upon our persons in our absence began by our presence againe and the blessing of God upon us in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for our selves or cause And if at your first appearing so many of those mists and in so great a measure were vanisht then surely by that time your writ this Apologie all might have been vanisht and scattered But let me aske you Whose mis-apprehensions doe you understand you lay under that you present this Apologie to the Parliament and appeale to them Doe you meane you have laine under the darke cloud of the manifold mis-apprehensions of the Parliament 〈◊〉 or of the people of the Kingdome Certainely not under the darke cloud of the mis-apprehensions of the Parliament They are too great and wise a Body to be guilty of manifold misapprehensions of you Besides what Ministers have had the sunne of their favour shining upon them more then your selves You all have been made Members of the Assembly by them called to preach before them upon their publike solemne occasions and some of you employed in extraordinary services But if you understand the mis-apprehensions of the body of the people why doe you present this Apologie to the Parliament what would you have them doe for you or how shall they free you from the darke cloud of manifold misapprehensions I suppose you doe not expect that the Houses should set forth a Declaration to cleere you five neither make an Ordinance that whosoever mis-apprehends you and your wayes shall be reputed ill affected to the publike though M. S. your new great friend sets the brand of malignancie on them who are against you Why doe you then appeale to them in respect of the misapprehensions of the people or trouble them with so triviall a matter Doe you not know the people will mis-apprehend persons and opinions though plainely and fully laid downe which yours never yet were And indeed for any cloud of manifold mis-apprehensions you have hitherto laine under you may thanke your selves and never appeale to the Parliament to be a refuge and Asylum for your mistaken and mis-judged innocence whenas according to your owne confessions in this Apologie going in a new and different way from all the Reformed Churches you have never yet declared what you hold and what not neither have answered the Bookes written against your way but have reserved your selves And yet whereas you pretend a cloud of manifold mis-apprehensions as the ground in this way first to present your selves and to appeale to the Parliament And 't is a usuall phrase in the mouthes of your party to put off arguments with that you are mistaken I know not for mine own part and some others of my bretheren wherein any of you have been mis-apprehended by us but we have so farre judged of you as to goe by no other rules but your known practises and your letters and other manuscripts given and sent out to your followers and from what some who are of your own Churches and your familiar friends have held out and pleaded for as your Principles together with what we find in the printed Treatises of them of New-England the New-England way being generally taken to be your way and I heard Mr Bridge since this Parliament openly affirme it for himselfe and others we agree with them of New-England and are of their Church-way And Mr Burroughs hath said so too As for the first presenting your selves to the Supreame judicatory of this Kingdome had it not been for the reasons given you above I should not have spoken against it but seeing you have appeal'd unto them unto them ye shall goe 〈◊〉 unto the Parliament as the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse and withall the most sacred Refuge and Asylum for innocence I appeale too humbly desiring them if their great affaires can spare any time to read this Antapologie with the Reasons I above two yeareâ—… since presented to the House of Commons against your Helena of Independencie and your Diana of toleration Meane time I cannot but stand and wonder that you knowing and acknowledging the Houses to be the Supreame Judicatory of the Kingdome c. how you had the face to presenâ—… an appeale to them in things untrue wherein many people can point to and say passages in the 25 and 26 pages are not so I heard saith one at such a Church one of the five preach of their Church-way and I heard saith another another of them at such a Church preach the like But why doe I wonder when it will appeare in the following discourse you have so much in your own cause at this time lost your selves and forgot your principles as that ye doe ascribe to the grace of God and call God to witnesse your constant forbearance of publishing your opinions by preaching c. which how untrue 't is I shall evince when I come to the 25 and 26 pages or else let me suffer And thus much for the occasion or Preface of this Apologeticall Narration The most if not all of us had ten yeares since some more some lesse severall setled stations in the Ministery in places of publike use in the Church not unknown to many of your selves but the sinfull evill of those corruptions in the publike worship and government of this Church which all doe now so generally acknowledge and decrie tooke hold upon our consciences long before some others of our brethren And then how impossible it was to continue in those times our service and standings all mens apprehensions will readily acquit us Here begins the Narration wherein we may consider the Matter of it and the Manner and way of the carriage and contrivance of it The Matter consists partly of Fact and Practise And partly of Opinions and Tenents both which all along in their Narration are interwoven within each other Their opinions and Tenents in their practises and their practises in their opinions The matter of the Narration consists of three maine parts First of their Opinion and fact before their Exile The second of their Opinions and Practises in their Exile The third of their carriage and behaviour since their returne into England from their first comming over to the time of putting forth this Apologie The Manner of carrying it all along is clothing the Narration in such words phrases and in such a way though the Church principles are laid downe and maintained in it as to make the Parliament and Kingdome believe they differ little or nothing from the Reformed Churches and from our Church now And in the things wherein there is some difference of which they give but three instances though the differences be many and so great in their account as to constitute new Churches and to forsake communion upon them yet they render them so to the Parliament and Reader as if the Reformed Churches in the differences between them could not but allow their way and practises though there
State-ends and politicall interests namely â—…at when some great persons Lords and others should be forced through the badnesse of the times as was expected and feared to seek for shelter in Providence and Hispaniâ—…la you might be there ready to remoove with them and be taken along into those Countreyes where you hoped to set up new Churches and subdue those Countreyes and people which should come over into your mould Or if otherwise things in England should come to have a great turne as they had by this Parliament then also by being in Holland rather then new-New-England you were nigh hand and your estates more at command quickly to returne to England having this Kingdome in your eye hoping you might either subdue England into the way of your Church-goverâ—…ent or else gaine a great party to you 〈◊〉 the Kingdome which we see is unhappily fallen out And 〈◊〉 all the State-ends and interests to come which you might loâ—…ke upon in your remooving to Holland there were worldly râ—…spects and interests for the present to make you goe in the Churâ—…-way as I have before observed And to all these whereas yoâ—… make the having no new-Common-wealths no Kingdomes to eye to frame Church-government unto as the ground of falling upon the right way Let it be considered by you and the Reader that the framing of a Church-government according to the conjunction of a few godly persons either in a Plantation or as strangers in a Common-wealth and not considering of a Church-government for Nations and Kingdomes that when Kingdomes and Nations doe receive the faith and the Magistrates are Christians and Orthodox that there must be a Church-government as for a Nation and Kingdome is that very thing that deceives you there being alia ratio urbis ac orbis and so a great difference of governing a family two or three or of a Towne and of governing a Nation and Kingdome But as for that Parenthesis you make before you end this Section That your Governement will bâ—… coexistent with the peace of any forme of Civill Governmeâ—… on earth out of the great care you have least your Church-gâ—…nment should suffer in the thoughts of many that it is not consistent with the peace of Civill-government 't is so farre from truth that your Government and Church-way cannot stand with the peace of any forme of Civill government no not with Democraticall government much lesse Aristocraticall or Monarchicall but should it be but tolerated much more established as the government in a Kingdome and Nation we should quickly find the contrary with a witnesse In this Intervall of Church-government we feele without a formall toleration of it woefull effects opposite to the peace and good of civill government And I desire to know from you how you will proove it and we shall be assured of it for we dare not take your bare word seeing that never yet any Kingdome or Nation entertained your Church-way and government there being yet no experiment of it which of the Presbyteriall goverment hath been in Kingdomes and Common-wealths this fourescore yeares And I must tell you that in New-England which yet was farre from being a Kingdome and Nation when they began to multiply and encrease this government had like to have ruined them both in Church and Common-wealth and had they not enterposed and since doe daily the power of the Magistrate and many suitable principles to the Presbyteriall way they had been ruined before this and what yet will be the issue unlesse they fall off more and more from their Independency a little time will shew and there are Letters from thence complaining of the confusions of necessity depending on that government We were not engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches And although we consulted with reverence what they hold forth both in their writings and practisâ—… yet we could not but suppose that they might not see into all things about worship and Government their intentions being most spent as also of our first Reformers in England upon the Reformation in Doctrine in which they had a most happy hand And 〈◊〉 had with many others observed that although the exercise of that Government had been accompanied with more peace yet the practicall part the power of godlinesse and the profession thereof with difference from carnall and formall Christians had not beeâ—… advanced and held forth among them as in this our Island as themselves have generally acknowledged We had the advantage of all that light which the conflicts of our own Divines the good old Non-conformists had struck forth in their times And the draughts of Discipline which they had drawn which we found not in all things the very same with the practises of the Reformed Churches And â—…hat they had written came much more commended to us not only because they were our own but because sealed with their manifold and bitter sufferings We had likewise the fatâ—…ll miscarriages and ship-wracks of the Separation whom ye call Brownists as Land-marks to forewarne us of thâ—…se rocks and shelves they ran upon which also did put us upon an inquirie into the principles that might be the causes of their divisions Last of all We had the recent and later example of the wayes and practises and those improved to a better Edition and greater refinement by all the fore-mentioned helps of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation almost to the number of another Nation and among them some as holy and judicioâ—… Divines as this Kingdome hath bred whose sincerity in theâ—… way hath been testified before all the world and will be to all generations to come by the greatest undertaking but that of our father Abraham out of his own Countrey and his sâ—…ed after him a transplanting themselves many thousand miles distance and and that by sea into a wildernesse meerely to worship God more purely whither to allure them there could be no other invitement And yet we still stood as vnengaged spectators free to examine and consider what truth is to be found in and amongst all these all which we looke upon as Reformed Churches and this nakedly according to the word We resolved not to take up our Religion by or from any party and yet to approve and hold fast whatsoever is good in any though never so much differing from us yea orposite unto us It may be if you had been engaged by Education or otherwise to any other of the Reformed Churches that you had seen the order and peace in some of the Reformed Churches and had you conversed with them before you drunke in these opinions you had never been transported with them in opposition to so many most worthy Churches but to what end is this brought in with all those particulars newly mentioned in the foregoing page We had we had with that passage in the close of the last Section We had nothing else to doe but simply and singly to consider how to
spirited men and of the vulgar and all kind of spirits But before I leave this passage of yours concerning the Separation pray let me aske you the reason of this Parenthesis and to whom you speake it whom ye call Brownists and why could you not have writ who are commmonly called Brownists Is it not to both the Houses of Parliament to whom this Apologie is presented and to whom you appeale your discourse being carried as spoken to them and does not this phrase of speech carry with it a secret checke of the Houses for calling the Separatists Brownists calling them so as you would not call them But who are you that you may not speake for so much as concernes this in the language of both Houses if both Houses call them Brownists Why may not you Five terme them so but we may guesse the Reason Mr Browne and your Principles are too nigh a kinde and you feared lest you might be called so but let me tell you though the Reformed Churches may not be called disgracefully Calvinians as the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland have well observed in their late book yet the Separatists and all Sectaries may fitly be termed from the Authours and so the Separatists justly called Brownists because as he was one of the first Leaders in that way so he was the first that digested that way into forme and method and writ so for it and the first that visibly and openly drew so many out of this Kingdome beyond the Seas and therefore both Houses of Parliament and others too may truly terme those who goe in Brownes-way Brownists As for that last passage in this Section that last of all We had the recent and laâ—…er example of the wayes and practises of those multitudes of godly men of our own Nation c. which without so many words you might have said New-England but that on purpose you would take an occasion of extolling them to the Heavens and so render both your selves and way in them more glorious both to the Parliament and people into whose hands your Apologie should come Sure you might more truly and ingeniously have put them in the first place and have writ First of all We had the recent and later example of New-England which wrought to my knowledge with some of you very much and that the purposes and intentions of some of you were first for New-England as you may remember some of you told me One of you marrying a wife in reference to your going to New-England and how farre he was hindered or altered by her death he knowes Another of you having sent over goods before and in particular books where he meant to follow after I have a very bad memory if these things be not so A third namely Mr Simpson when he desired his dismission from that Church at Rotterdam he alleadged that as a cause that he was intended for New-England but I must examine the Encomium made by you here of New-England and see whether to make it hold the words must not have the allowance of that figure in Rhetorick called Hyperbole the first part of the praise is Multitudes of godly men of our own Nation almost to the number of another Nation Are the godly men in New-England so many in number that they are almost the number of another Nation that they doe almost make such another Nation as England then New-England hath more godly persons in it then old England for the multitudes of godly persons amongst us are not almost so many here as to make another Nation but it will be found that granting all the men in New-England were godly which yet you dare not affirme seeing multitudes live there without the Church who are not accounted visible Saints yet what are they to so many people as are in England reckon up all the persons in new-New-England good and bad and list them and they will be found not to come almost to the number of the Nation that lives in London nay hardly to come to the twentieth part there What are they then in new-New-England to this whole Kingdome and then doe but substract all that are not of their Church and it is evident your affection is better to new-New-England then your Arithmeticke and in this particular that Proverbe of Almost must help you But shall I give you the reason of this stretching here 'T is to possesse the Parliament and Kingdome what a great party you have for your Church-way Almost another Nation in new-New-England and Almost another Nation of your way in old England which may serve to ballance your opposite party of Presbytery in England and Scotland and therefore the Parliament shall doe well to take notice of your Numbers to grant you a Toleration at least of your Church-way lest you being such multitudes should c. I could tell stories what some of your way have spoken if they might not have their way but I shall spare them now The second part of your praise of New-England is And among them some as holy and judicious Divines as this Kingdome hath bred That there are holy and good Divines among them whom I truly love and honour I acknowledge but I judge this too transcendent a phrase and more then befits the words of sobernesse Some as holy and judicious as this Kingdome hath bred It had been an expression high enough to say as holy and judicious Divines as any you now know in this Kingdome but to say as this Kingdome hath bred how know you that and how can you affirm it You were not acquainted with many who lived before being all young men to speake of so that there might be before your times men more judicious and holy and if we may judge by the works of some men and by their lives written and by the reports from good hands of the godly ancient Ministers there were men more judicious and learned then any now in New England as Whitaker Reynolds Brightman and others and more holy as Mr Greenham Mr Banes old Mr. Dod c. But for the holy and judicious Divines of New England there are not above three or foure at most were ever accounted so eminent I might say but two and yet the present age hath Divines in England to compare with them both for learning judiciousnesse and piety so as you needed not to have gone backe to the ages past Take the prime man of them all in new England and yet he is not to be accounted as judicious and learned as ever any this kingdome bred Doctor Whitakers never held any opinion that was accounted erroneous nor any private peculiar opinion but what was commonly held in the Church of God as it is reported in his life but the most eminent Minister in New-England though he be an excellent and worthy man hath had his errours and I referre you for proofe to his Discourse about clearing the Doctrine of Reprobation which is in some of your hands
speake truth you were so much the peoples Darlings and Favourites having such a power both with the people and with many in place that not to oppose or reproach your persons but your opinions and that but collaterally and interpretatively was enough to unsaint many men as good as your selves and to blast them with many for the present As for that comparison the opposition and reproach of good men as grievous to your spirits as suffring Exile I conclude your Exile was very gentle then and I judge both much alike grievous that is neither but what tender spirits have you and what constitution are you made of that a little opposition and reproach of good menâ—… especially having with it so great applause and high esteeme to over-ballance it should be so grievous to your spirits as many yeares suffering even unto exile Many of us have and doe endure great oppositions reproaches revilings and stornes from those who would be thought not onely good but the best men with many neglects slightings desertings and ingratitude from whom we had all reason to have expected the contrary and all this in the shade without any one beame of speciall favour shining upon us which though we could not but see and take notice of all along and cannot but upon this occasion upbraide the unthankfulnesse of many people leaving all to God to cleare our righteousnesse and to convince them yet we have made no complaints to the world nor written Apologies for our selves but through the grace of Christ have in patience possessed our soules without much grievousnesse to our spirits our Consciences within us witnessing we have suffred all this for our faithfulnesse to God and to his people and for no other cause given to them and if opposition and reproach from good men be no lesse grievous then Exile some of us who have been Anti-Independent have suffered a sore Exile more yeares then you the Apologists For besides our reproaches during the time of your Exile in Holland we have since your returne from Exile even to this present day suffered many reproaches and lost all manner of wayes in name estate and friends for nothing else but for appearing against the Brownists and Independents and how much in the meane time most of you have gained all manner of wayes is written with a sun-beame But what is this opposition and reproach from good men you have endured no lesse grievous then an Exile for many yeares you say even the threatning of another banishment Is the threatning of another banishment so grievous a matter that you here present it to both Houses as a motive to perswade the Parliament to grant you a Toleration Threatned folkes they say live long and so may you you are not yet banished nor used as men likely to be banished besides the good men that threatned it had no power to performe it Banishment belongs not to them I can hardly beleeve it that such high and confident men as you are should be so troubled with threats especially from men in whose power it lies not but you are willing to make any thing an Argument to both Houses to consider you in that point If one or both Houses had threatned you banishment that might have beene as grievous to you as your former Exile but for any of your fellow-Ministers you might have threatned them againe and have stood upon equall termes I know in some cases and could name how some of you have done it and when words have been spoken to you about your opinions by some Ministers you have given as good as was brought you and have bid them doe their worst you doubted not but by your friends to make your part good and that you had as many for your way as they But for my part I doe not remember any good men who have threatned you with another banishment some may in reasoning with you have argued against a Toleration of your Independent Government and if you will from thence by consequences say they threatned you banishment I judge this is farre fetched For my book which may be is partly aimed at in this as well as in other passages of your Apologie I can cleare it that I threatned you not with banishment but laboured to satisfie you how you might enjoy your consciences in your own land and did lay down a Medium between banishment and a Toleration As for that which you say of your selves that you have been through the grace of God upon you the same men in both in the midst of these varieties I answer if you were the same men in your Exile as you have been since your returne into the Kingdome you have no great reason to boast of it nor to present it to the Houses as a Motive to be the more considered of for most of you have been in England very high and peremptorie and your owne Apologie with this Antapologie gives a full Character of your carriage here so that I may turne these words thus we have been through the corruption in us the same men in Holland and England in the midst of these varieties namely seeking our selves and our owne particular ends too much yea too high confident and peremptorie in our way As for the close of your Apologie in the last nine lines And finally as those that doe pursue no other interest nor designe but a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest in our own land c. You come in this to that which was first in your Intention though brought in last for a Conclusion on purpose to leave a deeper impression in the Parliament at the close of all namely that the Houses would grant you a Toleration of your Independent Churches expressed in these soft and faire words the allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse which Toleration is ushered in compassed about and closed up with what may be most likely to take namely summing up what is past all your sufferings and patience in Exile reproaches c. with your doings for Reformation and being the same men in all conditions and what is yet to come laying all together to draw both Houses towards you and to worke the people of the Kingdome to stand the more for you Now for answer to this close of your Apologie as containing the end and aime of your writing it I will first examine the Arguments and expressions brought by you to effect your end to perswade the Houses and secondly speake to the thing and matter namely the Toleration of Independent Churches and Government in this Kingdome For the first I answer what you may doe for the future whether you will pursue no other Interest nor designe in this Kingdome but a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest I will not prophecie but if we may argue from what you have done and what yet you doe then there is great cause of feare you will pursue other Interest and designes for you have
I faine nothing nor wittingly mis-report any thing no not in the least circumstance neither have I taken up reports lightly but what ever I affirme or assert in this Answer I either had it from their own mouthes or can shew it in their own letters or in other manuscripts or in some printed books of men of their way and communion or else have received it from credible persons many of them eare witnesses and eye-witnesses upon the places All which witnesses are either learned godly judicious Ministers or else godly Christians some their friends and familiars who have beene amongst them and converst with them both in Holland and England And I appeale to many of my Reverend Brethren in the Ministery and to many godly Christians and to the consciences of the Authours of this Apologie upon second thoughts and to their own followers and Church-members whether all along I speake not the truth Our eares have been of late so filled with a sudden unexpected noise of confused Exclamations though not so expressely directed against us in particular yet in the interpretation of the most reflecting on us that awakened thereby we are enforced to anticipate a little that discovery of our selves which otherwise we resolv'd to have left to time and experience of our wayes and spirits the truest discoverers and surest judges of all men and their actions You make the ground and occasion of setting forth this Apologeticall Narration now to be your eares of late so filled with a sudden and unexpected noise of confused exclamations interpretatively reflecting on you It will hardly be believed by wise men that such men as you should make such an Apologie and that in such a juncture of time the Assembly sitting and being upon Discipline and you members of it upon so weake and sleight grounds as a sudden and unexpected noise of confused exclamations comming to your eares which as they are soone raised so are they as soon gone and often die of themselves and by wise men nothing more slighted especially being sudden and confused If other of your brethren who swimme not with the streame of the times and are not the darlings of the people should upon every occasion of their eares fild with a sudden and unexpected noise of confused exclamations even when they are expressely directed against them and not only in interpretation reflecting on them write Apologies and make defences they should judge they had little to doe and might have filled City and Countrey with Apologies before now There are who will not be perswaded but are induced rather to think there were other motives and grounds of your writing that Apologie at that time and the rather because there have been heretofore such noises of confused exclamations at least interpretatively reflecting on you and you pass'd them by Shall I tell you what is judg'd to have rather enforced you unto this worke Many of the Ministers in the City not long before drew up a letter to the Assembly concerning some Church grievances and in particular that of gathering of Churches and drawing away their people which letter as it was not directed in particular against you so it reflected in the words and sense upon many others rather then your selves which letter how it was accepted of by the Assembly and what speeches and motions were upon it how to remedy and prevent the evills represented and especially that of gathering Churches you better know then I. But soon after some considerations were put forth by many members of the Assembly to disswade from gathering Churches to which considerations your hands were subscribed Upon what reasons you complied in that and whether you could not well avoide it without greater prejudice to your cause you know best And now whether this Apologeticall Narration was not first hastned to follow upon these considerations to counter-ballance that act of yours against further gathering of Churches that your cause and way might receive no losse and prejudice and to satisfie your own party many of them greatly exclaiming against you for your hands to those considerations and so thinking by this after game to recover all I leave to the reader to judge 2. Whether also you well knowing that the Assembly was upon the borders of the maine points in difference and upon comming to debate Presbytery Ordination Excommunication you put not forth this book to tast and try the spirits of the Assembly and others before hand 3. Whether also this was not intended to pre-possesse the peoples minds to lay in prejudice against what the Assembly might determine and by discovering your selves so before hand and so publikely ingaging your selves your party might appeare and stand the more by you and with you for a toleration the great designe of the men of this way in these times 4. Lastly Whether as much as you durst this Apologie was not set out just upon the comming-in of our brethren of Scotland to our helpe to asperse the Governement and Reformation of the Church of Scotland and to lessen the esteeme of that Kingdome and Church so much and so deservedly valued by this Kingdome but looked upon by all the men of the new Church way as the great let of their Independent government These reasons with some other may well be thought to be the ground of your Apologie but that alledged by you the sudden and unexpected noyse of confused exclamations seemes so farre from a Reason that upon good grounds is doubted whether it can be true that a noyse of confused exclamations reflecting on you and your wayes could be sudden and unexpected to you 'T is strange to me that exclamations should be to you at that time unexpected that a few men going in a new by way different from all the Reformed Churches of Christendome and that with so high a hand as you and your party have done should not expect speaking against and to have their eares filled with outcryes and exclamations not only confused and interpretative but distinct particular and personall Now as the pretended ground of making this Apologie is taken from you so what you affirme in the following words that you were awakened thereby is denied for you have never been asleepe since your comming over into England but have been alwayes watchfull and intent to the uttermost upon all things which might either further your way or might hinder it 't is we who need something to awaken us as having been too much asleepe in respect of you for whilst the husbandmen have slept you have both sowed tares and reaped a harvest But I am in hope that your Apologeticall Narration and this Antapologia together will awaken both Parliament Ministers and people more and more and open mens eyes to judge of things aright between you and us As for the being enforced to anticipate a little that discovery of your selves which otherwise you resolved to have left to time and experience of your wayes and spirits It appeares manifestly
