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A51741 A reformed catechism. The first dialogue in two dialogues concerning the English Reformation / collected for the most part, word for word out of Dr. Burnet, John Fox, and other Protestant historians ; published for the information of the people in reply to Mas William Kings answer to D. Manby's considerations &c. ; by Peter Manby. Manby, Peter, d. 1697. 1687 (1687) Wing M388; ESTC R30509 77,561 110

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if we should grant them their Desires But they are the Legacies of those Testators who have given them to the Church for ever under the Penalty of a heavy Curse imposed on all those who shall any way go about to altenate their Property from the Church And besides if we grant the smaller Abbies to the King what should we do otherwise than shew him the way how in time it may be lawful for him to demand the greater Wherefore the manner of these Proceedings puts me in mind of a Fable how the Ax that wanted a Handle came upon a time to the Wood making his moan to the great Trees how he wanted a Handle to work withal and for that cause he was constrained to sit idle Wherefore he made it his request unto them that they would grant him one of their smaller Saplings to make him a Handle They mistrusting no guile granted him one of the smaller Trees so becoming a compleat Ax he so fell to work within the same Wood that in process of time there was neither great nor small Tree to be found there And so my Lords if you grant the King these smaller Monasteries you do but make him a Handle whereby at his own Pleasure he may cut down all the Cedars within your Libanus And then you may thank your selves after ye have incurred the heavy Displeasure of Almighty God. His Speech concerning many severe Objections against the whole Clergy anno 1529. My Lords HEre are certain Bills exhibited against the Clergy and Complaints against the Viciousness Idleness Rapacity and Cruelty of Bishops Abbots Priests and their Officials but my Lords are all vicious all idle all ravenous and cruel Priests or Bishops Are there not Laws already provided against such is there any abuse that cannot be rectified or can there be such a Reformation that there shall be no Abuses are there not Clergymen to rectifie the Abuses of the Clergy or shall men find fault with other mens manners whilst they forget their own or punish where they have no Athority to correct If we be not executive in our Laws let each man suffer for his Delinquency Or if we have not Power aid us with your Assistunce and we shall give you thanks But my Lords I hear there is a Motion made that the smaller Monasteries should be taken into the Kings hands which makes me apprehend it is not so much the good as the Goods of the Church that are aim'd at Truly my Lords how this may sound in your ears I cannot tell but to me it appears no otherwise than as if our Mother the Church were now to be brought into Servility and by little and little to be banished out of those dwelling places which the Piety Liberality of our Ancestors have conferred upon her Otherwise to what end are those portentous and curious Petitions of the Commons To no other intent and purpose than to bring the Clergy into contempt with the Laiety that they may seize their Patrimony But my Lords beware of Your Selves and of Your Countrey Beware of Your Mother the Catholick Church The People are addicted unto Novelties And Lutheranism spreads it self amongst us Remember Germany and Bohemia what Miseries are befallen them already and let our Neighbours Houses that are now on Fire teach us to beware of our own Disasters My Lords I will tell you plainly what I think that except ye resist manfully by your Authorities this violent Stream of Mischiefs offered by the Commons you shall see all respect first withdrawn from the Clergy and secondly from Your * * This Prophecy was fulfilled anno 1649. when the House of Lords was voted useless and dangerous by the Commons Selves But if you search into the true causes of all these Mischiefs that Reign amongst them you shall find that they all arise through want of Faith. His Speech to the Lords concerning the Kings Supremacy My Lords IT is true we are all under the King's Lash and stand in need of the King 's good Favour and Clemency Yet this argues not that we must therefore do that which will render us both ridiculous and contemptible to all the Christian World and hissed out from the Society of Gods Holy Catholick Church What good will it do us to keep the Possession of our Houses Cloysters and Convents and to lose the Society of the Christian World To preserve our Goods and lose our Consciences Therefore My Lords I pray let us consider what we are doing and what it is we are to Grant with the Dangers and Inconveniences that will ensue thereupon Or whether it lyes in Our power to grant what the King requires at our hands Whether the King be an apt person to receive this Power that so we may go groundedly to work and not like Men that had lost all Honesty and Wit together with their Worldly Fortune As concerning the first point viz. What the Supremacy of the Church is which we are to give unto the King. It is to exercise the Spiritual Goverment of the Church in Chief which according to all that ever I have learned both in the Gospel and through the