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A01042 Eubulus, or A dialogue, where-in a rugged Romish rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholicke questions, to the Protestaut [sic]) is confuted, and the questions there-of answered. By P.A. Forbes, Patrick, 1564-1635. 1627 (1627) STC 11147; ESTC S102413 101,942 162

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we are still vnited and will be yet more more nearlie our Concord in GOD and His Trueth growing as your Vnitie in Evill shall be broken off the will of GOD being fulfilled in all the worke of Antichrist's deceit justlie vpon the Worlde for contempt of His Trueth And thus Philomathes your Assumption where-by you denye vs anie such Vnitie as of necessitie is requyred in the Church of CHRIST for keeping justlie that Account is false And no lesse false is it al-so in that what you would robbe vs of you doe appropriate to Rome which can not bee truelie praysed for anie Vnitie except that which before I mentioned out of the seaventeenth Chapter of the REVELATION which is the onlie Vnitie proper vnto her and accordinglie there fore-tolde of her For other-wayes shee hath fallen away foulie both from the Head and the Foundation and can never bee sayde to haue keeped Vnitie with the true Bodie other-wayes than the accressing Sore or Apostume in the Bodie but not of it may bee sayde to bee one with the Bodie And your Man bewrayeth verie well howe poorelie provyded hee is of anie sure probation of his Vnitie when for all Argument where-by to evince an Vnion in one LORD one Fayth one Hope one Baptisme and one true and sanctifying Spirit hee is not ashamed impudentlie to take that which is the verie mayne poynt in question Whither I pray you did his Poëticke Furie transport him when without blushing to sustayne his Assumption on which all the lyfe of his Cause depended hee brought this onlie and goodlie Argument That Church onlie keepeth Vnitie in all poynts which cleaveth to the Pope But the Church of Rome onelie cleaveth to the Pope There-fore the Church of Rome onlie keepeth Vnitie in all poynts The Proposition of this his Demonstration he prooveth by this That the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heavē were given to Peter But the Pope is Peter's Successour Ergo doe you requyre mee Philomathes to make anie aunswere to these your Man his Raveries Or if hee had beene set of verie purpose to play the Praevaricator in the Cause which hee pleadeth could hee more ridiculouslie I will not say haue reasoned but raved Wee neyther deny nor envy your Church her Vnitie with the Pope al-be-it in christian Compassion wee pittie it But wee deny your Mischiefe to haue anie Vnion eyther with the Head Foundation or Bodie except as a Sore in it but not of it And to cleare yet farder the falsehood of your Man's mayne Assumption of Vnitie That the Church of Rome keepeth Vnitie in all poynts and how vayne hee is in vaunting there-of if your Poet had as carefullie picked out the Partialities of his Romish Church even in this their damnable and cursed conspiracie as hee hath with a perverse mynde and poysonable Eye pryed in our Distractions What great matter of Insulting hath hee or anie of his profession against our Churches for any Division betwixt vs and these whom they doe call LVTHERIANS If he were as powerfull a Peace-maker as he prooveth an impertinent Pratler he might haue found at Home to worke vpon not only great Dissentions but even as bitter and materiall Digladiations as anie is amongst vs. When al our Controversie amongst our selues about the manner of Presence and participation of CHRIST in the sacred Supper is duelie weighed what shall bee found there-in comparable to the manyfolde Debates amongst your Schoolemen about the manner of their prodigious TRANSSVBSTANTIATION whence as from an horrible Hydra so manie monstruouslie diverse Heads haue sprung vp in their Schooles as never will bee reconciled till Fyre from Heaven burne vp all that intoxicated Bodie When your Poët shall put at one the Scotists and Thomists the Franciscanes and Domicians the Schoole-men and the Canonists their other Clergie and the Iesuists when Blacke-well and Bellarmine shall