liberall maintenance annually for our Ministers yea and constantly also wine for our Communions And then we againe on our parts not only held all brotherly correspondencie with their Divines but received also some of the members of their Churches who desired to communicate with us unto communion in the Sacraments and other ordinances by vertue of their relation of membership retained in those Churches In the last Section I prooved both by Letters and many other presumptions you alwayes held not that respect to the Church of England you seeme to professe in that Section if now at last you be growne more sober and wise upon reviewing your principles I am glad of it non est pudor ad meliora transire For this Section your being received and entertained with the like respect from those Reformed Churches abroad and your mutually giving and receiving the right hand of fellowship If I may beleeve reports and Letters and those not light but from Ministers and good people I have been by word of mouth told and I have in writing from thence grounds to question the truth of this Narration A godly Minister out of Holland in answer to some questions sent about the truth of your Apologie writes thus to this present Section And here I cannot but adde this that whereas the Apologeticall Narration mentions these things as an argument of the incouragements they had in these parts and their good concurrence with the Churches here it hath been affirmed to me from very good testimony that however the Magistrates at Rotterdam for politick ends as to gather company to them which is for the profit of the place yet the Churches there I meane the Dutch never approoved of the course held there by these Brethren and their people It hath been affirmed to me that many of the Dutch Ministers were much offended at Mr Bridges being ordained Minister by the Lay-elders without any preaching Presbyters And what ever right-hand fellowship and brotherly correspondency you might hold with the Dutch Divines some of the English Ministers of the Reformed Churches there have complained of your great strangenesse and distance towards them and instance hath been given me particularly by a great friend of yours now in London that when some of you have come to Amsterdam you never would goe to Mr Herrings a good old non-conformist but have gone to Mr Canne's the Separatist and to his Church And besides this report told me some yeares agoe from a friend of your owne that I might not only beleeve reports I sent over into Holland some questions about the truth of some things related by you in this Apologie the contrary whereunto I had been informed of before and among other questions upon this Section I propounded what communion and converse passed between the godly English Ministers and their Congregations and you or whether when you came to Amsterdam you went not rather to the Brownists meetings and conversed with Mr Canne more then the Reformed Ministers Unto which question I had this answer in so many words sent To this I can say that since my comming hither we have had no such communion with them as that we have prevailed with any of them to preach in our Congregation though I am sure some of them have beene earnestly importuned thereunto indeed Mr Bridge seemed once to be willing but did not And for their going to the Brownists and conversing with Mr Canne more then us that is undeniable What you may of this reade in Epistle to the Rejoinder indefence of Mr Bradshaw against Mr Canne is most true and certaine But suffer me a little to examine the particulars wherein you would proove the mutuall giving and receiving the right-hand of fellowship For the first That you were received and entertained with the like respect that you gave to our Churches in England I easily beleeve which was but little And if the Reformed Churches look't upon you and you on them as you did upon our Churches in this Kingdome you have no cause to boast here of mutuall giving and receiving the right hand of fellowship remembring what I answered to your last Section concerning your profession of our Churches As to that proofe you bring of their giving you the right hand of fellowship in their abundantly manifesting it by the very same characters and testimonies of difference which are proper to their own orthodox Churches and whereby they use to distinguish them from all those Sects c I answer this was not to all of your Churches for Mr Simpson which yet is your way and is here owned by you all in this Apologie had not a Church or publike place for worship granted to him nor the priviledge of ringing a Bell to call to meetings but was looked upon as a Sect as Mr Bridge told me And in a Letter out of Holland from a good hand to that question Whether Mr Simpsons Church had the allowance of ringing a publike Bell to call to their meeting and whether any maintenance allowed by the States 'T is answered To this I shall say I never yet heard by any that his Church had any such allowance of Bell or maintenance by the States Now if Mr Simpsons Church was lookt upon as a Sect tollerated but not owned wanting that great signall of difference between allowed Churches and all other assemblies namely the priviledge of ringing a publike Bell to call unto their meetings and the rest of your Churches being just of the same way and constitution with his as appeares by this Apologie then the ranking of you now you are here with Sects is no great injury to you Neither will the granting to your two other Churches publike places to worship with maintenance for some of your Ministers c. free you from being lookt upon as Sects by the Churches and Ministers there but I must tell you these priviledges came from other grounds as namely one of your Churches consisting of many persons of great quality and going at first to a priviledged place the other Church having formerly been a Church in the way of the Reformed Churches there and so had then the allowance of a publike place The first sensible declining of that Church to the new-way being by Mr Peters before he went to New-England Now Mr Bridge comming to that Church and bringing with him and after him wealthy Citizens and Clothiers by which the Magistrates at Rotterdam knowing well their advantage No wonder though they permitted that Church their publike place and gave to their Ministers a full and liberall maintenance yea and Wine for their Communions and yet should gaine well by it As for your holding all brotherly correspondency with their Divines which I suppose you meane the Dutch not knowing any of them I can say nothing against it but only 't is a great presumption that holding so little brotherly correspondencie with our own English Divines there you held not much with the Dutch But grant that
that most supreame namely to be in all things guided by the perfect will of God enacted as the most sacred law of all other in the midst of all other laws and Canons Ecclesiasticall in Christian States and Churches throughout the world This is a dangerous principle to goe by in the Church of God excellent for unstable men and wanton wits fitted for libertins and running heads that love no fixed nor setled government and serves well to the humour of a few particular persons but pernitious and sad for Nationall Churches and Kingdomes a reserve indeed and a good back doore to go out at from Brownisme to Anabaptisme and from Anabaptisme to Sebaptisme and from thence to Famialisme and Socinianisme It is a ready prepared way for those that would draw men into errours under the pretence of new light to worke upon and so to lead men from one errour to another till there be no end Which kind of principle of uncertainty in matters of religion the Remonstrants did hold forth in those sad times of the troubles of the Churches in the Netherlands that so they might overturne all formes and harmonies whereby the Churches both within themselves and one towards another might be setled and associated that was one of the scepticall rules of the Arminians dies diem docet But this principle of yours so carried all along in your resolutions seemes to crosse that first principle of the Scriptures the supreame rule and perfect for Church government for in effect it is as much as to hold that the government and way of the Church visible is so uncertaine and doubtfull as that little or none may be positively laid downe and concluded as Iure Divino Now according to this second principle and profession of yours why doe you make such outeries and tragedies in the Church forsaking all Churches for you know not what even for that which you made open and constant professions upon all occasions you would not be bound to and pray how doth this agree with your principle of Church government that it is in all particulars perpetuall and unchangeable whenas you will be changing it so often But certainely when you first fell to your Church-way and took up this principle you were not resolved what way to follow but thought that in some yeares by adding now and then and forsaking this and the other you might attaine to something in the end But let me aske you ought men in the matters of Religion and in things of the Kingdome of Christ to be Scepticks and so irresolved or ought not men to be perswaded in their consciences But I hope the Parliament will observe this great principle you were first acted by and still are in all your Church-way and will see how dangerous the tolerating of your way will be for though you should for present hold nothing much different from the established rule yet being allowed what may you not come to according to this principle how shall any State be sure of you long what you will hold What if you should bring in community of goods baptizing in rivers the holy Kisse into your Assemblies at the beginning and ending of your Ordinances annointing sick persons with oyle it is but according to your principle And we see you make so much of this principle and are so in love with it that you wish it next to your first principle enacted as the most sacred Law of all other to live and walke by it in Christian States and Churches throughout the world and I am perswaded if you would speake out you wish it instead of all other Laws and Canons 〈◊〉 You are not content your selves to be Scepticks and loose in the government of the visible Church but you would have all others to be liâ—… unto you not to make their present judgement and practise a binding law for the future but to make continuall professions upon all occasions of altering But let us consider what may be the reasons of such a passionate desire that this principle were enacted in all Churches I conceive these following 1. That others changing and altering as well as you the imputation of inconstancy and lightnesse might not stick upon you 2. That so you might gaiâ—… more to your way and Church by possessing them with this principle having this advantage to worke upon and this engine to draw the people with There is nothing you have concluded on but you are free and at choice still to take what seemes most probable to you whereas if men be set downe and resolved they are not so apt to change 3. That so you might not as you pretend block up the way to further light but keep alive that principle of New light and New truths and that men must not content themselves with old truths and the old light but they must seeke out after New light whereas establishment and setling of points upon serious debates and disputes both in points of doctrine with the fundamentals and substantials of discipline as the truths of God and the way for men to walke in upon such Scriptures and reasons will shut out such search as you conceive but this is a mistake to imagine that if any evident light from Scripture should come in afterwards especially considering that reformed Churches in their confessions and Articles hold that particular Churches may erre and may receive increase of knowledge and for matters of Discipline declare particularly that in the accessaries accidentals circumstantials Churches have liberty to change upon inconveniences and different occasions that may arise that they are ever the further off from it But this principle of irresolution and uncertainty in matters of Religion upon the ground of New light and New truths as it is commonly laid downe and drunke in now by men of the Church-way makes men unsatisfied restlesse doubtfull in their present practise and upon searching when they can find none the Devill and their own corruptions will make some and brings them old errors for New truths and men being possest by some that principles are to be new studied and that there are New truths and New light never known before Satan is not wanting to raise up one or other to vent errors under those notions as we see at this day in the Antinomians and the Anabaptists their great argument wherby they take so many being that of New light and New truths which God hath revealed in these times 4. I hope this principle so rooted in you and your frailty in the former way of conformity may be a reserve for you to come off from Independencie to Presbyterie upon the debates of the Assembly and from your Church-way to the way of the reformed Churches which I heartily pray may be the fruit of this principle so openly and constantly profest and am not wholly out of hope especially of some of you Thirdly We are able to hold forth this true and just Apologie unto the world That in the
and vigour are sensibly increased the Lord be praised And besides these letters the thing it selfe speakes for whereas in England he was not able to preach nor had not hardly three times in three yeares after he came into Holland he was Pastor of the Church at Arnheim and preached constantly and had that strength to beget a sonne whereas he being married many yeares in England never had any child And not only from him but from others also there have been many letters sent to commend the places where you lost your fellow labourers to be so healthfull and pleasant as to resemble them to Bury in Suffolke and Hart ford As for that high praise of those two worthy Ministers as precious men as this earth beares any I thinke it becomes you not they being yours and of your way and cannot be interpreted by the understanding Reader but that you take occasion here as in all other places of your Apologeticall Narration to magnifie and cry up your own party the more to make people to be in love with your way which had as precious men as this earth beares any but I judge it is too high and hyperbolicall for though I dearely loved the men and doe acknowledge they were precious and beleeve they are gone as that great Divine said in his sicknesse he was going where Luther and Zuinglius doe well agree yet I must needs correct that phrase as this earth beares any For I am of opinion that both in learning and piety they were inferiour to some not only in the earth which is wide and spatious containing Churches and Ministers more pretious then you know of but in this earth of England and Scotland and your Encomium of them if you remember what you writ before of some pretious men alive now in new-New-England as ever this Kingdome bred and granting that new-New-England is the earth doth amount to this that these two Ministers Mr Archer and Mr Harris were as pretious men as ever were in England which you must pardon me if I doubt it for I beleeve Whitakers Reynolds Baynes Greeneham Dod Brightman with many more were more pretious As for that other instance Your selves comming hardly off that service with your healths yea lives I have not heard of any great sicknesses any of you five had there excepting Mr Bridge who came hardly off with his health Some of you indeed had Agues there which you might have had in England in Suffolk or in Oxfordshire and for Mr Bridges sicknesse I judge it was as well occasioned and strengthened upon the unhappy differences and bitter divisions between him and Mr Simpson and Mr Ward and their Churches and the wicked reports raised upon him which discontented and troubled his spirit as by the distemper of the place or change of the aire and for others of you how fat and well liking you came backe into England and how all of you returned well clad and shining beyond most of us who lived alwaies in England many can witnesse and have spoken of it all which were no great signes either of the many other miseries the companions of your banishment nor of the comming off so hardly with your healths and lives When it pleased God to bring us his poore Exiles backe againe in these revolutions of the times as also of the condition of this Kingdome into our own Land the powring forth of manifold prayers and teares for the prosperitie whereof had been no small part of that publike worship we offered up to God in a strange Land we found the judgement of many of our godly learned bretheren in the Ministerie that desired a generall Reformation to differ from ours in some things wherein we doe professedly judge the Calvinian Reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Poperie to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves And it may without prejudice to them or the imputation of schisme in us from them be thought that they comming new out of Popery as well as England and the founders of that Reformation not having Apostolique infallibilitie might not be fully perfect the first day yea and it may hopefully be conceived that God in his secret yet wise and sacred dispensation had left England more unreformed as touching the outward forme both of worship and Church-government then the neighbour Churches were having yet powerfully continued a constant conflict and contention for a further Reformation for these foure score yeares during which time he had likewise in stead thereof blessed them with the spirituall light and that encreasing of the power of Religion in the practique part of it shining brighter and clearer then in the neighbour Churches as having in his infinite mercie on purpose reserved and provided some better thing for this Nation when it should come to be reformed that the other Churches might not be made perfect without it as the Apostle speaks Having Apologized for your selves and way in your principles opinions practises and carriage towards all sorts both before your exile and in your exile here in this section you come to Apologize for your selves and for what you have done since your comming back into England both before the Assemblie and since the Assemblie untill the time of putting forth this present Apologeticall Narration which beginning in this section is continued by you in the following sections to the 30th page But brethren why doe you in the beginning of this part of your Apologie give your selves that name of Gods poore Exiles was it not enough to have said when it pleased God to bring us backe againe into our owne Land but you must call your selves Gods Exiles and poore Exiles I wonder you tearmed not your selves poore pilgrims But the reason why you name your selves so here and in this Apologie take occasion so often to speake of exile and banishment may easily be guest at namely to commend your persons and way the more to the people and for want of better to take them with such popular arguments as suffering a grievous exile Thus in many other passages of your Apologie you bring in and insert many such kind of phrases to worke with the people the more but doe insinuate many things against the Presbyteriall way as of engagements publike interest c. But let me a little examine whether you five can fitly be stiled Gods poore Exiles I thinke to speake properly you neither were Exiles nor poore for you were not banished nor forced out of your owne Laud neither by being brought into the High-Commission Court or by Letters missive and Attachments out against you as ever I heard but excepting M. Burroughes who fled in haste as being in dangers for words spoken you went at your own times over into Holland with all conveniences of your Families and other companie Among the Greekes Fuga was called exilium and so you flying out of the kingdome in that sense may be cal'd exiles but how ever in some sense
and this serves for Scripture grounds to them Now then for the manner of ordering of this according to different Kingdomes Nations or Cities in fewer or more subordinations and in the way and manner of proceedings by severall Churches according to locall temporall and personall circumstances they know well they must goe according to generall rules of the word to the common lawes of nature and prudence and so they leave other Churches to doe the like And had we been led in our former wayes and our removall out of this Kingdome by any such spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularity which are the usuall grounds of all schisme we had since our returnes againe during this intermisticall season tentations yea provocations enough to have drawne forth such a spirit having manifold advantages to make and increase a partie which we have not in the least attempted We found the spirits of the people of this Kingdome that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse they finding themselves to be so much at libertie and new come out of bondage readie to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way And we found that many of those mists that had gathered about us or were rather cast upon our persons in our absence began by our presence againe and the blessing of God upon us in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for our selves or cause Whether all of you or only some of you were led in your former wayes and in your removall out of this Kingdome by any such spirit of faction c. I will not enter into your bosomes nor judge of secret things I leave you to search your selves and to give account of your spirits to the Father of spirits and whether you were led in your former wayes and in your removall out of the Kingdome by any such spirit or no 't is too evident by what I have fore-mentioned that a spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularity wrought too much amongst some of you abroad But though no such spirit led you there are to me and many others sufficient visible grounds of your removall out of this Kingdome after you once were off your setled places as your feare of personall violence your selfe-love and worldly wisdome to provide for your selves and yours what ever became of the publicke your horrible dispaire of comming in againe here or things ever turning in this Land as you twice expresse it your great and excessive admiration of the persons of some who were in the Church-way accounting there were no such men in the world as they your discontent and anger at the course and harsh usage in casting some of you out of your places which often times are grounds of heresies and schismes as I could shew out of Ecclesiasticall histories in Tertullian c. And besides these grounds if I may judge of your being led in your former wayes and of your removall out of the Kingdome as your selves make the argument by your spirit being drawne forth since your returne in making and encreasing a partie if that will evince your being led formerly by a spirit of faction and division or of pride and singularitie I know not how you will free your selves for since your returnes againe during this intermysticall season you have not been idle nor lost time but have laid hold on the temptations provocations and the manifold advantages to make and increase a partie nay you have not only laid hold on what you found readie to your hands namely the intermysticall season through so many great businesses comming in upon the Parliament one upon another the spirits of the people of the kingdom that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse finding themselves to be so much at libertie and new come out of bondage readie to take any impressions c. but you have made and encreased new for the making of a partie And I much wonder how you dare speake thus much lesse publiquely in print to publish that you have not in the least attempted to make and encrease a partie the contrarie whereunto is written in such great letters that he who runnes may reade it and I shall presently make evident in answering this passage with others of the like nature in the 25. and 26. pages For the spirits of the people of this Kingdome that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse and especially of the Citie and the adjacent parts you give a true character together with the ground of it finding themselves to be so much at liberty and new come out of bonduge and it is amongst all the passages in your booke one of the best and if the people would well mind and consider of it that they are readie to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way This might doe them as much good as all the Sermons you have preacht among them since your returnes and might prove an antidote both against the golden sweet poyson in this booke and the principles of your Church-way But thus we see by your owne confession how easily and readily errours are entertained by the good people of this Kingdome when as truth may stand without doores and knocke long before opened unto even as good Phisitians and good right phisicke hath a great deale a doe to find acceptance and admittance among the common-people when Mountabancks and Empricks are sought unto As to those words the finding that many of those mists that had gathered about you or were rather cast upon your persons in your absence began by your presence againe in a great measure to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for your selves and cause I answer O happie rare men powerfull and gracious with the people whose very presence without speaking a word for themselves or cause could doe thus much after a long absence what will not your speaking and writing for your selves then doe 'T is well for you the most eminent servants of God in all ages have not found mists that had gathered about them or cast upon their persons to scatter and vanish away so easily but after all Apologies and Defence for themselves and cause have found them to sticke close and we find it harder to wipe off the aspersions and mistakes cast on us from your side though for nothing else but for discharging our consciences and labouring to keepe good people from errours But Brethren if it were so with you as here you write what need had you then to write this Apologie to cleare your selves from mistakes especially having been now so long present in the Kingdome and resident in the chiefe Citie having the libertie of the Pulpits and being members of the Assemblie would not the sudden confused noise of exclamations restecting upon you interpretatively without the writing of this
of the piety wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one c. which testimony given by you to this Assembly and that Character given by you of the people and the Professours of this Kingdome in page 24. and 28. are worthy to be observed and are of great use in these times when the Assembly and their proceedings are so much traduced and spoken against by your followers and Churches and let me make this use of it to the people and sadly put this question to their Consciences Whether is more probable that an Assembly so judicious of so many able learned and grave Divines where much of the pietie wisedome and learning of two Kingdomes are met in one going in Gods way as you say page 28. making it their worke and businesse to find out the Government and the truth about the order of the Church visible and giving freedome of debates to men of different mindes and apprehensions seeking God publiquely and privately daily with so many prayers put up for them in all Churches at home and abroad beyond the Seas should find out the truth or Mr Lockyer Mr Batchelor Mr Carter with a company of weake ignorant men and women youths and maids apt to be seduced and ready to take any impressions and to be cast into any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way As to those words We would much rather have chosen to have been venting them to the multitude apt to be seduced I answer so you did much rather chuse to vent your opinions and principles both in publique and private to the multitude apt to be seduced according to the opportunities you had these three yeares then to communicate them to your godly brethren of the Ministerie as I have before fully shewed For this passage of yours But in a conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and reforming the Churches of Christ wee have adventured our selves upon this way of God wisely assumed by the prudence of the State whether this be so or no that you have had a conscientious regard to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truth and reforming the Churches of Christ let my last answer and what is before proved witnesse and if out of a conscientious regard to the orderly c. you adventured to be members of the Assembly and upon this way by an Assembly of searching out truths why did you not before the Assembly forbeare the disorderly and unpeaceable way of venting your selves to the multitude and of gathering Churches c. as also since the Assembly the disorderly and unpeaceable way of searching out truths in writing this Apologie in preaching some Sermons with some other practises which were no orderly nor peaceable wayes of searching out truths especially the Assembly sitting But them beleeve you that will I judge and that upon grounds and hints already given that other things made you adventure to be of the Assembly and to come thither constantly rather then the conscientious regard had to the orderly and peaceable way of searching out truths and I cannot let passe without some animadversions the phrase used by you here of your being members of the Assembly We have adventured our selves a very significant and true expression for I beleeve you accounted this Assembly a great Adventure for your Church-way and such a bottome as you would not have put it in at least not so soon if all the wayes you could have devised under heaven would have hindred it but it happened to you according to the Proverbe Nothing venture nothing have for supposing there must be an Assembly you might perhaps by being members of it doe your selves and way some good but by declining and refusing it you had been certainly lost But brethren what is the reason that in this Section wherein you give so full a testimonie to the Assembly and of your great adventuring to be members of it that you annex in the close these words following And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages both of number abilities of learning Authoritie the streame of publique interest trusting God both with our selves and his own truth c. Whether does not this somewhat reflect upon the Assembly as if there were a great hazard that things would be carried there by number abilities of learning Authority the streame of publique interest rather then by truth for if points were not likely to be carried so by plurality of Votes c. but by the clearest proofes from Scripture then these were no disadvantages to you but all the advantage would lie on that side whether many or few whether greater Scholars or lesse that could bring the strongest Scripture grounds and I must tell you that in such an Assembly as you confesse this is and is well known to be both for the persons and ends of its calling that great liberty of speech and debate with that solemne Protestation taken by every member at first sitting there a man need not account those things specified by you for any disadvantages for any two or three men nay one of a different judgement in Doctrine or discipline from that Assembly having truth on his side and but so much learning as to manage and make out his evidences though a man of no authority might easily cause the consciences of most there to owne and fall downe before that truth and to change their mindes yea and to blesse God for the light and imbrace the person or persons that brought it much lesse need you whose number is sufficient about ten besides some who are halfe Independents having parts and abilities enough and Authority to manage your arguments and even to command free and long audience complaine of these things for disadvantages but I am jealous this passage is here inserted and brought in to possesse the peoples minds fearing by this time this Apologie was set out things might not goe on your side and to give them something to confirme them in your way to teach them what to say namely though you had the truth and brought such strong arguments as were not answered yet you could not be heard but matters were carried against you by pieces the greater number of the Assembly by far being of another judgement as also by the streame of publike interest Authority c. And many of the people of the Church way speake thus already that the Assembly cannot answer your arguments but beare you downe with numbers the Parliament should have done well to have chosen as many of your way as on the other side and then there would have been a faire and even triall but I will examine all your disadvantages apart and give you and the Reader a particular account of them First For Number though you have not so many of your judgement in the Assembly yet you have a competent number to plead your cause and to be the mouth for all of your way to speake