whole course of Divinity mainly consists in these two points First In Binding and Absolving Sinners according to that which our Saviour said unto Saint Peter when he ordained him Head of his Church viz. To thee will I give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Now My Lords can we say unto the King Tibi to thee will we give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven If ye say I where is your Warrant If you say No then you have answered your Selves that you cannot put such Keys into his hands Secondly The Supream Government of the Church consists in feeding Christ's Sheep and Lambs according to that when our Saviour performed his promise to Saint Peter of making him universal Shepherd by such unlimited Jurisdiction feed my Lambs and not only so but feed those that are the feeders of those Lambs feed my Sheep Now my Lords can any of us say unto the King pasce Oves God hath given unto his Church some to be Apostles some Evangelists some Pastors some Doctors for the Edifying of the Body of Christ So that you must make the King one of these before you can make him Head of the Church He must be such a Head as may edifie the Members of Christ's Body and it is not the sew Ministers of an Island that must constitute a Head over the Universe or at least by such example we must allow as many Heads over the Vniverse as there are Sovereign Powers within Christ's Dominion Every Member must have a Head. Attendite vobis was not said to King's but Bishops 2. Let us consider the Inconveniencies that will arise upon this Grant We cannot grant this unto the King but we must renounce our Unity with the See of Rome And if there were no further matter in it then a renouncing of Clement VII now Pope
acknowledge that there was a signal Providence of God in raising up a King of his Temper for clearing the way to that blessed Work that followed and that could hardly have been done but by a man of his Humour So that I may very fit'y apply to him the witty simile of a Writer who compares Luther to a Postilion in his waxed Boots and oiled Coat lashing his Horses through thick and thin and bespattering all about him This Character befits King Henry better saving the Reverence due to his Crown who as the Postilion of Reformation made way for it through a great deal of mire and filth Pref. pag. 6. A. What more B. Whatever Reproaches those of the Church of Rome cast on the Reformation upon the account of this Kings Faults may may be easily turned back on their own Popes Pref. pag. 8. Gregory 7. Boniface 8. Julius 2. Leo 10. Clement 7. Paul 3. and if the Lives of those Popes who have made the greatest advances in their Jurisdiction be examined particularly Gregory 7. Boniface 8. Vices more eminent than any can be charged on Henry 8. will be found in them ibid. p. 8. A. So that all he has to answer for Henry 8. amounts to this that others were as bad as he this is a sort of Apology which we call Recrimination Does that excuse any mans Crimes B. No the blemishing them viz. the Popes will not I confess excuse our Reformers therefore other things are to be considered for their Vindication saith the Doctor pag. 10. Pref. to his first vol. A. What are those other things B. Why may not saith he an ill King do so good a work as to set a Reformation forward Gods ways are a great deep who has often shewed his Power and Wisdom in raising up unpromising instruments to do great Services in the world not always employing the best men in them Jehu did an acceptable Service to God in destroying the Idolatry of Baal though neither the way of doing it is to be imitated being grossly insincere nor was the Reformation compleat since the Worship of the two Calves was still kept up And it is very like his chief design in it was to destroy all the party that favoured Ahabs Family yet the thing was good and was rewarded by God. So whatever this Kings other Faults were and how defective soever the Change he made was and upon what ill motives soever it may seem to have proceeded yet the things themselves being good we ought not to think the worse of them because of the Instrument or manner by which they were wrought Pref. pag. 9. Thus the Doctor thinks he has sufficiently justified the English Reformation against the Objections that may arise from the Impieties or Vices of Henry 8. NOTE Let the Reader observe here how the Doctor takes that for granted which is the matter in question namely that the English Reformation was a good work and that God raised up Henry 8. to set it forward Nay the Doctor knows it is utterly deny'd by the most considerable part of Christendom both Greeks and Latins that God raised him up otherwise than he is said to have hardned Pharaoh's heart when he only gave him up to the Lusts and Cruelties of his own Heart If the Doctors meaning be that Henry 8. was raised up by an impulse or inspiration of Gods Spirit to reform the Church let him make that appear by some other Evidence than this further Character and we will believe him A. What is that further Character B. It will surprise some saith the Doctor concerning his first Volumn to see a Book of this bigness written of the History of our Reformation under the Reign of Henry VIII since the true beginnings of it viz. Reformation are to be reckoned from the Reign of Edward 6. mark the Antiquity of the Protestant Church in which the