their case seems most pitiable who through the disadvantage of their education want due means of instruction and what allowances our gracious God will make on that and the like accounts is fittest for us to leave to his own infinite wisdom Only let us be careful to regulate our own practices by the plain rule of Gods holy Word which through his favour we so plentifully enjoy L. What you say shall teach me more charity to those of them that are sincere than they will allow to us But I do still more and more perceive how little reason there is for my entring into communion with that Church in which there is so great hazard of Salvation even no more than for my venturing into a Pest-house full of infected persons because it 's possible some of them may have so much strength of nature as to overcome that dangerous distemper T. The case is much the same CHAP. V. Of some particular points in difference betwixt us and the Church of Rome and first of the Popes Supremacy L. HAving now received so full satisfaction in this first great point concerning the true Catholick Church what it is and who are the members of it and being upon good grounds firmly perswaded that the Church of England is a very sound part of this Catholick Church in whose communion therefore by Gods grace I hope to live and die I would in the next place gladly hear you discourse of some of those particular points wherein chiefly the difference lyes betwixt us and the Church of Rome For they alledg many plansible reasons and sometimes quote Scripture for those opinions of theirs which we reject as Popery and therefore I would gladly be furnisht with solid and good answers to these their Allegations T. Most readily shall I afford you my assistance herein Only let me premise that suppose in this or that particular opinion you should fancy their Church had the truth on her side yea though it really was so yet is this no sufficient reason why you should go over to their communion since from what has been said you may discern that their Church has no manner of jurisdiction over ours which we shall presently make more plain and you cannot lawfully desert your own Church meerly because you apprehend there is some error commonly received in it whilst you have liberty to hold communion with it without owning and professing that error And though for my own part I declare I do not know so much as any one material point of difference wherein the Church of Rome has the truth on her side yet this I speak with respect to those who in some particular cases may be of another mind and afterward may have occasion to make use of it accordingly But now proceed to those several points wherein you desire satisfaction L. I will so and shall herein follow the method in which I find them laid down in this little Book to which I have hitherto had recourse And the first thing here mention'd is concerning one Pope in the Church viz. the Bishop of Rome who is they say to be own'd as the visible Head and Governour of the whole Church under Christ. T. This is indeed the most fundamental point of the Romish faith by which chiefly they stand distinguisht from all other Churches and as such I have often upon occasion mention'd it already and have told you that there is not a word of it in the Apostles Creed which is the summ of the Christian Faith nor yet in the Holy Scriptures whence that Creed was taken which may be sufficient prejudice against it but pray what do they alledg in proof of it L. Both this my Author and others commonly plead that as there is one Emperour in an Empire one King in a Kingdom one Master in a family so there should be one Pope in the Church T. I think they should rather infer the quite contrary that as there is a Master in every Family a King in every Kingdom c. so in every Diocess there should be a Bishop and in every Nation a Primate or chief Bishop or else a Synod of Bishops from whom there should lye no appeal to any foreign Bishop whatsoever It would indeed have look'd a little more like an argument for their purpose if they could have said that as there is one Emperor over all the Kings and Kingdoms of the world so there ought to be one Pope over all Bishops and Churches But as it appears impossible for one man to govern the whole world so neither is it much easier for one Bishop to govern all the Christians in the world especially if all Nations should embrace Christianity as every good man desires they should But to let pass their little similies and idle fancies do you think if it had been a matter of such necessity to salvation as Papists say it is to own the Pope as Christs Vicar and visible Head of the Catholick Church do you think I say that our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles would not have told us of it and have given strict command to all Christians to obey him and to seek to his Infallible judgment in all doubts and controversies and submit to his authority for the composing of all differences whereas we now find not one syllable to this purpose either in the Gospel or Epistles but Christians are exhorted to obey their own Rulers both Sacred and Civil and to take the Doctrine delivered by our Blessed Saviour and his Apostles as the Infallible Rule of their faith and manners and no other Head of the Church do we read of but our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to whom all power is given in Heaven and Earth as he himself tells us Matt. 28. 18. But he no where tells us that he hath transfer'd all this power to any mortal man nor setled any person as his Vicar and Deputy-Governour of all the Christian world L. Yes they say Christ gave this priviledg to Saint Peter stiling him the Rock on which he would build his Church and giving him the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Matt. 16 18 19. and from Saint Peter they would have this power to be derived to his Successors the Bishops of Rome T. This is the Text which they commonly bring for their purpose but with how little reason may appear at the very first sight whilst neither is here confer'd upon St. Peter any such power as to be Ruler over all the Christian Church nor the least mention made of any priviledge whatever to be convey'd from him to his Successors at Rome or any other where As to the Rock here spoken of many of the Ancients understand by it the Doctrine which St. Peter had now profest that great fundamental article of the Christian Faith that Iesus was the Christ the Son of the living God But let us suppose it to be meant of his person as he was to be a Preacher of this Doctrine yet
