Selected quad for the lemma: kingdom_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
kingdom_n	cause_n	king_n	see_v	2,172	5	3.5543	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A75399	The ansvver of the Commons, to a petition, in the name of thousands wel-affected persons inhabiting the city of London, Westminster, borough of Southwarke, and hamlets, and places adjacent.	England and Wales. Parliament. House of Commons.	1648 (1648)	Wing A3289B; Thomason E468_27; ESTC R205391	15,650	16

nor is that saying understood by you for that the safety of the people is the Supreame Law is a direction to the Princes and Rulers of the people and to Kings not to the people at all for if the people should judge what is for the safety of the people the Governours were in vaine and you might as well say the Army should lead the Generall which your owne experience knowes to be monsterous and this House knowes no Supreame Authority but that of the King which we have sworne to defend and there cannot be two Supreames in one Kingdome as your selves acknowledge and it is impossible it should be for Parliaments sit not but at the Kings pleasure and therefore they wonder you should imagine such an authority in it And so you see your selves deceived both in the authority and cause fancied And we understand not what you meane by acting the highest which you might doe and if you intend thereby any violence to His Majesties Person which we suspect you doe we abhor the thought of so horrid an action and wish you to repent for such thoughts if they have entred into your minds D As you were deceived in your grounds for right reason flattering your selves with your private opinions so much more in such as you take from the proceedings of this House for the Judges were not condemned by it for declaring the King to be the Judge of safety but for the consequence they deduced from thence which was to levie Ship-money for you very well knew that there may be as there have been such suddaine accidents when it is impossible to call a Parliament whereby the safety of the Kingdome may be in danger and the time required for the King to provide the remedy lost and this your selves must needs acknowledge And we never denied the King a negative Voice as you say but we said he ought to consent to such good Laws as His two Houses should present to Him but that is not to deny Him a negative Voice And we must acknowledge there can be no Law of force without His consent and He must judge it good or else He is not bound to give His consent for otherwise His condition were worse then a Subject For taking away the Bishops votes out of the Lords House you know there was an Act with the consent of the King and Lords without which it could not have been done and though upon your importunate Petition this House said they would settle the Militia without the Lords doubting the violence then threatned it doth not follow they could have done it But we beleeve that thereby and by your tumults the Lords that remained were moved to joyne with us which otherwise they would not have done But these proceedings ought not to be drawne into example nor the consequences of these actions expected from us no more then your threats which caused many Members to depart sit silent or consent to what you would have If you account this House the Supreame Authority you ought no more to have threatned them then such as now sit for they were as much trusted by their Countries as those that remaine and their Countries that sent them cannot in justice be bound by what is done when their Trustees are driven away nor can a part remaining be the representative body of the people E You mistake Demonstrations for Suppositions and you extend the expressions of this House to your own desires to have them professe Supremacy to the King Lords beyond our meaning So you do us injury when you call our expressions indulgent that declare our judgement of the Right of the King and Lords and say they are weighed downe by those other proceedings of ours and so would brand us for double dealing and imposture with the people And we wonder since you know we pretend not to power to give an Oath nor judge a Crime but transmit it to the Lords for their judgement that you should against all example imagine such a power in this House which we never had nor can without horrid impiety assume And all judgements and punishments acted by the Lords or this House are done by power derived from the King and in His name as your selves well know and without which no obedience were due by the people to them or us And we cannot execute nor claime any more then we have by the knowne Law of the Land and by the graunts of His Majesty and former Princes And you would have such words as were used by us in cases of difference touching Priviledges claimed by us to out weigh such determinations as were made upon long consideration for it fals out often that though we have claimed something as of right belonging to us we have been satisfied of the contrary upon debate It s indeed impossible as you say that you should beleeve that it can consist with safety or freedome to be governed either by two or three Supreames and as impossible for you to beleeve that England hath been so governed or that there is any Supreame but the King the deniall whereof upon mens imaginations that it should not be so against all experience and the fundamentall constitutions of the Kingdome were too great folly and impudence