accord vpon that mayne Poynt of the Pope's Supremacie which to belieue and that both In temporalibus spiritualibus is de necessitate salutis that is Necessarie to Salvation sayeth the one partie then might hee with the more credite praesume to taxe our Distractions Loripedem rectus derideat Aethiopem albus Now then your Man's Proposition of his mayne Syllogisme of VNITIE beeing sophisticall and his Assumption clearlie false he will hardlie I trow vpon such Antecedents conclude well that the Church of Rome is the onlie true Church of CHRIST Philadelphus You haue admitted the Church of Rome an VNITIE but such as where-in they haue neyther anie matter of Glorying and are but even scarse well vnited in that same sacrilegious Societie Who are vnited onlie but in Evill And scarselie well are in that same compacted Lesse may they glorie than their Guyde the Devill Whose Kingdome is not in it selfe distracted Killers and Rogues are in a Course contracted That Concord onlie comes to bee commended When vncorrupt Companions vncoacted For Trueth and truelie are to-gether bended In Unitie which is not thus defyned Fiends Robbers Killers may bee close combyned Philomathes As Eubulus in doing his best to take from our Poët the prayse of a deepe Divine so I perceiue Philadelphus that you mynde not to permit him the Monopolie of the MVSES But now it resteth to speake of the Note of HOLINESSE and I much muze Eubulus if as of all the former so you will affirme of this al-so That it is no proper Marke For I am sure that to nothing vnder Heaven doeth the propertie of HOLINESSE conveane but to the Church of CHRIST onlie And agayne according to the Law you alleadged of Propers that what-so-ever Men are holie they must bee of the Church of CHRIST for Holinesse becommeth His House Philadelphus The Prophet ELISHA beeing consulted by great Personages and vpon great Poynts called for a Minstrell And mine Advyse were Eubulus before you aunswere to this Marke of HOLINESSE that even for refreshing of our Spirites a little 〈◊〉 heare their Man's Melodie vpon that poynt Eriphilus As your Myndes are mistuned you may perhaps finde your selues nor greatlie cheared there-with For how-so-ever Eubulus lyke a slipperie Eele by subtilties of Distinctions hath slidden thorow all our preceeding Marks yet as Philomathes hath rightlie sayde I hope HOLYNESSE is such a sure one as you can not deny except you would once and in this one Poynt prooue true Men even to professe your selues a prophane Companie Eubulus What-so-ever a propertie wee shall finde HOLINESSE to bee yet Eriphilus I take bitter Passion to bee no proper Poynt of it And therefore what-so-ever your Man's Musicke might worke in vs yet shall it not incontinentlie come praesentlie in place for mitigating of your owne Cholericke Motions by some greater Sympathie which perhaps it shall finde in you than it can waken vp in our as you call them mistuned Myndes Therefore Philomathes bring out your Cure quicklie for succouring of your Companion Philomathes In-deede the consideration of HOLINESSE would requyre a calme Constitution And these are our Man's Verses there-of
this Argument as I vprightlie protest in the Presence of HIM Whome I serue in the GOSPELL of HIS Sonne That laying aside the verie selfe cleare and infallible Groundes of Trueth delivered in Scripture where-vpon agaynst all eyther Probabilities or Praesumptions our Fayth may and must solidlie relye there is no Reason in the Worlde so effectuall to assure my Soule of the Veritie of our Religion and that wee are of CHRIST His true Church as are the verie chiefe thinges which our Adversaries doe object agaynst vs. Neyther anie so pregnant a Motiue to perswade mee laying aside the consideration of their playne haereticall Opinions that they are the Antichristian Bodie as even those things where-in they doe chiefelie and most insolentlie glorie Which to cleare vnto you at such length and in such evidence as I well could and the Matter al-so requyreth it were a longer Speach than this short Occasion of Conference affordeth vs. But if you list to take paynes you may reade what I haue at more length written heereof in my DISPVTATIONS FOR OVR CALLINGES and in my COMMENTARIE