I am ashamed to take notice of it If he had infer'd the quite contrary that therefore they must not be used the reason had been every whit as good that is stark naught But what will not men devise when they are put to their shifts L. I wonder what makes them so stiff in a practice so contrary to Reason Scripture and the usage of the Primitive Church T. It is not very easie to give the reason since some amongst themselves seem ashamed of it and many of their Bishops in the Council of Trent desired to have publick Prayers in a known Tongue but it would not be granted The reason of which as of many other corruptions being still continued seems to be partly from their fear that if they should make one alteration a great many more would follow for if they own themselves to have erred in one thing why not in more and partly to encrease the peoples admiration of the Priest and his Prayers for the less they understand the more prone they are to admire And lastly perhaps there may be this peculiar reason for it that hereby the people may more easily be perswaded of the efficacy of the Priests words for the working that prodigious miracle of Transubstantiation For if they should hear him speak only plain words in their own mother-tongue they could hardly think them of force enough to work such a mighty change whereas in hard words there may be some hidden virtue which they are not aware of But let us go on to what follows CHAP. X. Concerning Confession of sins to the Priest in order to his forgiveness of them L. MY Author next pleads for the custom of confessing sins to the Priest on account of that power which Christ hath given him to absolve and forgive sins Joh. 20. 23. T. As to this matter of Confession of sins in order to absolution in brief I would have you consider that anciently when Church discipline was strictly observed they who had been guilty of notorious scandalous crimes were obliged to make satisfaction to the Church by a publick penitent confession of them and when they had given sufficient evidence of their repentance by submitting to such penance as was imposed on them they were then publickly absolved and received into the communion of the Church from which they were before cast out And whilst the Bishop or Priest did herein proceed according to the rules of the Gospel then what they remitted on earth would be remitted in heaven c. according to Ioh. 20. 23. But by degrees through the corruption of the times and the general loosness of mens manners this publick confession was in a great measure laid aside and instead of it only a private confession to the Priest required and absolution commonly granted upon very easie terms and this is that which is now so zealously pleaded for by those of the Romish Church As to the former our Church highly approves of it as a godly discipline and sometimes it is at this day practised amongst us But as to private confessions there is no absolute necessity of them at all times For when our sins have been private such as have given no offence to the Church or our Neighbours but only to Almighty God here it may suffice that we humbly confess them to God himself speedily forsaking the same and then shall we be sure to find mercy through our Blessed Saviour for so God hath promised in his holy word without requiring us to confess them to men also L. But they commonly urge that of St. Jim 5. 16. Confess your fauâ—â—s one to another c. T. This is indeed very requisite when men have given offence one to another but here is no mention of a Priest to whom this confession ought to be made Or suppose that he is here chiefly intended yet is this confession no further needful than as may give evidence of a sincere repentace and may serve to procure the Priests prayers and directions or sometimes absolution But to this end it 's no way necessary for a man at all times to confess all his private faults L. Yes says my Author we must confess our sins to the Priest that he may judg of them and thereupon absolve the penitent For as Treasons says he committed against the Prince are tried by his Officers so men are to present themselves to the Priest as to a Tribunal that upon confession they may receive forgiveness which the Priest grants as Christs Lieutenant or Deputy T. There is no likeness in the case Princes are but finite creatures and cannot attend to the trial of all causes in their own persons and therefore they employ their Officers who are to hear them and to determine according to Law But Almighty God is himself present every where and always ready to receive the humble confessions of a penitent sinner and upon his sincere repentance will for Christs sake receive him to favour whilst neither Priest nor any mortal man whatsoever may be privy either to his faults or to his confession of them And yet to keep to his similitude as men are not bound to present themselves before the Kings Officers for a trial but when the King by his Law requires it no more are people bound to make confession to the Priest further than God by his word enjoyns it but he has no where enjoyn'd the confession of all our private faults And as the Kings Judges are to pronounce sentence according to Law so must the Priest according to the rules of the Gospel otherwise it is unjust and of no sorce This then I grant that so far as God hath appointed Ministers as his Officers to take notice of the crimes of the people and to pass sentence upon them so far the people are bound to apply themselves to their Ministers to follow their directions and submit to their sentence which if it be just God himself will confirm it Thus when any man is guilty of notorious crimes and by no admonitions will be reclaim'd then may the Minister justly proceed to Excommunicate such an obstinate offender from the society and priviledges of the Christian Church and what he binds on earth shall be bound in heaven that is God approves of this sentence and will ratifie and confirm it so that if this man continue thus impenitent in his wickedness God will shut him out from the Kingdom of Heaven hereafter whom his Ministers have justly cast out of the Church here But if this scandalous sinner shall come in and acknowledg his offences and seriously profess his repentance and give sufficient evidence of the truth of it then hath the Minister whether Bishop or Priest power to absolve him to release him from the censures of the Church and receive him again into communion and may also upon the truth of this his repentance assure him of and declare to him the remission of his sins from God himself who hath given to his Ministers
members of their Church they do separate themselves from all other Christians in the world who disown this Universal Headship of the Pope with the rest of their errors L. But they boast much of the Union of their Church because say they go where you will you shall find the same Worship the same Mass and this frequented in all places where their Church is owned by the members of it T. Still this is but an Union amongst themselves such I say as any party may have Quakers for instance may go to Quakers Meetings where ever they travel and yet still remain a Schismatical party And though I lay no great stress upon it yet formerly even in the Church of Rome however it is now with them they have had much variety in their publick Offices according to the different Usages of different places But still I say be they never so perfectly agreed in their own way of worship as well as in Doctrine there is nothing in this to prove them the One Catholick Church Nay it does not so much as prove them to be One with it as a sound part thereof except their Doctrine and Worship be such as agrees with that of the Catholick Church in all ages For any party I have told you may agree amongst themselves even whilst they are schismatically divided from others L. But they say our Church of England is not thus united because many separate from her Prayers and Sacraments T. And what is there no Unity therefore amongst the members of our Church because there are some who through peevishness weakness or any other cause separate from it Does not the main body of the people of this Kingdom through Gods mercy joyn in Religious communion and can freely resort to any Parish Church where they happen to be If some that live in the Nation will not thus