and doe pursue the designe of increasing your partie and spreading your way as the onely way of God else why have you preached and done so much for it neither can I beleeve you are so low spirited and so terrene as to look out after no other inrerest but a poore subsistance in this Kingdome what have you not the designe and interest of setting up Christs Kingdome and pure Ordinances in the midst of us I professe for my selfe and brethren that we have greater interests and designes in our seeking Reformation then a subsistance in our owne land though it might be never so full and plentifull namely the glory of God the advancement of the Kingdome of Christ the opportunities of doing more service And as for a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest I appeale to the Conscience of the Reader whether that be likely have you contented your selves with a poore and mean condition hitherto have you lived in a poore rank preaching in poore and meane Congregations or have you not ruffled it bearing a higher saile and carrying a greater port then most of the Godly Ministers in Citie or Countrey have not some of you the prime Lectures of the Citie and other good places of advantage and profit besides what some of you have from your owne Churches could not you have been contented to have added more places and can any who know you in what height you live and what Grandees of the times you are and how much you appeare in publike in the chiefe places of resort and have insinuated into so many great men beleeve that you would live contented with a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest let them beleeve you who will for my part I am not satisfied in the truth of it but doe suspect that if the Parliament should make an offer to you to this purpose you would refuse it You say you pursue no other Interest or designe but a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest in your owne land well you five shall have your Church-way and enjoy Congregations in such a remote corner of the Kingdome provided you shall not have above fiftie pounds a yeare nor above fiftie persons to each Church you shall adde none from any other Congregations of the Kingdome nor admit any of other Congregations to come to heare you nor never preach in any of our Churches any of your Church-Principles nor speake of them in private to any but your owne members would this satisfie you in your Reply give a positive and cleare answer As for that you say where we have and may doe further service I answer before you fell into this new Church way you did God service but since you have done more dis-service then ever service and if God be pleased to bring you backe into the fellowship of this Church and to joyne in this Reformation to grow up into one body you may doe him further service otherwise in the way of a Toleration which you aime at you will doe more hurt then you can doe good in this Kingdom yea though you had the tongues and parts of Angels As for those words a subsistance in the land which is our birth-right as we are men and the enjoyment of the Ordinances of Christ our portion as we are Christians I answer a subsistance in the land according to the Lawes established is your birth-right but not otherwise besides the deniall of a Toleration of your Churches doth not deny you a subsistance in the land but you may subsist if you please though no Toleration But supposing you may not have what you please if thereupon you will remove to other Kingdomes that is your fault and not the States when a Father or Master lets their children and servants have what is good and fitting but denies to let them doe what they list and refuses to grant what would hurt them if the children and servants will goe away and put themselves upon inconveniences to have their mindes and wils else-where it is not the parents and masters fault but the children and servants if men will punish themselves with Exile because they cannot have their wils they can blame none but themselves And as for the enjoyment of the Ordinances of Christ which you say are your portion as you are Christians then they are your portion not as Church members but as Christians and why then doe you keep away many good Christians from them for want of being Church members after your way but let me tell you though the ordinances of Christ be the portion of Christians yet not in what way and dresse so ever they will have them for so the Papists may plead to enjoy them in their way and the Anabaptists in their way but they are the portion of Christians so as to enjoy them according to the word of God in the publike Assemblies and not in a schismaticall way and so may you enjoy among us publike ordinances in the publike Assemblies but to forsake the publike Assemblies and draw away others with you and to set up a wall of separation between you and the reformed Churches this is not your portion as you are Christians but it is against Christianity and is your sinne and schisme As for that allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse you need not doubt that so farre as will stand with peaceablenesse that is so as not to urge subscriptions upon you to all the points of government and order not to cast you out from preaching amongst us though you may be of a different judgement in some lesser matters especially so long as you keep your judgements to your selves and preach not contrary to what is established to make factions and parties But if you meane by the allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences that you and others may have free leave to set up separated Congregations and goe and receive in to your Churches whom you please and governe Independently in a different forme of government from the government established I must tell you this ought not to be granted as being inconsistent with peace and truth and would be a perpetuall root and source of many bitter divisions errours and mischiefes in this Kingdome As for your last words of all not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to sot your seet on earth that seemes strange to me doe none of the English Ministers who live in other parts of the world as in Holland New-England and other places enjoy safety health and livelihood are these things confined and tied only to England did not most of you enjoy all these abroad livelihood is confessed in your Apologie a full and liberall maintenance annually safety you went over for and found and as for health some of your way have commended Arnheim you lived at to be like Hartford and Bury in Suffolke and one of you Roterdam to be as good if not better then London which places for health
Contendebant etiamad solum magistratum immediatè sub Christo pertineâ—… judicium quando controversiae sidei â—…rtae sunt in Ecclesia Post Synodum in Confess Apol. cap. 25. negant ejuâ—… jus aut officium esse ad decreta Synodica ut ut verbo Dei conformia sint observanda obligare â—…omines sua auctoritate potestate ulla coactiva uti in ea parte negant etiam magistratum juâ—… habere in privatos conventus sed tantum in exercitia quae in templis seu locis publicis ad magistratum pertinentibuâ—… instituuntur Nam cum rebus sua ita consultum putarent aliter statuebaâ—…t contrarium quam admodum alibi a nobis est ostensum Robinson Apolog. cap. 11. de magistratu polit Idem prorsus sentimus de magistratu et illius munere quod ecclesiae Belgicae earum consessionâ—… hac in re ex animo suffragamur Burroughs oâ—… Hosea sixt Lect. pag. 164 165 166. â— Juâ—…us lib. 1. de Pontif. cap. 7 not 2. Nos ita distinguamus mâ—…gistratus qua magistratuâ—… est humanae societatis caput humana ordinatione qua Christianus vero est divinae societatis in Ecclesia membrum divina ordinatione in eadem custos vindex ordinis ut membrum electum ipsius not 4. se Christiani sâ—…t praestantia Ecclesiae membra b Voetius Disp. de quaest penes quos sit potestas Ecclesiastica part prim Thes. 4. Thes. 5. Rejicimus haec nova dictata Remonstrantiâ—… cap. 25. Apolog quorum prius non posse magistraâ—…ii aâ—… decreta Synodica veâ—… Dei consorâ—…ia observandum sua authoritate obligare con stringere c Apolloâ—… juâ—… majest circa sacra par post cap 3 exam qu. 12. statuimus quoâ—… magistratus potestatem habeat coactivam qua res Ecclesiasticas ex praescripto verbi Dei constitut as legitima via urget subdit is imponit ad disciplinam Ecclesiae stabiliendaÌ„ Ecclesiasticum tuendum ordinem d M. S to A. S. p. 55 5â—… 57 58 59 â—…0 * Concedendum publicum ministerij 〈◊〉 â—…um omnibus suiâ—… circâ—…mstantijs politicis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 consideratum eate nus magistratus directioni subjectum esse quod absque authoritate ejus approbativa seu confirmativa seu toâ—…erantiae jurisdictione ab Ecclesia publicè in ejus ditioneinstitui cum aâ—…paratu politico executioni maÌ„dari non possit nisi leges Reipublicâ—… junda mentales subditis id concedant tribuant Apollon jus majestatis circa sacra par post cap. 3. Exam quaest dâ—…decimae a Rejicimus haec nova dictata Remonstrantiam Magistratus nullam esse potestateâ—… in privaâ—…s convenâ—…us sed â—…tum in publica tempta Voet. disput penes quos sit potest as Eccl. Thes. 4. a De quest Penes quos sit potest as Ecclesiastica b Wale Tractde officio ministrorum authoritate atque inspectione qua magistratus super ministros haberâ—… debet c Apollon sus majestatâ—… circasacra d Altera differentia d wateria sumitur subjectoque administrationum Politicae administrationis sub jectum esse res humanas in desâ—…tione nostra posuimus ecclesiasticae divinâ—… esse sacras docuimus Iunius Eccles. l. 3. c. 4. Habere magistratum qua talem publicam potestatem judicialem seu judicandi judicio cognitionis non tantum sed decinitivo de negot ijs caufis Ecclesiasticis Quod judiciâ—… consequens â—…st non antecedens neque enim sunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Ecclesia adhaec praesuppositive est Theologicum sed formaliter politicum quia disquisitio ultimata in eo non est an hoc sit verum sed an velint illud publica authoritate tueri exequi Voet de quaest penes quos sit potest as Eccl. par 1. Thes 4. Apoll â—…us majest circa sacra cap. a par post pag. 63 64 65 6â—… 67 68. Apollon â—…s majest circa sacra cap. 2. examen quaestionis septimae * Nam remedium extreâ—…um atque acerâ—…mum est ad carnem in homine domandaÌ„ ac spiritum vivisicandum exemplum efficacissimum ne pars sincera â—…rabatur adversus verâ—… eas qui in contunacia impâ—…itentia perseverant medium unicum ad Dei domum fermento Ecclesia Christi scandalia liberandam atque adeo verbum sacramenta a pro pbanatione nomen Dei ab externorum blasphematione vindicandum Synops Punor Theol. Disput. 48. de Eccl. discipl thes 59. * Illa vero quae a spirituall Christi regno aliena sunt effectus qui ad hoc coeleste Christi regnil pertinent producere nequeunt proinde quod institutione divina ad eos producendos non sunt sanctificata Disciplina 〈◊〉 c. clesiastica nihil statuit in hominum bona jura dignitates fortunas c. Sed paena quae clavium potestate inâ—…gitur spiritualis quâ—… hominem internum est spiritualem ejus slatum concernit At veroextra speram activitatis politici Magistratus est internum hominem subigers spiritutiem poenam conscient ijs inferre vel hominii animas ab ijs liberare Apoll. â—…us Majesâ—… circa sacra cap. a. exam quest 7. pag. 10â—… * Zanch. de Discipl Eccl. Ad bâ—…c multa etiam sunt scelera in quae ne Magistratus quidem Christianus animadvertere so let aut tenetur ex legibus suis vâ—…uti sunt privatae in â—…tiae simultaies participatio â—…um idalolatris in aliquo impio cultu dissimulatio verae religionis deniâ—… multi maâ—… mores tum domestick tum publick qui non turbant aut pacâ—…m publicam aut honestateÌ„ commodum publicumâ—… Ecâ—…lesia vero ne â—…sta quidem ferre debet sed corrigere juxta Christi iustiâ—…tum Zanch. de Discip Ecclesiast * Illi certè nullo modosinendi sunt vivere cii illorum temporaliâ—… vita alijs 〈◊〉 aeterna mors Zaâ—…ch de magistr 168. Beza Epist. 83. Zanch de Eccl. 〈◊〉 gubern p 552. 〈◊〉 quar praecept 713. Rotterdam Septemb. 4 tâ— 1641. New stile Apolog. Apolog * Peter Martyr loc commun Class 4 cap. 14. de exilio Groeâ—… etiam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a fugiendo exilium vocarent Reformat of Church-government Reformat of Church gover pag. 14. * Bez. Epist. â—…8 * Bez. Epist. 83 Apolog. Catal Haeretic Schlusselb lib. decimus de Sect a Stenck â—…elp * IndependeÌ„ce of particular Congregations pleaded for pag. 100 101 102 103 a Every particular Congregation is an absolute Church having no jurisdiction over it but Christs alone and that immediately page 52 59. a Mr. Herle The Independency on Scriptures of the Independencie of Churches h Rise growth and danger of Socinianisme page 65 66. Reasons against Independent government pag. 19. * A briefe Narration of some Church courses held in opinion and practise in new-New-England by W. R. M. Cottons letter from out of England to M. Skelton in new-New-England Ans. to 32 questions p. 82. Keyes of the kingdome of Heaven Epist. to the Reader * Schlusselb de
not beleeve aâ—…y reports of this kind in the Booke that iâ—… comming forth meaning the Antapologie untill the Authors of them will appeare and bring their witnesses to a faire hearing in any lawfull though the strictest â—…licatorie c. and because he saith in what he is guilty before men he will confesse ingeniously That the Reader may not beâ—…uded to beleeve what 's said by him there and by that be prepossest against the truth of the Antapologie I accept of his motion and request and if he will be pleased to procure any lawfull though the strictest Judicatorie yea the highest I am ready for so much as concerns him to appeare and bring my witnesses to a faire hearing and if the Judicature will give time and grant Warrants to bring in the witnesses that they may be deposed I doubt not but besides a rationall Answer by way of writing which I intended to make also a full Judiciarâ—… proofe yea to prove more then yet I have charged Mr Simpson with only I desire if I must be put to this trouble that Mr. Simpsons small and just request may be granted by the Judicature that he may suffer if he have done what in the Antapologie is reported of him and if I cannot make it good then I am contented to suffer and I am willing also to be judged by his own Law Pag. 7. Lege Remmia to be branded with a K in the forehead if I doe not by witnesses prove his preaching and acting for his way upon condition he may be served so if I doe and to the letter K to have the addition of L and P. But it may be objected Why doth Mr. Simpson of all the Apologists put forth such a Book before hand and dare it thus I answer in his own words some may perhaps conceive 't is a signe of guilt to speake so much and I conceive Mr Simpsons guilt and consciousnesse caused feare and feare that hastned him to thrust forth something in the way of the Antapologie to blast the credit of it before it was come forth and the truth of it is he of all the Apologists hath been most faulty both in Holland and in England and for the close of this concerning what 's reported in the Antapologie of M. Sympson I shall speake in the words made use of by himselfe God taketh the wise in their owne crastinesse and will destroy such wisdome and so I beleeve he hath done this of M Sympsons forestalling the Antapologie â—…ad M. Sympson remembred a late example of M. P. and M. W. brought in to prove what they had said and written of a Person of place and the issue of that â—…iall or had he staid till the Antapologie had come forth to have read what I charge him with he would never have written thus 2. Propos. That t is no way of God to divulge mens personall faults supposing the matter of facts to be true yet the divulging of them in this manner is not according to the Word of God I answer all that is brought by the Anatomizer for proofe page 5. out of Matt. 18. and his other grounds are nothing to the case and point in hand namely of making this Answer and I would aske Mr Sympson whether it be lawfull to make any Answer at all to the Apologie if it be then certainly if the Apologists have personall things and matters of fact no man can answer them fully and as they ought to be answered but he must speake to personall things and matters of fact and the fault of divulging personall things is not in the Antapologist but in the Apologists As for the 18. of Matth. that speakes of private offences and of offences that may be in that way healed and the other grounds brought by M. Sympson speaks to offences already repented of and not of such which in stead of being judged faults are made use of publikely to draw men into a way of errour by I give therefore these two distinct Answers 1. The Apologists have publiquely and openly sinned in avowing some things in the Apologie and they never yet repented of them as I heard but M. Sympson justifies himselfe and them in his Anatomist anatomized pag. 4. Now the Apostles rule is 1 Tim. 5. 19 20. though Timothy may not receive an accusation against an Elder under two or three witnesses yet them that sinne openly may be rebuked before all that others may feare now as the Apologists by Printing told all the Churches so by Printing it may be told to all the Churches the remedie ought to be proportioned according to the disease the plaister to be as large as the sore the Apologie hath spread it selfe to the Parliament Citie Kingdome and so ought the Remedie may Independents publiquely confidently write untruths and may not others in way of answering plainly point at them but t is against the way of God and not according to the Word 2. This may not only lawfully be done but this ought to be done when men shall tell sine stories and bring matters of fact interweave them all along to prove such a way by and to gaine people to errours by such Rhetoricall arguments he who answers such a booke and would preserve people from errours is bound to disprove all he can those matters of fact and to speake to those popular arguments by weakning the truth of those Relations all he knowes and secondly by showing how they are not argumentative nor evincing supposing they were true T is well knowne by them who are verst in the writings of the Protestants against the Papists how in many of the Controversies especially upon the notes of the Church the Protestant writers doe wherein they stand on matters of fact disprove them by matters of fact and personall things as upon Unitie Holinesse of life c. and I conceive in giving an Answer to the Apologie I could not have declined matters of fact without gratifying the cause of Independencie and wronging the truth I suppose the excellencie of an Answer as distinct from writing Tractates upon such a subject or such a point consists in three things 1. In not speaking whatever a man pleases or bringing in whatever he hath a mind to but in following the text before him and in keeping his discourse close to that 2. In not omitting any materiall passages skipping over the knots passing by the hard arguments and falling on the weake snatching here and there but going thorough all 3. In labouring to take the Authours mind laid down in the words and scope and in not wresting and fastning another sense upon the Authour All which I propounded to my selfe in falling upon this Answer and have aimed at in it and therefore could not omit matters of fact nor personall things brought by the Apologists especially when all along they are with much art framed and set to gaine credit to the Church way to prove some maine principles of their way and to effect
by what I have answered already both of the weakenesse of that ground a sudden and unexpected noyse of confused exclamations and that in all reason you could not but expect exclamations that you were not enforced by that to make this Apologie and to anticipate the discovery of your selves Being schollers and understanding men you may blush to write that such poore things should inforce you against your resolutions but you were willing and desirous to make such an Anticipation and so you would make and find some ground for it judging a sorry excuse better then none at all but however you were not inforced to anticipate yet I must tell you this Aoplogie is an Anticipation with a witnesse such an Anticipation both for the unseasonablenesse of it and for the manner and way of it as I judge no story nor age can paralell it That you could not stay a little longer but in such a time when we need so much the assistance of our brethren of Scotland and the help of all other Reformed Churches in the face of the Parliament Assembly and Kingdome to put out such a peece and to doe such an act as this is beyond all example and I will but represent to your selves and the reader in a third person what you have done in making this Apologeticall Narration and then leave you to give sentence Suppose any other five Members of the Assembly men as considerable as your selves every way both for piety and learning nay any twenty Members of the Assembly had at the same time when you put forth this Apologeticall Narration only presented a bare Narration of a Government different both from the Government by Arch-bishops Bishops c. and from the Presbyteriall to both Houses of Parliament and that without reciting their doings and sufferings or pleading their great merits or without casting any aspertions on Presbyteriall government and the Reformed Churches and should have peremptorily concluded as you doe in two severall pages viz. 22 and 24. That we doe here publikely professe the true Government to stand and consist in the middle way betwixt that which is called Episcopall and Presbyteriall What would you five have thought of this and how think you would this have been taken by the Houses of Parliament and by the Assembly Whether would not you five and some others of you have cry'd out of this as a most strange fact and have strongly moov'd and aggravated it with all your might that this affront both to the Parliament and the Assembly so contrary to the nature and end of this meeting to pre-judge and pre-determine a Governement might be censured with a suspension from the Assembly at least if not an utter expulsion As for the discovering of your selves by this Apologeticall Narration which otherwise you should have left to time and experience This booke is not only a little discovery of your selves but a mighty discoverer of your wayes and spirits and shewes us what we may judge of you who will put out in publike a piece so fallacious and untrue as this will appeare to be But how ever this is the first discovery of your selves in this way with all your hands subscribed yet we have had a discovery of you for some yeeres past both in your practises of withdrawing from our Publike Assemblies and in gathering and constituting separated Churches preaching also often on the points concerning your Church-way as also writing Letters and other Manuscripts about â—…ose matters with other wayes wherein time and experiâ—…ce of 7 or 8 yeares last past hath been sufficient discoverers and sure judges of you and your actions And now we shall begin to make some appearance into publike light unto whose view and judgements should we that have hitherto laine under so darkâ—… a cloud of manifold mis-apprehensions at first present our selves but to the Supreame judicatory of this Kingdome which is and hath beene in all times the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse to appeare before much more to dare to appeale unto and yet withall the most sacred refuge ánd Asylum for mistaken and mis-judged innocence 'T is strange that having kept out of publike light as you say all this three yeares space you could not forbeare a little longer from telling fine stories of your selves and publishing your particular private opinions in print Especially considering there was an Assembly of Learned Divines of which you are Members to declare unto and with whom you might debate the points in difference where also you know you have all freedome and just respect And I must tell you 't is the judgement of some of your good friends that you were much mistaken in the time now and that you had been farre more excusable if you had put out this Apologeticall Narration a yeare or two agoe they interpreting it a violation of the Orâ—…nce by which you are Members a high affront and contempt to the Assembly in pre-judging of it and such a preingaging of your selves and party as you cannot retreat so easily and with that honour as you might before As also a ground of much disturbance and prejudice with the people against what shall be determined by the Assembly As to that you say we now begin to make some appearance into publike light In a sense'tis true for all the time that you have beene in your Church way both in Holland and England you have carried things closely and conceal'd all that you could possibly your opinions and practises with the grounds of them from your brethren the Ministers who studied and understood the points But for tender conscienced and weake Christians especially such whom you had any interest in any wayes and you had any probability to gaine to you you have not been wanting either in letters of Invitation or cominending some books of the Church-way to them as also by preaching and conference to draw them to you As for that quere Unto whose view and judgement should we at first present our selves but to the Supreame judicatory of this Kingdome I answer 1. To any rather then to the two Houses of Parliament to present before them such a darke covert doubtfull un-true Relation 2. In these points of difference about Church-government and worship you should have presented your selves rather to the Assembly than the Parliament and if you consult the Ordinance by vertue of which you are Members you will find it more conformable to have first propounded your doubts to the Assembly and if the Assembly could not have satisfied you then afterwards you had an allowance of giving in your Dissents with the grounds of them to both Houses As to that passage Your having hitherto laine under so darke a cloud of manifold misapprehensions which you make the ground of first presenting your selves to the Parliament by this Apologie How does this agree with what you write in page 24 And we found many of those mists that had gathered about us or were rather cast
with his being deceived for a time in the businesse of M Wheelwright and Mistris Hutchinson and some of those opinions about Sanctification evidencing Justification and to some other manuscripts and printed things about the Church-way where there are many things of wit and fancie more then of deep judgement The third part of your praise rises so high as 't is hardly to be paralel'd The sinceritie of them of New-England in their way restisi'd before all the world and will be to all generations to come by the greatest undertaking but that of our father Abraham out of his owne Country and his seed after him a transplanting themselves many thousand miles distance and that by sea into a wildernesse c. Certainly some Independents then must write their Chronicle or else their sincerity will not be so testified to all the world neither will they be so famous to all succeeding generations It is well that in this high praise of them who went to New-England there was some exception and that Abraham their father was excepted how ever in the instance you presently give of their undertaking you secretly preferre the men of New-England before Abraham for Abraham went by land and not by sea and not many thousand miles distance nor into a wildernesse But I am not satisfied in the truth of this undertaking for New-England but am of the mind there both have been and are greater undertakings besides Abraham and his seed after him namely that of Moses and Aaron carrying the people out of Egypt and leading them through the wildernesse to Canaan of Nehemiah and Zerubbabel in building of the Temple besides the present undertaking of the Parliament for Reformation in Church-government and worship against the Papists Prelates and Malignants which you had seen when you writ this Apologie was farre greater and is testified before the world and will be to all generations to come farre beyond that of New-England 'T is strange to me you should thus forget your selves to make the undertaking of New-England to be the greatest that ever was in the world but that of Abrahams But thus partiall we see good men are apt to be for their own party and even starke blind in their own cause And as I am no whit satisfied in this third particular of your praise of New-England so nor in the truth of the thing that you affirme they went to New-England for namely meerely to worship God more purely whether to allure them there could be no other invitement For that which was first held out and most spoken of in the beginning of that Plantation in New-England was the hopes of converting the poore Indians There were some Ministers of note and others who dealt first in that businesse and were prime actors in it that propounded that and really intended it as Mr White of Dorchester Mr Humphreys and I am forgetfull if I have not read some things printed to that purpose As for the worshipping God more purely if your words could bare that sense or you understood them of being freed of the Ceremonies and of Episcopall government that was some part of the designe and ayme though not meerely that but if by worshipping God more purely be meant the worshipping God in the Church-way and the Church-government pleaded for in this Apology it was not in the thoughts of them who were the first movers in it or of the Ministers who were sent over in the beginning as is apparent by a Letter of Mr Cottons sent to Mr Skelton a Minister upon his falling into the Church-way after he came over wherein Mr Cotton writes to him that he went from England of another judgement and tells him how this came about namely from them of New-Plymouth who were Mr Robinsons people and further unto many who went over to New-England after the first and second yeare there were other invitements then meerely worshipping God more purely some of them concluding peremptorily this Kingdome would be destroyed and there would be a hiding place as also the great commendations of the Countrey and Land for subsistence many being low in their estates here led many into a fooles paradâ—…ce who finding all things so contrary to the high reports given out and their expectations have had leisure enough to repent since And some of you who to my knowledge intended for New-England yet when you came to understand better what a hard Countrey it was would not be of the number of them whose sincerity should be testified before all the world and unto all generations to come by going to New-England to worship God more purely when to allure you thither there was no other invitement And now after all this large narration of your falling off from the dark part and of your inquiring into the light part and the story of your impartial looking upon the word of Christ and of your consulting with reformed Churches and looking upon the old Non-conformists and observing the Separatists together with the examples of New-England you plainely come in the close of this Section to declare that for which all this was written namely to possesse the Reader of your freedome and un-ingagement notwithstanding all this to take that way or every thing in each way that was truth whereas you would insinuate that other men who differ from you were not so free nor un-engaged But how likely this is and how un-ingaged and free you were I desire the Reader to remember what presumption if not proofes I have already brought to proove the contrary As for those two Parenthesis brought in of the way of New-England namely those improved to a better Edition and greater refinement by all the fore-montioned helps and that all which we looke upon as reformed Churches To the first of these I say 1. It is a high confidence and presumption to judge the wayes and practises of a few in New-England to be better and more refined then of all the reformed Churches in Christendome 2. What ever the Edition and refinement of New-England is they made little use of all the forementioned helps named by you to attaine unto it few of them consulted with reverence the reformed Churches c. But the maine ground of their improvement to this new Edition and great refinement as you terme it was their consultation with them of New-Plymouth as appeares both by Mr Cottons Letter and by other relations To the second I can judge no other reason of inserting it here nor of calling the way of New-England in that first Parenthesis a better Edition and greater refinement then of any of the reformed Churches but onely that we may understand in what sense you took that part of the Covenant to be brought to agreement with the best reformed Churches that you meant and accounted New-England the best reformed Churches and so satisfie your consciences in taking that branch of the Covenant whereas we looke upon the reformed Churches those of France Scotland Holland c. who are
to your practises your Churches are many yeares without them that a man cannot tell when he hath a reall testimony what you hold or how long you have held it And as for that other reall testimony as you had occasion offering to receive some of ours whom ye knew godly that came to visit you when you were in exile upon that relation fellowship and com-membership they held in their Parish-churches in England 1. 'T is no reall testimony because you oâ—…red it but doe not say you performed it 2. If you had actually performed it it is no such reall testimony of the truth of our Churches and ministery but of your own rather into the communion whereof they were received 3. Still their admission was founded upon that distinction of Implicit Churches as appeares by your following words For you would admit them upon such termes as you would gaine a principle of your own by them get more by it then communion with you was worth namely that such who were known to be godly might not come to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper unlesse they were members of some particular Congregation and so in their partaking with you they must yeeld that grand Brownisticall principle the foundation of other errors among the Separatists namely that Sacraments belong not to visible believers but as they are members of some particular Congregation As also you put them upon a practice and order never required by example or precept in the Scriptures And let me intreat you in your reply you give to this answer to give me a Scripture to prove that all men who come to the Lords Supper must professe their member-ship and their retaining to such a particular Congregation I professe my selfe of another judgement and cast the glove to any of you five or to you all That it is lawfull for the Ministers of Christ to receive such whom they know to be godly to the Lords Supper though they be not members of a particular Church and to receive those who are members without any professing themselves to be so Suppose some godly Merchants or Marriners who all their dayes travell and never stay long in any one place yet in all places where they come desire to joyne in the ordinances ought not such to be received The standing rule of comming to the Lords Supper will be found to be faith and godlinesse shown forth rather then the formality of membership But deale ingeniously doe you tell us here all that you required of the godly that came to visit you or doe you tell us only a part which question I the rather propound because as you doe relate in other parts of this Narration as in the eighth page so I find Mr Batchelour one of you writing from Rotterdam of your Churches that they will not keepe back the Sacrament from any of the godly of such Churches in England as Mr Goodwins and Mr Calamyes are alwayes provided that their own Pastours doe consent unto it Now the godly who are gone into Holland and especially to New-England not finding any such word in Scripture of bringing a ticket from their Ministers and so comming into those Countreyes without it may be long kept from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper till they either goe into England and fetch it or till they send for it over and have a returne back of the consent of their own Pastors which may be was the reason that though you offered to receive into the Communion of the Lords Supper some godly that came to visit you in your exile yet for want of bringing their Pastors consent unto it returned into England without partaking in the Lords Supper with you Which by the way will be a good warning for all that henceforth goe over into Holland or New-England to carry their Ministers consents over with them least otherwise they be not admitted to the Lords Supper and that you doe not deale plainely with us in this relation of admitting the godly in the Parish Churches of England into the Communion of the Lords Supper with you but there is some reservation and evasion I much doubt because the known godly in the Parish-church of Coleman-street which amongst Parish-churches is one of your true Churches in England cannot be admitted to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper by vertue of their relation of membership they hold in the Parish-church never since their Pastor fell into your Church-way As for your publike and avowed declarations to this purpose which many hundreds can witnesse I never heard of any of them in any publike meetings though I have been in many nor in any Sermons you have preacht though I have heard of many things you preacht which you are like to heare of in this Answer But if I may speake what I have heard there hath been a Narrative promised from you of what you hold which many Ministers also can witnesse but was never performed by you till this day As to that in the close of this Section that some of your brethren in their printed books doe candidly testifie for you It is but one of them not some unlesse you take in Mr Herles Imprimatur to your Apologie who I doubt not before this time by what he hath heard from some of his bretheren of the Assembly and seen in that book intituled Reformation of Church-government in Scotland with the contents of the Letters from some Churches beyond the seas besides the light this Answer will give will see easily how by your courting of him he was surprized And it is no wonder that Mr Herle Mr Channell with some other men of worth having lived somewhat remote and having not been much conversant with you and your distinctions might be at first mistaken with such good words and solemne professions And as we alwayes held this respect unto our own Churches in this Kingdome so we received and were entertained with the like from those reformed Churches abroad among whom we were cast to live wee both mutually gave and received the right hand of fellowship which they on their parts abundantly manifested by the very same characters and testimonies of difference which are proper to their own orthodox Churches and whereby they use to distinguish them from all those Sects which they tollerate but not owne and all the assemblies of them which yet now we are here some would needs ranke us with granting to some of us their own Churches or publike places for worship to assemble in where themselves met for the worship of God at differing houres the same day As likewise the priviledge of ringing a publike Bell to call unto our meetings Which we mention because it is amongst them made the great signall of difference between their own allowed Churches and all other assemblies unto whom it is strictly prohibited and forbidden as Guiciardine hath long since observed And others of us found such acceptance with them that in testimony thereof they allowed a full and
