not onely minister the communion to in 〈…〉 ntes contrary to the doctrin of the Apostle Let a man â—xamine himselfe c but also that they thought it ne 〈…〉 ssarie for them in paine of damnation to receiue the â—ommunion which error I supposed the papistes them â—â—lues woulde not defend Heere first Bristowe accuâ—eth my boldnesse in that I affirme the Papistes will not â—efende this error and secondly my wilfull ignorance â—hat I neuer redde the councell of Trent wherein it is â—eclared that they doe defend it with an admonition to his couÌ„trie men what blind guids they haue of me and such as I am c. Concerning the boldenesse I desire â—ardon of the Papistes if I thought not so euell of theÌ„â—s they deserue And touching my wilfull ignorance â—nd blindnesse I must needes vse the prouerbe Who â—s so bolde as blinde Bayarde Bristowe which so conâ—tantly affirmeth that it was not possible for him to â—nowe Fulke neuer redde the councell of Trent and that iâ—â—tterly false for as I knowe I haue redde it so suppose 〈◊〉 haue redd it before Bristowe But admitte I had neâ—er seene the report of that 5. session vnder Pius the 4. which was helde the 16. day of Iuly 1562 are all blinde guides that neuer sawe that session O waightie censure of a proude papist whiche by a fault called of the Greekes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thinketh that to bee the highest point of learning which he hath learned latest But what if the councell of Trent doe not onely acknowledge it to bee an error but also doe anathematise all them that holde the contrarie Then haue I not slaundered the Papistes but Bristowe hath slaundered mee The verie wordes cited by Bristowe out of the 4. Cap. shewe that the Papistes helde it for an error that it is necessarie for infantes to receiue the communion That infantes lacking the vse of reason are by no necessitie bound to the sacramentall receiuing of the Eucharist Also the fourth Canon of the same session thundereth out anathema against them that say otherwise Si quis dixerit parvulis antequam ad annos discretionis pervenerint necessariam esse Eucharistiae communionem Anathema sit If any man shall say that the communion of the Eucharist is necessarie for infants before they come to the yeares of discretion let him be accursed But the same councel in the Chapter by Bristow cited affirmeth that Antiquitie is not to be condemned if it practised that maner sometime in some places and that without controuersie it must be beleeued that they did it not for anie necessitie of saluation And this declaration saith Bristow may suffice not onely all Catholikes to whoÌ„ it is the declaration of the holy Ghost himself but also any other reasonable man Indeede if any resonable man wil be satisfied with such a grosse ledging of the whole matter in controuersie it is a good satisfaction The councel of Trent saith so therefore although Augustine Pope Innocentius other witnesses of antiquitie say the coÌ„trary of themselues yet we must not beleue them That Kemnitius a Lutheran toucheth not this error of the couÌ„cell of Trent it is a great argument such as Bristowe often vseth that it is no error Kemnitius if he had beene as quicke eyed as Bernard yet saw not all things neither was he bound to confute all errors that he sawe But for further satisfaction of all men Bristow will open the case particularly which is this in effect The Pelagians affirmed that children without baptisme should haue euerlasting life although not in the kingdome of God Wherevnto the Catholikes replied they could not haue eternall life except they did eate the flesh of Christ and drinke his bloud in the coÌ„munion but the communion they could not receiue before they were baptised therefore without baptisme they could not haue eternal life Now Bristowe putting the case that a childe were baptised and then immediately dyed before he receyued sacramentally the Eucharist demandeth whether the father granting to such a childe by force of baptisme remission of sinnes do not also allowe him eternall life and the kingdome of God And let any man saith he bring me one place of those Doctors speaking to this case holding the contrarie I aunswere seeing they vsed immediately after â—aptisme to communicat the infant the case that Bristow â—utteth is too rare to happen in 500 yeres that any queâ—â—ion might grow vpon it But what their opinion was â—f the necessitie of the one sacrament as much as the oâ—her it is easie to proue both by their argument which Bristow confesseth they vsed also by their own words whatsoeuer the blind guides of the Tridentine councel â—ay in their defence They brought in the Eucharist saith Bristow onely to proue that baptisme is necessary to the euerlasting life of children Verie well but what force â—n the worlde hath that argument of the Euchariste for the necessitie of baptisme if the Eucharist also bee not necessarie for children For the Pelagians might reply that if the Euchariste be not necessarie no more is baptisme for the atteyning of eternal life But those fathers labored to prooue the necessitie of baptisme for infants by the necessitie of the Euchariste for infantes And this appeareth by many places of S. Augustine As cont Iul. â—ib 1. cap. 2. Where he speaketh of Innocentius Bishosh of Rome Qui parvulos c. which hath defined that infantes except they eate the flesh of the son of man can haue no life at all in theÌ„ And there he meaneth of eating sacrameÌ„tally as his owne words cited by Augustine declare Cont. duas Epist. Pelag lib. 2. cap. 4. speaking of the rescript of Innocentius to the Bishops of Numidia Nónne apertissimè de parvulis loquitur Haec enim ejus verba sunt c. Doth he not most manifestly speake of infantes For these are his owne wordes Illud verò quòd eos vestra fraternitas asserit praedicare c. But concerning that your brotherhood affirmeth them to preach that infants may be rewarded with the rewards of eternal life euen without the grace of baptisme it is a verie foolish thing For excepte they shall eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud they shall haue no life in themselues But they which defend theÌ„ to haue this life without regeneratioÌ„ seeme to me that they would make frustrate baptisme it selfe when they preach them to haue that which we beleue is not to be conferred vpon them but by baptisme c. And within fewe lines after Augustine saith Ecce beatae memoriae c. Beholde Pope Innocentius of blessed memorie saith that infantes haue not life without the baptisme of Christ and without participation of the body and bloud of Christ. Agayne lib. 1. Cap. 2. hee speaketh against the Pelagians which granted that baptisme was necessarie for infantes to attaine to the kingdome of heauen but not for remission of sinnes Nec illud cogitatis c.