and you ought not to conclude what the right is by the present practice against all Antiquity there having been many things acted in these times of distemper which cannot be justified in quiet times F The Kings Supremacy hath been alwaies acknowledged and the two Houses His great Councell And by advice of the Lords and request of the Commons such Lawes have been enacted by the Kings Predecessors as we professe to fight for and by this Government this Kingdome enjoyed the greatest stability and happinesse that hath been knowne And the Argument you use that the Negative of the King and Lords hinders Reformation may be used against all Governours when the people are unruly who charge their Governours with oppression and say they must not be Judges of it but the people which is a state of confusion not lawfull liberty nor is this constitution a bondage but the peoples security which by such principles of corrupt reason as you propound would be destroyed and violence and disorder established And you thereby discover your impatience to live under any Government but seeke to live after your owne will whereby you condemne the practice of all Christians in the best times and nullifie the Rules of subjection God hath prescribed G You must know that the taking of Armes by the King doth not cancell the obligation we have of Allegeance to His Majesty And it s a great errour in you to expect from us that we should alter the Government or injure Him And as its impossible for the Supreame Authority to erect a power equall to it selfe so that being acknowledged in the King it were great presumption and wickednesse in us to seeke to take it from Him nor can we And if

we take from Him what is not justly ours by force we gaine no right by it but guilt and infamy And we know that its for the good of all that the King have His right and it tends to the destruction of the whole people to keepe it from Him And you see in the Divine Story that when there was no King in Israel Iudges 17.6 every man did what he pleased and sithence the Scriptures have given such titles to Kings and expressed the necessity of their calling and the people esteeme them the breath of their nostrils and the publique safety bound up in that of their Kings it s a strange Apostacy in you against all duty Oathes and examples of Godly men in all ages to vilifie your Soveraigne to whom onely you have sworne Allegeance with the tearmes of single person publique Officer and you forget that there is no slavery equall to Faction nor any sure remedy for Faction but Monarchy You know you are not the whole people and that more differ from you in this opinion then joyne with you and that its more necessary you should be reconciled then wasted by continuall divisions H While you hold your selves guilty of punishments and would have our Authority to be your indempnity you betray your great folly and disloyalty Can you with a good conscience breake the Lawes you are subject to and if you have committed murder and Treason against the Laws doubtlesse our Authority cannot excuse you against God nor the Law and though force might secure you from punishment it cannot from guilt nor the wrath of God whom you have offended being perswaded as you are that your actions were murder and treason by the Law of the Land and your consciences cannot acquit you from doing actions against wicked persons tyrants and oppressors they being not judged so by the Law and you may as well use that reason against us if you like not our procedings as against His Majesty And if you and every man may with a good conscience kill and destroy such as you judge oppressors Laws are to no purpose and where God hath not given the sword it s no lesse then Rebellion to use it and it s a most prophane and more then heathenish barbarisme to professe such a destructive Principle Know this that no man hath power of the life of another but where the Law hath given it he stands and fals to his owne Master and if you kill against the Law be assured your consciences cannot acquit you for you have no right to the sword and he dies as innocent that dies by your hands in such cases I You say the Personall Treaty hath been cried up most by such as have been been disaffected to us we should be sorry that such as were best affected to us should be lesse desirous of peace then any which t is impossible to have without a Treaty And we are sorry to see you manifest an affection tending to the destruction of your Country to disswade us from a Treaty and offer such considerations of impossibilities to have a Peace as are the present force upon the King and the Provocations used to him and you make the feare of your owne guilt a cause to continue the War as if Christians could never forget offences nor wise Princes pardon nor prefer what 's best for their people which is Peace but seeke private revenge before publique good You would not have a Treaty nor Peace with the King because you have offended Him and this House beleeves that some Malignant persons that are void of all Christianity and affection to their Country have inserted these uncharitable and bloody Principles And as you bring forth the examples of former Kings breaking their words so you should remember likewise there could never be rest to the Kingdome in former dissentions till Kings were restored and as we know not any underhand dealing by the King in former Treaties which you talke of so that expression you mention of designes on foot to make