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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A27068	Whether parish congregations be true Christian churches and the capable consenting incumbents, be truly their pastors, or bishops over their flocks ... : written by Richard Baxter as an explication of some passages in his former writings, especially his Treatise of episcopacy, misunderstood and misapplied by some, and answering the strongest objections of some of them, especially a book called, Mr. Baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies, as by law required, and another called, A theological dialogue, or, Catholick communion once more defended, upon mens necessitating importunity / by Richard Baxter.	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.	1684 (1684)	Wing B1452; ESTC R16512	73,103	142

Communicant hath not so much more than I. XXXVI But say they then you are bound to av●●d s●andal by professing openly that you Communicate 〈◊〉 a Dissenter and not with the Church as established by Law Ans 1. Then I should falsly say that which I either think is otherwise or am not resolved in I tell you Few can truly say this if any 2. What need this when the open Profession of all Christians is That it is a Church and Worship of Christs making which they own and intend and none that is against them And when the Articles of the Church of England and the Ordination covenant own Scripture-sufficiency and disclaim all that is against Gods word Must we be supposed to renounce Religion when we meet to profess it And surely for disowning any thing which the Nonconformists judg unlawful all the Books written by them and all the notorious sufferings in twenty two years Ejection and Prosecution are no obscure Notification of their Judgments without speaking it at the Church ●oors or before the Assemblies Must I openly protest against Independency Anabaptistry or Presbytery if I dissent before the face of their Congregations if I will Communicate with them 3. But to stop your demand bef●re I Communicated in the Parish ●hurch where I now am I went to the Incumbent and told him that I would not draw him into danger or intrude against his will I had been ●●iled by the Kings Commission and after by the Lord Keeper to debate about Alteration in the Liturgy and Worship and Discipline and I thought that thereby I wa● by 〈◊〉 6 7 8. ipso facto Excommunicate but not bound to do Execution on my self and therefore if I were separated it should not be my act but I left it to his will He took time and upon advice admitted me Obj. But you must tell them that the Parish Church hath no dependance on the Bishops but as the Kings Officers and that it is Independent and then you fall not under our opposition Ans 1. How many Lawyers and Civilians do openly say as Crompton before Cosins Tables that all Church Government floweth from the King And doth that satisfie you 2. And why must the Parish Church and Pastor needs be Independent Will you have no Communion with Presbyterians 3. And what if it be dependent on the Diocesan as governour tho not as destroyer Is it any more destructive of its Essence than to be governed by a Classis or Council XXXVII As for your telling us W●●m the Canons e●c●mmunicate or 〈◊〉 Lay-chancellors Officials Surrogates Archdeac●ns c. exc●mmunicate what Oaths they imp●se c. tell them of it and not us who are not responsible for other mens deeds It no more concerneth our cause of Parochial Lay-communion than to tell us how bad men some Ministers are nor so much neither For I that willingly joyn in the Liturgy will not willingly if I know it so much as seem to own the Ministry of any man that is notoriously Insufficient Atheistical Heretical or so Malignant or Wicked as to do more hurt than good Avoid such and spare not XXXVIII Obj. They want the Peoples c●nsent and so are no Past●rs Ans The People shew their consent by ordinary Submission and Communion Obj. The People must be supposed to consent to the Law which maketh them no Pastors but the Bishops Curates Ans Both the Suppositions are before confuted both that the People are supposed to consent to any Law against Gods and that the Law maketh Curates to be no Pastors XXXIX To conclude the Objections about the Essence of Parish Churches 1. The question is not Whether there be not a sort of Diocesan Prelacy which nulleth them 2. Nor wh●ther there be not some men in England that write and plead for such Diocesan Churches as have no true Episcop●s pregis much less Episcopus 〈◊〉 under them but are 〈◊〉 Bishops in that Diocess Nor of what number power or interest these men are of against whom I have oft written 3. But whether the Law be on their side or against them for the old Diocesan Government of subordinate Pastors and Churches is to me n●w uncertain I did once incline most to the fi●●t sense of the Law but on sec●nd thoughts hope better of it and am not Lawyer good enough to be certain 4. But if it should be so I verily think ●●e main 〈◊〉 of the 〈…〉 and therefore 〈◊〉 not to renounce their P●rish ●overnment ●ut only to use it in subordination to the Bishop 5. And I am p●st doubt that all the Communicants of England are neither ●ound to decide this Law-doubt nor to understand it nor to believe that the Law hath altered the Government 6. And if they did believe it they ought to keep on in Church Assemblies according to Christs Law taking all that 's against it as void as long as they are put ●n no sin