on the REVELATION VVhich with the little that I haue nowe sayde when you haue more deeplie considered then if you remayne yet vnsatisfyed how-so-ever I neyther loue to contende vvith the Humourous nor to multiplye Babling vpon Blockes yet I vvill at your Desyre not sticke to take more paynes vpon your Ingenuitie Philomathes I will GOD willing reade those Bookes where-vnto you haue sharpened mine Appetite by that which you haue nowe spoken having there-by so filled mine Heart with great Doubts of such things as I accounted inexpugnable poynts that I can not choose but to insist till I bee setled as it shall please GOD to informe me in that which is the right Way of His Feare Philadelphus How invisible so-ever wee bee Eriphilus and how short so-ever you bee of sight yet I hope you may now perceiue your owne foyle in the chiefe Flowre of your Forces so as Eubulus hath not as you presumed evanished in Invisibilitie but hath made all your long and vaynlie vaunted of Visibilitie to vanish in a vayne Smoake What 's visible but there-to Visibilitie In common doth though not a-lyke conveane Why should the Bryde without all Probabilitie Visible hers then singularlie wiene Thinges visible attour are not aye seene And thinges ev'n seene yet will escape Perception Of lightned Men and what perceived beene Mules agaynst that will madlie make Exception The Church was aye seene visible perceived Of cleare but no of rakie Eyes that raved Philomathes Whether wee haue anie such Foyle as you alleadge or you such Victorie as you presume Philadelphus you are al-wayes readie to sing your owne Triumph But now al-be-it wee haue indeede al-readie passed thorow these Markes where-in wee esteeme our selues strongest and that Eubulus hath I must confesse answered more than I exspected yet I pray you let vs heare what he hath to say agaynst the rest The next Marke is VNITIE and thus our Poet speaketh of it CHAPTER VI. UNITIE THis is another Marke truelie The Church must haue VNITIE As our Saviour hath fore-tolde One Shepheard and one Sheep-folde One is my Spouse one is my Loue One is my Darling and my Doue This is His House and at some-tyme Hee doth resemble it to a Vine HIS Father is the Husband-man A Branch is everie Christian. This is HIS Bodie mysticall The which HEE doth HIS Kingdome call Where-of Saynct Peter had the Keyes And his Successours haue all-wayes This is the Pillar and the Ground Where-in all Trueth is to bee found So lyke-wyse Saynct Paul sayeth One Baptisme and one Fayth And one LORD IESU Haue no Dissention amongst you Shew mee anie Companie That in all Poyntes doe agree Except the Holie Church of Rome Then will I bee converted soone Eubulus That which as I thinke I haue evinced of all your Man 's former Marks I affirme of this also That it is impertinentlie yea falselie produced for a proper Marke of the Church in so farre as it is a common condition of manie thinges yea all thinges that are hoc ipso quod sunt anum sunt even in that they are they are in that same one as all Schooles acknowledge The Devils are vnited for Satan's Kingdome is not divided against it selfe And Briggands banded to robbe and sheede Blood are one So as still you see that your Man's mayne Proposition of his mayne Argument is vayne and sophisticall Neyther will VNITIE in all poynts ever conclude more of the Church of CHRIST than of the Antichristian bodie except VNITIE in all poynts be modified and of an indefinite VNITIE it be defined an VNITIE in all poynts of Trueth To which only demonstratiue Marke as I haue shewed of all the former so this of VNITIE must bee reduced also if there-on you would builde anie sure Conclusion For of the Antichristian Companie the holie Ghost hath in playne Tearmes fore-tolde These haue one mynde and shall giue their power and authoritie to the Beast and a little after For GOD hath put in their Hearts to fulfill his will and to doe with one consent for to giue their Kingdomes to the Beast vntill the wordes of GOD bee fulfilled And this is indeede that VNITIE where-of your Men so much glorie even a Conspiracie in Errour and no true VNITIE in Trueth as their manifolde and shamelesse Shiftings in a cleare evidence of a selfe-accusing-guiltinesse from