Articles of our Church and the Forms of our Worship were first compiled and set forth by Authority by what Authority shall appear anon and indeed in King Henrys time the Reformation was rather conceived than brought forth and two Parties were in the last eighteen years of his Reign struggling in the Womb having now and then advantages on either side as the inconstant humour of that King changed and as his Interests and often as his Passions swayed him For being boisterous and impatient naturally which was much heightned by his most extravagant Vanity and high Conceit of his own Learning strange Evidence of a Divine Mission he was one of the most uncounsellable Persons in the World. Pref. pag 5 and 6. A. What was King Henry's Religion to his dying day B. Indeed in the whole Progress of those Changes saith our Historian the King's design seemed to have been to terrifie the Court of Rome and cudgel the Pope into a complyance with what he desired For in his Heart he continued addicted to some of the most extravagant opinions of that Church such as Transubstantiation and the other Corruptions of the Mass so that he was to his Lives end more Papist than Protestant page 7. Preface to 1 Vol. NOTE Reader King Henry went to Mass to his dying day So did all these three Kingdoms to the first or second year of Edward VI. Here is yet no Evidence of God's having raised him up by any Impulse or Inspiration of his Holy Spirit to Reform the Church if that were the Doctors meaning only that God permitted him as he does other Sinners to Act those things for which they shall one day pay dearly That some Popes have been no Saints I shall not dispute it with the Doctor But let him shew if he can that any of the first Reformers Henry VIII Ann Bolen Cranmer Cromwell Somerset Northumberland Ridly c. were sent or raised up by God to reform the Faith or Manners of the Church and there is an end of the Controversie The Doctor instances in David Solomon Jchu who all had their failings but how does that recommend or excuse our Reformers who without any Comission or Inspiration from God presumed to reform that is to say subvert the Church wherein they were Baptized and set up another after their own Fancies who said let us take to our selves the Houses of God in Possession Psal 83.12 Never any Pope had the Wickedness to do such things And therefore to affirm that God raised up such Persons to Plunder the Church under pretence of Reforming it what is it better or worse then to make God the Author of their Sacriledge and Hypocrisy A. But what say you to the Doctors words Pref. page 7. that every National Church is a compleat Body within it self so that the Church of England with the Authority and Concurrence of their Head and King may examine and reform all Errors whether in Doctrine or Worship c. If this be true what needs any special Commission or Inspiration from God to Reform the Church Why may not every National Church do
great Dignities and high Tru●…s yet he had now by a great number of Witnesses persons of Honour found him to be the most corrupt Traitor and Deceiver of the King and the Crown that had ever been known in his whole Reign That he had received several Bribes and for them granted Licenses to carry Mony Corn Horses and other things out of the Kingdom contrary to the King's Proclamations that he being also an Heretick had dispersed many Erroneous Books among the King's Subjects particularly some that were contrary to the belief of the Sacrament and when some had informed him of this and had shewed him these Heresies in Books printed in England he said they were good and that he found no fault in them and said it was as lawful for every Christian Man to be a Minister of the Sacrament as a Priest And whereas the King had constituted him Vice Gerent for the spiritual affairs of the Church he had under the Seal of that Office Licensed many that were suspected of Heresie to Preach over the Kingdom And had both by Word and Writing suggested to several Sheriffs that it was the King's pleasure they should discharge many Prisoners of whom some were indicted others apprehended for Heresie And when many particular Complaints were brought to him of detestable Heresies with the names of the Offenders he not onely defended the Hereticks but severely checkt the Informers And vexed some of them by Imprisonment and otherways And he having entertained many of the King's Subjects about himself whom he had infected with Heresie and imagining he was by force able to defend his Treasons and Heresies on the last of March in the 30th year of the King's Reign in the Parish of St. Peters in London when some of them complained to him of the new Preachers such as Barnes and others he said their Preaching was good and said also among other things that if the King would turn from it yet he would not turn And if the King did turn and all his People with him he would fight in the field in his own Person with his Sword in his Hand against him and all others And then he pulled out his Dagger and held it up and said or else this Dagger thrust Me to the Heart if I would not dye in that quarrel against them all And I trust if I live one year or two it shall not be in the King's power to resist or let it if he would And Swearing a great Oath said I would do so Indeed He had also by Oppression and Bribery made a great Estate to himself and extorted much Money from the King's Subjects and being greatly enriched had treated the Nobility with much Contempt For all which Treasons and Heresies he was attainted to suffer the pains of Death as should please the King and to forfeit all his Estate and Goods to the King's use These are the Words of the Act. Burnet page 278. 