themselves nor the Church notoriously renounceth its ●ssentials 7. And if they were stated Members of other Churches e.g. the Gre●k the Dutch the French they might ●ccasionally Communicate in our Parishes transiently without examining the Pastors call and discipline but judging by possession and practice 8. And if they should prove no lawfully called Ministers their Office would be valid to those that blamelesly were deceived and knew it not 9. And if they were sure that they were no true Ministers they may joyn with them in all Worship belonging to Lay-Christians 10. But if they prove able godly Ministers of Christ tho faulty setled by Law to the advantage of Religion in a Christian Kingdom where all are commanded thus to maintain national Concord and the upholding those Churches is the very National possession of the Protestant Religion and it goeth for publick Disobedience and Scandal to forsake them and that at a time when many forsake them too for unjust grounds and by suffering for it stand to unwarrantable Accusations of them and sharply Censure those that do not as they and oppugne Peacemakers and all this after the old Nonconformists full Confutation of the Separatists unwarrantable way and the doleful experience of Subversion of all sorts of Government by the Prosecution of such mistakes I say If all this should be the case it is deeply to be considered XL. But the most effectual hindrance is the opinion of unlawfulness in j●yning in the Liturgy yet my last Objectors confess that It is lawful to some and that it is n●t Communion in it much less in all forms which they call unlawful t● all And the sober sort are loth to say t●at the Millions of Christians in England and Scotland who live where they can be in no other Churches should rather like Atheists live without all Church-Worship and local Communion And in gaining this I have gained the better half of what I pleaded for And they confess and so do I that publick Communion may be one mens duty and anot●●rs sin as circumstances vary

truly thank God and him that I am called to review them and to clear my sence before I die And I adjure the tearing persecuting sect to think no more strangely and odiously of our differences in this case than of the sharp contention of Paul and Barnabas or that men should scramble if Gold and Pearls were scattered in the streets where dogs and swine would never strive about them Gods servants would please him we are all of weak understandings The Wisest best know their weakness The rest are nearest the state of the Fool who rageth and is confident It is impossible but offence must come Luke 17.1 But wo wo wo to any who will make canons so extreme hard for men to agree in as terms of their Union and Communion and excommunicate all that say a word against any word ceremony circumstances or office of their train and when they have done cry out against men for not agreeing to every syllable which a thousand to one are uncapable of understanding and the better men understand them the more they dislike them A Short Answer to the Chief Objections in a Book ENTITULED A Theological Dialogue c. THE chief matter of this Book is already answered by the Holy Ghost 1 Cor. 1.10 1 Cor. 3. Rom. 16.16 17. Eph. 4.4 to the 17. Phil. 2.1 2 3. 1 Thes 5.12 13. John 17.22 23 24. And 1 Cor. 12. And Acts 20.30 The Spirit and Stile of it is answered in the third Chapter of James throughout I have nothing then to do but to answer the pretended argumentation of it For the Author shall not draw me from my Defensive part to play the part of a plaintif against others or to wast my time in altercations and spend many sheets to tell the world that another man hath not skill to speak sence and that he seduceth others by ambiguous words and by confusions Obj. 1. To prove us sinful for being members of the Church of England he saith Pag. 15. Is he not by Communion in the Sacarment of Baptisme made a member Page 13. Is not Baptisme according to the Liturgy a symbol of incorporation into the Church of England Confirmation another receiving the Lords Supper another symbol c. Ans 1. Baptism as such incorporateth no man into any particular Church but only into the universal as it did the Eunuch Acts 8. 2. The ceremonies or circumstantials of Baptism only shew what men submit to rather than to be unbaptized and not what particular Church they are of 3. This objection would insinuate that all that are Baptized in the publick manner in England were thereby incorporated into an unlawful Church which they must by being rebaptized or by open renunciation disclaim And so that it is not Lawful to Communicate with any that were Baptized in the Parish Church till they have repented it or are Rebaptized or Penitent openly And if you must have all in England renounce their Baptism before you will take their Communion for lawful the same reason will hold against your Communion with all the rest of the Churches on Earth And when you cut off your self from all saving a shred are you a Member of the undivided Body of Christ 4. If our Baptism in England doth incorporate into their Church which you suppose is no Church being a false Church doth not Baptism into your Church incorporate Persons into yours And what then if your Schism prove a Sin What if Rebaptizing prove a Sin What if the Covenant descri●ed by your Client to obey none but Christ in matters belonging to Worship prove a Sin are they all guilty of all these and such others Obj. II. All