Neither doe you consider this that they cannot haue life which are expertes without part of the body and bloude of Christ seeing hee sayth himselfe Except you shall eate my fleshe and drinke my bloude you shall haue no life in you Agayne Contra Pelagianos Hypognost lib. 5. Si enim intelligeretis crederetis quare dixerit Dominus Non opus est san◠medicus c. If you did vnderstande you woulde beleeue wherefore our Lorde saide The whole neede not the Phisition but they that are sicke you would beleeue truely that they are not whole but wounded which are offered to be healed to our sauiour the Phisition at the station of Baptisme and that they shoulde not haue life except they eate the fleshe and drinke the bloud of him which is life For he him selfe hath said Except ye shall eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud you shal not haue eternall life in you and hee which eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud hath eternall life Howe therefore doe you promise the life of the kingdome of heauen to infantes not borne againe of water and the holy Ghost Non cibatis carne atque non potatis not fedd with the flesh of Christ and which haue not dronke the bloud of Christ which is shedde for the remission of sinnes For it is his decree If any man bee not borne againe of water and of the holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdome of heauen For to enter into the kingdome of heauen is none other thing but to liue in a blessed life which remayneth for euer and euer Beholde hee which is not baptised and he also which is depriued of the vital meate and cup is diuided from the kingdome of heauen c. To the like effecte hee writeth Contra duas Epist. Pelag. ad Bon. lib. 4. cap. 4. Si omnibus c. If reconciliation by Christ be necessarie for all men sinne hath passed oouer all men by which wee were enimies that we haue neede of reconciliation This reconciliation is in the lauer of regeneration and in the body and bloude of Christ without the which no not infantes can haue life in themselues Also Contra Iulian lib. 3. cap. 11. deriding his pietie that infantes shoulde be damned for not doing that which they coulde not doe he addeth Vbi etiam ponis c. where also wilt thou place them because they shall lacke life seeing they haue not eaten the flesh of the Sonne of mā nor drunke his bloude Also de peccatorū meritis remissione lib. 1. cap. 20. a place cited by Bristowe but mingled with many intersections of his owne as his maner is After Augustine hath rehearsed the text Ioan. 6. Except ye eate c hee addeth Quid vltrà querimus c. What seeke wee further What can they aunswere to this except stubbornes doe stretch their striuing sinowes against the constancie of the manifest trueth Or dare any man say this also that this sentence pertayneth not to infantes and that they may without the participation of this body and bloud haue life in them c Likewise cap. 24. he saith Optimè Punici c. Best of all the Christians of Africa do call baptisme it selfe nothing else but health and the sacrament of the body of Christ nothing else but life Whence but of an auncient as I thinke and apostolike tradition by which they holde it ingrafted vnto the Church of Christ that without baptisme and participation of the Lordes table no man at all can come not onely not to the kingdome of God but neither to health life euerlasting For this also the scripture testifieth according to those thinges which wee haue sayde before For what other thing doe they holde which call baptisme by the name of health but that which is sayde hee hath saued vs by the lauer of regeneration and that which Peter saith so also doeth baptisme in like manner saue you What other thing also doe they holde which call the sacrament of our Lordes table life but that which is saide I am the breade of life which came downe from heauen and the breade which I will giue is my fleshe for the life of the worlde And except ye shall eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud ye shall haue no life in you If therefore as so many and so greate testimonies of GOD doe consent that neither health nor life eternall without baptisme and the body and bloud of our Lord is to be hoped to any body in vaine without these is it promised to Infantes Furthermore if from health and life eternall nothing but sinnes do separate by these sacramentes nothing but the guilt of sinne is loosed in infantes These places of Augustine I haue rehearsed the more at large that the impudencie of the councell of Trent and of their poore patrone Bristowe might appeare whiche would excuse the errour of the auncient Churche and of the Bishoppe of Rome in those times in saying that albeit they vsed to minister the communion to infantes yet they did it not for any necessitie to saluation whereas the contrary by so many places and more then I haue rehearsed doth most manifestly appeare As for the practise whiche he confesseth of giuing that sacrament to infantes he saith is not against Probet seipsum c. Let a man examine himselfe c. Because that infantes may examine them selues by others whiche is a monstrous kinde of speache as well as beleeue and repent by others Here is one errour of Augustine defended by an other of his for infantes are not baptized for the faith of other men but because they are comprehended within the covenant of GOD to whome baptisme is no more to be denied then circumcision was to the infantes of the Iewes The Prophet sayeth Iustus c. The righteous man shall liue by his owne faith It is not the faith of other men that can procure life vnto vs. Neither is faith required of infantes before they can heare the worde of God which is the onely ordinary meanes by whiche faith commeth But infantes sayeth Bristowe bee in no mortall sinnes being newely baptized and therefore they neede no examination for feare least they should come vnworthily Saint Augustine confesseth that hee was in mortall sinne euen in his infancie Imbecillitas membrorum infantium innocens est non animus infantium The weakenesse of the members of infantes is innocent not the minde of infantes Afterwarde hee bringeth examples of enuie euen in an infant and at last concludeth Quod si c. And if it be so that I was conceyued in iniquitie and that in sinnes my mother in her wombe nourished me where I beseech thee my GOD when LORDE was I thy seruant where or when was I innocent By this you see there is no shorte time of mans life free from sinne Neither may you cavill that Augustine was not baptised in his infancie seeing he speaketh generally