subduing their doctrine to just examination by Scripture the sole Rule of Veritie make more than manifest Now Satan never yet envyed VNITIE in Errour or ZEALE in Superstition Philomathes Well to let this goe with you of VNITIE which you haue indeede evinced of the former that it is no proper Marke yet as I sayde and you also admitted of the others so you can not denye of VNITIE but that it is a true Attribute of the Church and that therefore our Man's Argument for the Church of Rome concludeth verie clearlie thus The Church of CHRIST must bee a Companie keeping Vnitie in all Poynts But onlie of all Companies the Church of Rome keepeth Vnitie in all Poynts There-fore the Church of Rome is the onelie true Church of CHRIST Eubulus I will not quarrell the forme of your Syllogisme for that your Assumption hath the nature of a negatiue Position I say your Proposition is sophisticall and your Assumption shameleslie false where-by your Conclusion commeth to nought As for the Proposition though you shold modifie your indefinite all Poynts to definitlie all Poynts of Trueth yet hath it in-folded a deepe Deceit For if it bee vnderstood of All Poyntes of Trueth so absolutelie as who keepe not Vnitie in all and everie poynt there-of bee excluded from the Title of CHRIST HIS Church then is your Proposition perniciouslie false And your Man would but fraudule●…tlie put foorth a bloodie Table of Proscription where-by cruellie to forfault manie good Christian and Church from the Communion of the Bodie
or in another consideration wee call the Catholicke Church all of all Kinreds Tongues and Nations who vnder one and the same common Ensigne of Christian Profession giue their names to CHRIST and are in the count of His House heere whether they bee onlie in it or also of it or to speake improperlie as in some Cases the Fathers doe the Catholicke Church is the communitie of the Church holding Trueth in relation to Declyners there-from But your Poet appropriating this Title to the first Converters hath forfaulted from this Dignitie all the Converted by them And thus his Proposition is not onlie false but even ridiculous For how-so-ever the Converters of others by an improper Speach may be called Catholicks as anie particular Church holding Trueth is called a Catholicke Church or anie faithfull Man a Catholicke man because they are true partes of the Catholicke Church in which onlie is Trueth Lyfe and Salvation yet to call anie particular eyther person order of persons or companie the Catholicke man persons or Church it is an insolentlie arrogant Speach His Assumption I distinguish If hee affirme That Rome first converted all Nations to the Fayth and was the first publisher of the Gospell it is so shameleslie false as I thinke Satan might blush to broach out such a Lie How did Paul glorie in the LORD and that before hee did see Rome that from Arabia to Illyricum he had filled all with the Gospell of CHRIST and that most part where CHRIST had not beene named not building on anie other man's foundation Haue all the other eleven Apostles besides Peter forgotten thinke you their LORD's Commission of whom wee haue no certayne record that ever anie did see Rome If converting Nations to the Fayth might appropriate to anie Church downe of the same But no Companie offereth to GOD a cleane Sacrifice from the rysing of the Sunne to the setting of the same but the Church of Rome There-fore the Church of Rome is onlie and properlie the Catholicke Church The Proposition of this his Syllogisme hee taketh from the Prophet Malachie His Assumption hee prooveth stronglie for-sooth by an vndenyable Trueth That Onelie the Church of Rome offereth all-where the holie Sacrifice of the Messe Which hee maketh no question but that is the onlie cleane Sacrifice offered to GOD all-where from the rysing to the setting of the Sunne And thus hee thinketh his Conclusion can not fayle him Eriphilus And so I thinke also Eubulus and I hope shall thinke so still for anie Aunswere you are able to make there-vnto how-so-ever you would seeme for-sooth to make a verie light account of it and would according to your manner laugh-over those Argumentes which most pintch you Eubulus Then advert what I haue