joyn is that an argument against the union of those that do In some Popish Countries are there not many thousands who separate from the Church of Rome And do they take that for a good reason to prove them not to be united who joyn with it I trow not but yet it may do much to prove there is little true union amongst them to consider by what means they are held together viz. partly by force and violence at least in many places and partly by keeping the people in ignorance And is it not a fine kind of union think you to have men chain'd together in Iron fetters and kept in a dark Dungeon where they are not able to stir a foot from each other had they never so much mind And had the people in Italy and Spain but more light and more liberty you would quickly see what vast numbers would depart from their communion there as they have done in other places But ignorance is the bond of their union as well as the mother of their Devotion L. Yet is there nothing more common with them than to cry up the Unity of their Church and to exclaim against the divisions which they say are in ours T. They exclaim against them whilst more ways than one they endeavour to promote them They use also their utmost arts to aggravate and enhance them and make them be thought much greater than they are whilst they cunningly endeavour to lessen and conceal those amongst themselves which yet I reckon to be far greater than even those betwixt our Church and the generality of such as dissent from it And sometimes these their differences have been managed with as much heat and violence and have produced fighting and bloodshed as you will find largely related in the most learned Dr. Stillingfleet's Discourse on that subject But besides this certainly the Papists of all people have little reason to cry out against Schismaticks and Sectaries since they themselves will be found to be as great Schismaticks as any at this day amongst us and as dangerous too if we may judg of them by their principles For besides that the whole Popish Church may justly be accounted Schismatical in dividing it self from the rest of Christendom of which more hereafter those of them who live amongst us do wholly separate from our Church and pass a much more heavy doom upon us than I think most of our other Sectaries do For these do generally acknowledg the Church of England to be a true Church and grant her Doctrine to be sound and good and profess to hold communion with us in faith and love whilst they withdraw from us on account of some Modes and Ceremonies in Divine Worship Thus it is with many of them but now the Papists do plainly declare against our Church and Ministers that we have no true Faith nor Sacraments nor Christian virtue or piety but are cursed Hereticks in the most miserable state of damnation And all this chiefly because we submit not to the usurpation of a foreign power that of the Pope which at least in Spirituals they prefer before the power of our own Governours whether in Church or State So that in obedience to the Bishop of Rome who hath no more to do in England than the Bishop of Ierusalem they make no scruple of disobeying the King and Bishops and all the Laws of the Land at least I say in all matters that relate to Religion And whilst the Pope himself is Judg in the case what may he not hook in under that pretence And therefore may the Papists amongst us justly be reckoned as Schismaticks whilst they refuse communion with that Christian Church where they live which is a sound part of Christs Catholick Church and requires nothing unlawful of its members And very dangerous they are because they prefer a foreign Usurper before all the power of our own Church Especially if you also consider the current Doctrine of their Church that this same Usurper the Bishop of Rome has power to depose Heretical Kings as they account ours and to absolve their subjects from their Allegiance and dispose of their Kingdoms to others And this most intollerable tyranny over Princes have sundry Popes exercised when they have had power in their hands and have more than once attempted it in these Kingdoms Yea to this day many of the rigid and stricter sort of Papists refuse to take the Oath of Allegiance wherein this extravagant power of the Pope is denied Judg then whether I had not reason to say that men retaining these principles and on that account rejecting our communion are themselves such notorious and dangerous Schismaticks as have little reason to accuse others of schisms and divisions L. But though we own not the Pope to be an Infallible Iudg of Controversies have not we sufficient means for union in our Church T. Yes we have so whilst we acknowledg the Holy Scriptures to be the Infallible Rule of Faith in which all things necessary to salvation are plainly revealed and do also grant that the Governours of our Church have power to compose all differences
in other cases T. Good reason you have to be so wary since the boast they make of antiquity being on their side is notoriously vain and false and in nothing more palpably than in the present case about the Popes Universal Supremacy For in none of the ancient Councils is any such priviledge given him any more than in holy Scripture which Councils our Church most readily embraces especially the four first Yea the direct contrary is decreed in the very first and most famous General Council that of Nice For therein it was determined as to the Jurisdiction of Bishops that ancient customs should be retain'd and that such eminent Bishops as of Alexandria and Antioch should have the same priviledges in their Precincts that the Bishop of Rome had in his By which decree they within their several limits were made as absolute as he and were not in the least subject to his power nor responsible to him for their proceedings And not to trouble you with many instances in the next age after this there was a great Council in Carthage where St. Austin himself was present in which it was expresly decreed that there should be no appeals to any foreign Bishop after matters had been determined amongst themselves This indeed gave offence to the Pope that then was who pretended that this power of receiving appeals was granted him by the Council of Nice To which the African Bishops answered they had never heard any such matter but would send purposely to Nice it self or some other neighboring Bishops to make enquiry they did so and found all to be meer fraud and forgery Such wicked arts did they of Rome use from the beginning for the justifying and promoting their proud Usurpations Something of a precedency we grant there was very anciently allow'd to the Bishop of Rome which had nothing in it of jurisdiction and power over the rest of his brethren but only was an honour granted him chiefly on account of Rome's being the Seat of the Emperour Hereupon he had many advantages above other Bishops and was capable of doing them good Offices at Court and on that account frequent application was made to him by such as needed his assistance and very often in point of meer prudence matters were brought to him from other Churches and referred to his arbitration Hither also many of the Eastern Bishops were forced to fly for refuge and succour when opprest by the Arrians By these and such like means especially by the Emperour's removal more and more into the East the Bishop of Rome strangely encreased in honour and power and at length in pride and insolence So that in succeeding