in the Primitive Apostolicall Churches then they will be no additaments or if some of those things alleadged by you be of the nature of circumstances in the point of government and order or according to the rules of the law of nature and the rules of common prudence agreeable also to the generall rules of the word then they are not truly by you called additaments and super-additions for it is one thing to adde to the word of God and his worship and another thing from generall rules of the word and common principles of the light of nature and prudence considering the differences of times places persons dispensations of guifts to explicate and determine of many things in the administration of the visible Church Now of things of this kind something must be which the word of God presupposes or else you can have no setled government in the Church and you may as well stile set Catechismes confessions of Faith reading of Chapters translated by others singing of Psalmes between Chapters and after Sermons preaching constantly upon Texts of Scripture giving thanks after eating meat c. additaments as some of the things instanced in by you And let me hint this to you which I know you understand well enough but forget it often to paralell it with other passages that in your practise of the administration of the Sacraments and in other parts of worship you adde severall things besides what is recorded of Christ or the Apostles practise or given particularly in any precept which I speake not to blame such practises but to minde you such things are not fitly stiled additaments To the third that you have made additaments and superadditions and that in more materiall things then the reformed Churches being your selves guilty of what you accuse them this being the strongest plea and the only plea to speake of in all your book by way of Argument the rest being bare narrations I shall make good against you by particular instances the prooving of which practises of yours from Apostolicall directions must rest upon you who doe them and in so doing have departed from your selves and other reformed Churches amongst many particulars take these following To the Ministeriall preaching and dispensation of the word you subjoyned prophesying by the people 2. To the power of government by the Officers of the Church you have added the power of the people 3. In joyning in particular Congregations you did super-adde the Church-covenant 4. To the Pastour you super-adde the Teacher as a necessary distinct Officer from him and so necessary as in one of your Churches you had two Teachers and have been some yeares without a Pastour at all which is a sad condition for people to be without a Sheapheard 5. To the Deacon you added the Church-widdow as a distinct Officer and as necessary for the perpetuall government of the Church 6. To our Parochiall Assemblies in England which you call in the sixt page the true Churches and body of Christ and abhorre the thought of counting them Antichristian where you say you hold communion as with true Churches you have super-added and erected new-Churches 7. To our Ministery of the Parochiall Assemblies which is true also by your own confession and not Antichristian you have superinstituted and superinducted another Ministery any one of which particulars to be laid downe in the Primitive patterne I professedly deny and it rests upon you who allow what reformed Churches practise but in the particulars instanced and many more doe practise over and above what the reformed Churches doe to make evident and demonstrate upon cleare grounds especially when men set up a new way and leave the practise of all reformed Churches double light being required for separation in any kind whereas single light sufficeth for any man continuing in his standing And certainly of all other things in the matter of practise in the visible Church the medling with the keyes of the kingdome of God both in doctrine and discipline with the withdrawing and forsaking the true Churches of Christ and the Ministerie thereof wherein men have been converted and built up and have converted and built-up so many with the setting up of new Churches against the leave and will of the civill Magistrate without the consent of those Churches departed from and to the scandall and griefe of so many godly Ministers and Christians nay the scandall of all Reformed Churches and all this under pretence of spirituall power and liberty purchased for them by Christ had need have a cleare and full proofe and not be built only upon such weake and slight grounds as flattering similitudes witty allusions remote consequences strained and forced Interpretations from hard and much controverted Scriptures And now by what I have alreadie answered to this Principle in these three particulars let the indifferent Reader and your owne consciences be judge whether you or the Reformed Churches practise most safely and doe that which most Churches acknowledge warrantable and who is most guilty of making additaments when as you and all of your way allow that which they practise in the seven particulars instanced in but you practise many things which all Churches condemne excepting the Churches of the Independent way and if one thing be considered to what I have said that you put the weight and stampe of divine Institution and of necessitie upon your additaments making them parts of worship and essentiall as upon prophecying as upon the office of teachers distinct from Pastours c. but the Reformed Churches in what you call their additaments even in some of them instanced in by you put not so great an authoritie but only an allowance and lawfulnesse of set-formes of prayer prescribed not a necessity but a lawfulnesse of mixtures in Congregations so as not to leave the Church for that and in other practises you count additaments in matters circumstantiall of time place manner and way of doing things which upon good reasons may be changed so that here is a wide difference between that which you call their additaments and yours truly so called and let me adde this that the great pinch of a conscience and the poyson in Ecclesiasticall matters concerning outward Government and order wherein the Scripture hath not laid downe a particular rule for lyes in the stampe of putting a necessitie and a divine Institution upon them and unto such and of such is that Scripture spoken so frequently in the mouthes of men of your way In vaine doe you worship me teaching for doctrine the commandements of men For instance whereas one great controversie of these times is about the qualification of the Members of Churches and the promiscuous receiving and mixture of good and bad therein we chose the better part and to be sure received in none but such as all the Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull And yet in this we are able to make this true and just profession
also that the rules which we gave up our judgements unto to judge those we received in amongst us by were of that latitude as would take in any member of Christ the meanest in whom there may be supposed to be the least of Christ and indeed such and no other at all the godly in this kingdome carry in their bosomes to judge others by We tooke measure of no mans holinesse by his opinion whether concurring with us or adverse unto us And Churches made up of such we were sure no Protestant could but approve of as touching the members of it to be a true Church with which communion might be held And having answered generally I come now to the particulars brought to make this third principle good and shall shew how little there is in them to make good that they are brought for To your first instance of chusing the better part and to be sure receiving in none for members of Churches but such as all Churches in the world would by the ballance of the Sanctuarie acknowledge faithfull 1. To speake nothing now of that how in Churches there may be a receiving to some of the ordinances and so to be under the care of the Ministers a receiving of others that is there may be members to a part and there are members as to all the ordinances and so according to the first there may be a promiscuous receiving and mixture for which I can give good reasons and instances as in children catechumenists but must not handle at large every point now which your Narration hints aâ—… 2. In your admission of members you chose not the better part nor the safer To goe on the hand of charitie and love is the better part and safer hand which charitie if you looke into the 1 Cor. 13. hopes the best thinkes no evill c. And a man had better receive some of whom there may be some doubt and feare then discourage and refuse any of Christ little ones which both your principle and practise hath done abundantly in New-England and in England But here in your Narration you deale fallaciously in stating the question For the question is not about receiving in none but such as all Churches in the world would acknowledge faithfull but about receiving in all and refusing none whom the Churches had no reason but to acknowledge faithfull For according to your words laid downe and as you would carry it to deceive the Reader with of receiving none but such as all Churches would acknowledge faithfull you might receive in but a few of high forme Christians whom also all the Churches in the world would not as some hold the ballance acknowledge to be faithfull and so you might receive in but a very few And it is evident by your practise that many whom all the Reformed Churches hold fit to be received having a competent knowledge of God Christ and themselves and live free from all scandalous and grosse sins and outwardly practise duties both to God and man even multitudes of these you will not admit nor doe not into your Churches And as to that just and true profession you are able to make That the rules you gave up your judgements unto to judge those you received in amongst you by were of that latitude to take in any member of Christ c. I must tell you this is like some of your just and true professions before namely unjust and untrue this is neither the first nor the last unjust and untrue profession in your Narration and I shall make it good both by your practises by some rules laid down by some of your selves Mr Goodwins letter in answer to Mr Iohn Goodwin grants they require of men to admission into their Churches that they know what belongs to Church-fellowship and doe acknowledge the same and approve thereof with other things of that nature now whether this be a rule of that latitude that will take in any member of Christ the meanest in whom there may be supposed to be the least of Christ and indeed such and no other as all the godly in this kingdome carry in their bosomes to judge others by I appeale to your owne consciences That holy Martyr Bradford with many more not only the least but great starres in the firmament of the Church never knew nor dreamt of what belong'd to your Church-fellowship and I am confident that M. Goodwin M. Bridge my selfe with many others many yeares after wee were members of Christ and conversed together in Cambridge as Saints yet understood not what belonged to this Church-covenant and Church-fellowship and this is such a rule that multitudes of the godly in this kingdome carry not in their bosomes to judge others by nor would not themselves be judged by nor never heard of such things till your times And if your rules were of such a latitude as would take in any members of Christ the meanest whence came it to passe that in New-England so many men in whom the godly have presumed to be something of Christ and who are you to judge the contrarie have not yet been admitted and amongst many other instances that might be given in your owne Churches I will name one Mistris Symonds a modest humble woman many years well reputed of in England of godly Parents wife to a godly Minister who though her husband was received a member of M. Sympsons Church and then chosen the Pastour yet his wife could not be received into the Church along time and whether yet she be I know not I have been told also from one who lived in those parts that after M. Sympson upon rending from M. Bridge had set up a new Church one who was upon his tryall for admission into M. Sympsons Church was openly asked by a prime man who had a hand in that rent what his judgement was of the Brethrens libertie to prophecie and if the man had not been right in that point it might have hazarded his Membership And that the Reader may not be abused nor amused with such kind of passages but that it may appeare what ever here you say you have other rules and require other things of men to communion with you pray satisfie us What was the reason and what is the matter that when M. Iohn Goodwin fell to your principles and way so many godly persons of his owne Parish could not be received in by him as Church-members nor accounted so without yeelding to some rules and conditions which they being members of Christ and some of them nâ—…ne of the meanest could not condescend unto As to that you say You tooke measure of no mans holinesse by his opinion whether concurring with you or adverse unto you I appeale to your consciences if my selfe or some others whom you have accounted godly should have declared their opinions adverse to your Church-covenant and other of your Church principles and yet being in Holland should have desired for the time to have been
Churches allow particular Congregations such an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders within themselves and wherein not such a particular Narration would have carried in the face of it some ground for the defference of their practise and allowance might have served to have pointed out the differences between your way and theirs But secondly As you relate the way and discipline of the reformed Churches it sounds somewhat harsh and strange that their practise should be one way and their judgements another their practise to governe each particular Congregation by a combined Presbyterie of the Elders of severall Congregations united in one for government and yet in their judgements to allow especially in some cases a particular Congregation and entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within it selfe Doe they practise one way and allow another way or doe they hold both wayes the wayes of God or what is it you meane in this Narration of those Churches or can it be meant in the same sense and acception to practise one thing and yet allow another or will you make the lesser matters practised in their particular Churches by their own Elders to be the same with some cases wherein they allow particular Congregations an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves Now the latter namely in some cases cannot be meant for then this last part is no more then the first neither can your words of an entire compleate power of jurisdiction in the particular Congregations be meant of smaller matters but of the greatest matters in some cases You shall doe well in your reply to english these lines about the difference of the reformed Churches practises in greater matters and their different judgements in some cases and shew us in what sense they meane it and whether it can be properly and truly alledged for your case of entire and compleate power in your Congregations Thirdly This which you here relate of the reformed Churches practise and allowance is fallaciously set downe and for your own advantage meerely to make out this third principle that you still chose to practise safely namely what the reformed Churches allowed and acknowledged warrantable onely they superadded Presbyteriall combinations whereas the reformed Churches doe not as you well know in the case and question controverted between them and you allow particular Congregations in a Kingdome and nation conceiving the reformed Religion to have an entire and compleate power of jurisdiction within themselves what may be in some of their books in extraordinary or speciall cases where there is but one particular Congregation in a Countrey or the like that is nothing to the point in hand it being laid for a common ground by them all that every particular Church in a Nation or Kingdom is not to be left to it selfe but that there is a necessity of a common nationall government to preserve all the Churches in unity and peace And to cleare the reformed Churches of France Holland Scotland from what you say they allow I doe not find in their books of discipline and platformes of Church government by which we must judge of their judgements nor in their practises that they doe allow an entire and compleate power to be exercised by the Elders of every Congregation alone either in the making or ordaining of Ministers or in deposing their Ministers or in drawing up a forme of doctrine worship and discipline for themselves they allow power of admonition suspension from the Lords Supper and of taking up lesser differences by the particular Eldership and if I forget not the Churches of France only practise excommunication by the Elders in particular Congregations without carrying it at first higher but then if we consider that in those Churches of France their Elderships goe upon certaine fixed rules in there excommunications laid down in their books of discipline who if they proceed otherwise are liable to censure themselves and their being appeales to Synods and Assemblies and all being carried in reference and dependance to Assemblies the case is very different now if the Churches of your way and communion in old England and in New would yeeld to have a government fixt and setled by Synods and Assemblies establisht also by the Magistrates upon which Rules and Orders they should proceed in the way of making Ministers and that such errors in doctrine and such evill manners ought to be the subject of excommunication and then agree upon appeales to Synods and Assemblies then there would be lesse dangâ—…r in such an entire and compleate power in particular Congregations To the second particular under this first head namely what some of the old non-conformists grant placing the power of excommunication in the Eldership of each particular Church untill they doe miscarry and then indeed subjâ—…cting them to Presbytâ—…riall and Provinciall Assemblies and that it could not be infallibly prooved that any of the Churches recorded in the new Testament were so numerous as necessarily to exceed the limits of one particular Congregatïon And that both the Ministers of the reformed Churches and our non-conformists all granted that there should be severall Elders in every Congregation who had power over them in the Lord I answer as followes For Mr Cartwright you not quoting which of his books you have reference to and so not knowing which to turne to to find out what you assert of him I shall not deny it but as for Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall which is the only booke I ever heard of wherein he handles these points he doth in the third question give the Ecclesiasticall power and the exercise of it to a united multitude of Presbyters in which booke howsoever as intending his booke against Diocesan Bishops and Diocesan Churches to whom all Presbyters and Churches stand in subjection and subordination he pleads against them for the power of the particular Elders in the severall Congregations yet as against the reformed Churches practise namely of a Presbyteriall Church consisting of many particular Congregations and ruled by the Elders of severall Congregations combined he pleadeth not but expressely in answer made to those two objections from the Churches and Elders where there is a co-ordination and a communiâ—…y in government as in the Low Countries and at Géneva he grants the thing contended for against your Congregationall way even before miscarrying and shewes thâ—… great difference between the Diocesan government and the Presbyteriall in severall particulars and answers your objections which you commonly make of a forraigne extrinsicall power And for your better satisfaction reade and compare together the passages in these pages of Mr Baynes Diocesans Tryall page 21 page 11. What is meant by a Diocesan Church and in the 12th page two first conclusions agreed in and in the 16th page And for the non-conformists in their writings against the Episcopall government and Diocesan Churches though they put the Bishops their adversaries all they could to it to make them proove
a particular Church exceeding the number of them who may ordinarily meet together in one place for the worshipping of God and the sanctification of the Lords-day which if it can be proved overthrowes M. Robinsons M. Cottons definitions of Churcheâ—… and your principles who all keepe to this as to a foundation upon which is built many of your other practises For we know at first the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches were not more numerous then to exceed the limits of one particular Congregation neither could it be expected that all should come in at first and we know for many other Churches the Scriptures doe not so particularly relate the growth and accessions of them But if any one instance can be given it is not materiall whether first or last sooner or later whether in the beginning middle or end of the story for then your Positions and assertions of a particular visible Church are overthrowne for one affirmative overthrowes a universall negative And I aske of you whether you take ordinarily here as opposed to extraordinary or take ordinarily for commonly as opposed to rarely and seldome now if you meane it in the first sence that the Church of Ierusalem and other Churches that may be instanced in their case was extraordinary and though the Apostles suffered them to grow so ranke and numerous yet we may not doe so now I desire to know of you then what is become of your first generall rule the Primitive patternes of Churches erected by the Apostles and I desire to know what râ—…le you walke by and whether the first constituted Church of all were not likely to be the patterne for constituted Churches seeing Primum in unoquoque genere est regula mensura reliquorum But if you meane ordinarily in the second sence as that there is but one only instance the most if not all other Churches were otherwise that you see will not by what I have above written helpe you besides what ever you can probably alleadge that the Churches of these times should be conformed to such Churches which consisted of no greater number then to make one particular Congregation I will give more and better why the Churches of a Nation and kingdome should be conformed to that of Hierusalem As for those phrases of yours which you bring in by way of caution and clearing the way of your government within your selves that you claime not an Independent power to give no account or be subject to none others but onely a full and entire power compleate within your selves untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely Whilest in these first lines you denie Independent power in words yet in your latter words you grant it claiming a full and entire power compleate within your selves which is Independent power and is the full sence of that which hath been fasten'd on you by us and I will shew it more fully in the proper place when I come to the 23. page especially if you take upon you to enjoy it so long untill you shall be challenged to erre grossely I had thought it had been enough upon your being challenged to erre to have given an account but belike it must be erring grossely I suspect something lyes under this as under many other of your phrases whereby you evade and hide your selves stating points wrongfully Pray what doe you account erring grossely and whether doe you judge any thing erring grosly in your particular Churches but such kinds of sins in manners and such kind of opinions as are against the Churches knowne light and the common received practises and principles of Christianitie professed by the Churches themselves and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches and no other sinnes to be the ground of giving an account as they are not of Excommunication with you page 9. both being of equall latitude sins of particular persons to a Church and the sins of a particular Church to a Communitie of Churches and if that be your meaning you shall be Independent enough And then further I demand of you how you can use those phrases of not claiming a power to be subject to none others I confesse you may better use those words of giving account holding counselling and advising by sister-Churches but as for that phrase of subjecting to none others I understand it not what censure will your Churches subject unto from other Churches will they yeeld to the deposition of their Ministers Excommunication of their members c. or how can there be any subjection to other Churches in your principles the phrase being taken properly and usually when as all along you pleade against authoritative Presbyteriall power so oft exprest in page 15 16. and is the great point in controversie in this instance betwixt you and the Presbyterians How oft doe you denie the subjection of a particular Church to all other Churches and are against all subjecting to censures yea to be subjected as to counsell and advices from the other Churches As to that phrase your owne Elders whereof you had three at least in each Congregation whom you were subject to in which you seeme to hold out the government and power of the Church to lie in the Elders and not in the body of the Congregation I desire you to satisfie me in this point whether all of you hold the power and authoritie to be in the Elders or in the Church and whether by goe tell the Church is meant tell the Elders or the bodie of the Congregation and whether according to the principles of the Church-way in M. Robinsons workes and the bookes of New-England and M. Bridges owne letter unlesse some of you have lately seene another light you might have truly written three Elders at least in every Congregation to whom the Congregations were subject or else three Elders who were subject to their owne Congregations and this shall suffice for answer to the first head of the five concerning the third Instance To the second head under this third instance what you are not satisfied in nor cannot allow 1. About particular visible Churches That you could not imagine in every City where the Apostles came the number of the converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations 2. About the government of it that it should be the institution of Christ or his Apostles that the combination of the Elders of many Churches should be the first compleate and entire seat of Church power over each Congregation so combined or that they could challenge and assume that authoritie over those Churches they teach not c. In both these you deale fallaciously and relate the controversie to your advantage and our disadvantage For the first whereas had you dealt ingenuously your words should have been these for that in any Citie where the Apostles came the number of converts did or should arise to such a multitude as to make severall and sundry Congregations you
be most willing to have recourse unto for our parts we saw not then nor doe yet see And likewise we did then suppose and doe yet that this principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto other Churches offended together with this other that it is a command from Christ enjoyned to Churches that are finally offended to pronounce such a sentence of non-communion and withdrawing from them whilest impenitent ac unworthy to hold forth the Name of Christ these principles being received and generally acknowledged by the Churches of Christ to be a mutuall duty as strictly enjoyned them by Christ as any other that these would be as effectuall meanes through the blessing of Christ to awe and preserve Churches and their Elders in their duties as that other of claime to an authoritative power Ecclesiasticall to excommunicate other Churches or their Elders offending For if the one be compared with the other in a meere Ecclesiasticall notion that of Excommunication pretended hath but this more in it That it is a delivering of whole Churches and their Elders offending unto Satan for which we know no warrant in the Scriptures that Churches should have such a power over other Churches And then as for the binding obligation both of the one way and the other it can be supposed to lye but in these two things First In a warrant and injunction given by Christ to his Churches to put either the one or the other into execution And secondly That mens consciences be accordingly taken therewith so as to subject themselves whether unto the one way or the other For suppose that other principle of an authoritative power in the greater part of Churches combined to excommunicate other Churches c. to be the ordinance of God yet unlesse it doe take hold of mens consciences and be received amongst all Churches the offending Churches will steight all such excommunications as much as they may be supposed to doe our way of protestation and sentence of non-communion On the other side let this way of ours be but as strongly entertained as that which is the way and command of Christ and upon all occasions be heedfully put in execution it will awe mens consciences as much and produce the same effects And if the Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld doe but assist and back the sentence of other Churches denouncing this non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime as they judge meet and as they would the sentence of Churches excommunicating others Churches in such cases vpon their owne particular iudgement of the cause then without all controversie this our way of Church proceeding will bee every way as effectuall as their other can be supposed to be and we are sure more brotherly and morâ—… suited to that liberty and equality Christ hath endowed his Churches with But without the Magistrates interposing their authority their way of proceeding will be as ineffectuall as ours and more liable to contempt by how much it is pretended to be more authoritative and to inflict a more dreadfull punishment which carnall spirits are seldome sensible of This for our judgements And for a reall evidence and demonstration both that this was then our judgements as likewise for an instance of the effectuall successe of such a course held by Churches in such cases our own practise and the blessing of God thereon may plead and testifie for us to all the world The manage of this transaction in briefe was this That Church which with others was most scandalized did by Letters declare their offence requiring of the Church supposed to be offending in the Name and for the vindication of the honour of Christ and the relieving the party wronged to yeeld a full and publike hearing before all the Churches of our Nation or any other whomsoever offended of what they could give in charge against their proceedings in that deposition of their Minister and to subject themselves to an open triall and review of all those forepassed carriages that concerned that particular which they most chearfully and readily according to the forementioned principles submitted unto in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authority either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced them thereunto And accordingly the Ministers of the Church offended with other two Gentlemen of much worth wisedome and piety members thereof were sent as messengers from that Church and at the introduction and intrance into that solemne assembly the solemnity of which hath left as deepe an impression upon our hearts of Christs dreadfull presence as ever any we have been present at it was openly and publikely prosessed in a speech that was the preface to that discussion to this effect that it was the most to be abhorred maxime that any religion hath ever made profession of and therefore of all other the most contradictory and dishonourable unto that of Christianity that a single and particular society of men professing the Name of Christ and pretending to be endowed with a power from Christ to judge them that are of the same body and society within themselves should further arrogate unto themselves an exemption from giving account or being censurable by any other either Christian Magistrates above them or neighbour Churches about them So farre were our judgements from that independent liberty that is imputed to us then when we had least dependency on this Kingdom or so much as hopes ever to abide therein in peace And for the issue and successe of this agitation after there had been for many dayes as judiciary and full a charge tryall and deposition of witnesses openly afore all commers of all sorts as can be expected in any Court where authority enjoynes it that Church which had offended did as publikely acknowledge their sinfull aberration in it restored their Minister to his place againe and ordered a solemne day of fasting to humble themselves afore God and men for their sinfull carriage in it and the party also which had been deposed did acknowledge to that Church wherein he had likewise sinned In this part of your Apologie are contained the fourth and fifth of those five forementioned heads unto which I referred all I should answer to what you say upon your third and last instance about the government and discipline in the Churches The scope of which fourth head is to answer and take off a common objection brought against your way the strength of which answer is made up of those parts and stands in these particulars First In laying downe your own principles which you hold in such a case Secondly Your practise according to those principles occasioned upon an offence committed in one of your Churches which story you briefly relate Thirdly The successe and effectualnesse of your practise according to your principles illustrated by an instance Now for that common