that are liable to a Church Excommunication when they have offended are declared Members of the Church But all Communicants and Native Inhabitants are so Therefore the Law hath excepted none How comes it to pass that the Church hath power of excommunicating any Person but by vertue of Incorporation which she hath by the same Law He that is not in the Church how comes he to be cast out Is he not by Communion in the Sacrament of baptism made a Member Ans 1. Doth their esteeming you a Member prove that you are so 2. You know that they excommunicate Papists and Atheists who deride them for it and say It 's a strange Church that will cast us out because they cannot compel us to come in 3. If this be a good argument that all are of their Church that are excommunicate then you are either safe from Excommunication or of their Church whether you will or not If to make good your argument you will aver that no Separatist Independent Presbyterian Anabaptist or Quaker was ever excommunicate or imprisoned as such you will change the Current of Intelligence and comfort many that can believe you and teach them how to escape a Prison for the time to come But if not you make your self and all these parties incorporate Members of the Church of England as well as me 4. Do you think a Lay Civilian by Excommunicating can prove or make a man a member of any Church against his will Then mens Argument against Parish Churches for want of consent is void They may be made such against their wills 5. But tho few men d●sl●ke the Lay-Excommunicators and Absolvers more than I do nor grudge more at the Bishops and Deans who use them and let them put their names to the Excommunications especially of the poor Church-Wardens for not swearing c. yet let us not render them causelesly ridiculou● I imagine that they excommunicate not known Papists Anabaptists and such like out of their Church who they know were never in it but out of the Universal Church If this be not their sense let them give it you themselves for I am not bound to be their Interpreter And yet to moderate our Censures of them I 'le tell you a wonder Within this hour I received a Letter of credible Intelligence of a Chancellor who hearing of a Conventicle not presented by the Church-Wardens and being told that they met to repeat the publick Sermon said God forbid that they should be hindered Obj. III. Page 8. A Church in a sense is a Christian Kingdom that is a Royal Nation under Christ their King But there is no such Gospel-Church in your sense for there was neither Christian Kingdom nor King in the Ap●stl●s days Ans The Institution may be in the Gospel before the existence Christian Kings and Kingdoms are neither unlawful nor needless because there were none then The Prophets not only foretel that Nations shall come in to Christ and serve him but that all Nations that do it not shall perish And Christs Commission to his Apostles was To go and Disciple all Nations as much as in them lay baptizing them Nations as such were first to be discipled and then baptized Infants are part of Nations And Matth. 23. Christ would have gathered Jerusalems Children all the Jewish

Schism and Covenant-breaking in me whatever it is in others XLVI Obj. But you swore against Prelacy and Liturgy and now you strengthen them Ans 1. As the Covenant was made the terms or test of national Church Union excluding all the Episcopal who were half the Kingdom and more I think it was a rash sinful Engine of unavoidable division But when I took it it was not so imposed but offered to them that were of that mind and I saw not then that snare 2. I never swore against the Common-Prayer nor against the Englsh frame of Prelacy much less all Episcopacy any further than in my place and calling to endeavour Reformation according to the word of God and the example of the best reformed churches And this I have endeavoured to the utmost of my power perhaps more than my accusers And 3. There is much good in the Liturgy Parish Order and Government I never did covenant against that and therefore the Ministers who laboured for Reformation and Concord 1660 and 1661 thought they kept their covenant by craving some amendments and not an abolition and if we did think any thing to be bad that was good we must not be obstinate in that error forsaking the good which is our duty is not the way to amend any sin or error avoiding Gods publick Worship and living like Atheists save in private is not the way to amend the faults of publick Worship or Government Praying to God for what we want and owning the Scriptures and Christian Religion and communicating with Christians on lawful terms is not encouraging any sin in church Priests or Prelates unless men by our duty will be encouraged to sin and we must not forsake duty to avoid such mens encouragement the sons of the Coal are most angry with those that come nearest to them in all things save their sin and error and say those that stand afar off cannot hurt them I do not just●fie all that is in every Assembly that I join with must I needs renounce Local communion with every Independent Presbyterian or Anabaptist church that I dissent from for fear of strengthning them I covenanted as much against Schism as faulty Prelacy and yet if I must join with no church that is guilty of Schism alas whither shall I go 4. I humbly desire you to examine whether your way be not a breach of the covenant you plead not only as it advantageth Prophaneness Popery