times as a secular spirit of ambition and covetousness began to infect the greatest Churchmen there were most vehement contests betwixt the Bishops of Rome and of Constantinople for the preheminence For in one General Council it had been determined that because the Emperour had his residence at Constantinople the Bishop of that City should have the same priviledges which the Bishop of Rome had formerly enjoy'd for the same reason And one of the Bishops of Constantinople at length took upon him to stile himself Universal Bishop thereby say learned men claiming rather honour than any jurisdiction over his brethren Yet Gregory then Bishop of Rome was so incensed at it that he positively declared that whoever should assume such a proud title was a certain forerunner of Antichrist This was about six hundred years after our Saviour And not long after it Boniface the third Bishop of Rome by means of the wicked Phocas who had murdered his Master Mauricius and was chosen Emperour in his stead got his Church to be stiled the Supreme of all other Churches though with much ado as their own Historian expresses it But this Supremacy the body of the Greek Church utterly refused to acknowledg and so does to this day though they of Rome have several times used all manner of arts and tricks to draw them into a compliance still persisting in the same methods of fraud and violence for the confirming and securing their arrogant usurpations which at first they made use of to introduce them L. But they say it 's necessary to the unity of the Church that there should be one Supreme Head and Governour T. Very true and so I have told you there is namely the Lord Jesus Christ the only Head of the Catholick Church the Unity whereof consists in the subjection of the members to this same Head by their belief of the same Doctrine and obedience to the same holy Laws and by living in mutual love and charity and Christian communion one with another And herein most plainly doth the Apostle place the unity of the Christian Church Ephes. 4. that they have one Lord one Faith c. but not in their having one chief Ruler under Christ here on Earth whether Pope or Council only they are bound to live in obedience to their own Princes and Bishops in the respective Dominions and Churches where they reside L. They say that Christ alone is the invisible Head but the Pope is the visible Head of the Church T. This is a distinction we no where meet with in holy Scripture and therefore do justly reject it as the fond imagination of their own brain coin'd only to serve a turn But instead of detaining you with any further discourse on this subject I shall refer you to the Learned Dr. Barrow's excellent Treatise which handles it at large if you have leisure to peruse it wherein this pretence of the Popes Supremacy is so shamefully exposed and so fully confuted as cannot but give abundant satisfaction to any intelligent and impartial Reader And this is done with such strength of reason and such full proof from all antiquity that I am apt to think there will scarce be found any of the Champions for the Romish cause as bold men as they be so hardy and impudent as to attempt the returning any answer to that his most solid and impregnable Discourse L. Yet it 's wonder if they do not for they seem most zealous in contending for this above all other Doctrines T. And will you blame them since if this be disown'd the whole fabrick of Popery falls to the ground For if the Pope be not Head of the Church then all Princes in their own Dominions will be found to be Supreme Moderators and Governours in all causes and over all persons as well Ecclesiastical as Civil which is our meaning when we stile the King Head of our Church and then what reformation they with their Clergy have made according to the Holy Scriptures will appear justifiable Yea then these Princes may confer all manner of Church-preferments in their own Kingdoms without asking the Popes leave or expecting his confirmation and all Ecclesiastical causes may be determined without any appeals to Rome And if the King of England may do this in his Dominions as most certainly he may then
may the King of France do the same in his as if the Pope should provoke him probably he might and so may all others if they please By which means at length the Bishop of Rome would be confined to his own Diocess and his Spiritual power be shut up in much the same limits with his Temporal But alas what an utter ruin would this be to the Papal dignity and honour How would their treasures be drain'd their glory sullied and their power abated yea even reduced to nothing No wonder therefore if Bellarmine in the Preface to his Books of the Romish Bishop stiles this Doctrine of his Supremacy the very summ or chief point of Christianity Had he said of Popery it had been true enough For 't is plain they look upon this as one of the most weighty articles of their faith Let this be denied our conformity to their Church in all other things will signifie little or nothing As it appears in Henry the Eighths case for though he still retain'd the main Body of Popery yet because he rejected this power of the Pope he was reckoned and treated as an Heretick and Apostate Whereas let this be but own'd and you shall be dispensed with in many other things As our Historians tell us it was offered to Queen Elizabeth that we should have our Service in English Communion in both kinds c. provided she would submit to the Popes authority and own his Supremacy L. This is I perceive so useful an opinion that they have great reason to be zealous in asserting it but it doth so apparently serve their own ends that were it for nothing else I should mightily suspect the truth of it but by the very slender proof they bring either from Scripture or Reason I am sufficiently assured that it is notoriously false T. Good ground you have so to be yet pray consider what mighty stress they lay upon this idle opinion whilst they confine the Catholick Church to those who embrace it and Excommunicate all others as Hereticks and Schismaticks Yea such homage they pay to this their great Master that even in things of an indifferent nature they will rather yield obedience to his commands than to those of their own Prince And that 's plain from this instance amongst others that for a considerable time in Queen Elizabeths days the Papists came to our Churches but after the Pope had sent order to the contrary they generally desisted And I have heard some eminent Papists alledging the Popes Prohibition as the chief reason of their not taking the Oath of Allegiance So certainly true it is that a Papist acting according to the rules of his own Church can be no further a good Subject than the Pope will give him leave Nor has any Doctrine been more destructive of the rights of Princes and the duty of subjects than this of the Popes Supremacy In pursuance of this or for the promoting it has the peace of the world in these latter ages been greatly disturbed Kings and Kingdoms Excommunicated and endeavoured to be destroy'd Yea for the disowning of this according to their mercyless tenents must we poor Protestants be made utterly miserable both in this life and that to come Here we must be condemned to fire and faggot and hereafter to everlasting burnings even because we will not believe the Bishop of Rome to be Christs Vicar on Earth L. For the sake of this I am more apt to suspect the rest of their Popish Doctrines But