condition we belieue that Faith to be true which we professe and for which we haue suffered so long so great and so many losses in all kinds which if we did vndergoe for extetnall profession of that Faith which we do not inwardly belieue to betrue we should deserue rather to be begged for fooles than persecuted for our Religion In the meane tyme every Catholike hath this comfort that he is safe even by the confession of an Adversary if he be not a foolish dissembler which would be cause of damnation in a Protestant or any other Even the profession of a truth believed to be false is a sin But I returne to say it were impossible for any Roman Catholike to be safe vpon what condition soever if we erre in any one Fundamentall Article of Faith Here I must briefly note that wheras Dr. Potter in the words now alledged saith It is not damnable to some and then to declare who those some are adds such as belieue what they profess Chillingworth Pag 404. N. 29. leaves out the distinction or comma placed betweene some and such and puts it after damnable Thus Not damnable to some such as beleue what they professe which words may signify that it is not safe to all such as belieue what they professe which may much alter the sense of Potters words as the Reader will perceiue by comparing them 149. Now Sir who will not wonder at your so often declaiming against Charity Maintayned for saying Dr Potter taught that the Roman Church doth not erre in Fundamentall Points But what if your selfe say the same It is cleare you do so For wheras Charity Maintayned Part 1. Pag 15. N. 13. saith Since Dr. Potter will be forced to grant that there can be assigned no visible true Church of Christ distinct from the Church of Rome and such Churches as greed with her when Luther first appeared I desire him to declare whether it do not follow that she hath not erred Fundamentally because every such errour destroyes the nature and being of a Church and so our Saviour Christ should haue had no visible Church on Earth To these words which you thought fit to set downe very imperfectly you answer Pag 16 N. 20. In this manner I say in our sense of the word Fundamentall it does follow For if it be true that there was then no Church distinct from the Roman then it must be either because there was no Church at all which we deny or because the Roman Church was the whole Church which we also deny Or because she was a part of the whole which we grant And if she were a true Part of the Church then she retained those truths which were simply necessary to salvation and held no errours which were inevitably and vnpardonably destructiue of it For this is precisely necessary to constitute any man or any Church a member of the Church Catholique In our sense therfore of the word Fuudamentall I hope she erred not Fundamentally But in your sense of the word I feare she did That is she held some thing to be Divine Revelation which was not some thing not to be which was You haue spoken so clearly and fully in favour of the Roman Church and not only affirmed but proved that she did not erre in any Fundamentall