exception laid into all mens thoughts against your Congregationall way it 's both a just and strong Argument against it and that which many of your way when it hath been objected to them have confessed there is no remedy nor help in such cases but advice and counsell all must be left to Christ Christ will take care of his own way they had not found out this allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages which you have here propounded but I shall labour to make evident that all you bring by way of answer in declaration of your judgements and practise doth not satisfie this objection And first for your judgements in the principles you hold and lay downe I shall endeavour to prove that you have no Scripture grounds nor Primitive patterns for such principles and such a way in such cases Secondly Besides that these principles have no footing in Scripture and so they are no allowed remedy for miscarriages c. are not nor will not be a sufficient remedy for miscarriages nor reliefe for wrongfull sentences nor powerfull effectuall meanes to reduce a Church c. For the first I shall take it for granted you being wise men that in such a point as this being the maine point of difference betwen you and the Presbterians and at such a time as this you would bring the strongest Scriptures and grounds you had for your sacred principle and supreame law to be observed among all Churches namely of submission of Churchrs and for that other principle of pronouncing that heavy sentence of non-communion against a Church or Churches and if I can shew the invalidity and weaknesse of these brought by you a man may conclude ther 's no feare of what 's behind Now a man would wonder that wise men as you are should except against a government received so generally amongst the reformed Churchâ—…s and blessed so from Heaven in the effectualnesse of it for the space of so many yeares as a sufficient remedy not only to reduce men from heresies and schisme but to prevent Churches from falling into heresie schisme c. which is more and goe set up a new way so different and so distastfull to the reformed Churches and all upon pretences of no sound proofe in Scripture for such a government because there is not an Apostolicall direction either in example or precept for it and in the meane time to contend for such a government wherein yourselves cannot deny but hath fallen out strange miscarriages and you tell us an unhappy story for proofe and yet the way and course you have substituted for remedy hath neither example nor precept in the word of God to practise any title of all that you relate to us and besides that the course prescribed by you is not commanded in the word it is no whit so rationall nor conducible to the ends you appoint it for as we will shew presently Now for the Scriptures brought by you the first is 1 Cor. 10. 32. Give none offence neither to the Iewes nor to the Gentiles nor to the Church of God where first the Reader may observe you alter the text putting Churches of God instead of Church of God and then you adde they live amongst The alteration I suppose you make upon this ground for feare this text in the reading of it should hint that truth how the visible Church in Scripture is taken for more then one particular Congregation the addition they live amongst to make it a seeming ground for Churches in a vicinitie whereas the Apostle speakes of the Church of God generally all the Churches whether we live amongst them or farre from them and the scope of the Apostle in this place is upon the occasion of that particular offence which might arise to some Corinthians from eating meat sacrificed to Idols having been told that this is sacrificed to Idols to lay down a generall rule to all Christians against giving offence to any whether Jewes Gentiles or Christians under which three ranks all men then in those times were comprehended Now pray tell me how will you make this text to prove that Churches offending and distering among themselves must submit themselves to the most full and open triall and examination of other neighbour Churches offended and how will you from this place draw ouâ—… a power for neighbour Churches to send unto and require this of the Churches who have offended them This Scripture if all Interpreters understand it that I have consulted with layes downe a rule that every particular Christian and so all Christians must so walke as to become all things to all men to please all men in all things lawfull as the 33 verse interprets it and to give none offence But where doth this Scripture speake and how doth it affirme that if either Churches or particular Christians doe practise things that offend other Churches they who are offended have power and authority to send to them and to call them to the most full and open triall and examination and that such who are challenged to offend must submit to such a judiciall and open triall before all commers In this text there is no more said of the Church of God then of the Jews and Gentiles who must not be offended neither and will you allow Jewes and Gentiles offended by things done in your Churches to call your Churches to an account and you must submit This text reaches to Churches that live in other Countries and unto particular Christians though they be not members of any such instituted Church as you speake of so that by vertue of this text we ought to give them no offence but will you grant that Churches of other Countries and Kingdomes may call Churches in another Kingdome to an open triall and examination and send their messengers to question them and thereupon pronounce sentence of renouncing all Christian communion with them or that every particular man offended may call Churches to an account and they are bound to submit to hearing and tryall I will give you one instance I am much offended at the great rent and difference that was betwixt Mr Bridge and Mr Simpson and at Mr Simpsons setting up a new Church and at all that great bitternesse betwixt those Churches and I am much offended at the Church of Arnheim for letting passe that schisme and all those differences never questioning it especially questioning Mr Bridges Church Now have I a power by vertue of this precept to call both you and your Churches to an account and to require of you a most full and open tryall before all commers and are you bound to submit to it answer me this question in your Reply and you shall see what I will say to you in my Rejoinder For that other Scripture 1 Tim. 5. 22. Neither be partakers of othâ—… mens sinnes that is spoken to Timothy in regard of his authoritative power in the Church of God as the scope of the chapter and the immediate precedent words shew
right and as Magistrates have no power over Family-government to appoint whom I shall admit into my Family c. much lesse have they power over Christs Family this union of a Church is a spirituall right which is transcendently out of the sphere of the Magistrates authoritie and the Apostles taught the Saints to doe it without asking leave of the Magistrates yea not to for sake it though the Magistrates forbad it Heb. 10. 25. Now I beleeve you cannot show me any principle in Presbyteriall Government nor quote me the judgement of any Presbyterian that cuts short the power of the Orthodox Protestant Magistrate about Congregations and Assemblies as this doth 4. The Presbyterians doe grant the Magistrate a power about the publick exercise of the Ministerie that 't is so farre subject to the direction of the Magistrate that without his approbative authoritie or confirming authoritie or his toleration of it it ought not by the Church to be publikely begun in his territories nor practised Apollonius of Zeland who writ an answer to Vedellius by the command of the Waâ—…achrian Classis was a great Presbyterian and in that answer must needs show it upon occasion of Vedelius giving so much to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things yet he grants the Magistrate this power about the exercise of the Ministerie Now whether your principles allow this to the Magistrate let your practises speake about your making Ministers and exercising of it as you doe 5. The Presbyterians grant to the Magistrates a power in private meetings as well as in publicke Churches over exercises there as well as those in the publick places So Voetius We reject that noveltie of the Remonstrants that the Magistrate hath no power in private meetings but onely in publike Temples Now whether you allow the Magistrates a power concerning your private meetings or onely over the publike meetings or whether you doe not with the Arminians make the ground of this power in the Magistrate the granting of a publike meeting-place I desire to be satisfied from you But by all this the Reader may see in these particulars you doe not give more power to the Magistrate for the Presbyterians give what you give and not onely so but they give that which you denie and so give more then you But Brethren wherein and in what doe you give more to the Magistrates power then the Presbyterians Had you exprest wherein the Presbyterians give too little to the Magistrates power and in what their principles are defective and wherein you give more you had dealt fairely and ingeniously and a man might have knowne where to have had you and how to have answered you but to accuse thus in the generall and not to signifie the crime is not just but as you do throughout your Apologie under the figge-leaves of darke doubtfull generall speeches cover your opinions least your nakednesse should appeare so in this place but not to let you goe away thus but that I may drive you out of your holes and thickets and divest you of your coverings and that I may a little take off the Odium and suspition that Presbyteriall Government may lie under amongst many who know not their principles by reason of this passage of yours The Magistrates power to which we give as much and as we thinke more then the principles of the Presbyteriall government will suffer them to yeeld I will propound some questions to you to draw out what you hold about the power of the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things and to give some further light for the present of the Presbyterian principles concerning the power of Magistrates referving the particular laying downe what the Presbyterians give to the Magistrate in Ecclesiasticall things and what not till my Rejoynder shall come out to your Replie 1. Whether the power of the Magistrate about Ecclesiasticall things be a power extrinsecall objective coercive indirect mediate accidentall and consequent or spirituall intrinsecall formall proper and antecedent Now concerning the first the Presbyterians give as much to the Magistrate as you nay more as hath been partly shewed alreadie but for the other the spirituall intrinsecall formall c. If you ascribe that to the Magistrate as I thinke you doe not nor your principles do not yeeld it unlesse according to your second great principle laid downe in the 10. and 11. page you are since the Assembly to please the Parliament the more as you may imagine come off from your former judgement and practise I doe referre you for satisfaction to the three most learned select Disputations of Voetius and unto Waâ—…us excellent answer to the tractate of Uttengobardus so strong that the Authour could never reply againe though in a booke published he promised to doe it and unto Apollonius learned answer to Vedelius Dissertation 2. I aske of you whether the civill power doth containe the Ecclesiasticall formally and eminently so as that power can give and produce the other or whether there is an intrinsecall dependance of the Ecclesiasticall upon the Politicall in their nature forme and exercise of them or whether there doth not reside in the Church all Ecclesiasticall power absolutely necessarie to the building up of the Kingdome of Christ and salvation of men even when the Magistrate is not of the Church 3. I aske of you whether in writing this passage of your Apologie you considered and remembred all those differences and distinctions given by so many excellent Divines as Iunius Zanchius Amesius c. concerning those two powers Civill and Ecclesiasticall and their Administration and in particular amongst the rest that difference taken from their matter and the subject wherein they make the subject of politicall administration to be humane things and matters but of Ecclesiasticall to be divine and sacred and if so whether doe not Presbyterians according to those differences and distinctions which distinctions are acknowledged also by your selves as by M. Robinson and by some of you in your printed bookes as I remember give the Magistrate that power in Ecclesiasticals which is given him in the word of God 4. Considering all Ecclesiasticall power and right is commonly by Divines reduced to a three-fold head namely potestas 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which of these powers doe you give more to the Magistrates then the Presbyterians or in all of them doe you give more or doe you not For the present that power you seem to give the Magistrate and intimate it that you give more then the Presâ—…eriall principles allow as may be gathered from the following words in p. 19. from those words in p. 17. The Magistrates interposing a power of an other nature unto which we upon his particular coguizance and examination of such causes profes ever to submit and also to be most willing to have recourse unto must fall under the last head of the power of judging and determining in matters Ecclesiastical and that upon
Concerning which question it being a point that I have not much studied I shall not declare my judgement in it But in the Church of Israel it seemes that in the things of Jehovah the last judgement did belong to the chiefe Ecclesiasticall Assembly which sate at Ierusalem Deut. 17. 8 9 10 11 12 13 verses as Iunius in his Analisis illustrates that place and the arguments brought by Apollonius in this point with his answers to Vedelius arguments have a great deale of strength in them and I entreate you in your Reply if you will formally owne the giving of this power to the Magistrate that you will answer that second chapter of Apollonius But to draw toward a conclusion of the comparison of the effectualnesse between the two wayes supposing all you say of Submission Non-communion Protestation were true as also that you did give more to the Magistrate then the Presbyterian and that in spirituall matters in cases of difference injuries c. you would from the Church have recourse to the Magistrate and submit to his judgement and that you did allow and would stand to the Magistrates assisting and backing the sentence of non-communion against Churches miscarrying according to the nature of the crime as they judge meet notwithstanding you have determined it that without all controversie your way of Church proceeding will be every way as effectuall as the other can be supposed to be yet I must tell you it falls farre short of the Presbyterian way both in preventing and remedying sins errors offences and in promoting knowledge godlinesse and peace in the Churches For suppose non-communion of Churches were a way of Christ and a remedie the contrary to which I have at large showne yet you must confesse 't is but a lower remedy not an authoritative powererfull dreadfull remedie and meanes like that of excommunication which is the highest and greatest censure in the Church the Churches thunderbolt and Anathema a remedy and last meanes which recovers a sinner when all others will not as admonition suspension deposition and so when non-communion and Protestation will not In the Scriptures are laid downe many eminent fruits and effects of excommunication in the people of God which are not of any censure else and I might fill a book with the ends benefits and fruits of this censure laid down by Divines in their Tractates and common places of Ecclesiasticall discipline and excommunication but I will name only that of the Professors of Leyden Excommunication is the last remedie and the sharpest for the subduing of the flesh in a man and for the quickning of the spirit and the most efficacious example least the sound part should be corrupted But against them who persevere in their contumacie and impenitencie 't is the only meanes to free the house of God of leaven and the Church of Christ from scandals and so to vindicate the Word and Sacraments from prophanation and the Name of God from the blaspheming of them without Now pray shew us in the Scripture any where the excellent fruits benefits ends of non-communion of Churches and Protestation against them as we can of excommunication in 1 Cor. 5. 5. 2 Cor. 2. 6 7 8 9 10. 2 Thess. 3. 14. 1 Tim. 1. 20. And then for that other remedie of the Magistrates power added to non-communion to eeke out wherein non-communion may be defective to excommunication and for that purpose you say you give more to the Magistrates power that so what you faile and come short in Ecclesiasticall power you may make it up in giving more civill power in Ecclesiasticall causes the result of which must needs be this that though in your Church-way you have not so much Ecclesiasticall authoritative power for miscarriages and for reducing Churches that fall into heresie and schisme yet you give more civill power and allow the Magistrate more to interpose for helping and reducing so that lesse Ecclesiasticall power and authority with a large civill power to back it will be every way as effectuall as much Ecclesiasticall authority with a small civill power But of this I shall shew you your mistake because the question is of Church matters and matters of conscience and the inward man and of the Kingdom of Christ Now the remedies and meanes appointed for these are spirituall and Ecclesiasticall namely spirituall punishments Christ saith my Kingdom is not of this world and the Apostle 2 Cor. 10. 3 4 5. The weapons of our warfare are not carnall but mighty through God to the pulling downe of strong holds by which the spirit and the inward man even every thought is subjected to the obedience of Christ spirituall remedies and meanes must be used in the Kingdome of Christ and by them Christ doth his worke and hence in Ecclesiasticall discipline and those scandalls in the Church which is the point in hand punishments in the body or in the purse c. which can be by the power of the Magistrate have no place at all neither can such meanes which are of a different kind from the spirituall Kingdome of Christ produce those effects which belong to that heavenly Kingdome 'T is out of the sphere of the activity of the politicall Magistrate to subdue the inward man or to inflict spirituall punishment upon the consciences And there is nothing more common in the writings of the most learned and orthodox Divines then to shew that the civill power and government of the Magistrate and the Ecclesiasticall government of the Church are toto genere disjoyned and thereupon the power of the Magistrate by which he deales with the corrupt manners and disorders of his people is in the nature and specificall reason distinct from Ecclesiasticall discipline For the power of the Magistrate by which he punishes sin doth not subserve to the Kingdome of Christ the Mediator that he may apply efficaciously to the elect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Propheticall and Priestly office of Christ he doth not affect the inward man and conscience with spirituall punishment neither is this instituted of God and sanctified as the meanes for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the day of Christ. Hence also by Divines the manifold difference between the censure of excommunication and the punishment of the Magistrate is observed Zanchius doth accurately shew the difference between them The cause of excommunication is not the punishment of sinne but the salvation of the sinner and the edification of the Church and the glory of God but the scope of the civill Magistrate and his office is that he should punish the sinne it selfe neither dâ—…th it looke to the salvation or damnation of the offender whereupon although the sinner repent yet he doth not spare but punisheth according to his office But the Church according to Christs doctrine doth not strike with the spirituall sword unlesse he be impenitent neither is this done for death but for salvation
only and the highest powers can they alwayes heare or attend unto through the many great businesses of State affaires all the differences scandals schismes that both in particular Churches and betweene Churches will fall out in a Kingdome or Nation in this way of non-communion and protestation against one another especially in Independent Churches where people make Churches and Ministers in that way they doe and have no fixed rules nor certaine way I warrant the supreame Magistrate and higher Powers Kings and Parliaments shall have something to doe to back the sentence of non-communion and to heare all causes and differences But if you understand the inferiors also Majors Bailiffs c. I represent it to you what fit judges most of them are to judge and determine of such difficult Ecclesiasticall causes in heresies schismes scandals c. which fall out amongst the Ministers of Churches and between Churches themselves Againe If you understand the Magistrate indefinitely and obsolutely any Magistrate though Heathen Popish Arrian as Mr Robinson doth in his Apologie and I find it in your manuscripts and principles that you take it so judge then in your selves if the Church hath not remedies among themselves how fit are they who understand not Christian religion nor the doctrines according to godlinesse to judge of the great differences between Churches and to assist the sentence of non-communion against Churches if the Apostle Paul reproved the Corinthians so in 1 Cor. 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7. for cariying matters from the Church even the smallest matters the things that pertained to this life unto unbeleevers how would he blame the carrying of things spirituall and Ecclesiasticall unto Heathen from the Ministers of the Church or doe you understand that there shall be Courts of civill Judicature to appeale unto c. then there must be certaine Laws and rules agreed upon as for particular Churches so between the Churches according to which they must proceed to back the sentence of non-communion and protestation c. which yet you practise not Now the many inconveniences that would come of such Courts you may easily fore-see so that this is not like to be an effectuall remedy 6. What shall be done in case there be no Magistrates at all to take any notice in matters of Religion and Church government but leave Churches to themselves in that as it was with you in Holland there were no Magistrates medled with the government and order of your Churches nor none to have recourse unto or to backe the sentence of Non-communion you being in a place and State where no outward violence or any other externall authoritie either civill or Ecclesiasticall would have enforced you what shall in this case supply the defect of Excommunication and of an Ecclesiasticall authoritative power Hath not the wisdome of Christ provided remedies in the Church for all the internall necessities of the Church and constituted it a perfect bodie within it selfe 7. Whether can it be rationally and probably thought that in an ordinary way the having recourse unto the Magistrate though orthodox and the submitting to his particular cognizance and examination of such causes with his backing the sentence of Non-communion in Ecclesiasticall causes in cases of sinnes errours differences that arise in Churches should be as effectuall and sufficient a remedie as the way of Classes and Synods and that the Magistrates interposing their authoritie and power of another nature will be as good as the Authoritative Presbyteriall Governement in all the subordinations and proceedings of it Now that 't is not probable it should be or that it should serve in stead of Synods and Classes take these probable and rationall grounds 1. All wanton wits and erroneous spirits all your Sectaries and Novelists are rather for this way then for Synods and Classes though most of them would have neither to meddle at all in matters of Religion as the Socinians Anabaptists c. Thus the Arminians were against Classes and Synods and all for the power of Magistrates and it was their chiefe Engine by which in those sad daies of the Netherlands they encreased their partie and came to such a height Sectaries hope that if they can decline the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they sha'l what by flatterie and what by delay through other great businesses of State and what by sophismes and fallacies and what from principles of policie in many States-men and what by friends c. effect that which they have no hopes at all by Ecclesiasticall Assemblies they know the Presbyteries and Synods are able to discover their fallacies answer their arguments will mind those businesses wholly are not to be wrought upon by State principles c. Now if in experience and reason this way were as powerfull to reduce a Church or Churches from schisme and heresie they would never be so much for this way rather then Presbyterie 2. Naturall reason dictates that they are best able and fittest to judge and resolve of things who doe above others give themselves to the studie and profession of those things as Physitians can best judge of wholesome meats and diseases and Lawyers of the lawes and differences arising in them a Counsell of Warre of difficult cases and points in warre And therefore in things that belong to the spirituall good of the soule and the Church the Ministers of the Church are most likely to resolve and to remedie things Can it ordinarily be expected that the Magistrate should in matter of doctrine and opinion in matters of schisme and in matters of worthinesse and abilities of Ministers and in many cases that arise be able to judge and determine matters as the Ministers and Pastours of the Church 3. Those who have most time and leisure to attend a worke and businesse to sift into it to heare all that can be said and can mind it they being able and understanding are likeliest to determine best and bring things to a good end we see in experience that able and honest men through multitudes of businesse delay long slubber over businesses and cannot doe things so effectually as they ought and seldome prove good Arbitratours in difficult intricate cases Now Magistrates through many great and necessarie businesses of State having large dominions cannot so well attend as the Classes and Synods to heare and examine all the differences scandals schismes c. that doe and may arise both in Churches and betweene Churches especially as would fall out in the Independent way and particularly in this way of submission Non-communion and mutuall Protestation but matters would be delayed and neglected or escape wholly or be hudled up 4. To these I might adde as followes that the Magistrate through his just greatnesse would not know the spirits and dispositions of Ministers people nor of other matters so well as the Ministers who live among them and converse with one another frequently neither would there be that easinesse of accesse to the Magistrates and great persons as
to their Ministers and Pastours with other such like 8. But in Ecclesiasticall matters and differences upon the Magistrates interposing his power what is it you will submit unto and what will you allow him to doe And what is that power you will give him in backing the sentence of Non-communion upon his judgement of the cause and how farre and in what will you obey him that so we may understand how this Civill power is intended by you for a remedie and helpe in Churches and betweene Churches For instance will you submit not to gather Churches nor set up Assemblies withoâ—…â—…is leave and upon complaints of the many mischiefes and differences occasioned thereupon will you upon his hearing both sides and judging that those who are gathered shall be dissolved dissolve them and not meet in those wayes any more Will you upon some members complaining to the Magistrate of some Minister or Ministers in their Church for preaching erroneous and unprofitable doctrine meere novelties subtilties and the Magistrate upon particular cognizance and examination of such causes judging that he shall preach no more will the Minister forbeare upon it or the Church to heare him in case the Minister would not yeeld will the Church now goe chuse a new and Orthodox Minister upon it or in case a member or more be unjustly excommunicated and they complaine to the Magistrate who calling the Church to account and hearing both sides shall judge on the Complaiants side and now order the Church to absolve him and order them to confesse their sinne publikely and appoint them to keepe a day of humiliation for it and order them to give him such a summe of mony for the wrong trouble and losse of his time in following the businesse against them will the Church now submit to doe all this yea or no What say you to these and the like cases Now I aske you this in the close because you pretend a great deale of submission to the Magistrate and to give him much power which though you did grant yet for the many reasons and grounds alreadie specified this would not countervaile the way of the Presbyterians in their spirituall censures by Presbyters and Synods whether you clearely and plainly allow this to the Magistrate because I finde in Manuscripts and heare that in Sermons by men of your Church-way the contrarie is publikely preacht and held as for example in that Treatise about a Church which goes under one of your names there is this passage with more to that purpose The Saints need not expect their power or leave for to gather together so as without it such a combination is unlawfull nor should they forbeare it out of conscience of the Magistrates prohibition indeed if the Magistrate should force or compell them to forbeare or persecute them they may forbeare actuall assembling Act. 8. 1. not because the Magistrate forbids it but in mercie to themselves And indeed about a Church Christian Magistrates have no more power then Heathen Magistrates had So that this is spoken by you where Magistrates are Christian and where Churches are already setled And adde to this that M. S. in his Reply in defence of your Apologie is against coercive and coactive power in matters of Religion and that you all hold a toleration and that the Magistrates ought not to hinder men or punish them for the matter of their consciences how then notwithstanding all your discourse of the power of the Magistrate which added to Non-communion will be an effectuall meanes to releeve persons injured to reduce Churches and persons going in schisme and errours shall persons injured be remedied or Churches and persons reduced For suppose the persons or Churches that now fall into such errours and schismes will pretend nay 't is so really that they in their conscience hold errours for truths and thereupon with-draw from such Churches to others nay suppose those who now receive these new truths should cast out of their fellowship and excommunicate some for holding otherwise as for instance a Church falling into Antinomianisme should censure some of their members that remain orthodox for legal Christians and for being enemies to free-grace and should judge themselves bound to doe so in these and such like cases what remedie is there for miscarrying Churches by all the power of the Magistrate you pretend to give to him But this is brought in here by you and given to him to put of that strong argument against your way and that you may have something for present to blind the eyes and stop the mouths of many that looke no further that it may serve your turne at such a straight whereas upon other principles you denie the Magistrate this when it shall come to be a matter of conscience And now by all the severall particulars under this fifth head the understanding Reader may observe that not only in many respects your non-Communion and Magistrates power are not a remedie comparable to the Presbyterian way not proper nor to the nature of the offences and things in question a way in stead of bringing things to an end redressing and mending matters amisse that will be but the beginning of more strife and making more differences and evils then either it sindes or can heale the mother and nurse of Confusions Disorders and endlesse contentions but also that all the power here pretended to be given to the Magistrate upon examination is no such matter nor will not amount to make good the ends propounded whereas the Presbyteriall Government here scandalized as either wholly inconsistent with this forme of Civill Government or else not giving it its due will be found by its principles not only to have powerfull spirituall remedies for all spirituall evils of the Church but will be found in many respects to make use of and to give honour and power to the Civill Magistrate as a nursing Father from first to last even in the ordinary way of the Order and Government of the Church beyond you besides what they give more in extraordinary cases in a Church miserably corrupted disordered c. Of which the Reader may read at large in Apollonius who was a great Presbyterian cap. 2. And so learned Zanchius in his Tractate de Magistratis shewes 't is in the power of the Magistrate not to suffer Heretickes nor erroneous persons to preach and he gives him coactive punitive power to cut them off Beza a great Presbyterian in his Epistles and other writings in matters of Religion doth not exclude the Magistrate but gives him that power in some things which you deny but besides that power they give the Magistrate they stand for as needfull in the Church Classes and Synods for the Government of it Zanchy shewes that discipline cannot take place where the Ministers never meet together the meâ—…ting of Ministers and Ecclesiasticall Synods we judge most necessary As no Politie Common-wealth or Kingdome can consist without their meetings Senates and Councels