the first is alreadie done that is predestination the second third is both done is a doing shal be done the is calling iustification but the fourth is now in hope shal be in deede that is glorification The Sacrament of this thing that is of the vnitie of the body bloud of Christ in some places daily in some places by certeine distance of dayes is prepared in the Lords table to some vnto life to some vnto destruction But the thing it self wherof also it is a Sacrament is to euery man vnto life to no man vnto destruction whosoeuer shal be partaker of it You haue therefore gained thus much by your cauilling that neither the flesh and bloud of Christ promised in the sixt of Iohn nor the thing of the Sacrament is the bodie of Christ which sitteth in heauen but the participation of his mysticall bodie and the fellowship or communion of his bodie and the members therof which is the assurance of eternall life But where you saye the Sacrament is that naturall body of Christ which sitteth in heauen you saye beside your booke for neither Augustine nor any ancient father did euer say that the Sacrament of the bodie of Christ was the body of Christ otherwise then after a certeine manner of speaking as Augustine saith Sander The materiall bread was prepared by the Baker ergo the Sacrament prepared in the table is the bodie of Christ. Fulke I denie the argument The Baker prepareth not the Sacrament although he prepare some parte of the earthly matter that is required vnto it more then the sexton prepareth the sacrament of baptisme by powring of water into the font CAP VII Sander Master Iewell hath not disputed well touching the omnipotencie of Christ in promising the gift of 〈◊〉 flesh Harding Christ by shewing his diuine power wherby he will ascend into heauen confoundeth the vnbeliefe of the Capernaites touching the promised substance of his bodie Iewell When ye see Christ ascend whole ye shall see that he giueth not his bodie in such sort as you imagine His grace is not wasted by morsels saith S. Augustine vsâ—â—g Christs ascension to proue that there is no suâ—â— grosse presence in the Sacrament Sander He is not present to be wasted but yet he is really eaten Fulke S. Augustines place sheweth that Christe reasoned not of his omnipotencie or diuine power but of the absence of his humanitie by his ascension and that the thing which he promiseth to be eaten is not his naturall flesh to be bitten in their mouthes but his grace to be receiued by faith in their hearts Iewell This table is the table for Eagles not for Iayes saith Chrysostome Sander I haue answered your iangling of Iayes in my 2. booke Cap. 27. Fulke And I haue confuted your babling of Eagles in the same place Iewell Saint Hierome saith Let vs goe vp with the Lorde into heauen into that great parlour and receiue of him aboue the cuppe of the newe testament Sander He saith not into heauen but into the great parlour which is the kingdome of the Church Fulke But by the greate parlour into which Christ is ascended he meaneth heauen where the kingdome of the Church is and not the earth where the Church is a stranger the worde heauen is added in Master Iewel for explication and not as parte of Ieromes wordes Sander Chrysostome interpreteth the parlour for the Church in Matth. Hom. 38. Fulke Chrysostome was no interpreter of Ierome In allegories euery man hath his owne inuention Sander Christ giueth his bodie and bloude hee is the feastmaker and the feast he gaue that Moses coulde not giue Fulke All is perfourmed in the great parlour which is heauen Wee must receiue of him aboue the cuppe of the new testament Iewell Cyrillus saith Our Sacrament auoucheth not the eating of a man leauing the mindes of the faithfull in vngodly manner to grosse or fleshly cogitations Sander Cyrillus against Nestorius denyeth the Sacrament to be the eating of a bare man not assumpted into God I haue spoken more lib. 2. Cap. 25. Fulke Cyrillus denieth the Sacrament to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the eating of a man and not onely the eating of such a man as Nestorius blasphemed Christ to be See lib. 2. Cap. 25. Sander Cyril saith that Christ setteth before vs the assumpted flesh of the sonne man Fulke Yea but not in the Sacrament only but as it was eaten of the fathers Ad Theod. de rect fide Sander He saith moreouer the worde is not able to be eaten What M. Iewel not by faith yes verily but not by mouth but according to the dispeÌ„satioÌ„ of the vnioÌ„ Fulke God the word is not able to be eaten by faith but in respect of the dispensatiue vnion Cyril speaketh not of eating by mouth for the properties of both natures remaine to be seen of vs by innumerable reasons as it followeth immediatly Graunt eating of his fleshe by mouth and the propertie of the humane nature is cleane ouerthrowen Your charging of master Iewel with the blasphemies of Nestorius deserueth none aunswere Iewell The olde fathers Chrysostome Augustine Leo acknowledge Gods omnipotencie in baptisme yet is not Christ really there Therfore it was vaine labour to alleage his omnipotencie for the reall presence Sander Baptisme hath no promise to be the flesh of Christ therfore you haue lost your labour Fulke Baptisme hath promise to wash vs in the bloud of Christ to incorporate vs into Christ to make vs partakers of his death buriall resurrection Rom. 6. and yet no reall presence required no not of the holy ghost otherwise than by effectuall grace working our regeneration and newe birth Yea Christ doth wash vs in baptisme Ep. 5. CAP. VIII Sander Whether the Catholikes or Sacramentaries expound more vnproperly or inconueniently the wordes belonging to Christes supper Harding Because these places report that Christ gaue at his supper his verie bodie the fathers saye it is really in the Sacrament Iewell A thing is taken to make proofe which is doubtfll and the antecedent is vnproued Sander Said not Christ take eate this is my bodie Fulke This prooueth not that he gaue it in your sense But where do the fathers say it is really present in the Sacrament Iewell The fathers call the Sacrament a figure a token a signe an image c. Therefore Christes wordes may be taken with a metaphor trope or figure Sander It standeth wel togither to be a signe the trueth As Christ is the image of God yet God also Fulke It is impossible to be a signe the thing signified Neither is Christ God the Father of whome hee is the image although he be God Iewell Euen Duns sawe that following the bare letter we must needs say that the bread it self is Christs bodie Sander The place is not quoted therfore it is doubtful for no man beleeueth you Fulke Looke in the fourth booke vpon the sentences The same