though the Pope be not Christs Vicar yet is it not too severe to stile him Antichrist for so it seems many of our Writers do at which my Author is very angry and says it is a calumny and a lye and most intollerable stupidity to assert it T. Certainly not greater than to assert his Supremacy But pray what reason does he give for this his anger and his confidence L. He says that Antichrist shall be a Jew a particular man at the end of the world whereas the Popes be successively many of divers Nations and many ages ago T. Whilst he gives you only his bare word for all this there would need no more confutation than a bare denial Nor shall I give you or my self the trouble to search into the Revelation or any other obscure places of Scripture thence to prove the Pope to be Antichrist Only you may call to mind the saying of Pope Gregory even now quoted That he who should take on him the title of Universal Bishop is the forerunner of Antichrist And so far as Pope Gregory's Infallibility may be allow'd they may serve to prove his Successors to be an Antichristian generation of men But without going about positively to define what is meant by Antichrist in the New Testament that which I would chiefly recommend to your serious consideration in this matter is this That though the Bishops of Rome were at first very pious and good men and so generally continued for some ages yet as they grew in wealth they did by degrees strangely degenerate from the virtue and piety of their Predecessors till at length they with the Grandees of the Clergy who are the Governing part of the Popish faction have most apparently set up and pursued a design exactly contrary to that of our blessed Saviour which design of theirs may therefore well enough be stiled Antichristian and so may the abettors of it who have by the most vile and unchristian methods carried on the same To make this manifest in a few words consider that our blessed Saviour hath expresly told us that his Kingdom is not of this world does not consist in riches honours and worldly dignity but his whole business was to promote the glory of God and the salvation of mens souls by bringing us to the love and practice of piety and humility righteousness and mercy purity and sobriety and all true virtue and goodness But now on the contrary he who stiles himself Christs Vicar plainly enough declares that his Kingdom is of this world For what is it they seek after and so earnestly contend for but worldly greatness and power pomp and glory to make all men pay homage and obedience to them And under this pretence of being Vicar of Christ and Successor of St. Peter have the Popes for many ages exalted themselves above all that is called God I mean above all Civil power above Kings and Emperours who are indeed Gods Vicegerents on earth They have set their feet on the necks of Princes and kickt off their Crowns at their pleasure deposed and destroy'd Kings absolved their Subjects from the Allegiance due to them and disposed of their Kingdoms to others so far as they had power For their own secular interests they have often stir'd up Wars amongst Christian Princes yea themselves have maintain'd and prosecuted the same They have excited the people to Civil Wars and Seditions and sometimes even drawn the Son to rebel against his own Father They have set
upon it and by leaving most if not all of it out of many of their Books of devotion written in any vulgar Tongue I suppose lest the Consciences of the people should take check when they see practices so directly contrary to the Divine Precept For the great business of these their Guides seems to be not so much to lead them into Truth as to make them follow with ease where-ever they lead them L. 'T is a wonder why they should thus hazard themselves and the people whilst there appears no plausible pretence for it either from Reason or Scripture nor can I see any advantage they can hope for equal to the hazard they run T. Some pretences they have though very slender ones viz. That their Images make for the honour of Christ and the Saints for the instruction of common people and the raising of their affections Pictures being stiled Lay-mens Books But on the contrary the great God is hereby dishonoured and his Commands disobey'd and consequently our Blessed Saviour is displeased and the Saints themselves disgraced and affronted by such perverse ways of doing them honour And whilst the people have their senses perhaps gratified and their fancies pleased with the beholding and worshipping of rich and beautiful Images their minds this while are corrupted and debased true spiritual devotion is in a manner extinguished their Consciences are defiled and their Souls endangered by such Idolatrous practices L. How great is their crime then who draw them into these snares T. Great it is indeed beyond expression God grant they themselves may in time consider of it how they shall ever be able to answer it when the Blood of Souls shall be required at their hands by him who died to save them And besides the mischief done to those within the Church how many thousands by this practice of theirs are kept out of it For both Turks and Iews look upon those Christians as Idolaters who are guilty of this Image-worship and on that account are prejudiced against Christianity it self Thus do they harden these men in their infidelity whilst they defile themselves and those in their Communion with Idolatry L. Yet after all the Papists take it very hainously to be accused of Idolatry and some amongst our selves think this to be too heavy a charge T. Let them take it as they will and let others mince the matter as they please most certainly they are guilty of violating the Second Commandment and this violation of it by worshipping of Images hath as I have said been heretofore accounted and called Idolatry both by the Ancient Iews and by the Primitive Christians who utterly detested the same And if now a softer name must be devised for it let any man call it as he pleases still it must be looked upon as a gross impiety and a notorious breach of God's Holy Law which is enough to work an abhorrence of it in the minds of all good Christians But I 'le enlarge no further on this subject rather I shall refer you to the elaborate Discourses of that incomparable person Dr. Stillingfleet Dean of St. Pauls where you will find it handled to your full satisfaction Or in the mean time I would recommend to you the Homilies of our Church concerning the peril of Idolatry where you will find this Churches opinion of Image-worship viz. that it is downright Idolatry and there you may learn how far the Ancient Christians in the first and purest Ages of the Church were from this corrupt practice how it was ordained by an ancient Council that nothing painted on the Walls should be worshipped and how one of the Fathers in great displeasure tore a Veil in a Church in which he found a Picture fearing it might be an occasion of worshipping it and wrote earnestly to the Bishop of the place about it There also you have a large account of the rise of this practice in the more corrupt and declining times about Six or Seven hundred years after our Saviour and what opposition was then made to it by the better sort of Christians by what weak Arguments it was defended by what ill arts in some places established what bad effects it produced and how by degrees the people were sunk into all that gross Superstition and Idolatry which had