279. A. How does the Doctor excuse him B. Most of these things relate to Orders and Directions he had given for which it is very probable he had the King's Warrant And for the matter of Heresie it has appeared how far the King had proceeded towards a Reformation so that what he did that way was most likely done by the King's Orders But the King now falling from these things it was thought they intended to stifle him by such an Attainder that he might not discover the secret Orders or Directions given him for his own justification page 279. NOTE It is very probable it was most likely it was thought is all the Defence which the Doctor makes for him Who having seen all his Papers found it seems none of those Orders or Directions How far the King had proceeded towards a Reformation was then apparent by the Statute of Six Articles made purposely against the insolence of the new Preachers anno 1539. And the King's aversion to Heresie no Man understood better than Cromwell For in his Heart he continued as is confessed by the Doctor addicted to some of the most extravagant Opinions of the Roman Church as Transubstantiation c. so that he was to his Lives end more Papist than Protestant so the Doctor is pleased to express himself Pref. to 1 Vol. A. What Religion did Cromwell dye of B. When he was brought to the Scaffold he acknowledged his Sins against God and his Offences against his Prince who had raised him from a base degree he declared that he dyed in the Catholick Faith not doubting of any Article of Faith or of any Sacrament of the Church he denyed that he had been a Supporter of those who delivered ill Opinions He confessed he had been seduced mark this but now dyed in the Catholick Faith. Burnet page 284. By what he spoke at his Death he lest it much doubted of what Religion he dyed But it is certain he was a Lutheran says Burnet page 285. The term Catholick Faith used by him in his last Speech seemed to make it doubtful but that was then used in England in its true Sence in opposition to the Novelties of the See of Rome page 285. ibid. So that his Profession of the Catholick Faith was strangely perverted says Burnet when some from thence concluded that he dyed in the Communion of the Church of Rome ibid. NOTE He dyed a Lutheran equivocating with the words Catholique Faith he knew Lutheranism was not allowed for Catholique Faith in England King Henry and his Bishops being more Papists than Lutherans He promoted the Reformation vigorously saith the Doctor so that if the truth were known he dyed of Ann Bolens Church and that was a Church yet unborn for in King Henrys time as Burnet observes the English Reformation was rather conceived than brought forth Verily the Reformation seems to me a Riddle from first to last If Cromwell was a Lutheran he was at the same time both Vicar General and Heretique to King Henrys Church as you may find in the Act of Attainder compared with the Statute of Six Articles A. Did he at his Death express any Remorse for destroying the Religious Houses and alienating the Estates of the Church B. Not a word of that I verily believe he thought he did God good Service and perhaps had done himself some Service out of those Estates A What reason have you for that B. It is not unlike says the Doctor that some Presents to the Commissioners or to Cromwell made those Houses outlive this ruin he means some few Houses which K Henry had restor'd to the Monks for I find great trading in Bribes at this time which is not to be wondred at when there was so much to be shared p 224. 1. vol. And the Act of Attainder says that he had by Oppression and Bribery made a great Estate to himself and extorted much Mony from the Kings Subjects and being greatly enriched had treated the Nobility with much Contempt But the Doctor excuses him pag. 279. For
finding that nothing went so near the King's Heart Edward VI as the ruin of Religion which he apprehended would follow upon his Death when his Sister Mary should come to the Crown upon that he and his party took advantage to propose to him to settle the Crown by his Letters Patents on the Lady Jane Grey then newly married to Guilford Dudley Northumberlands fourth Son how they prevailed with him to pass by his Sister Elisabeth who had been always much in his Favour I do not so well understand But the King being wrought over to this on the 11th of June Mountague Chief Justice of the Common-Pleas Baker and Bromly two Judges with the King's Attorney and Solicitor were commanded to come to Council There they found the King with some Privy-Councellors about him The King told them he did now apprehend the danger the Kingdom might be in by the Succession of his Sister Mary So he ordered some Articles to be read to them of the way in which he would have the Crown to descend They objected that an Act of Parliament could not be taken away by any such Device yet the King required them to take the Articles and draw a Book according to them They asked a little time to consider of it So having examined the Statute