to say and thinke syne what you please The Condition of CHRIST His Church set downe by Malachie whence the Poet bringeth his Proposition I acknowledge according to the Prophet his sense and wordes which your man Eriphilus resumeth deceitfullie The wordes are these From the ●…sing of the Sunne to the going downe there-of My Name shall bee great amongst the Gentiles and in all places Incense shall bee brought to My Name and a cleane Gift These cleare and distinct wordes eyther ignorantlie or fraudfullie your man obscureth perverteth and involveth to darken the difference betwixt expiatorie Sacrifices or Sacrifices for sinne and other Oblations of Prayse or due Worship vvhich both in their diverse Types are most distinctlie put and in the Anagogicke Veritie must bee diverselie considered And this your man doeth to bring some Colour to his Assumption which is impudentlie false Neyther will the Offering of your Messe which is neyther cleane holie nor a Sacrifice but a most sacrilegious prophanation of an holie Sacrament and the moste detestable Idolatrie that ever was defended for good Worship appropriate to Rome the Offring all-where of Incense and a cleane Gift to the LORD Are you so shallow a Man in Scripture Eriphilus that you know not how all true Christians anie-where beeing made Kinges and Priestes to GOD in CHRIST doe offer vp to Him the Sacrifices of Prayse even the Calues of the Lippes Doe wee not offer vp our selues an holie living acceptable Sacrifice even our reasonable Service What-so-ever workes of Charitie wee in the feare and loue of GOD performe are they not Sacrifices and accepted in CHRIST To doe good and to distribute forget not for with such Sacrifices GOD is well pleased sayeth the Apostle Is not the Liberalitie of the Philippians by the same Apostle called A Sacrifice of sweet Savour and acceptable to GOD Your Man his whole Senses haue beene drowned in his Challice when so doltishlie hee forgot him-selfe as to leaue no cleane Offering in the Church but his monstrous Messe As for anie other Sacrifice for sinne but that one and once for all offered wee acknowledge not So as your Messe may be well relegated to sicke Swyne for whom vpon conveaned pryce your Men haue mumbled out a million Now as your Questioner playeth the Cavillatour both in that hee confoundeth diverse kyndes of Sacrifices and also that hee acknowledgeth not with cleare Scripture anie other cleane Oblation in the Christian Church but the Mischiefe of the Messe So hee illudeth more-over by reasoning from Sacrifice and Oblation figuratiuelie and allegoricallie spoken of to Sacrifice and Oblation in proprietie of signification from typicall speaches concluding not allegoricallie but properlie and that most ignorantlie foolishlie The Prophets fore-speaking of CHRIST His Kingdome doe ordinarilie expresse the Condition thereof vnder Legall Types where-by it was fore-shadowed Which is so evident in all their manner of Dispensation as it is marvell if anie dare pretende to misknow it Speaking of the Conversion of Nations a●…d of their Association to the Church they prophecie That all Nations shall come yearlie and worship at HIERUSALEM Which to vnderstand properlie it were to bee a proper Asse in Divinitie For expressing of the great measure of Light and Knowledge vnder the Gospell they prophecie That all men shall see Visions and dreame Dreames to declare that the Worship of GOD shall bee no more tyed to anie one place but that all-where who worship Him in Spirit and Trueth shall bee accepted Isaia telleth of three Altars to bee erected one in Iudea one in Assyria and one in Aegypt And thus to show how the worship of GOD should bee no more confined within the Iewish natiō or precinct of Canaan Malacbie fore-telleth That Incense and a cleane Gift shall bee offered in all places and that the Name of the LORD shall bee great from the rysing of the Sunne to the going-downe there-of And howe will you out of this make your monstrous Messe or out of your Messe make the miserable Mongers there-of to bee the Catholicke Church except first you make Mules of Men Or is there anie eyther Shame or Sinceritie in disputing when vpon typicall Praedictions Conclusions are inferred