the Bils passed fruitlesse was never intended to reflect on the King but on His Ministers And whiles you take notice of the risings and Victories you might take notice that you cannot see when there will be an end of such risings for you did not expect them a year since and what another year may produce we cannot tell and we may fear God will not blesse us longer with Victories if we be enemies to Peace K Your standing amazed proceedes from your mistakes and while you pretend danger from the Kings Party as enraged against you the expressions of your passions against them appeares more criminall then what you charge them with and doth not become such as professe to fight for Religion and Liberty L We give you our sence of the Particulars mentioned by you which you say would satisfie all serious people of all parties and hope that will silence you for the time to come 1. We cannot pretend to the Supreame Authority of the people in this House it being in the King by Law and the constant submission of the people we having onely their Petitionary power as all Parliaments acknowledge And to deny the Negative of the King and Lords were Robbery when we take that is not due to us and Rebellion and disobedience so to usurpe on our King the Father of our Country and a breach of our trust to the people from whom we have no such power but only to consent to such things as shall be ordained by Common-councell that is by the King with the advice of the Lords 2 3. It s out of our power and not profitable for the Kingdome to have Parliaments every year as experience hath taught us and that is well provided for by Bill already And we shall be content to set a time for the end of this Parliament because it is against the fundamentall constitutions of the Kingdome and the Liberty of the Subject to have it perpetuall or longer 4. To exempt matters of Religion and Gods worship from coercive power becomes not a Christian State and is contrary to all example 5. That the Supreame Authority should not have power to presse Subjects stands not with reason nor safety of the Kingdome 6. To make all men alike and destroy all civill subordination as the Article tends to is contrary to the Laws and safety of this Kingdome 7. That the Commons should be freed from the jurisdiction of the Lords we conceive is the Law established and the triall by twelve men the liberty of the Commons Only upon appeales by Writ of Error a cause may be adjudged in the Lords House by the advice of the Judges and Kings Councell 8. The eighth is the Law already that c. 9. We shall endeavour to establish it 10. This shall be done as full as stands with the benefit of the Kingdome 11. This likewise we desire to effect so far as may stand with the preservation of the Kingdome 12. We shall take care to have the best use made of those grounds for the publique good 13. This we shall likewise take care to provide for 14. We thinke this fit to be done 15. We shall consider of the defects herein if any be 16. We know not a more equall way then Tythe for the Ministers and thinke any other way would be worse this being most agreeable to Scripture 17. We thinke you have no cause to complaine of this 18. Though future Parliaments cannot be bound by the present you need not doubt that any Parliament will abolish propriety unlesse it be to satisfie Tumults 19. For the Kings Authority is sufficiently knowne and His revenue must be taken care of but it may lawfully increase and cannot be diminished without injustice and damage to the Kingdome 20. This ought to be examined and reformed if there be cause 21. We do not esteeme all men oppressed that were sentenced in Star-Chamber High Commission and Councell-Boord but for such as have been they ought to be repaired according to Law and Justice 22. All Committees shall be abolished and matters left to ordinary proceeding for the Kingdome cannot be quiet untill it be done 23. We shall not follow the examples of former ill Parliaments and take you heed you do not presse us to it 24. It s already answered 25. We wonder you should confesse your selves guilty of Treason and cry for severity upon those that desire not mercy and if we put them to death without breach of any Law they die innocent and we shall be guilty of their blood 26. Would you have all Taxes laid downe and an Army kept up and would you have men punished for offences and your selves spared you know the Judges are sworne to do according to Law and do you thinke they can acquit the guilty as you judge your selves to be against their Conscience upon our direction and should we direct them against Law and pretend zeale for Law you see what reason there is for an Act of Oblivion and no doubt the History of these times will be written and posterity will judge and if you have broken the Law as you seeme to confesse it all the pretences in the world cannot alter the fact 27. In the War no doubt many innocent persons have suffered by your hands as well as by the Kings and selfe-justifications and boastings will not appease the wrath of God in the meane time there must be an end of War and Gods and the Kings mercy implored We know the happinesse of Peace and the misery of War and the people will soone find if we be a meanes to continue the War whence their sufferings have come and we have just cause to feare we shall find a greater losse of honor then yet we have discerned and you that account your selves the people will find more against you then for you FINIS