you may call it exile because you did flie out of your owne Country though none persecuted you to shun persecution before it came as foreseeing possibility of danger yet you can in no sence be called poore Exiles for you were rich Exiles who in Holland enjoyed many conveniences and such abundance as to be able some of you to spend 200 or 300. lb. per annum and to doe other expensive acts which for present I forbeare to name And I can produce letters of many conveniencies which you enjoyed there Letters before quoted by me of M. Archers speake so much Poore exiles are such who have no certaine dwelling-place maintenance friends but how they can be called poore Exiles that enioy wives children friends full and liberall maintenance annually liberty of callings with all pleasures and delights as much or rather more then in their owne countrey I see not Suppose some merchants and tradesmen who could not so well nor so much to their advantage follow their callings and drive their trade in their owne countrey should for their better advantage and accomodatons in these kinds goe with their families into another Countrey can these be called Exiles Suppose a Minister who disliking some things here in the present Government to be established or wanting a liberall maintenance or fearing the warre should goe over to Roterdam Hambrough to preach to the company of Merchants there where he shall have better meanes can this Minister be stiled a poore exile Now I leave you and the Readers to make application As for those words Gods bringing you backe againe in these revolutions of the times into your owne land I know God permitted it and ordered it but I well know Satan hastened and furthered it for the dividing of the godly party here and for the obstructing the worke of Reformation and hindering the setling the government of the Church that so in the meane time he might increase his kingdome and bring in a floud of all errours and licentiousnesse upon us and Brethren let me speake sadly to you not out of passion but out of long and serious deliberation it had been good for you and for us that you had continued exiles still and that neither you five nor they of New-England had heard of the revolution of our times and Gods visiting us in mercie till the Church and government had been setled I am confident that things had not then been at that passe now as they are As for that Parenthesis the powring forth of manifold prayers and teares for the prosperitie of the Kingdome in a strange Land I will not gaine-say it onely let me mind you of two passages in your Apologie Our selves had no hopes of ever so much as visiting our own land again in peace and safety to our persons and the other when we had least dependencie on this kingdome or so much as hopes ever to abide therin in peace Now take away faith hope endeavors will much cease this I judge should much hinder your praiers and teares for the prosperitie of the land for my part I had much hope of the kingdom when things were at worst and I exprest it both in preaching and conference to many and some can witnesse what I have said to them of the Arch-bishop of Canterbury and the rest of that faction and of the revolution of the times God was pleased so to support my spirit that I expected and waited as men doe for the light of the morning when that every day God would arise and doe some great worke and change the times and seasons As for your finding the judgement of many of your godly learned brethren in the Ministerie that desired a generall Reformation to differ from yours in some things that was no marvell I wonder you could expect it otherwise being but a few young men of yesterday and going a way by your selves so different from all Reformed Churches But I must tell you you found not onely the judgement of many godly Ministers that desired a generall Reformation but the judgement of them all who were in publike imployment and of any great account to differ from yours not onely in some things but even in your whole Church way how ever that since by your presence and your politick way of working and the strong streame of popular applause running that way some few Ministers uncertaine heady inconstant wanton-witted men are since come off to your way but as for your confidence and open profession that in the things wherein you differed from many of your godly brethren that you professedly judge the Calvinian reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Poperie to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves I answer they may doe so and I know no Church yet so perfect but may stand in need of some further Reformation and the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland grant you so much pag. 7. That they are most willing to heare and learne from the word of God what needeth further to be reformed in the Church of Scotland Now whether your Churches and those of new England be so perfect though not of the first Reformation as to stand in no need of a further Reformation in government I much doubt especially considering that letter lately come from New-England written by M. Parker as also a nother Letter from M. Wilson of Boston and a terrible Lette from a reverend godly Minister there whose name I have been entreated to conceale least it might much prejudice him there but for answer I must tell you I doe professedly judge that in your sence in the things excepted against by you the Reformed Churches particularly that of Scotland need not a further Reformation namely to come to your principles of Democracie Independencie Libertinisme and to keepe all those and their children from admission into the visible Church whom you keepe out and to condemne as unlawfull all set formes of prayer composed by Synods and Assemblies though never so holy and heavenly for matter and frame And as to that that it may without prejudice to them or the imputation of Schisme in you be thought that comming new out of Poperie they might not be fully perfect the first day I answer they never thought so neither were they so fully perfect in Church government the first day but the reformed Churches particularly the French-Churches had many Synods Assemblies and Colloquies where points of government and order have been further debated cleared and Canons added and in the Church of Scotland after doctrine was established they were exercised in conferences and Assemblies about matters of Discipline and Government which is the perfection spoken of here by you above twenty yeares Besides considering that the Reformed Churches both in France Scotland and Holland have heretofore been troubled with the maine of your principles and have heard all the Arguments and reasons for them and against their owne way and that both of old
godly Minister of the City conferring with one of your precious Ministers about these points before he went into Holland and telling him This is Brownisme and Browne held thus what are you a Brownist Your companion and fellow-labourer answered him thus The way was of God but the man was nought namely Browne As for those words whereby you would evade the naine of Brownisme That upon the very first declaring your judgements in the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church discipline and likewise since it hath been acknowledged you differ much from them 'T is not your saying so will cleare you unlesse you had named what that chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church-discipline is and how and in what words you declared your judgements and to whom for you might so expresse your selves as you doe in this Apologie too often whereby you might deceive the most of them to whom you declared your judgements yea many able Ministers and Scholars who are not versed in your distinctions and reservations and yet for all the declaring of your judgements differ very little from the Brownists except in different phrases and in not deducing such consequences Let me intreate you therefore to lie no longer hid under such generals but in your Reply declare particularly what you hold the chiefe point of all Church-discipline and wherein in that you differ from them But may I guesse at the chiefe and fundamentall point of all Church-government and discipline wherein you declared your judgements by which you would distinguish your selves from the Brownists Is it not that you give the power and authoritie to the officers and not to the people onely I have heard that of late you have declared your selves thus and the late Epistle before M. Cottons booke written by two of you implies so much But be it so though I can out of a letter of M. Bridges and from notes and manuscripts show that seven yeares agoe the expressions of some of you were otherwise yet this will not free yoâ—… for M. Iohnson fell to this and yet was guiltie of Brownisme for all that But in this also your principles and your practises are incoherent and however in fine words and flattering similitudes you dilate upon it in your Epistle to M. Cottons late booke yet it comes much to one the substance of which Epistle I will answer in my Rejoynder to your Reply or in some thing by it selfe and will wipe off the paint and guilt and then the naked counter and rotten post will appeare As for your publick profession that you beleeve the truth to lie and consist in a middle way betwixt Brownisme and that which is the contention of these times the Authoritative Presbyteriall Government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it I answer then Actum est de Presbyterio de Synodo You have determined the cause alreadie the Assembly may rise when they please and need sit no longer for the truth lies and consists in Independencie but I suppose though heretofore and when you wrote this Apologie you did so publickly prefesso and beleeve the truth to lie in your way the middle way as you terme it yet by what hath past since your height and courage is somewhat abated and you are not now so peremptory and I find now you write in another stile which becomes you much better We humbly suppose we humbly conceive again in all humilitie But if you be high still I must tell you your confidence hath deceived you and your middle way as you fancie it though I must still charge upon you refined Brownisme will prove like other pretended truthes lying in middle wayes just as the Catholicke and Arminian moderatours Cassander the booke called Interim and that booke of late times cal'd media via betweene the Papists and Protestants and betweene the Calvinists and Arminians And as for the way of your expression of Presbyteriall government I cannot but except at it observing that all along obliquely and as farre as you may you still asperse that You can here expresse Brownisme simply without any additions to it but you cannot passe by Presbyteriall government without a lash at it which is the contention of these times as if you would insinuate the blame of all the contentions and stirre of these times to be Presbyteriall Government whereas the truth is the contention of these times is Episcopall and your Independent Government which have caused and doe continue all the contention and stirres in Church and Common-wealth they mutually strengthning each other against Presbyteriall government and â—…o 't is still to be observed that all along in this Apologie where you speake of Presbyteriall Government you state the questions about that in the highest and utmost latitude but of your owne Church and way in the lowest yea lower then you hold as for instance in 11 12. pag. about the qualification of Church-members to deceive the Reader with your pretended moderation and the more to possesse the Reader against the jus divinum of the Presbyteriall way as for example in this place Authoritative Presbyteriall government in all the subordinations and proceedings of it Now the substance and summe of Presbyteriall governement may be according to Apostolicall Primitive patternes and yet all the subordinations and proceedings of it as it is practised in the Church of Scotland fitted to that Nation and Kingdome may have no Scripture examples Presbyteriall government in some Reformed Churches as at Geneva hath not all the subordinations and proceedings as Scotland being no Kingdome nor Nation and Presbyteriall government in England might have one subordination more then Scotland and some different proceedings in the manner and forme of carrying matters according to particular circumstances and occasions of time and place The Ministers of the Church of Scotland who hold their Church Government to be laid downe in the word of God for the substance and essentials of it doe not as I suppose hold that all the subordinations and proceedings as practised in their kingdome have a particular rule either of precept or example I doubt not but they well understand no whole Nation was converted to the faith in the time that the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles were written nor the supreame Magistrate in any Kingdome or Nation and therefore in no one Church or Nation where Christians were converted and Churches planted there could not be that formall combination into Classes setled Synods or generall Assemblies neither could the supreame Magistrate or a Commissioner for him be a prime member in their chiefe Assemblies and so I might instance in other particulars but the Church of Scotland find Presbyteriall Government in subordinations and appeales that is Government exercised in Churches and Assemblies which consisted of more members then could meet in one place and they find Assemblies where upon cases of difference there were more members and officers then of one Church as the Acts of the Apostles showes fully
Apologie have been suddenly blowne over and presently have died by the continued presence of your persons and by your preaching c. as the many mists that had gathered about you in your absence by your bare presence without spâ—…aking a word were scattered It is much your former experience did not teach you to expect the latter and to have reasoned from that to this so as to have caused you to have forborne making such an Apologie at such a time as this upon such an occasion as a sudden unexpected noise of confused exclamations But how ever you hold out this in the beginning of your Apologie as the ground of it yet something else moved you to that work and you have learned like the lap-wing to cry furthest off the nest But through the grace of Christ our spirits are and have been so remote from such dispositions and aimes that on the contrary we call God and men to witnesse our constant forbearance either to publish our opinions by preaching although we had the Pulpits free or to print any thing of our owne or others for the vindication of our selves although the presses were more free then the Pulpits or to act for our selves or way although we have been from the first provoked unto all these all sorts of wayes both by the common mis-understandings and mis-representations of our opinions and practises together with encitements to this state not to allow us the peaceable practises of our consciences which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed us and these edged with calumnies and reproaches cast upon our persons in print and all these heightned with this further prejudice and provocation that this our silence was interpreted that we were either ashamed of our opinions ex able to say little for them when as on the other side besides all other advantages Bookes have bin written by men of much worth learning and authoritie with moderation and strength to pre-possesse the peoples minds against what are supposed our Tenets But we knew and considered that it was the second blow that makes the quarrell and that the beginning of strife would have been as the breaking in of waters and the sad and conscientious apprehension of the danger of rending and dividing the godly Protestant party in this Kingdome that were desirous of Reformation and of making severall interests among them in a time when there was an absolute necessitie of their nearest union and conjunction and all little enough to effect that Reformation intended and so long contended for against a common adversarie that had both present possession to pleade for it selfe power to support it and had enjoyed a long continued settlement which had rooted it in the hearts of men And this seconded by the instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable wise and godly personages of both Houses of Parliament to forbeare what might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference They having also by their Declarations to his Majesty professed their endeavour and desire to unite the Protestant party in this Kingdom that agree in fundamentall truths against Popery and other heresies and to have that respectâ—… to tender consciences as might prevent oppressions and inconveniences which had formerly been Together with that strict engagement willingly entred into by us for these common ends with the rest of our brethren of the Ministery which though made to continue but ad placitum yet hath bin sacred to us And above all the due respect we have had to the peaceable and orderly Reformation of this Church and State the hopefull expectation we have been entertained with of an happy latitude and agreement by meanes of this Assembly and the wisedome of this Parliament The conscience and consideration of all these and the weight of each have hitherto had more power with us to this deep silence and forbearance then all our own interestâ—… have any way prevailed with us to occasion the least disturbance amongst the poople We have and are yet resolved to beare all this with a quiet and strong patience in the strength of which we now speake or rather sigh forth this little referring the vindication of our persons to God and a further experience of us by men and the declaration of our judgements and what we conceive to be his truth therein to the due and orderly agitation of this Assembly wherof both Houses were pleased to make us members In this Section are three maine things 1. Your way and carriage of your selves since your returne into England as not in the least attempting to make and encrease a party but on the contrary constantly forbearing either by preaching c. to doe any thing for you selves and way 2. The provocations you have had from the first all sorts of wayes to have done otherwise whereby you the more set out and commend your patience and forbearance 3. The grounds and reasons laid downe of your deep silence and forbearance now all and every one of these I will examine and give the Reader and your selves this account following For the first of these three and your expressions in it above all other passages in your Narration I cannot but admire and wonder what you meant by them and where your consciences memories and wisedomes were when you writ them many passages in other Sections of this Apologie are strange for their doubtfull double meaning and for their untruth but some passages in this Section were beyond my imagination of you not only thus publikely to write manifest untruths and to subscribe to them with your own hands but to father them on the grace of Christ and to invocate the Name of God to make him owne them calling God to witnesse yea and men too to witnesse such untruths when as God and men know the contrary to what you here assert I marvaile none of you one at least had not relented and startled at these passages in the first part of this Section But through the grace of Christ our spirits are and have been so remote from such dispositions and aymes that on the contrary we call God and men to witnesse our constant forbearance either to publish our opinions by preaching c. Now the first part of this Section instead of what you write here may be thus truly written and I shall presently make it good We since our returnes into the Kingdome having had manifold advantages to make and increase a party have made use of them and in a great measure attempted it for through the want of the grace of Christ our spirits have had such dispositions and aimes that God and men can witnesse our dealing and trading for our opinions and way both by preaching and some of us by printing and many other wayes acting for our selves and way so that the conscience and consideration of all the reasons as the sad apprehension of the danger of rending and dividing the godly Protestant party in this Kingdome
in as much as lay in you did not you so act for your owne opinions and Church way that you would have hazarded the Kingdome Religion and all rather then the losse of your Independencie which you knew the Scots were so averse unto 7. Whether have not some of you in Conferences with many good people and by discourses in private acâ—…ed for your selves and way by stumbling them in the point of a particular Church and in the point of coming to the Sacrament of the Lords Supper and by pleading for a Toleration of all opinions that may stand with saving Grace and doth none of you remember what was answered you that Poligâ—…mie might stand with saving Grace and must that be tolerated 8. Whether have not some of you tampered with some Parliament men about delaying the meeting of the Assembly and suggesting to them doubts and feares about it and whether in the Assembly have you not by all possible wayes both in opposing some orders of speaking but so many times to one point the sooner to bring things to an end and by other wayes all that you could delaied the proceedings of the Assembly and all this out of acting for your selves and way that so your party might increase and your opinions spread before the Government might be setled 9. Have not some of you out of acting for your selves and way endeavoured the bringing into the Assembly since the sitting of it some Independents to be members of it and upon their being stopped have not some of you earnestly dealt with some members of the House of Commons that they might passe their House and what could this be but out of acting for your selves and way 10. Whether have not you out of acting for your selves and way had many meetings and consultations both of writing letters into New-England for their help and furtherance and about what you should doe and how to order matters since the Scots must be sent for and since the Assembly could not be hindred how things might be managed and carried for the best advantage of your cause and way and whether was not this Apologeticall Narration one of the Products of your consultations Now unto these ten I might adde other Quaeres but shall reserve them to my Rejoynder these being sufficient to satisfie you and the Reader So that laying all these things together what did you meane or thinke with your selves when you writâ—… these passages could you imagine you danced in a net all this time and that men tooke no notice of you or that all had been forgotten that you had done and preacht or did you imagine your power was so great with the people having such a name that all would be taken for truth you writ or that your greatnesse was such that no man durst question what you had done or appeare against your Apologie or if they did they should but blast themselves among the people and the people would believe nothing against you what strange spirit possessed you to write thus For my part I feare not my name I have learned to trust God with it and I dare by the Grace and helpe of Gods Spirit deale with you and all of you in these Controversies But supposing all you affirme of your selves had been true eujus contrarium verum est as is too evident by what I have proved that you had neither preached printed nor acted personally for your selves and way yet all this forbearance might have been not from the grounds and reasons brought by you in this Section but from other principles of wisdome and policie as the more to ingratiate your selves with the Houses of Parliament and to insinuate into their favour and that you might the better make such an Apologie as this and make use of it to your advantage at such a time as this and I judge such considerations have restrained some of you and prevailed with you not to act so much as your fellowes and not so openly as otherwise you would especially knowing whilest you were in the Tyring-house unseene the Scene was full and the Tragedie went on there being no want of Actors on the open Stage to carry on your Church way As for instance Mr W. Mr P. Mr K. Mr B. Dr H. Mr L. Mr G. Mr C. Mr B. Mr P. Mr G. Mr W. Mr W. S. Mr C. Mr E. Mr C. Mr A. Mr L. cum multis aliis of whose preachings and acting for themselves and way in gathering of Churches c. and of books made by some of them and printed by others of them it would fill a book to enumerate particulars and to declare what hath been done in Citie Countrey Armies and in all places to make and increase parties and to occasion so great disturbance amongst all sorts as that it will be found a hard worke to settle the Government of the Church and to reduce the people And I confesse you having such choice of Instruments and under-worâ—…men to work by and to build your Babel I marvell you contented not your selves with onely casting the Modell and giving the pattern and aime to others but that you should appeare upon the workes your selves as often-times you did To your second main part in this Section the Provocations you have had all sorts of wayes to have preached printed and acted for your selves both by the Common misunderstandings and misrepresentations of your opinions and practises c. I must tell you I judge and that upon good grounds never men laying all things together consideratis considerandis had fewer provocations for considering you were but a few in comparison and going in a new different way from all the Reformed Churches and the destructivenesse of your principles to Reformation with the danger of them in drawing away and stealing our sheep from us and the contempt of our Ministerie occasioned by your principles among all the people generally of your way as also your leaving the land in the greatest need notwithstanding all these and many more that all the godly Ministers of City and Countrey should carry themselves towards you with that love respect fairnesse brotherly kindnesse as they did might have provoked you indeed but in another way then you expresse it And for the truth of this I appeale to your owne breasts and to the knowledge of my brethren and to these following demonstrations 1. There was a great deale of loving respects and faire carriage towards you both in admitting you into their Pulpits and in forbearing all things offensive to you and your party before the Sermons to gratifie you 2. There was a great deale of faire respects to you in admitting you into their Societie and publique meetings about the matters of Reformation 3. There was a generall silence by the Godly Ministers I feare unto sinfull in forbearing preaching against your points and that when some of you preached for your way and many Pamphlets were printed for it 4. The Ministers suffered some of you and no
of this Apologie But the Reader may aske what is the plaine English of the streame of publike interest according to which there was so great danger the Assembly would swimme I answer I conceive one of these two things or else it is probable both are meant by the Apologists 1. That the Ministers of the Assembly for themselves and their fellow Ministers would stand for such a government as wherein the power should be in their own hands and not in the peoples to doe with them for maintenance and standing at their pleasure and therefore they would establish Presbyteriall government rather then Independent 2. The Parliament of England upon great Armies raised against them needing help calls in for the Kingdome of Scotland to assist them now the Scots being for Presbyteriall government and against Independent and desirous of uniformity in government between the Kingdomes therefore for gratifying the Scots the Assembly is like to be swayed that way is this the streame of publike interest meant by you oh how unworthy an insinuation is this and how prejudicall this will be to the Reformation in after times I desire you to consider of in coole blood and what the enemies will say of it the government and Reformation of this Church was not free not according to the word of God but what Scotland would have Englands need of Scotland made them at least swayed much to take up their government but how ever this is insinuated for the holding up the credit of your cause against the time the Assembly shall come to reject it as Apocripha yet I must tell you you foresaw that which is no such streame of publike interest nor no cause of disadvantage to you For the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland were not sent hither to put their government upon us but came as well to receive any light and help as to give and to come to us in what should be found upon debate more agreeable to the word as we to come to them and the Covenant of the Kingdomes doth not tye us to the Reformation of the Church of Scotland but binds us to Reformation according to the word of God and the example of the best reformed Churches and then requires both of us and them an uniformity according to the word of God And indeed the Assembly consisting of so many able learned and grave Divines where much of the wisdome piety and learning of two Kingdomes are met cannot well be thought to be carried away from the word by the streame of publike interest especially most of the Assembly being men not engaged by education or otherwise to any other of the reformed Churches or by former declarations of their judgements nor appointed by the Parliament to Presbyteriall government but left freely to be guided by the light of the word in this way of God communicated to them besides that the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland however they be present in the Assembly to heare debates and to give their Reasons yet never gave their voices in any point that hath passed the Assembly As for the close of this Section trusting God both with your selves and his own truth as he shall be pleased to manage it by us Had you in adventuring your selves upon this Assembly and therein really beleeving all the sorts of disadvantages as you here speake trusted God both with your selvs and that you call his own truth some of you would never have brought such arguments for your way as you have done And certainely if some of you did trust God as you ought with your selves c. you would not trust so much to your wits and policie nor be so full of reservations fetches doubtfull expressions as you are And brethren let me deale with you plainely I hope it may doe you good many speake of your policie and subtiltie some who are strangers to you yet being members of the Assembly and beholding your managing of your opinions and way there wonder that good men should be so politick and subtill as you are especially if the cause were good Moreover if in all matters of Doctrine we were not as orthodox in our judgements as our bretheren themselves we would never have exposed our selves to this triall and hazard of discovery in this Assembly the mixture of whose spirits the quick-sightednesse of whose judgements intent enough upon us and variety of debates about all sorts of controversies afoot in these times of contradiction are such as would be sure soone to find us out if we nourished any monsters or serpents of opinions lurking in our bosomes And if we had carried it so as that hitherto such errours were not afore-hand open to the view and judgement of all yet sitting here unlesse we would be silent which we have not been we could not long be hid But it is sufficiently known that in all points of doctrine which hitherto in the review and examination of the Articles of our Church or upon other occasions have been gone through our judgements have still concurred with the greatest part of our bretheren neither doe we know wherein we have dissented And in matters of discipline we are so farre from holding up the differences that occurre or making the breaches greater or wider that we endeavour upon all such occasions to grant and yeeld as all may see and cannot but testifie for us to the utmost latitude of our light and consciences professing it to be as high a point of Religion and conscience readily to own yea fall down before whatsoever is truth in the hands of those that differ yea though they should be enemies unto us as much as earnestly to contend for and hold fast those truths wherein we should be found dissenting from them and this is in relation to peace so also as a just due to truth and goodnesse even to approve it and acknowledge it to the uttermost graine of it though mingled with what is opposite unto us And further when matters by discussion are brought to the smallest dissent that may be we have hitherto been found to be no backward urgers unto a temper not only in things that have concerned our own consciences but when of others also such as may suite and tend to union as well as searching out of truth judging this to be as great and usefull an end of Synods and Assemblies as a curious and exact discussion of all sorts of lesser differences with binding determinations of truth one way Whether in all matters of Doctrine all of you be as Orthodox in your Judgements as your brethren themselves I question it though in the most Doctrines and in the maine I grant it I have been told of some odd things in matter of Doctrine preached by one of you five both in England and Holland and of some points preached in the Church of Arnheim never questioned there and since printed not very Orthodox as for instance amongst others that the soules of the Saints