Popes superioritie ouer the councell And thirdly that by his presidents he accepted such preâ—idency as the councell woulde graunt without all iuâ—isdiction of compulsion being himselfe compelled to â—â—taine that order of proceeding which the councell before â—is presidencie was admitted had obserued What Leo â—he tenth in his Laterane councell decreed against the â—ouncell of Basil I haue nothing to doe with it except 〈◊〉 be to proue that one pope going against the decrees of â—nother pope and one councell against another that â—either of both is to be credited Howe childish my inâ—ultation is howe voide of victorie my triumph howe â—nsoluble forsooth mine arguments are as Bristow scofâ—eth I leaue to all reasonable men to consider 3. Touching the Constance councels presumption I sayd it was horrible praesumption that the councell of Constance decreede contrarie to the worde of God in plaine wordes That notwithstanding Christ instituted the sacrament to bee receiued in both kindes and that the faithfull in the primitiue Church did so receiue it yet the custome of the Church of Rome shall preuaile and whosoeuer saith contrarie it â—an heretike These wordes he saith I print as though I were a printer which was 70. miles off at least from the place where they were printed in a distincte letter as the plaine wordes of the councell whereas these are not the wordes of the councell Heere is the quarell No sir I neuer ment to print these wordes as the wordes of the councell but as the summe and contente of them which because they were large I woulde not set downe at large in a bymatter But now being urged with falsification or at least false collectioÌ„ I wil set theÌ„ down as they a 〈…〉 CoÌ„ Const sessâ— 13. wtout any such interruptions as is vsâ—al with you to make that you might carie away the simple readen mind from the true sense of theÌ„ Cùm in nonnullis c. wheras in certaine partes of the worlde certeine parsons presume rashly to affirme that Christian people ought to receiue the sacrament of that Euchariste vnder both kindes oâ— bread wine do communicate the lay people euerie where not onely vnder the kind of bread but also vnder 〈◊〉 kinde of wine yea after supper or otherwise not fasting and stubbernely affirme that they ought so to be communicated against the laudable custome of the church resonably approued which as sacrilegious damnably they goe about to reproue hereof it is that this present holy generall councell of Constance lawfully gathered together in the holyghost entending to prouide for the saluation of the faithfull against this error hauing had before ripe deliberation of many Doctors both of the lawe of god and of man declareth decreeth defineth that although Christ after supper did institute minister vnto his disciples this holy sacrament vnder both kindes of bread wine yet this notwithstanding the laudable authoritie of holy Canons the approued custome of the Church hath obserued doth obserue that this sacrament ought not to be made after supper neither to be receiued of the faithful not fasting but in case of sicknesse or other necessitie of right or of the Church graunted or admitted And as this custome to auoide certeine daungers and offences is reasonably brought in that although in the primitiue church this sacrament was receiued of the faithfull vnder both kinds afterward of theÌ„ which make it it is receiued vnder both kinds of the lay people only vnder the kind of bread seeing it ought most stedfastly to be beleeued by no meanes to be doubted but that the whole bodie and bloud of Christ is truly coÌ„tained as wel vnder the kind of bread as vnder the kind of wine WhervpoÌ„ seeing such a custome by the church holy fathers is reasonably brought in hath beene very long obserued it must be takeÌ„ for a law which it is not lawful to reproue or with out the authority of the church to change at mens pleasure â—herfore to say that to keep this custom or law is sacrilege 〈◊〉 vnlawfull it ought to be iudged erroneous and they â—hich stubbernly affirme the contrary of the premisses are 〈◊〉 be driuen away as heretiks to be greuosly punished â—y that dyocessanes of the places or their officials or by the inâ—uisitor of heretical prauity in those kingdomes or proâ—inces in which any thing perhaps shal be attempted or â—resumed against this decree according to the Canonicall â—nd lawful functions which haue ben solemnly inveÌ„ted 〈◊〉 fauour of the Catholike faith against heretikes and â—heir fautors Here you see the prelates of the councel take â—pon theÌ„ as great authority in altering the matter of the saâ—rament which is a necessarie part of the institutioÌ„ therof â—s in ordering the time in which it shal be ministred which â—s no part of the institution therof Also that they confes that â—n the primitiue church the sacrament was receiued in both â—inds therfore they are presuÌ„ptuous to say hoc noÌ„ obstaÌ„te â—his notwtstaÌ„ding the custome of later yeares brought in â—s reasonable shal be obserued as a law the gainsayers â—herof being coÌ„deÌ„ned punished as heretikes Brist caâ—illeth that they say not the custome of the church of Rome as I said As though wheÌ„ they speake of the custome of the church they meane any other church but the church of R. Such bables B. hath to couer their blasphemous sacriâ—legious presumption Touching certain false interpretations of scripture To color the false interpretatioÌ„s folowing he coÌ„meÌ„deth the sayings of August de doct Christ. li. 1. ca. 36. lib. 3. ca. 27. in which first he requireth euery maÌ„ principally to shoote at that sense of the writer in expositioÌ„ of the scripture but if he misse that sense hit any other which is not repugnant to right faith or is profitable to build charity towards god our neighbor he is not perniciously deceiued c. VpoÌ„ this Allen in his offer to that protestaÌ„t saith Ar. 86. 87. Let any man proue vnto me that the true only church of god may falsely interprete any sentence of holy scripture I recant This generall offer without any qualification of not erring perniciouslye or wilfully lying as is conteined in Saint Augustines sayinges vnto whiche Bristowe woulde nowe seeme to make relation I did accept And first I proued that pope Innocent with S. Augustine and all the Westerne Church did falsely interprete this scripture Ioan. 6. Except ye eate c. and that to maintaine a false opinion of the necessitie of the communion for all persons and euen infantes that should haue life euerlasting and therefore repugnant to right faith as is more declared in the 2. part of this chapter Secondly I noted diuerse places of scripture not onely falsely but also ridiculously expouÌ„ded in the second councell of Nice to maintaine idolatrie against the expresse commaundement of God and therefore contrary to the right faith