and Schism but as it strengtheneth that which you say I strengthen he knoweth not England who knoweth not that perceiving the error of unwarrantable separation and the unjust accusations of the Liturgy and churches used by very many besides some failings in some private churches hath been and is a grand cause of encouraging too great a number even to superconformity and to the fierce opposition of us and to the utmost confidence in their own way and as you charge me more than others as drawing more to the communion of Godly Protestant Parish Ministers that is to christian catholick love peace and communion So do the Sons of the Coal the superconformists more fiercely revile me as stopping more than you have done from their extremities Gods Word is a sufficient rule keep to that and fear not breaking any self-made laws XLVII Obj. But by this latitude you may join with Papists and say you judg of them according to Christs description Ans I answered this in the former book When I joyn with any church as a church I join with them as meeting to profess and practice christian faith and worship their by faults I own not But if they openly profess Idolatry or Heresie instead of Worship and Faith or if they meet to practice any sin which renders the whole church or worship rejected by God I must not assemble with them but avoid them which I must not do for tolerable failings lest I avoid all the world I say again I will cast away my Wine or Broth for Poyson in it which I will not do for a fly If the church renounce Christs description in the essentials notoriously I will not call it a church against their own consent But if they do it only in some Accident or Integrals I will only disown those faults XLVIII Obj. But say they p. 13.14 It is impossible there should be two national churches at least in one nation therefore by joining with a Parish you can be no part of the national church tho we confess that if you join with a Parish Assembly that forms it self into a compleat single church and the people ●onsent to take the Parish Minister for their Pastor and the Minister should exercise the whole power of a Pastor in this Parish church Mr. B. may hold communion with this Parish church and not own the Diocesan constitution Ans Of two churches in one assembly I spake before 1. Doth this Author think that exercise of power is as essential to a Minister as Power Yea that it must be the whole power that is exercised and so that no one is a true Pastor among the Presbyterians when the Classis exerciseth the highest part of the Power nor in Helvetia where Discipline is unexercised nor in England from the first Reformation Were all the Conformists that submitted to Diocesans no Church-Pastors nor no Independents whose Churches having many Pastors and Elders no one exerciseth no nor hath more than part of the power Integrity and essentiality office and exercise are not all one 2. All good Ministers that I know in the Parish Assemblies do consent to the Pastoral Office and the people love them and shew their consent by ordinary Communion and they exercise all essential to the office tho under the restraints of Government not owning in consent destructive but governing Diocesans some as de jure divino lawful some as best some as necessary many as merely impowered to a cogent Government by the King and doth not your concession imply that these are true Churches of intolerable men I speak not 3. What you confidently deny is certainly true There may be two national churches in one nation if not three that is the word is equivocal and hath divers sences and it is not called national because all persons in the nation are of it but because that the diffused parts of the Nation own it formally in a publick national relation 1. A Christian Kingdom as such is by many called a national Church thus England is such 2. A coalition of the most or all the publick Ministers in a Nation in Synodical Agreements for Communion as such is called a National Church such also is England 3. The subjection of the most of the Clergy in a nation by consent to some Ecclesiastical Primate Patriarch or other constitutive governing Head as a Bishop is in his Diocess may make a national Church in another sence The same men may be of divers of these equivocal Churches or if part be for one form and part

for another yet agreeing in the same ordinary external Communion one part may be called national as well as the other The question is de ●omine the name equivocal from diversity of relations I own 1. A Christian Kingdom 2. I own a national association of Parish Churches and Pastors 3. Tho these submit to Diocesan superiority and be parts of a Diocess but true single Churches I do not therefore separate from them 4 A national Church headed by one constitutive pastoral Head I disown call which you will the national Church But saith he of his approved parish Church P. 14. Such a Church a●●i●meth to it self all that past●ral p●wer that in pursuance of Canon and Statute Law is fixed in the Bishop Ans Incogitantly spoken Do all Independents assume the power of Ordination Jurisdiction over others Citations Licencing Subspendings Degradings silencings instituting inducting c. which are so fixed on the Bishop If none of this be pastoral power then the appropriating it is no depriving parish Ministers of pastoral power and to be under Magistrates power nulls not the pastors XLIX What he saith about unlawful terms of Communion p 21. c. in