overspread the Roman Church and particularly this Kingdom at the time of the Reformation This with much more to the same purpose you will there find discovered and will see what great reason there was for reforming the Church from this as well as many other corruptions and abuses wherewith we were over-run L. I shall gladly peruse these Homilies when I have opportunity being already very sensible that the worship of Images is a most dangerous and unlawful Custom a meer innovation in the Church and a plain breach of the Second Commandment and therefore well deserves to be branded with the infamous name of Idolatry from which God preserve me T. So it has been reckoned and commonly stiled by our Church and by those of our Divines who were most instrumental in the Reforming it and have been most eminent for the defence of it Good Reason you have therefore stedfastly to resolve against it But let us now proceed to what remains CHAP. XIII Of Praying by Beads L. THE next thing my Author attempts to vindicate is their praying by Beads which serve to number their Pater Nosters and Ave-Maries of which as I perceive by him Sixty three Ave-Maries and Seven Pater-nosters and one Creed make a Bead-roll T. Very like and this number as I take it they call our Ladies Crown and an Hundred and Fifty Ave Maries and Fifteen Pater-nosters makes a Rosary of which there is a kind of Order in their Church called the Confraternity of the Rosary Into this Society all manner of people may be admitted and these as I find in one of their Authors who gives an account of it are obliged to say over the whole Rosary once in a week at least And these Prayers are to be offered up in a certain manner to Almighty God in honour of the Blessed Virgin Now lest this should be two burdensome there is provision made that if they have any lawful impediment they may get another to say their Prayers for them and it shall be accepted They who enter into this Society must solemnly devote themselves to the Honour Love and Service of the Blessed Virgin Even as solemnly as a Man can consecrate himself to the Service of Almighty God our Heavenly Father do they give up themselves to her as the Mother of all Christians For so they say she is to be esteemed because our Saviour said of her to St. Iohn Behold thy Mother To each of these Votaries is given by the Father who admits him a set of Beads which are Blest and Crost and Sprinkled with Holy-Water And most wonderful Priviledges are bestowed by sundry Popes upon those who devoutly recite this Rosary They may gain a
tolerably well give answer thereto from what I have already heard from you Nor do I find here much that is new but many of the same things in other words drest up with much art and cunning T. I am glad you are so good a proficient and since you tell me this let us if you will for a while at least take a new method in our following discourse Give me your Book and for the trial of your skill I 'le propose thence the arguments which your Author makes use of and you shall return answers to the same L. I shall do my best but must crave your assistance when I am at a loss T. That you may be sure I shall readily give and if we meet with many the same things which we have had already we shall the quicklier dispatch them Only something I have to premise before I come to his arguments In the beginning of this his last Chapter he brings in his Scholar desiring to be furnish'd with some pregnant arguments for the reducing of Sectaries to the Catholick Church which he says they have groundlesly forsaken and cruelly persecuted Now what ground we whom he unjustly calls Sectaries had to forsake the Romish Church not the Catholick we have already shewn and shall do more but whilst he would insinuate that we Protestants have been grievous persecutors of Papists this I am sure is a very groundless charge and I wonder he had the impudence to fasten it upon us especially considering how infamous their own Church hath long been for the most cruel bloody persecution of poor Protestants meerly upon account of Religion and that in this Kingdom to go no further Whereas it 's very rare that any Papist hath suffered the loss of his life amongst us purely upon that account nor should I desire ever to see such severity used toward them or any other Sect if they will but live peaceably and not disturb the Government But most certain and undeniable it is that many of them have suffered for downright Treason and Rebellion as in the Gunpowder-Plot and at several other times And indeed our Laws make it Treason for any of the Kings subjects to go to the Church of Rome for Orders and then come over to draw away the people into communion with that Church this being look'd on as a seducing of them from their Allegiance to his Majesty which no wise Prince will suffer And with good reason is it so look'd on since few of these Priests will take the Oath of Allegiance and do reckon themselves exempt from the Civil power and both they and their deluded proselytes are taught to prefer the power of a foreign Potentate viz. the Bishop of Rome before that of their own Prince Some of them indeed say not all that this his power is only in Spirituals but whilst the Pope is judge in his own cause what either is spiritual or has a tendency to it may he not under this pretence extend his power as far as he pleases as you heard before But though in this and other instances the principles of Papists are extremely dangerous to the Civil Government yet I wonder whether Protestants may be permitted to live as quietly in Italy or Spain as thousands of Papists do here in England Nay at this day even in France it self what disturbances and persecutions do poor Protestants meet with and that chiefly as is said through the malicious instigations of fierce and furious Clergy men whilst yet we hear not that they can in the least charge them with any seditious or unpeaceable behaviour What impudence then is it for Papists to cast such dishonourable reflections upon our Government whether of Church or State as if we were guilty of I know not what rigorous proceedings against them Whereas it will be hard to find any where in Christendom more mildness than in the Church of England nor any where more cruelty and severity than in that of Rome whose bloody Inquisition has been long talked of throughout the world But to follow your Author yet before he brings forth his Arguments he tells us that Christ sends us to the Church quoting Matt. 18. 17. That if we neglect to hear the Church we must be counted for no better than Heathens and Publicans What this makes to his purpose I do not well understand For this seems plainly to be meant of that particular Church whereof we are Members in peaceable communion wherewith we ought to live rendring chearful obedience to all its lawful injunctions But what 's this to the Church of Rome which neither has any Authority over us in England and whose impositions are notoriously sinful He next quotes that of St. Paul 1 Tim. 3. 15. That the Church is the pillar and ground of truth Which is true both of the Catholick Church and of every particular Church that is a sound Member of it For hereby is declared that the truth of the Gospel that is the Christian Religion is carefully preserved openly profest and taught in the Christian Church The expression here made use of is commonly thought to allude to the fixing up of Writings upon a Pillar in some publick place that they may be seen and read of all like that in Iosh. 8. 