Bristowe saith that may be and yet the Church not be in their sight a contemptible companie no more then the olde Romanes and Turkes are to vs though we contemne their religion I aunswere I speake of the contempt of the Church not of the persons of men which often times are great Emperors and princes of the world To the place Matth. 10. You shal be hated of all men 〈…〉 r my names sake Bristowe inferreth the company that 〈◊〉 hated is not alwayes contemptible I confesse neither â—id I bring that texte but to shewe the perpetuall hatred â—f the world against the Church But Cyprian writeth â—hat Decius was more patient to heare that an Emperor 〈…〉 as set vp against him then that an other priest should â—e ordeined at Rome in the place of Fabianus This saith â—ristowe was not contempt but of feare Although I â—eny not but tyrants feare the church of God more then â—hey haue cause in respect of their earthly kingdome 〈…〉 t it followeth not but they do also contemne it and 〈…〉 inke their power greater and their glorie superior vntâ— it And in the example of Decius his indignation was â—he greater because the base and contemptible compaâ—y of the Church as he esteemed them durst choose an â—ther Bishop after he had slaine Fabianus purposing to â—estroy the Church vtterly That I alledge 1. Cor. 1. Not many wise men c. He â—â—yeth it was so in the beginning of the Church but not â—lwayes And so I do blindly alledge the text againste â—y selfe Because afterwarde the text saith the wise themâ—â—lues and the strong were confounded that is to saye conuerted 〈◊〉 deede if confusion and conuersion be all one it is â—â—mewhat that you saye but howe will the text beare â—â—at beside the improprietie of the speach that God hath 〈…〉 osen the foolishe things of the worlde that he might â—onuert the wisemen and the weake that he might conâ—ert the strong Last of all God hath chosen the inno 〈…〉 e and contemptible things of the worlde and those â—hings which are not that he might destroy those things â—at are As you say to confound is to conuert so you here best saye to destroy is to saue or else you cannot â—â—rooue the multitude of wise noble and honourable â—ersons that God hath chosen to be greater then those â—hat are reiected As for the textes of Esay 60. 10. â—ited by you and mee speake of the spirituall glorye of the Church not deliuering her from the contemptof the worlde where and among whome shee is a stranger That the church was and also should become inuisiblâ— Concerning the inuisiblenes of the church Bristowe sayeth I alledge so as no sober man would so that â—elike he wil driue me to purge my self of drunkennesse as the Apostles were fainâ— to doâ— Act 2. But what saye 〈◊〉 not sounding of sobrâ—â—tie One while that the vniuersall church of Christ is not seene at all of men because it is in heauen Gal. 4. And here he asketh if euery member be not in heaueÌ„ as the Apostle fayth Our conuersation is in heauen Phil. 3. and Peter the Apostle wâ—â— seene of all men I answere although men be seene iâ— earth yet their conuersation which is in heauen is not seene nor they them selues as they are in heauen with Christ which is our life Col. 3. ver 3. c. So much moâ—â— the vniuersall church being a spirituall coniunction oâ— all the members vnto Christ their head in heauen is noâ— to be seene with bodily eyes vpon earth But another while I say Ar. 80. it sufficeth that the church be knowne to Christ the head as he sayeth My sheepe heare my voice and I know them and to them yâ— be the members of the same body Here Bristowe quarelleth with me if your text import that it sufficeth to be knowne to the head why doe you iumble in the members afterward whether he be sober that vnderstandeâ—â— not a copulatiue proposition let wise men iudge And yet the text proueth as wel the sheepe to knowe one another by hearing Christes voice as Christe knowiâ—g them by his diuine election and prouidence But Bâ—â—stowe so great a craftes man of good conclusions d 〈…〉 deth this consequence Christ knoweth his sheepe 〈◊〉 the church forsooth may be inuisible and so he may for it is of his owne making and not of mine I had no more to proue but that Christ should not be head of an vnknowen body because he knoweth his owne body and the members knowe one another although neither he nor they be knowen vnto the worlde Yet another while I alledge that though not alway◠〈…〉 et at one certeine time it should become inuisible at 〈…〉 he comming of Antichrist or rather when Antichrist 〈…〉 at h preuailed I speake of the church in this world of the inuisiblenes vnto the wicked world what scripâ—ures haue you for that sayth Bristowe Ar. 27. 77. It â—as propheciâ—d that the church should flye into the Wildernesse The defection which saint Paul speaketh of concerning the churches inuisiblenesse I haue proâ—ed howe substantiall the argument is before Cap. 7. Par. 4. But nowe Bristowe opposeth scriptures to proue â—hat the church in the time of Antichrist should be both â—isible and vniuersall For there shal be preaching all the time of persecution by the true witnesses Apoc. 11. euen 1260. dayes or 42. monethes which commeth to three yeares and an halfe But after they be slaine and â—lye vnburied 3. dayes and an halfe which is also the time of Antichristes tyranny and the greatest ruffe of â—is crueltie who shall preache then openly against Antichrist for of such preaching we speake But lest you should imagine these dayes to be common dayes of 24. houres long as you seeme to doe of the 1260. dayes c. you may see that the inhabitants of the earth could not haue time to publish their death and send giftes c. in so short a season as three dayes and an halfe of naturall dayes account But you say the preaching shall be as generall as the persecution That cannot be of so smal 2 number of witnesses For that you quote Apoc. 14. pertaineth to the time of Antichristes consumption towarde the end and his final destruction for immediatly followeth the Angell shewing the fall of Babylon Last of all you obiect Apoc. 20. that the persecutors being in number as the sande of the Sea shall ouer the wide worlde compasse the campe of the faithfull the citie of God therfore the church shal be at the same time vniuersal super latitudinem terrae I doubt not but the church shal be vniuersall in her greatest straits dispersed ouer all the earth when shee is fled into the wildernes which signifieth her desolate condition not her place wout the world but neither of both is proued by the text before alledged For it followeth not although thâ— enimies with their multitude shall come