determinations to it and in the Epistle before Mr Cottons late booke Mr Goodwin and Mr Nye have many passages against Assemblies and Synods having power of binding Determinations though a Ministeriall Doctrinall power they grant and did you give to Synods and Assemblies in all sorts of lesser differences a binding Determination of truth one way and not only of consultation direction and at utmost but of Doctrinall Decernment the controversie would be at an end and therefore in writing thus judging that to be as great an end of Synods as this of binding Determinations and not holding it you hold neither and then what tends all this to but to deceive the Reader And thus we have nakedly and with all simplicitie rendred a cleare and true account of our wayes and spirits hitherto Which we made choice of now at first to make our selves known by rather then by a more exact and Scolastique relation of our Iudgements in the points of difference about Church-Governement reserving that unto the more proper season and opportunitie of this Assembly and that libertïe given by both Honourable Houses in matters of dissent or as necessity shall after require to a more publique way of stating and asserting of them In the meane time from this briefe historicall relation of our practises there may a true estimate be taken of our opinions in difference which being instanced in and set out by practises is the most reall and least collusive way and carries its owne evidence with it All which we have taken the boldnesse together with our selves humbly to lay at the feet of your wisedome and piety Beseeching you to look upon us under no other Notion or Character then as those who if we cannot assume to have been no way furtherers of that Reformation you intend yet who have been no way hinderers thereof or disturbers of the publique peace and who in our Iudgements about the present worke of this age the Reformation of Worship and Discipline doe differ as little from the Reformed Churches and our brethren yea farre lesse then they doe from what themselves were three yeares past or then the generality of this Kingdome from it selfe of late I wonder how you can say We have nakedly and with all simplicity rendred a cleare and true account of our wayes and spirits hitherto and for the truth of these lines I appeale to any indifferent Reader and to your owne Consciences upon the review and examination of your book and I desire the Reader to remember what all along in my answer I have observed and made good against many passages both in matters of fact and opinion and the result will be that in truth the words may be inverted in stead of Nakedly covertly in stead of all simplicitie all subtilty in stead of a cleare and true account of your wayes and spirits a darke conceal'd and untrue account so that your words might have been trulyer written And thus we have covertly and with all subtilty rendred a dark conceal'd and untrue account of our wayes and spirits hitherto As for those words which we made choice of now at first to make our solves known by rather then by a more exact and Scholastique relation of our Iudgements c. I answer it was the speciall hand of God against you and your way and I cannot but take speciall notice of it and desire you would that you should choose now at first to make your selves knowne by such an Apologie and in such a way rather then by a Scholastique relation of your Judgements A Scholastique relation would not have made you to knowne as this neither have discovered your spirits nor have given that just occasion and necessity of discovering you it would not have drawne in so many against you nor have drawne forth such answers as this But let me aske you the reason why chose you this way at first rather then a Scholasticall way if you would now in the time of the Assembly have beene making your selves known in your tenets and opinions and not have staied till the debating and discussing of them it had been for many Reasons best to have printed an exact and Scholastique relation of your judgements in the points of difference rather then such a popular and Rhetoricall discourse Can there be any reasons given for it but that this was writ to take the people with to prepare their mindes for your way for feare the Assembly should conclude against it and the more to engage your party to stand for you you having thus openly and confidently declared your selves as also because you are best at this weapon more able in a laxe discoursing way to expresse your selves then in a close presse Syllogisticall Argumentative way and people are most taken with such kind of discourses rather then with arguments As for that you say of reserving that unto the more proper season and opportunitie of this Assembly and that liberty given by both Honourable Houses in matters of dissent or as necessity shâ—…ll after require to a more publique way of stating and asserting of them Why could you not as well reserve this Apologeticall Narration a little longer as the Scholastique Relation of your Judgements especially having reserved it so long were you in such hast that the Assembly being upon the borders of the points in difference nay they being brought in by the Committees to be discussed you must send out such a discourse to prepare the way for you did you hope the Assembly as well as the people would be taken with good words and such flourishes and since as you pretend the ground of your silence in page 27. such a one as it was was that you might reserve your selves for the Assembly and let that be the stage whereon first you would bring your Tenets into publike view why did you goe contrary and first bring your opinions forth upon the stage of this Apologie to all the world before you brought them to the Assemblie and so frustrate your own resolutions and crosse your own words in page 27. But before I leave this I cannot but observe that you expresse you will draw up your dissent from the Assemble in a Scholastique way to both Houses and afterwards publikely print your grounds belike you are beforehand resolved what to hâ—…ld and so are preparing your selves to draw up your grounds for both Houses you meditate upon dissent and non-agreement and I perceive the Assembly must expect to be dealt with by you as the Synod of Dort was by the Arminians you will be Remonstrants well you may take your course and begin when you please the Assembly hath members enough able to deale with you at that weapon As to those words In the meane time from this briefe historicall relation of our practises there may a true estimate be taken of our opinions in difference which being instanced in and set out by practises is the most reall and least collusive way and carries
its own evidence with it For answer I propund to the Reader as followes this question of your words In the meane time from this briefe generall partiall conceal'd untrue historicall relation of your practises there can be little true estimate taken of your opinions in difference which being set out by practises but in part and not the whole in the bright side and not the blacke is the least reall without any evidence in it but the most collusive way especially with the people and with such who have not studied the controversies nor know not the points in difference But I will shew unto you a more reall way if you will promise to answer positively and plainely to such questions and positions as I shall draw up for you concerning your Church-way then there may be an estimate of the opinions in difference and for requitall of this I will promise you to answer clearely and fully to any questions both of doctrine discipline and worship that you can put unto me As for those words All which we have taken the boldnesse together with our selves humbly to lay at the feet of your wisedome and piety c. I answer it is a great boldnesse indeed to present such an Apologie to both Houses the supreme Iudicatory of this Kingdome which is and hath been in all times the most just and severe tribunall for guiltinesse to appeare before wherein besides the questions and controversies so mistated and so many doubtfull dark passages there are many untrue relations and I wonder how you durst presume to lay so much folly and indiscretion with untruth at the feet of so much wisedome and piety had your Apologie been only adpopulum who are weake and apt to be deceived it had been more excusable but to appeale by such an Apologie to both Houses of Parliament is very strange but we may see by this how farre applause and favour with the people and confidence of successe will carry men You have need indeed to beseech the Parliament to looke upon you under no other notion or character then as those who if you cannot assume to have been no way furtherers of the Reformation yet who have been no way hinderers thereof or disturbers of the publike peace I think your consciences should tell you the Parliament hath reason to looke upon you under other notions and characters then you represent your selves by which I judge is the ground of your deprecating the Houses and indeed I wonder how you can make such a Petition to both Houses for it is evident you have been no furtherers of that Reformation which the Parliament or ever any wise State did in any age intend but you may assume to have been furtherers of a Reformation for Independent government and separation which the Parliament never intended But whether you have been no way hinderers of the Reformation intended nor disturbers of the publike peace let the things alledged in this answer speake witnesse gathering of Churches witnesse the tumults that have been in streets upon some of your private meetings witnesse the disturbance of the publike peace in some Churches upon your preaching and particularly if the delaying the work of Reformation and setling Church government be some way an hinderance to it and an occasion of disturbing the publike peace then you five have not been the least nor last in some way hindering Reformation and disturbing the publike peace And bretheren what is the great thing that letteth and will let but you five I am confident had it not been for you five and a few more the Reformation intended and the publike peace of the Church had been in a farre fairer way then now it is Bretheren there are many complaints and that by your deare friends of retarding the work of Reformation by your meanes you are the Remora to the Ship under sailes you are the spokes in the wheeles of the Chariot of Reformation Parliament complaines Assembly City Countrey all complaine of the worke retarded and all is resolved into you five principally I could tell you many particular passages but you know what I meane In a word all the Prelates and the Papists cannot nor doe not so much hinder the work of Reformation as you five members of the Assembly and the Lord in merey worke so that by occasion of you and by meanes of your principles and many persons of your Church-way there doe not yet rise up another great mountaine before Zerubbabel to hinder the laying the head stone of that building the foundation whereof is layed As for your differing so little in your judgements about the present worke of this agâ—… Reformation of worship and discipline from the reformed Churches and your bretheren c. I answer if so be that you differ so little from the reformed Churches and your bretheren yea farre lesse then they doe from what themselves were three yeares past why doe you not then incorporate with us why will you or how can you answer it to God for that to make a rent and to desire to have Churches of your own way and to be an occasion of so much evill as that would prove to this Church the smaller the difference is the greater is the schisme and separation for the lesse the cause of a separation is the greater the fault is in those that make it Are we come so farre to you so many miles as you imply in those words from what themselves were three yeares past and will not you come a step or two to us for union and peace and to heale that great schisme with many other inconveniences We have and are comming blessed be God a great way to Church reformation and worship but the points that you would have us come to you in besides that they are Apocripha not to be found in Scripture we cannot being a Nation and Kingdome come to you in your way your Independent government and particular gathered Churches cannot stand with a Nationall Reformation as some of your way have confessed and therefore would have but a toleration for themselves but you may come to our Reformation easily though a Nation cannot be contained in a few yet a few may well in a Nation besides if you by your confessions differ farre lesse from us then what we did from our selves three yeares past why will you for all that great difference in us then and now and what need have you to goe make new separated Churches from whom you farre lesse differ but what ever you say here of your small difference between you and the reformed Churches and us the more to work with the Parliament for a toleration in some lesser differences yet the differences are held by you to be greater and more materiall or else you would close with us so reforming and among other particulars you differ more from your brethren then your brethren from themselves three yeares past your brethren being of one Church both then and now but you and
your brethren being of two distinct Churches and communions you setting up new because you cannot continue in the old with them and certainely men of one and the same Church and communion differ lesse among themselves then persons of a Church and communion set up against that Church but least from this passage your followers should make use to tax the Ministers of our Church who have desired Reformation with inconstancie and going according to the times and your selves make use of it to defend your running so farre in your way the Ministers differing farre more from themselves within this three yeares past then you doe from them I must propound this to prevent those consequences namely that most of your brethren both of the Assembly and of other parts of the Kingdome differ little from themselves in judgement from what they held three yeares past or many yeares past namely might they have had their desire and could their votes have carried it they would have voted out Ceremonies government by Arch-bishops Bishops c. this Lyturgie and Service-book and though they now practise not many things they did before but forbare yet some things are forborne as being matter of offence among the people and other things as having been an occasion of much hurt in the Church and now there being so open a dore for a full Reformation they doe labour after the best and follow what they judge most for edification now not condemning all their former practises especially considering those times unlawfull and sinfull And withall to consider us as those who in these former times for many yeares suffered even to exile for what the Kingdome it selfe now suffers in the endeavour to cast out and who in these present times and since the change of them have endured that which to our spirits is no lesse grievous the opposition and reproach of good men even to the threatning of another banishment and have been through the grace of God upon us the same men in both in the midst of these varieties And finally as those that doe pursue no other interest or designe but a subsistance be it the poorest and meanest in our own Land where we have and may doe further service and which is our birth-right as we are men with the enjoyment of the ordinances of Christ which are our portion as we are Christians with the allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse as not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to set our feet on earth For my part I wonder with what face you can write this And withall to consider us as those who in these former times for many yeares suffered even to exile and bring it as an argument to the Parliament to consider you the more namely to grant you a toleration All the answer I shall returne is that the Parliament and Kingdome shall and may doe well to looke upon you and consider you instead of many yeares suffering even to exile as men who voluntarily went into another Countrey nigh at hand to live safely out of gun-shot and there lived richly plentifully and freely whilest other godly Ministers lived here in continuall feares dangers tossings suspensions attachments and consumptions of their estates It is strange that men should be so farre partiall as to frame an argument and make account the more to be considered and favoured for flying away and deserting the Cause in the open field Suppose some Captaines and Souldiers in the Parliaments service should put up a petition to the Houses forasmuch as they left the rest of the Army in distresse and withdrew in the day of battaile and never returned till the enemy was put to the worst and the battaile turned therefore they would be pleased to afford them an exemption from common taxes c. and vouchsafe them some speciall priviledge what would you think of such a motion the application is obvious you deserted the Cause and in as much as in you lay hazarded all and yet are not content with this to come in upon the victory and divide the spoiles with those who helped to winne the field to enjoy the prime Lectures and places in and neare the City both of note and profit with all respect and countenance from Parliament and City but you would have Peculiars and enjoy such a way as should shut out all in comparison an unreasonable request and a strange instance for all posterity if it should be granted For our parts many of us who bore the heate of the day stood to it and ventured breaking and undoing many times over request no such favour nor exemption but to take our lot in common with the Kingdome and Ministers in things established and I know no reason that upon any considerations either extrinsicall or intrinsicall you should be considered above the godly Ministers of the Church of England I know and could give many to the contrary but besides that I have before fully spoken more then once how little there is in this argument of yours so often inculcated of exile and suffering to exile the cause here rendred by you of your suffering even to exile namely for what the Kingdome it selfe now suffers in the endeavour to cast out is not true nor proper For however the Kingdome now suffers for casting out the Hierarchie and some corruptions in worship and for a Reformation according to the word of God and the example of the best reformed Churches yet your suffering unto exile was not for that for which the non-conformists more forward then you suffered but your leaving the Kingdome was to enjoy the Church way without which we suppose you will not be contented though Ceremonies Episcopacie and Lyturgie be now cast out by the Kingdome as the fruit of all their sufferings but if Presbyterie be setled and Independencie may not be tolerated you will goe away the second time and may be call that exile and banishment too As for your enduring in these present times and since the change of them that which to your spirits is no lesse grievous the opposition and reproach of good men by which you would further perswade and move the Parliament to allow you a Toleration let me minde you that I beleeve in no age five men practising and acting as you have done contrary to the Judgement of all the Churches and of the Ministers your brethren and that to the sensible disadvantage of the publique Reformation ever met with lesse opposition and contradiction of good men and as for reproach none at all I will not reiterate what I have formerly expressed in pag. 226 227. but it is beyond all president the silence compliance respects faire carriage you have been entertained with from the Ministers and good men neither Luther that eminent servant of God and excellent Instrument nor others could finde the like in their time from the Ministers differing from them and therefore the complaint is very groundlesse and to
are sufficiently knowne And however all these things of no other interest but a subsistance in our own land and of enjoying the ordinances of Christ and not knowing where else with safety health and livelihood to set our feet on earth be held forth as specious pretences to the Parliament and Reader to perswade and to allure them yet the bottome of all this desire of a toleration in England though concealed is that there is no other place on earth where you are like to propagate your way to gaine so great a party to enjoy such full and rich Congregations and to have that respect and applause in your way as in England and in England as London and the adjacent parts or where you can have those faire hopes and probabilities of drawing so great a part of a Kingdome to your Church-way as here and where if you goe on to act as diligently and politickly as you have done in these three yeares last past and the Ministers be as generally silent and the common people of the Kingdome come a little more to understand your principles and have time to digest and consider of the great liberty and power they have thereby the rest of the Kingdome may in time come to be beholding to you for a toleration of Presbyterie if it be established which you will as soone grant if you come to have power in your hands as you will Episcopacy and Popery many of your Church-way ordinarily affirming they had rather have Episcopacie then Presbyterie and it hath been affirmed to me by a Minister of note that a Minister of the Church-way preferred Popery in this Kingdome before Presbyterie for if Popery should come in it would be but short lived but Presbyterie was like to be long lived The Arminians in the Netherlands at first desired but a toleration no more but to be permitted to enjoy in some Churches of their own their consciences with peaceableneâ—… but afterwards that by the connivance and favour of the Magistrates they were in some Cities and places as Amsterdam c. grown to a great number and had a great power then they would not suffer noâ—… tolerate the orthodox Ministers but persecuted them and some were forced to flie as in the stories of the Netherlands is at large recorded And if ever the Independents by connivance or a toleration should come to have a power and strength considerable if they serve not us so I am much deceived All Sectaries and erroâ—…eous spirits who are but tolerated and not owned will watch all advantages to set up their own way as chiefe and when they have a power will be impetuous and violent to effect it as the Anabaptists in Germanie were the Arminians in Holland and the Antinomians and Familists in New-England As women out of their weakenesse and feare when they have power over any are most cruell so Sectaries out of their feare least a State may one time or other cast them out and not tolerate them will upon an advantage suppresse and destroy the orthodox and stablish their own 2. As for the matter it selfe contained in the close of your booke a Toleration of Independent Churches and government the scope and last end of this Apologie whereunto tends all the artifice and fallacies in the composure of it I shall lay downe some Reasons and grounds against it I cannot stand to handle the question at large about tolerations of different Religions or of divers Sects and opinions in one and the same Kingdome this answer being already a great deale longer then I intended it I cannot now open the tearmes and premise the distinctions as distinguishing concerning the nature and kind of errors concerning the persons erring concerning the kinds and degrees of toleration and coaction c. I shall reserve the full handling of this point whether toleration be lawfull to a particular Tractate I intend upon that subject In the meane time upon occasion of what you present here to the Parliament I shall humbly submit to their considerations these following particulars 1. A Toleration of Independent Churches and government with their opinions and practise is against the Magistrates duty laid downe in Scripture but for Magistrates by good lawes to command and require obedience to the government and Reformation upon good grounds judged to be according to the word of God and so established is lawfull and their duties For the clearing of which I premise two things which I suppose must needs be granted 1. That the Magistrate is custos ac vindeâ—… utriusque Tabula as is confessed by all orthodox Divines that the care of Religion belongs to him and that he is to looke to it that the Church of God and the Government of it be constituted and setled according to the Word and that the people may lead a peaceable and quiet life in all godlinesse and honestie for which end Princes and Magistrates are to make Lawes for the observing of the Worship and Government of Christs Church forbidding and punishing with religious severitie those things which are practised against the Word of God but commanding what is according to it this is one of the great services they yeeld to Christ as they are Magistrates and I find Augustine and other Divines giving that sense of Psal. 2. 10 11. of Kings and Iudges serving the Lord with feare and of Deut. 17. 19. of God commanding the King to read the booke of the Law that he may learn to observe the things which are written in it not onely as private men practising these and ordering their lives according to the Word but as Kings they should order their Office by the Word not onely by living holily for so they serve God as men but as Kings and Magistrates by making Lawes for the Worship of God and prohibiting the contrary 2. That the Reformation in Worship Government c. which shall be setled and established by the Parliament is judged and taken for granted by them to be according to the minde of Christ else why have they called so many able godly and learned Divines to consult with for that purpose and stood so much for a Reformation according to the Word and why else will they establish it if there be any other more agreeable to the Word so that whatsoever other Government after all debates and Reasonings is rejected and refused must be thought not to have such a ground in the Word for if it had why was it not established and owned but comes to seeke for a Toleration and Connivance Now then by vertue of many Scriptures both in the old and new Testament the Examples of the Kings of Judah in commanding and requiring all the people to yeeld to the Reformations made by them and in particular the Spirit of God commending Iosiah for making all Jerusalem and Benjamin to stand to the Covenant which he had made with God the fourth Commandement requiring of the Father of the Family that he see
all under his power and charge to worship God upon which learned Divines as Zanchius excellently show the dutie of Magistrates in reference to commanding and providing that their people shall worship God according to his will Rom. 13. 4. Ephes. 5. 11. 1 Tim. 5. 22. 2 Iohn 11. v. Revel 〈◊〉 20. with many other places in Scripture of removing away of evill and of not consenting to evill c the Parliament is bound to establish and to command obedience to that Reformation which is judged most agreeable to the Word and to suppresse and hinder all other It was excellently done by the Parliament to call together so many able godly and Orthodox Divines to debate and find out the mind and will of God for Doctrine Worship and Discipline and to give libertie to men of different judgements to bring in their grounds and after all wayes of enquiry and searching into truth and a Modell drawn up for them upon good grounds being satisfied 't is their dutie by their power and authoritie to bind men to the decrees of the Assembly and not to tolerate any other Doctrines Churches Worship or Government to be set up and exercised you ought not to suffer the weake to be destroyed nor the people to be drawn away by every wind of doctrine but when once upon good grounds the Reformation is concluded you must defend it against troublesome and turbulent spirits and in so doing God will be with you and subdue the people under you whereas if to please some people you suffer them to enjoy their own way God will not be well pleased with it neither can you answer it unto God You may lawfully nay ye ought in that which is good to compell men though they pretend conscience shall the errours of other mens consciences hindr you from yeelding that service which God requiteth of you may a Parliament displease God to please men or may they be pleaseâ—…s of other mens sins and wink at evill to content some persons No Parliaments in making lawes for Religion must depend on the will of God â—…led in his Word in the best and 〈◊〉 wayes communicated to them and not upon the consciences of some people 〈◊〉 The Toleration desired is against the solemne League and Covenant for Reformation taken by the Parliament and the Kingdome of England and Scotland and 〈◊〉 be coâ—…ed to without 〈◊〉 of that Oath and Covenant so that the Apologie and motion for a Toleration comes â—…o late the doore is shut against it the Kingdomes hands are bound so that if such a Toleration were not in itâ—… selfe unlawfull and against the dutie of the Magistrate yet now because of the Oath and Covenant 't is unlawfull so that whatever might have been granted before cannot now lest the Kingdome should be guilty before God of Covenant-breaking Now aâ—… Toleration and this moving for a Toleration by the Apologists is expresly against these branches of the Covenant 1. Against that clause in the first branch of endeavouring the Reformation of Religion in the Kingdomes of England and Ixeland in Doctrine Worship Government and Discipline according to the Example of the best Reformed Churches now in this Petition to both Houses you would be exempted from the Reformation of the best Reformed Churches so that unlesse you understand the Brownists New-England or your own Churches to be the best Reformed you have broken your Covenant but though you may understand it so and may be tooke the Covenant in that sense yet I suppose you cannot think the Paâ—…liament whom you sâ—… to for a Toleration took the best Reformed Churches in that acception but for the Reformed Churches so called and commonly knowne as of France c. so that their granting a Toleration would be against this clause of the best Reformed Churches 〈◊〉 't is expresly against another clause in the firsâ—… branch And shâ—…ll endeavouâ—… to bring the Churches of God in the three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformity in Religion Confession of Faith Forme of Church Government Directory soâ—… Worship and Catechiâ—…ing Now if the Parliament hath covenanted so how can it grant a Toleration of so different a Forme of Church Government and Worship as the Independent way is from the Presbyteriall and how can you be excused from explicite formall breach of Covenant in this part of your Apologie having sworne and subâ—…bed to endeavour by all meanes to bring the Churches of God in these three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformitie in Religion who in stead of so labouring and endeavouring or ever so much as trying whether you with the rest of the Churches may not be brought into a neere Conjunction and Uniformitie just before the time the Assembly was comming to fall upon these points in difference to put out this Apologie and to move for a Toleration before hearing what could be said to you for satisfaction or ever debating the points in the Assembly Is this to endeavour by all meanes to bring the Churches of God in the three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformitie in Religion c. before so much as ever debating points to conclude magisterially as you doe in pages 22. and 24. against the Reformed Churches and to desire an exemption from Conjunction and Uniformitie with the rest of the Churches in this Kingdome 3. 'T is against that clause in the second branch that we shall in like manner without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of schisme and whatever shall be found contrary to found doctrine and the power of Godlinesse lest we partake in other mens sins Now that which you move for is schisme and contrary to sound Doctrine the Church-way being a schisme besides many of your Church Principles are against sound Doctrine and the power of Godlinesse as that in your Apologie about the subject of Excommunication as that of a few people having power to joyne together and set up a Church and chuse what Ministers they will as that of the Independencie of particular Congregations from any Authenitative power c. so that the Parliament in the midst of their Reformation and blessed Conjunction according to the Word of God with the Reformed Churches should in allowing you a Toleration suffer a formall schisme both in Worship and Government in the midst of these Kingdomes 4ly This Toleration sued for is against a part of the fourth branch endeavouring the discovery of such as have been evill Instruments by hindring Reformation of Religion or making any faction or parties amongst the people contrary to this League and Covenant Now the Parliament is bound by this against all persons and things which hinder the Reformation and makes any faction or parties amongst the people now whether a Toleration granted yea but moved for would not hinder the Reformation of Religion and make Faction and parties amongst the people let it be considered I confesse I wonder how the Apologists ever took this Covenant or having taken