32. But still I am to seek what this makes for his advantage If he only intend by these Quotations to prove that a Man ought to live in communion with the true Church of Christ and to behave himself peaceably and obediently in that particular Church of which he is a Member Who denies it Or what will he gain by it Since this tends nothing to prove it our duty to become Members of the Romish Church to believe all her Doctrines and obey her commands Well but this is that he will now demonstrate we are all bound to and that by five Arguments all of them as he fancies most strong and unanswerable which we shall particularly survey and examine the strength of them His first is That Church is to be heard in which there is most assurance that one is in the way to Salvation but in the Roman Church there is most assurance of this and therefore she is to be heard and obey'd What say you to this L. I deny that there is most assurance of our being in the way to Salvation in the Roman Church T. And well you may but thus he goes on to prove it Protestants grant that one living and dying in the Roman Church may be saved else they condemn all their Ancestors to the pit of Hell and therefore those of that Church have most assurance of their Salvation since it 's granted by all that they are in the way to it and thus he says it has been held by all the World time out of mind And to give full strength to his Argument we must add what he has in other places that Papists deny that a Protestant can be saved whilst Protestants grant that a Papist may and
of some dangerous Disease and seeking to an able Physician for advice which when he has received and is about to follow it in comes a bold Mountebank and tells the Man it 's utterly impossible he should ever recover by hearkning to his Physician but if he will be guided by him all shall be well for he has an infallible Cure at hand that will certainly do the work Now suppose the Physician be so modest that he will not answer this impudent Quack in his own language nor say it 's impossible for his Medicines to do any good only he deals honestly with his patient and tells him of the danger of trusting himself in such a Mans hands who takes very desperate courses and where he cures one kills Twenty but for himself he shall prescribe nothing but what he can demonstrate to be safe and good and which through God's blessing hath often been very effectual Now in point of prudence what ought the patient to do in this case What must he reject a skilful and safe Physician because he speaks with modesty and caution and chuse the daring ignorant Mountebank because he talks big and boldly and boasts of Infallible Receipts of a certain and speedy Cure L. No surely by no means T. Yet so he should do by this Authors Argument for the choice of their Church because forsooth she condemns all others and commends her self talking as much of Infallibility as the most cheating Mountebank is used to do and with much what the same reason and truth The Case is so like that I need not trouble you with applying it L. No you need not For I understand it well enough and as well do I discern the weakness of his Argument T. And yet for your fuller satisfaction if need be I would have you read that Sermon I formerly told you of on 1 Cor. 3. 13. by a Reverend Divine of the Church of England where you will find this piece of sophistry so shamefully bafled and exposed that he must be a very silly and shameless Priest that will ever offer to make use of it more Wherefore to all that hath been said on this subject I shall only suggest one thing more to your consideration viz. that so far as this Argument hath any force in it it may with great advantage be retorted on Papists themselves For if that way be safest to be chosen in which both parties are agreed then are we Protestants clearly on the safer side For they themselves own the Scriptures which we embrace they approve of the Creeds which we hold they cannot but allow of the Worship of God in the name of Jesus Christ with all other the substantials of our Religion which as I have often said is nothing else but Christianity it self But now we do utterly disown the additions which the Romish Church has made to the Ancient Creeds many of their traditions we also reject as being plainly repugnant to the Holy Scriptures we condemn their worship of Images of Angels and Saints as being neither commanded by God nor practised by the Church of Christ in the Primitive times Hence then you may be informed what is safest to chuse and follow whether the plain and pure Religion of Jesus Christ profest in our Church and acknowledged by all Christians in the World even by the Papists themselves or to swallow down all those new Articles which their Church has added to the Christian Faith and defile our selves with those superstitions with which they have corrupted the Worship of God Many of which Doctrines and Practices are disapproved by all Christians but those of their own Sect and which upon good grounds we believe to be so utterly unlawful and pernicious that they make the condition of those in the Romish Church very hazardous and for our selves should we embrace them we could have no hopes of Salvation Judge then upon the whole what is safest to be chosen L. I confess I see little or no difficulty in the Case wherefore pray proceed to the second Argument T. I shall repeat to you what he calls so though for my part I find nothing in it that may deserve the name of an Argument Thus it runs That Church is not to be heard whose Authors and chief Doctors are meer Cozeners and Impostors and such he says are all but those of the Roman Church and therefore are not to be heard L. I deny that the Authors and Doctors of our Church are Cozeners and Impostors T. Thus he goes about to prove it They all say that they will reform the Roman Church with the pure Word of God and yet they have never done it nor will ever be able and therefore they are all meer Cozeners and Impostors This is all the proof he gives L. This all seems to me just nothing for I reckon that the Author of our Religion was no other than our Blessed Saviour and the first Teachers of it were the holy Apostles and Evangelists who taught it by their Preaching and then committed it to Writing in the Holy Word of God which we most readily embrace and in which our Religion is wholly contained And surely these were no Cozeners or Impostors but rather they who have corrupted Religion by their own novel inventions contrary to this Holy Word T. This is very true that you say but here by the Authors of our Church he means those Learned men who were instrumental for the reforming it from those inventions which he pleads for as a part of Religion L. This I believe to be his meaning But since these good men by Gods assistance did actually reform our Church by the pure Word of God from those Popish corruptions wherewith it was before polluted I admire why he should say they were Cozeners and Impostors for not doing what they pretended they would when as they have really done it T. And admire you still may For I cannot guess at his reason except by the Roman Church he means that particular Church which is at Rome or else the whole Sect of Papists all who own the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome and so stile themselves the Romish Church Take it in either of these senses and I confess this Romish Church is not yet reformed But this rather shews their obstinacy than any thing of deceitfulness in those who have attempted their Reformation If the Prophets and pious people of old would have healed Babylon and she would not be healed was this any dishonour to the Prophets Neither surely were any of the first Reformers so vain as to say that they would certainly reform the whole Church of Rome though they might heartily desire it and in their several places diligently endeavour it And thanks be to God through his assistance and blessing these their endeavours have been most happily successful in many Nations of the World and particularly in this our Kingdom of England for the delivering of our Church from the Usurpation of the Pope and