be carryed vp sir it signifieth to be carried away and seeing the riche man looking vp seeth Lazarus afarre of it followeth that Lazarus was carried vp and not downe But you reply it foloweth not that he was carryed into heauen Then you may say he was carried vp to hell But the places you say might be nigh together in respect of the distance of heauen although one were vpwarde and also farre off both in state and situation purgatorie peraduenture betwixt them This is a goodly faith that standeth vpon peraduenture and this may be c. The Scripture saith ther was a great Chaos which is an infinite distance betweene them which cannot agree to Limbus which must be harde adioyning to hell or else it is not Limbus But if they were no way nigh together sayth he it will not followe that Abrahams bosome was heauen I answere if they were no way nigh together it could not be hell nor Limbus of hell which is the thing I was to proue Also the text is plaine that Abrahams bosome was a place of comfort And other place of comfort then heauen or Paradise which is all one for the soules departed I finde none in Scripture The last argument is this If righteousnesse belong to Abrahams children the rewarde of righteousnesse also perteineth to them Therefore Abrahams bosome was open to receiue all the childrem of Abraham euen as the bosome of God was readie to receiue Abraham because he was his sonne through faith Heere Bristowe noteth no small blasphemie proceeding of grosse ignorance saying That which is proper to vnigenitus the onely begotten sonne of God hee maketh common to Abraham Why Bristowe because vnigenitus is eternally and after his proper manner in the bosome of the father doth it thereof followe that none can be in the bosom of GOD but the proper place of Christ is made common to them You threaten in the 12. Chapter oftentimes to bewray my grosse ignorance in the scriptures and haue you such fine knowledge in them that you coulde not see what Esay writeth Chap. 40. according to your owne translation Ecce dominus Deus c. Beholde the Lorde God shall come in strength and his arme shall haue the dominion beholde his rewarde is with him and his worke before him As a sheepheard hee will feede his flocke hee will gather the Lambes together on his arme and beare them in his bosome in sinâ— suo leuabit Beholde you greate and mightie doctours in the scriptures the bosome of GOD as of a shephearde is open to receiue all his Lambes howe much more as a father to receiue his children But to the argument you aunswere The rewarde of righteousnesse may belong to one and yet not payed him as soone as hee dyeth Saincte Paule saying expresly of Abraham and many of his children that they departed not receiuing the promises but beholding them a farre off and all these renouned by faith receiued not the promise That is saith Bristowe the inheritance the rewarde of righteousnesse I replye the rewarde of righteousnesse cannot belonge to one but it must bee payed him as soone as it is payed vnto others to whome the same rewarde vppon the same cause belongeth therefore seeing it is payed to some immediately after their death it is likewise to all That manie dyed not receiuing the promises is partelie vnderstoode of the promises of the lande of Canaan partelye of the full fruition and perfection of rewarde which to all men is denyed before the laste iudgement and so no inequalitie or vniustice vnto any Whether since Christ all goe straight to heauen They that liue vnto Christe dye vnto him and being disolued are with him The soules of the faithfull and the repentant are where Christ is as hee prayeth â—oan 17. so hee saith to the theefe no perfecte iuste â—an but a sinner repentaunt This day thou shalt â—ee with mee in Paradise Luke 23. And Saincte Pâ—ule desireth to bee dissolued and to bee with Christ. To leaue his iugling of seeing Christes godheades glorie and manhoodes glorie whereof I speake no worde hee confesseth the example of Sainct Paul declareth that a perâ—ect iust man goeth straight to Christ Likewise the example if the theefe declareth that a penitent sinner goeth straight to Christ if either his penaunce bee full and perfect or his pardon which is a remission of his penance be plenarie By this you perceiue that penance with him is taken for punishment satisfactory and not for repentaunce of the hearte and true conuersion vnto GOD But there is a plenarie pardon and satisfaction for all sinnes giuen to euerie penitent sinner therefore euery penitent sinner goeth streight to Christ whom we knowe and beleeue to be in heauen The minor is proued by sainct Iohn 1. Iohn 2. Iesus Christ is our aduocate and propitiation for our sinnes The bloude of Iesus Christe doth purge vs from all sinnes Secondly hee saith I allude to a place Romans 14. wee liue to our Lorde and wee die to our Lord whereby nothing else is ment but that hee is our iudge in life and death A bare exposition if wee haue no more comforte by liuing to the Lorde then that hee shall bee our iudge at our death Howe be it I grounde not myne argument onelye of that phrase to controll Augustines exposition of them that die in the Lorde Apoca. 14. for martyrs onely as you slaunder mee but compare other places of the faithfull that are asleepe in Christ 1. Corin. 15. And they that are deade in Christ 1. Thessalonians 4. where the phrases being all one with that of Apoca. 14. blessed are the deade that dye in the Lorde that text cannot bee restrained onely to the blessednesse of martyrs but extendeth to the happinesse of all that are deade in the Lorde which are all the faithfull But the circumstance of the place saith Bristowe giueth it to bee meant of martyrs I aunswere there is no circumstance that can proue it to bee spoken onely of Martyrs seeing the argument of their blessednesse is dying in the Lorde whiche is common to all the faithfull therefore blessednesse also and that is the iudgement of S. Augustine de ciu dei lib. 20 Cap. 9. whatsoeuer Allen or you prate to the contrarie For after the text rehearsed he writeth thus vpon it Reg. nat itaque The Church therefore nowe first reineth with Christ in the lyuing and in the deade For therefore as the Apostle saith Christ dyed that he shoulde be Lorde ouer the liuing and ouer the deade But therefore he named onely the soules of the Martyrs because they as the chiefe reigne being deade which vnto death striued for the truthe But by a part we vnderstand the whole euen the rest that are deade pertaining to the Church which is the kingdom of Christ. Whether that iudgement may stande with Purgatorie My first argument he maketh of the true falling to the North or South and so resting which in