it that they should ever dreame more of a Toleration or think it possible the Parliament should grant it the Covenant being so direct against a Toleration Many of the Church-way and Communion have and doe apprehend all this that taking the Covenant and a Toleration of Independencie cannot stand together and thereupon there are Ministers and people of that way had not taken it whatever they may of late I have been told from a good hand that some of the Apologists had much adoe to bring themselves to take it and that it was a bitter pill to get downe and one of some qualitie assured me that Mr Nye told him in Scotland that when the Covenant had passed there and was to be sent for England he writ with all earnestnesse and possible Conjurements to Mr Goodwin Mr Bridge c. not to oppose it or be against it as much fearing how it would goe downe To conclude this Reason For the Parliament to allow such a latitude as a Toleration it would be against the solemne Covenant For the Ministers to be silent and not to witnesse against such a Toleration desired would be in them a breach of the Covenant and therefore in respect to the Covenant I have taken I here witnesse against Tolerations of different sects and Churches The people by vertue of their Covenant are by all wayes and meanes in their places and callings engaged to oppose such a Toleration by their prayers to God against it c. Lastly our brethren of Scotland are ingaged with all their power and might in their places to oppose it Now the Apologists in petitioning for a Toleration have not only broken the Covenant themselves but they endeavour by all their wit and art in this Apologie to bring the Parliament and Kingdome into so great a guilt as the breach of this solemne Covenant 3. A Toleration is against the nature of Reformation a Reformation and a Toleration are diametrally opposite The commands of God given in his Word for Reformation with the Examples of Reforming Governours Civill and Ecclesiasticall doe not admit of a Toleration how many things might be produced out of some Sermons and Lectures of the Apologists concerning the nature of Reformation and of the Magistrates dutie in Reformation which crosse and thwart Tolerations and if the consciences of some men being unsatisfied must be a dispensation against removing such a thing or commanding such a thing there will never be no perfect nor thorough Reformation for what generall Reformation can there be but will be against many mens consciences the takinâ—… away of what men have long enjoyed and the bringing in of quite other things will trouble many consciences and if Magistrates or Ministers may not settle things contrary to the consciences of many but tolerate and allow them wherin they plead Conscience they shall never doe Gods work In King Edwards and Queen Elizabeths Reformations how was it against the Consciences of many taking away the Masse Confession to the Priest bringing in the Common Prayer Booke In this present Reformation how much is it against many mens Consciences the taking away the Government of the Church by Bishops the present Lyturgie and establishing another Government and Forme of publike Worship who if they might be allowed a Toleration would not admit a Reformation must not the Assembly and Parliament proceede therefore in the worke of Reformation because all mens consciences are not satisfied if this principle were once given way to that nothing might be removed nor nothing brought in which offends consciences but in such a case persons must have a libertie and Toleration men would still pretend conscience and so nothing to purpose should ever be reformed publiquely and all the Scripture speakes of Nationall and Generall Reformation by way of commanding and commending it should be just nothing depending meerely upon Tolerations that is there shall be a Reformation unlesse men desire a Toleration and the upshot of all will be this that so many of such a mind shall enjoy their way and so many of another mind their way c. and they who will yeeld to the Reformation by Nehemiah and Ezra may were there ever such Reformations read of in the Scriptures 4. A Toleration of men in their errours this pretended Libertie of conscience is against the judgement of the greatest lights in the Church both antient and moderne I might out of Ecclesiasticall Histories as Theodoret â—… relate the praises of those Emperours Theodosius Arcadius c. who would not suffer the meetings of the Heretioues but did by positive Lawes amerce and banish them as also the brands and blemishes cast upon those Emperours who suffered the Arrians and other Heretiques I might out of Augustine Ambrose Calvin Philip Melancthâ—…n Peter Marty Zanchius Musculus Bullinger bring many sentences againsâ—… Tolerations and leaving men to the libertie of their owne consciences and how by lawes and Discipline Magistrates may command obedience to the Worship of God established and to return into the Unitie of the Church But out of many I will give you the judgement of two Augustine and Beza Augustine in his Epistle to Vincentius writes to this purpose declaring to him though he was sometimes of that opinion that erroneous men should not be dealt with by force but only by the Word of God yet now by the arguments of others and by the visible examples of many being reduced from errours by that meanes he had changed his judgement and that therefore the Lawes of Princes might be lawfully made use of against errours And for this coactive power he brings many grounds in that Epistle and he speakes thus If we tolerate men in their errours and nothing be thought upon or done by us which may be likely to terrifie and recover them we shall truly render evill for evill If men be compelled and terrified but not instructed this is a tyrannizing over them but again if they be â—…aught and not feared they will move the slower to goe in the way of life not every one who spares is a Friend nor every one who chastiseth is an enemie And dost thou think no force is to be used to a man that he may be delivered from the perâ—…itiousnesse of his errour when as we know God himself doth so in many Examples and speaking on that point he saith it must not be so much considered that a man is compelled as what that is to which he is compelled In this Epistle the Father answers some objections brought against compelling men as that this does no good to â—…ome as that this is persecution as that these Heretiques would not doe so c. so he writes in his 50. Epistle to Boniface and in his 204. Epist. to Donatus upon the same subject And in his Retractations he retracts this errour which he sometimes held and had writ of 〈◊〉 it did not please him that schismatickâ—…s should be compelled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
and occasion of this feare which displeases you made Catholiques by the lawes of the Emperours from Constantine down to these present Emperours How many did therefore remaine Donatists because they were there borne and no men did compell them to come out from them and to goe to the Catholique Church The terrour of these Lawes in the promulgation of which the Kings of the earth served the Lord did so profit all these that now others say thanks be to God who hath broken our bonds and hath translated us to the bond of peace others sory we did not know this to be the truth neither would we have learned it if we had been left to our libertie but feare made us attentive to know it Others say we were terrified from entring in by false feares which we should never have knowne to have been false but by entring in neither should we have entred in unlesse we had been compelled And so Augustine against Gaudentius speakes thus Whereas you thinke none must be forced to truth who are unwilling you are deceived not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God which makes those willing who when they were compelled were unwilling And in his books of Retractations he gives the experience of this fifth Reason as the ground of retracting what he had formerly writ and held in this point Learned Beza observed it in his time that Tolerations of sects and Libertie of conscience as it was called was the ground of filling Polonia and Transylvania with so many pestilent opinions which otherwise no people under the Sunne would have suffered and that if the Magistrate had tried by all meanes in Transylvania c. to have restrained that libertie they had not been brought to that condition which he judged no lesse miserable then Mahumetisme it selfe And he wishes that France had given Polonia an example of this one thing and showes the great difference between the peace and true liberty of conscience enjoyed at Geneva and in Polonia one granting Tolerations the other none So he shewes the benefit and good of compulsion I passe by that Augustine being taught by experience it selfe witnessed so often against the Donatists many to be of that disposition that they are by nothing more kept in dutie then by severity of Discipline so that what at first they left for feare of punishment afterwards they willingly cast away professing the sharpnesse used to have been very profitable We have seene also by our own experience in this intermysticall season though there hath been no formall Toleration yet for want of Government setled and people having been left to so great libertie multitudes are fallen and doe daily to Antinomianisme Anabaptisme Independencie yea to denie the Immortalitie of the Soule and then no expectation but many will fall more and more Independents and all kinde of Sectaries as long as they can have their libertie snuffe up the wind will not hearken to any way whereby they may receive satisfaction but if once the Magistrate declares and by laws concludes one way of Church-worship and Government then it may be they will heare Reason Men as long as they have any hopes will stand out who yet when they see no remedie will examine and consider Now what account God will exact for his Name prophaned for the Sacraments and Scriptures abused by the handling and administration of them who are not called and what answer must be made for the ruine of Soules harvest of sinne corruption of doctrine alwayes following the publike Toleration of heresies and schismes I humbly leave to be fully considered of and wisely prevented by the High Court of Parliament who must thinke that silence provokes and sufferance emboldens men to forsake Gods Truth and his Church even as in civill affaires the neglecting of justice maintains disorders 6. A Toleration of one or more different wayes of Churches and Church Government from the Church and Church Government established will be to this Kingdome very mischievous pernitious and destructive in regard of the effects and consequents of it how faire soever a Toleration may be pretended and how small soever the differences yet 't is of a vast and dreadfull consequence to this Kingdome Different Formes of Churches and Church Government in one state must needs lay a foundation of strife and division therein It is the admitting of a seed of perpetuall division within its selfe an opening a sluce to let in strife and contentions in all places publike and private Church and Common-wealth in Parliaments Corporations among the Ministers in Families Now how great an evill this is all wise states know and can stand with no Christian policie however it may agree with Machiavillian The different Interests and Principles of the Churches established and tolerated with other things concurrent especially in the partie tolerated apprehending themselves the weaker will be working in them to watch all advantages to grow and increase and to get into places and favour with great men and Princes as we see the Heretiques did in Ecclesiasticall Histories and the Arminians in the Netherlands with the Magistrates and will never rest working till they get the upper hand and suppresse the other But besides the continuall heart-burnings and divisions betweene the Ministers of the different Churches the people among themselves the husband and wife with the corruption of doctrine a Toleration will be a likely meanes of producing civill warres in this land and whereas now we have a warre between King and Parliament we may expect a warre amongst the people yea the Toleration desired would prove a mighty advantage for the Court party to make use of those sects and by enlarging some favours to them being the weaker partie to gain them by their help to overthrow the Government established and to advance the Prerogative the sad effects and mischiefes already without any formall Toleration of the different Churches and Governments doe appeare in the jealousies divisions delayes laying down of places in not being so active c. whereby the Court partie is strengthened Reformation hindred and the good partie weakned Now considering the many dangerous effects and consequents of a Toleration to this state and considering the small differences betweene the Apologists and the Presbyterians as themselves say and that they can for a need come to our Churches and partake in the Sacraments hold Communion with us as the Churches of Christ why should they have different Churches and Government allowed The Parliament upon so small a ground and needlesse a cause hath the lesse cause to give way to a Toleration which would certainely produce so great mischiefs and evils 7. Independencie and the Church way besides the evill of it in its selfe considered as being a schisme in forsaking the reformed Churches and constituting new the way of constituting Churches by the people the way of making their Ministers the refusing of beleevers and their children to the Sacraments
grace may that be tolerated what think you of many Arminian Tenets some Lutheran opinions Antinomian Doctrines and other dangerous points held by great Schollars as by Brentius Osiander Flaccius Illyricus may not some of these opinions stand with grace and might not some of these have grace and must these now be allowed to be preached in a Kingdome that hath established Articles of Religion and a Confession of Faith and shall such preachers gather people into Churches if all points may be preached and Churches allowed for all Doctrines that are not against fundamentals and that may stand with saving grace there will be a strange face of Protestant Reformed Churches infinite novelties may be broached and great stirs caused in a Kingdome I desire you in your Reply to state your lesser differences and to set downe your Boundaries what and what not and accordingly I shall answer In the meane time from these few hints you and the Reader may see besides the unlawfulnesse there 's difficultie where to fasten a Toleration Now in the close of my discourse against Toleration I take the humble boldnesse to represent to the Honourable Houses of Parliament that t is the Magistrates dutie not to suffer schismes heresies and other errours to grow and increase in the Church for as they are Magistrates they truly serve God whose Ministers they are and kisse the Son in revenging the injuries wantonly committed against God and his truth and in preserving the externall politie of Doctrine and manners one of the great services Princes and Parliament performe to Christ in reference to their great and high calling consists in making Lawes for the observing the Worship and Government of his House and by Lawes prohibiting all other worships and governments And I humbly beseech the Parliament seriously to consider the depths of Satan in this designe of a Toleration how this is now his last plot and designe and by it would undermine and frustrate the whole work of Reformation intended 't is his Master-piece for England and for the effecting of it he comes and moves not in Prelates and Bishops not in furious Anabaptists c. but in holy men excellent Preachers moderate and faire men not for a toleration of heresies and grosse opinions but an allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse this is candidus ille Diabolus as Luther speakes and mâ—…ridianus Diâ—…bolus as Iohannes Gersonius anâ—… Bâ—… expresse it comming under the merits of much suffering and well deserving clad in the white garments of Innocencie and Holinesse In a word could the devill effect a Toleration he would think he had gained well by the Reformation and made a good exchange of the Hierarchie to have a Toleration for it I am conâ—…ident of it upon serious thoughts and long searching into this point of the evils and mischiefe of a Toleration that if the devill had his choice whether the Hierarchie Ceremonies and Lyturgie should be established in this Kingdome or a Toleration granted he would chuse and preferre a Toleration before them and would willingly part with and give up all those for a Toleration of divers Sects and different Churches To conclude if the way of Independencie be of God and the Apologists can make that good let it be established by the Parliament and let 's all come to that if it be not why then should it be tolerated and why did the Apologists move for a Toleration before that ever it came to be debated and argued in the Assembly And now for a conclusion and closing up this Answer to the Apologeticall Narration I might as some Authors doe in answering Bookes gather together and draw up into one all the maine particulars of the Apologie animadverted upon and put them under certaine heads and ranke them in their severall formes and so present a Synopsis of them to both Houses and the Reader whereby they might have all in their eye at once see much in a little As 1. all the expressions of the high praises of themselves and their owne partie scattered up and downe in the Apologie 2. The Aspersions Depressions Insinuations both open and more secret of the Reformed Churches and of the Assembly 3. The crossings and interfearings of some passages in the book with others 4. The plaine and manifest untruths expressed in many pages 5. All the Reservations and Concealments of matters both of opinions and practises in the Church-way 6. The double doubtfull expressions both in words and matter 7. The mistating of the questions in difference both on their owne side and the Presbyterians stating their owne differences with the lowest and the Reformed Churches at the highest 8. The generall expressions without comming down to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which being deducted and extracted from the Apâ—…ie what remainâ—… behind saving some few argumenâ—…s hinted but a just testimoâ—… of the Parliament and Assembly with a 〈◊〉 character of the people and multitude and a brand upon the old separation which paâ—… also of the Parliament Assembly People and Separation 〈◊〉 brought in both the praise of 〈◊〉 and the dispraise of the other in reference to the magnifying and commending the more the 〈◊〉 and patience c. of the Apologists but I spare the wise Reader may observe the passages and I have animadverted upon them all along in my Answer I could have made one part of my Answer to this Apologie 〈◊〉 strange though â—…ue paraphrase upon it and andinâ—… 〈◊〉 have 〈◊〉 the Narration of themselves for the most part contrary But I shall reserve that with some other things I have yet to say iâ—… matter of fact till I put out my Rejoynder to their Reply In 〈◊〉 meane 〈◊〉 I shall conclude this Antapologie with â—…rning my 〈…〉 by dissolving your Churches and comming in to us and that you may repent and recall this Apologie I will represent to you the greatnesse of your sin and folly in making the Apologie and it stands in these particulars 1. It was an unseasonable disorderly work for the time and way of it 2. 'T is a Narration full of mentall Reservations high praises of your selves but censuring and scandalizing the Reformed Churches of Christ. 3. There are many untruths in it and that not only where you make naked relations oâ—… things but where you make professions before God and the world yea â—…here you make serious Invocations of God to aâ—…est them and men also and all this is done publikely by printing and deliberately and upon a designe to take the more with the people and to make way the better for a â—…oleration 4. There is a breach of the solemne Covenant subscribed by you especially in that clause of the first branch we shall endeavour to bring the Churches of God in the three Kingdomes to the neerest Conjunction and Uniformitie in Relegion Confission of Faith and Forme of Church-Government in stead of which before ever you â—…o much as tried and endeavoured it by debating those
godly Protestant party and of much distracting them and of making severall interests Whence have come all the rents and divisions to speake of in the godly Protestant party all the â—…ets stopps and delayes in the intended Reformation but from you and by occasion and meanes of you The authority of your names holding these opinions having the reputation of Schollars and of excellent Preachers whereby you are cryed up of many and so much followed your interest and favour in too many considerable persons have drawne so much had it not been for your sakes these rents and divisions had never come to this head there had not been that connivance nor such delayes of setling governement c. most of the rest of your way were in comparison contemptible both for name and gifts and could not have done that hurt and why then in a time by your own confession of absolute necessity of the neerest union and conjunction and all little enough to effect that Reformation intended and so long contended for against a common adversary that had both present possession to plead for it selfe power to support it and had injoyed a long continued settlement which had rooted it in the hearts of men have you done so much by preaching and acting to rend and divide the godly protestant party there was no absolute necessity just at that time when you did preach and stirre for your way for you to have done so affirmatives though they doe bind semper yet not ad semper there were greater truths in doctrine and in Reformation of government which you might have preached on for that time but there was an absolute necessity of the neerest union and conjunction I heartily with this first Reason and ground deepely layed to heart by you and then I know you must greatly repent for what you have done in this particular since your returne into England and had not God been and were he not the more gracious and better to us then ordinary your carriage and what hath been by your meanes would have spoiled our Reformation and hath done much to keepe the common Adversary in his present possession and long continued settlement but I pray God humble you for it and forgive you and seeing you knew and considered that it was the second blow that makes the quarrell and that the beginning of strife would have been as the breaking in of waters why were you not contented with the giving of the first blow and the first occasion of the quarrell both by your former preaching and practising but to adde this second great blow the writing of this Apologeticall Narration which though it be not on your parts the beginning of strife yet it will prove as the breaking in of waters and as the kindling of a fire not likely to be put out in hast 2. And this seconded by the instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament to forbeare what might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference They having also by their Declarations to his Majesty professed their endeavour and desire to unite the Protestant party in this Kingdome that agree in fundamentall truths against Popery and other heresies and to have that respect to tender consciences as might prevent oppressions and inconveniences which hath formerly been I judge this ground seconding the former should have been powerfull with you to a deepe silence and forbearance every particular branch of it speaks strongly to you to forbeare what ever might any way be like to occasion or augment this unhappy difference Nay almost every word in it â—…s an argument to command The instant and continuall advices and conjurements of many honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament what might not all these have wrought and then take in also that they had by their Declarations to His Majestie c. and that they would have a respect to tender Consciences Now what could you almost have wished more or what better securitie for your selves and way A man would thinke all these might have commanded you not to have acted for your selves and way and certainly your fault was the greater in doing contrary and you are the more inexcusable had not this seconded the former yet your knowledge of the first was enough to have taken ingenuous spirits but this seconding the first it is too bad that you went contrary to the instant and continuall advices and conjurement of many Honourable wise and godly Personages of both Houses of Parliament As for those passages inserted in this Reason the Parliaments Declarations to his Majestie professing their endeavour and desire to unite the Protestant party in this Kingdome that agree in fundamentall truths and to have that respect to tender Consciences wherein you would insinuate that the Parliament had put you in some hopes of a Toleration and that grounded upon some passages in their Declarations had you named what Declarations speake so I could have perused and examined them and have returned you an answere I question it not from the words and sense but to put it out of doubt that the Parliament intends no Toleration in such words as having respect to tender consciences c. I referre you to the first and great Remonstrance and Declaration of the House of Commons wherein they declare the contrary and ingage themselves to the Kingdome against it answering to that as a Calumnie cast upon them to traduce their proceedings They infuse into the people that we meane to abolish all Church-Government and leave every man to his owne fancy for the Service and Worship of God absolving him of that obedience which he owes under God unto his Majestie whom we know to be intrusted with the Ecclesiasticall Law as well as with the temporall to regulate all the members of the Church of England by such rules of Order and Discipline as are established by Parliament which is his great Councell in all affaires both in Church and State And we doe here declare that it is farre from our purpose or desire to let loose the golden reynes of Discipline and Government in the Church to leave private persons or particular Congregations to take up what forme of Divine Service they please for we hold it requisite that there should be throughout the whole Realme a Conformity to that Order which the Lawes enjoyne according to the Word of God And we desire to unburthen the Consciences of men of needlesse and superstitious Ceremonies suppresse innovations and take away the monuments of idolatry And the better to effect the intended Reformation we desire there may be a generall Synod of the most grave pious learned and judicious Divines of this Island assisted with some from forraine parts professing the same Religion with us who may consider of all things necessary for the peace and good Government of the Church and represent the results of their Consultations
unto the Parliament to be there allowed of and confirmed and receive the stamp of authority thereby to find passage and obedience throughout the Kingdome Also I referre you to Declarations both of Lords and Commons about Uniformitie in Church-Government Worship c. intended by them And for the words as you expresse them here respect to tender Consciences as might prevent oppressions and inconveniences which had formerly been they interpret themselves implying a taking away the Ceremonies and other offensive things and a not inforcing and injoyning Subscriptions to all points in matter of Order and Externall Government as had formerly been but as for Tolerating different Churches and a different forme of Church-Government to be publikely exercised besides the established as I doe not beleeve that to be any part of their meaning in their Declarations so their words are expresse against it in the first Remonstrance and in some later Declarations besides that the Parliament well knowes a Toleration would bring in greater inconveniences to tender Consciences then can at first be imagined and would prove a farre greater mischiefe to the Church and to Reformation both in Doctrine and Government then the Episcopall 3. Together with that strict ingagement willingly entred into by us for these common ends with the rest of our brethren of the Ministery which though made to continue but ad placitum yet hath been saâ—…red to us As for this third ground alleadged by you for silence it prevailed no more with you then the former for notwithstanding this strict ingagement even since that time you have both preached and printed for your way namely Mr Borroughs Mr Bridge Mr Sympson and Mr Goodwin and many of the particulars formentioned have been preached since that agreement so that it seemes it hath not beene so sacred to you as you would make the Reader beleeve But if you answer you understand that engagement entred into with the Ministers was sacred to you and so observed as long as the agreement lasted but the particulars instanced in preached by you were since that agreement ceased by mutuall content I answer your words and the scope for which they are brought joyned to the precedent passages referre to a silence and forbearance till the time of putting forth this Apologie and that Parenthesis which though made to continue but ad placitum implies so much that though you were at libertie yet you tooke not that libertie But secondly I must mind you that the ground-worke laid by you by which you would the more commend your owne silence and moderation namely the agreement to continue but ad placitum was not so for it was agreed upon it should continue till both sides in a full meeting did declare the contrary and in case one side did transgresse by preaching c. none of the other side should take liberty to doe the like till the company was acquainted with it and the thing proved and the matters of difference not being taken up the agreement thereupon was declared to be null whereupon though some men included and particularly named at the agreement were complained of in a full meeting to have transgressed the agreement yet it was still continued notwithstanding some breach on the Independent side in reference to the publike union against the common enemy and for those common ends which was the first ground of it 3. I desire it may be considered of by Mr Borroughs Mr Sympson and M. Bridge whether some passages in some of their Sermons and Expositions about the Church way will not by calculating the time when they were preached and the time of the engagement for silence namely before the formall Declaration of the Companie in a publike meeting that the agreement ceased and that every man was left to his former libertie be found to be preached within the compasse of the time even before the mutuall strict engagement was declared null And because you here give the occasion by making this mutuall strict engagement between you and us one great ground of your deep silence I shall faithfully and impartially to my best remembrance relate that whole businesse of the agreement of the Ministers for silence the truth of which many Ministers then present upon the place can testifie also The Ministers of both sides both they and we desirous of Reformation in Church-Government and Worship being sensible how much our differences and divisions might distract the Parliament and hinder the taking away of Episcopall Government and the Reformation intended in a full and great meeting consulted together upon wayes to prevent it and by vote agreed upon these 1. That the Godly Ministers of the Citie and Countrey should continue the use of some part of the Liturgie namely what was best and least offensive because they found that the Bishops fought under that Banner and made use with the Gentrie and body of the common people to wrap up themselves in that suggesting that the Parliament would take away the Common Prayer Booke which they made use of to save their owne standing and to worke their owne ends the better And M. Goodwin ingenuously professed that he judged the moderate use of the Lyturgie in this juncture of things and for a time conduced much to the Reformation aimed at and were his Principles as ours that any prescribed Prayers might be used he would use it and saving his Judgement about Lyturgies his vote was to use it whereupon there being such a generall concurrence of Judgement amongst the Ministers some one or two Ministers in the Citie who were taken notice of wholly to disuse it and to have laid it aside in all Administrations were sent unto from the Company of Ministers and one of them came presently to whom the sence of the Company was represented and he dealt with to take it up againe and to use some part of the Prayers in the Lyturgie especially in the Administration of the Sacraments Secondly the Ministers finding that the preaching of some Lay-men Tradesmen and Mechanicks in the publique Congregations was a great stone of offence in the building of the Temple a way was agreed upon by the Ministers to deale with them and to take them off that practise and some of the Company judged to be most gratious and powerfull with them were chosen by the whole to deale with them and to acquaint them with the sense of the Ministers and some grounds against their practise especially at that time though the Company of Ministers who sent declared formally their judgement against the practise of it at all times Thirdly A mutuall silence was agreed upon for both sides both in preaching printing and conferring with the people and especially Parliament men of any of the points in difference betweene us but yet so that both they and we should joyne together to preach against the Anabaptists and rigid Brownists which these Apologists promised only they desired first to bring in a Narrative to us of all their opinions that