of the first year of his Reign they found that it was Treason not only after the King's Death but in his life time to change the Succession Secretary Petre in the mean time pressed them to make haste When they came again to the Council they declared they could not do any such thing for it was Treason And all the Lords should be Guilty of Treason if they went on in it Upon which the Duke of Northumberland who was not then in the Council Chamber being advertised of this came in great Fury calling Mountague a Traitor But the Judges stood to their Opinion They were again sent for and came on the 15th of June The King was present and somewhat sharply asked them why they had not prepared the Book as he had ordered them They answered that whatever they did would be of no force without a Parliament But the King said he would have it first done and then ratified in Parliament and therefore required them on their Allegiance to go about it and some Councellors told them if they refused to Obey that they were Traytors This put them in a great Consternation and Old Mountague thinking it could not be Treason whatever they did in this matter while the King lived and at worst that a Pardon under the great Seal would secure him consented to set about it if he might have a Commission requiring him to do it and a Pardon when it was done both these being granted him he was satisfyed The other Judges being asked if they would concur did all agree being overcome with fear except Hales But Cranmer still refused to do it after they had all signed it and said he would never consent to the Disinheriting of the Daughters of his late Master Many Consultations were had to perswade him to it but he could not be prevailed on till the King himself set on him who used many Arguments from the danger Religion would otherwise be in together with other Perswasions so that by his Reasons or rather Importunities at last he brought him to it NOTE The Doctors excuse for this unjust Act of Cranmers importunity the same that naughty Women are said to pretend for their Incontinency If he did this only as submitting to his Princes importunity how came he after King Edward 's Death to Subscribe the aforesaid Letter And to do both after he had said he he would never consent to the disinheriting of King Henry 's Children The Reader may now understand the reason why he answered little or nothing to the Treason objected to him by the Bishop of Glocester because there was too much Truth in it And methinks this excuse which Burnet makes for him does him no service namely that he stood off a good while but at last with much a do was perswaded into this Conspiracy against K. Henry 's Children How does this answer the Character which Fox gives of him in causes pertaining to God and his Prince no Man more stout no Man more constant then he But whether he was in reality so unwilling to this Action is a question which the indifferent Reader may easily resolve Since he could not but apprehend that Queen Mary would call him to an account for the troubles he had brought upon her Mother and indeed upon the whole Church and Kingdom of England For amongst all the English Bishops anno 1533. King Henry could not find such another Person as Burnet confesses to serve him in the See of Canterbury Now as for Mountague Chief Justice of the Common Plea's and the rest of the Judges who at last consented to the advancement of Lady Jane Grey you may observe them scrupling the matter not out of Conscience but apprehension of the Law. All that they desired was to be indemnified from the danger of Law. A. Now go on to relate how he acquitted himself of the other particulars laid to his Charge Heresie Perjury Incontinency B. Although he answered nothing to the Bishop of Glocester concerning the point of Treason yet I remember somewhat in Fox which he reply'd to Doctor Martyn the Queen's Proctor viz. I protest before God I was no Traytor but indeed I confessed more at my Arraignment than was true Martyn returns that is not to be reasoned at this present you know you were condemned for a Traytor Fox page 653. 3 Vol. A. Is there no more in Fox as to that point B. Not a word more that I can find A. Then proceed as to the particular of Heresie B. John Foxes words are these As for the matter of Heresie and Schism wherewith he was charged he protested and called God to witness that he knew none that he maintained But if that were an Heresie to deny the Popes Authority and the Religion which the See of Rome hath published to the World these later years then the Apostles and Christ himself taught Heresie and he desired all then present to bear him witness that he took the Traditions and Religion of that usurping Prelate to be most false erroneous and against the Doctrine of the whole Scripture That he is the very Antichrist so often preached of by the Apostles and Prophets For it was most evident that he had advanced himself above all Emperors and Kings of the World whom he affirmeth to hold their Estates and Empires of him as their Chief and to be deposed at his good Will and Pleasure That he hath brought in Gods of his own Framing and invented a new Religion full of Gain and Lucre. This Enemy of God and of our Redemption is so evidently painted out in the Scriptures by such manifest Signs and Tokens that except a man will shut up his Eyes and Heart against the