hereticall braines After which manner it is easie to defeÌ„d that they say nothing against any heresie which they doe not condemne by name although they plainly aduouche the trueth against such errour 3 I ioygne with him neuerthelesse particularly Although they ascribe not infallibilitie to a fewe but onely to the vniforme consent of the doctours yet he is content to ioyne vppon this issue that the protestants haue not against them for any one article at all so much as any one doctour at all Howe he auoydeth mine euidence you shall see in that which followeth The second parte Of his doctors particularly First whether they expound any scripture against vs. As touching antichrist I sayd Pur. 249. The seat of antichrist was apointed to be set vp in the Latin church according to the reuelation of Saint Iohn and the exposition of Ireneus who iudged that Lateinos was that number of the beasts name spokeÌ„ of Apoc. 13. To this Bristoâ—â— answereth here are two ragged conclusioÌ„s The first antichrist was appointed to be set vp in the Latin church ergo the Pope of Rome is antichrist No sir I made no such argument but of the authoritie of Irenaeus I proued that the seat of antichrist was appointed to be set vp in the Latine church and therfore superstition was somewhat forwarder then in the Greeke church The other conclusion sayeth Bristowe is this Irenaeus iudged that Lateinos should be the name of antichrist as Iesus was and is the name of Christ ergo he iudged that antichrist was apointed to be set vp in the Latin church I answere the antecedent is yours Master Bristowe and not mine For I sayd not that Irenaeus iudged that Lateinus should be the name of antichrist as Iesus is the name of Christ as though antichrist should be a singular man For Irenaeus sayeth it in respect of his kingdome which should be in the Latine part of the world Vâ—lde verisimile est quoniam verissimum regnum hoc habâ—â— vocabulum It is verie like because the moste true kingdome hath that name which was the kingdome of the Romanes Therefore wee must seeke in the Romane kingdome for antichist in which kingdome haue reigned hitherto Emperours and Popes Emperours haue beene heathenish Christened the heathenish it could not be because antichrist must sit in the Church and they were altogether without Of the Emperours some were Catholike and some hereticall The Catholike no man will charge the hereticall Emperors were no false Prophets as antichrist must be a false teacher that with lying signes and wonders shall deceiue the world wherefore it remaineth that of all that haue hitherto reigned in the Latine Empire the Pope must bee that principall antichrist For Caluine and Luther whome Bristowe fondly nameth to be in the Latine Churche neuer bare rule in the Latine kingdome Bristowes last refuge is that Irenaeus did not so iudge Hee onely sayeth it is very like to be so I aske no more but his iudgement of the likelyhod For I knowe hee reciteth other names which haue in them the same number as Euan Teitan and in the ende will pronounce certeinly of none holding that it is better to expect the fulfilling of the Prophecy then to pronounce rashly of any But seeing antichrist is alreadie reuealed and all the prophecy of his apostasie and seduction accomplished wee doubt not to ioyne to that auncient likelyhod of Irenaeus the later likelyhodes of the same name agreeing in number with Lateinos in Greeke Romiith in Hebrewe not neglecting Ecclesia Italica The consent of all which names signifying the region the citie the kingdom beare so harde vpon the Pope the popish church of Rome that Bristowe though he laye both his shoulders to it shall neuer be able to remoue it Secondly I sayde of Hierom Pur. 373. Hee was not such a slaue to the church of Rome that whatsoeuer pleased the bishops of that see he was readie to accept For then he would not haue beene so bold to call Rome the purple whore of Babylon Praef. ad Paul in lib. Didym Bristow replyeth as though when he calleth Rome so or when Augustine calleth it the Westerne Babylon they meane the church of Rome I sayed not they meane the church of Rome as it was in their time but that antichrist shoulde sit at Rome whome the scripture sayeth must sit in the temple or Church of God 2. Thes. 2. Neither doeth Augustine meane it of the empire but of antichrist which should arise in the Romane empire Neither doeth Hierom meane of the Paganisme of Rome that remained in his time which in the place by Brist cited ad Marcell Ep. 16. he testifieth to haue ben trovnder feete but of the purple whore sitting aloft vpon the rose coulered beast of the wine of whose fornication all nations were made drunken of the blasphemie written in her forehead of the seuen hilles c. although in his tyme he confesse there was the churche of God the tryumphe of the Apostles and Martyrs c. gentilitate calcata Gentilitie being troaden vnder feete the Christian name dayly lifting it selfe aloft But that Hierom in doubtes did seeke for resolution of Damasus bishop of Rome and that all other must likewise doe Bristowe citeth his Epistle ad Damasum To 〈…〉 2. in which he consulteth with Damasus whether hee should vse the name of Hippostasis and saith further that whosoeuer gathereth not with Damasus doth scatter that is to saye whoso is not Christes is antichrists I aunswere all this was well so long as Damasus was a Catholike bishop but that Saint Hierome was not readie to accept whatsoeuer it pleased the bishop of Rome it is manifest by that he affirmeth Liberius to haue subscribed to the Arrians in Catal. script which he would neuer haue done if he had thought it impossible for the bishop of Rome to erre or necessarie for him to followe the bishop of Romes doctrine in all things The place cited ad Damasum with answere to it is in my confutation of Saunders Rocke Cap. 15. And therefore the saying of Leo Epist. 89. That Christ tooke Peter into the participation of the vndiuided vnitie proueth not that it is all one to be Peters and to be Christes when Peter erreth from Christe and much lesse that it is all one as Bristowe sayeth to be in vnitie with Peter and his successours meaning the Popes and to be in vnitie with Christ from whome not onely all Popes in matter now of controuersie doe But diuerse of the Bishops Popes of Rome haue beene deuided into horrible and confessed errours and heresies of both partes as Gentilisme Arrianisme Euâ—ichianisme Menothelitisme Sadduceisme Againe I saide Pur. 320. Which of your prelates wil follow Ambrose in his coÌ„mentarie vpoÌ„ the Apocalipse where he interpreteth the whore of Babylon to be the citie of Rome whose wordes Bristow wil recite for me This whore doth betoken in some places Rome in special