bound in the execution of this their Office to do what belongs to it for the rectifying of mens errors and reforming them from all evil and corrupt practices whether in the worship of God or in their common conversation And thus did those holy and learned men both Bishops and others behave themselves who were the blessed instruments of reforming the Church of England from Popery For the carrying on of which good work God inclined the hearts of our Kings to employ their power for the assistance and encouragement of the Clergy who were engaged in it And herein they did no other than what Hezekiah Iosiah and other pious Kings amongst the Iews did in reforming the Iewish Church And as they needed no new commission from Heaven then for the reformation they wrought having the Law of God to be their rule and warrant no more did our Kings and Bishops whilst they had the Gospel to be theirs according to which they proceeded by degrees Thus in the first place King Henry the Eighth abolished the Popes Supremacy that great fundamental falshood of Popery whilst he retain'd in a manner all other points of it But with great courage and justice he delivered his Kingdom from that yoke of bondage under which the Nation had long groaned even from the Usurpation of the Roman Bishop declaring that he had no manner of power or jurisdiction in his Majesties Dominions but that the King himself next under God and his Christ is Head of this Church that is the Supreme Moderator and Governour over all persons and in all causes as well Ecclesiastical as Civil in these his Realms Wherefore the King with the advice and assistance of his Bishops and Clergy may as lawfully take care for the Reformation of the Church according to the Word of God within his own Dominions as the Kings of Israel or Iudah might do in theirs Yea he is obliged to do it and no foreign power Prince or Prelate hath any the least right to hinder and controul him herein not the Bishop of Rome any more than he of Ierusalem or Antioch And thus far the generality of the Popish Clergy both the Bishops and the Universities concurr'd with the King even such men as Bonner and Gardiner The Popes power being thus broken and abolished this made way for a more thorough Reformation of the Doctrin and worship from many soul errors and superstitions in the days of Edward the Sixth This was for a while interrupted in the reign of Queen Mary but was afterward restored and perfected by the authority of Queen Elizabeth of blessed memory soon after her entrance upon the Government And thus was the Reformation of our Church according to the rule of Gods holy Word most happily begun carried on and compleated in a peaceable orderly and deliberate manner by just and lawful authority even that of the whole Kingdom whether Ecclesiastical or Civil Of which you have an account at large in a late accurate and full History of our Reformation by a Learned hand an Abridgement whereof is done by the same Author in a little room if the History it self be too large for you Our first Reformers then were no Impostors or false Prophets but were indeed sent of God though in an ordinary way being rightly Ordained to the Ministry and duly qualified for that Sacred Office they were guided and directed by the plain Word of God own'd and succeeded by his Providence allow'd and encouraged by his Vicegerents our Kings and Queens and the Reformation at length peaceably and firmly established by the Laws of the Land L. This doubt I think is clearly enough resolved and to me very satisfactorily Pray what 's the next T. He asks whether it can be made good what Luther and Calvin with all Protestants and Presbyterians have so long boasted they could do viz. Reform convincingly any one of the silliest Roman Catholicks that is and to begin let them do it in the matter of the Real Presence L. I do not well understand what he means by this For I think there is no question to be made of it but Luther and Calvin though they were not the Reformers of our Church with other learned Protestants have convincingly reformed many that were Roman Catholicks and in the matter of the Real Presence as well as other points these Converts have been convinced of their error and brought to a sounder judgment agreeable to Scripture and reason T. I think indeed there is more difficulty in finding out the meaning of this question than in answering it though somewhat like it he had before He cannot surely mean that no people who once profest themselves Roman Catholicks as his phrase is have ever been convinced of the errors of the Roman Church so as to forsake the same for thus it hath been with some whole Nations and particularly our own For we grant that in these latter ages our people were generally infected with those errors though from the beginning it was not so And as to Luther and Calvin though they did great service for the Reforming of the Church in their own Countries yet neither they nor any Presbyterians were the chief instruments of that work among us but holy Bishops and many sound and orthodox Preachers ordain'd by them who taught the truth as it is in Jesus and sealed with their blood the truth of what they taught These men by their zealous Preaching their holy living and chearful dying after the example of the Apostles and other Martyrs in the Primitive times did by Gods blessing win over thousands to embrace the Doctrine of the Gospel in its native purity rejecting those Popish errors in which before they had been blindly train'd up Wherefore he might as well say that the Apostles never converted any from Heathenism to Christianity as that our Ministers have never reformed any from Popery What then can he mean I can scarce guess what except that they cannot reform a Papist whilst he still remains one which is as if we should say that the Apostles never converted any heathens because whilst they remain'd heathens they were not converted But I am not willing to think him so weak and silly and therefore till he speaks plainer shall trouble my self no more with this but proceed to his next question which runs thus Can you prove to me clearly out of the written word which you teach ought only to be follow'd as the guide to Heaven that the Sabbath-day is commanded by God to be kept on Sunday and that little children are to be baptized L. Part of this was mention'd before viz. that about keeping the Sabbath for which you shew'd there is enough from Scripture to warrant our practice besides the constant custom of the whole Christian Church ever since the Primitive times and I suppose the same may be said for the Baptism of Infants T. I judge it may and that upon very good grounds For we know that Children were admitted members of