the instances of kneeling putting off the hat standing up c. I answer 1. The Author all along seemeth to forget that I am not accusing him not telling every man his duty but only giving the Reasons of my own and such others practice so they make a long ado to vindicate him whose Manuscript I answered and say His question was only whether it be lawful to communicate with the churches as setled by Law and not in other respects When I ever told them I meddle with none of their Questions but my own viz 1. Whether I and such other do well or ill in that communion we hold with the Parish Churches 2. Whether all Protestants in England are bound in conscience to renounce and avoid Communion in the Liturgy with all Parish Churches and Chappels and rather to give over all church worship I only gave my Reasons why that Manuscript divulged and boasted of as unanswerable changed not my Judgment and I answered that in his Arguments which went further than the question put by them and assaulted my own assertions having before in my Christian Directory and cure of Church divisions without naming him fully answered his printed Reasons to prove it unlawful to use an imposed form or Liturgy especially because Ministers must use their own gifts But if any man believe that it is a sin to communicate kneeling or standing or sitting unless he lye down as Christ did or at any time save at a feast or supper or any where save in an Inn or an upper room or with any women or more than twelve or if they think it sin to kneel at prayer or be uncovered or to sing Psalms in our Metre and Tunes whether these men should separate from all the Churches that will not receive them in their own way or how far they do well or ill that will not let every man do what he will is none of the case that I have before me It will not follow that I must separate from a Church that bids me kneel and be uncovered c. because you take it to be sin put not your measures on all others And here because same maketh Mr. Faldo the Author of the Vindication which I answered that I may so far vindicate him as to shew that it 's ●earce likely I ask whether if Mr. Faldo did well as a pastor to keep up a church at Barn●● many years which would not endure the singing of a psalm of praise to God but constantly forbore it tho his Judgment was against them besides that many of them were not only against Infant Baptism but f●rther differ'd in other things was this communion more lawful or laudable than with honest parish Ministers in the Liturgy Did he the whole office of a pastor What if the Bishop had forbid him to sing ●salms Is not the Church State more concerned in the whole congregation than in an absent Bishop what greater omission or defect is there in many Parish-Churches I again say that I am so far of the Judgment of Hildersham John Ball c. that I had rather joyn caeteris paribus in a Church that useth the Psalms Chapters and all the Lords-day Prayers in the Liturgy before Sermon than one that only giveth us one Psalm or none and a Pulpit-prayer and a Sermon without all the rest of Church Worship L. I will conclude all with repeating a little of the Explication of my misused writings I. The pastoral Oversight of the Laity by the Elders or Bishops of the several Flocks is of Christs Institution and belongs to all true Presbyters And tho in necessity it may be done by divers transient Ministers pro tempore most regularly every Church should have it s stated Pastors II. Where such Churches are large the work requireth many Ministers where each one hath but part of the Charge III. Reason and Church-consent among these made one a President over the rest and called him the Bishop pecularly if it were in Marks days as Hierom saith it was in John's And tho this be not essential to a Church it is lawful and fit and at last it grew to so great a Reputation and Opinion of necessity that all Churches had such Bishops and gave them a Negative voice and ordained not without them and defined Churches as essentiated by Relation to them Ecclesia est plebs Episcopo adunata If now such men as J.O. Mr. Nye Dr. Goodwin c. should have in one Church six or seven young men of their own training up to be their Assistant-presbyters I do not think an Independent Church would take it for any crime that he should have a Negative voice in acts of Order and Discipline or that they should ordain Ministers therein without his Consent IV. By degrees single Congregations increased to as many as our great Parishes that have Chappels and tho still they communicated in the chief Church at some special times of the year they ordinarily met in divers places and the Presbyters officiated some in one meeting and some in another at first whosoever the Bishop daily sent but after their particular Tyths or Chappels were assigned to each yet all together were esteemed but one Church governed by one Bishop and his Colledg of Presbyters V. When they increased yet more and more fixed Chappels were assigned to fixed Presbyters but not as distinct Churches but parts of the Diocesan Church tho at last they were larger than one Bishop and Colledg could guide according to the first Institution VI. Yet long every Christian City had a Bishop and Church and every incorporate big Town like our Corporations or Market-Towns was called a City not because it had a Market as a reverend Slanderer seigneth me to lay but because Custom the master of Language called all Corporations and great