bene proued by a number of them Iohn the 〈◊〉 being condemned for denying the immort 〈…〉 of the â—â—ale Other Popes of our time calling the Gospel a fable of Christ requiring there pork in despite of God openly blaspheming his maiestie c. As for the Godhead of Christ and honor due to his â—anhoode in respect of the vnitie of person is nedelesse â—boâ— to prooue the adoration of the Sacrament except â—s adunation to the sacrament in one person bee first â—ooued But Esay saith Chap. 2. The Lorde aboue shall bee â—xalted in that daye and Idols shall be vtterly destroiâ—d It is verie true where the Lorde is exalted but that 〈◊〉 not in all places of the worlde neither euer was but â—nely where God hath set vp his true Church which is â—is kingdome Therefore all the prophecies cited by â—ander Ier. 30. Ez. 30. Mich. 1. Zoph 2. Zac. 13. Psa. 9. an â—undreth more that are of the abolishing of Idols and idoâ—atrie are to be vnderstood abolishing theÌ„ sroÌ„ the true â—ingdom Church of Christ not out of all the world â—r out of the kingdome of Antichrist and companie of â—alse Christians as Sander woulde beare fooles in hand And I meruell if any be so foolish to be persuaded that there can be no Idolatrie coÌ„mitted in worshipping that for God and Christ which is a meere creature But Saint Augustin writeth in lib. de diuin dâ—m That it was forespoken of the Prophets that the Gentiles should worship one God the false Gods whome they worshipped before being cast out S. Aug. saith truely of the Gentils they are become true Christians But were al the Gentils such froÌ„ the comming of Christ vnto S. Augustines time which was 400. yeres or be al the gentiles such at this day yea were there not of theÌ„ that were called Christians worshippers of Images in S. Augustines time Doeth he not write De moribus eccl Cath. lib. 1. Chap. â—4 of false Christians Nouimultos esse sepulchrorum picturarum adoratores I knowe there are manie of theÌ„ which are worshippers of sepulchres and pictures See then if Sander haue any shame to cite Augustine for his purpose which is that no Idolatrie can bee committed since Christes time especially of them that are called Christians Beside Augustine hee abuseth the name of Athanasius de inâ—ar verb. Vbi nominatur c. Where Christ or his faith is named thence al Idolatrie is driuen yâ— deceitful guiles of the diuel are detected made open Loe saith Sand 〈…〉 name of Christ putteth away all Idolatrie Yea sir where it 〈◊〉 truely professed beleeued not wheresoeuer it is â—ounded heard with the outward eares This therfore proâ—â—â— not the contrary but Papistes worshippers of bread 〈◊〉 yea of stockes stones be Idolaters as well as the barbâ—rous people in the new Indies where Christ Christiâ—â— faith is named but not imbraced nor beleued oftentiâ—â— of the namers theÌ„selues But Ie. in li. 2. in Esa ca. 4. affirmeâ—â— Post c. after the coÌ„ming of Christ al idols to haue holdâ—â— their peace If Sand. were not a proud asse which disdâ—â—neth to learne I would teach him that Ierom speaketh oâ—â— oracles answeres which by the diuel are giuen at diuâ—â— idols al which not only IeroÌ„ a christiaÌ„ but also Plutaâ—â—â— an heathen man affirmeth froÌ„ that time to haue ceased and not to haue spoken any more But Hierom was neue◠〈◊〉 impudent to affirme that there could be no idolatry coÌ„mâ—â—ted since the time of Christ. Yet San. affirmeth that lightly nâ—â— so much as any heretik yet hath professed to worshipâ—â—â— artificial Idol made with the hands of maÌ„ You may se hâ—â— lightly this man is seene in the old writers or els how impudently he disseÌ„bleth that which he knoweth First Simâ—â— Magus accounted the father of al heretikes did set forth the Images of himselfe and of Helena his harlot to be worshipped of his disciples euen as the Images of Iupiter Minerua c. were among the Gentiles Epiphaniâ—â— lib. 1. Tom. 2. praefat and Augu. Haer. 1. Secondly Carpâ—crates made Images priuily of Iesus and of Paul and 〈◊〉 Homer and of Pythagoras and did offer incense vnto them and worship them Epiph. and Aug. Lib. 6. Thirdly the Gnostikes had Images painted in colours and some of golde and siluer and other matter which they saide were the Images of Iesus made vnder Pontius Pilate wheÌ„ he liued among men Epiph. Haer. 27. Fourthly the Melchisedechians which were in Arabia Petraea Robam and Edom worshipped the Image of Moses which they made Epip contra Melch. Haer. 55. Finally the Collyridians committed Idolatrie vnto the Virgine Marie Epipha cont Collyrid Haer. 79. Beside so many false Christians as in S. Augustines time worshipped pictures sepulchres And to omit them that worshipped Images in France whoÌ„ Gregorie vnto Serenus affirmeth to haue committed Idolatrie although he disallowed the breaking of the Images But Papists are not so insensible saith Sand. to worship bread made with the bakers hand why not as well as to worship metal wood stone in your images yet Chrysostome saith there were fewe cities left in his time in which Idolatrie was vsed there is no citie in Christendome where the sacrament hath not ben worshipped saith Sander for so many hundreth yeares Yes sir where the Waldenses were in Calabria in France Boëmia other places your bread worship preuailed not And God be thanked there are nowe many hundred cities in which that Idolatry is not openly coÌ„mitted except it be by stelth in corners so no doubt but heathenishe Idolatrie was coÌ„mitted in most cities in the world in Chrysostomes time considering what number there were of heathen men in all places Therefore where Sander saith that all Christians for euer haue worshipped the sacrameÌ„t as that very body blod of Christ is vtterly false seeing it is not much aboue 300. yeres since Pope Honorius made the decre of that kind of worship which Sand. defendeth which decree had ben in vain if al ChristiaÌ„s for euer had worshipped it But Sand. at length asketh if ther be no idolatry in ChristendoÌ„ he answereth to much of inward idolatry but no outward idolatry at al. Inward idolatry he couÌ„teth couetousnes heresies so was Luther the first idolater of our age theÌ„ Zuinglius theÌ„ Caluin the sacramentarie english idol the vanitie of which assertion to haue cited is abundanly to haue coÌ„futed He concludeth that to say that the blessed sacrament of Christ is an Idol seemeth necessary to employ that Christ instituted an Idol This implicatioÌ„ must come froÌ„ such a senseles Idol as Sand is for otherwise they that haue eies see eares heare can easily conceiue that an holy sacrameÌ„t instituted by god by abuse of Idolaters may be turned into an Idol as was the brasen serpent therefore was broken by Ezechias Neither did Christ giue any occasion of Idolatrie by his wordes in the