NOVICE. This it may be is meant of hereticall Princes IESVITE Indeed it is first meant of them And if our Catholikes in England and other places had as much power as they haue right they would not endure hereticall Princes as they are constrained to doe till such time as opportunitie shall serue to free themselues from them for otherwise they are taught by vs that to suffer an hereticall or infidell Prince who laboureth to draw men vnto his Sect is to expose Religion vnto euident perill which Christians ought not to doe And Father Suarez worthily proueth That it appertaineth vnto the Pope to defend the subiects of an hereticall Prince and that by his power he may depriue such a Prince of his Kingdome chase him out of it absolue his subiects from their oath of allegeance And herewith agreeth Father Gregory of Valentia writing That temporall domination and superioritie ouer subiects by the sentence of the Pope may be taken away from Heretikes And the reason of it is That if they may bee depriued of their liues much more of their estates and consequently of all superioritie ouer others and that they which are excommunicated for Heresie incurre de facto the depriuation of politicke power and that their subiects are not onely absolued from their oath of allegeance but are also forbidden to keep it And that if the Iudge hath not yet pronounced the sentence of Excommunication this paine is neuerthelesse incurred if the crime of Heresie be so notorious that it cannot be hid and then it is lawfull for the subiect to deny obedience to his hereticall Lord much lesse is he bound thereunto NOVICE. Truly these are notable Maximes insomuch that although the Pope hath not pronounced expresse sentence of Excommunication against the Kings of Great Britaine of Denmarke and others such like and though their subiects are not expresly forbidden to obey them yet now I learne of you for to teach them vpon occasion that it is in their libertie eyther to doe or not to doe it without scruple of conscience IESVITE I haue giuen thee for it the very words of our Masters NOVICE. But doe they extend this power also against Catholike Kings and Princes IESVITE They doe for Father Suarez conioyneth him that is peruerse in his manners with the hereticall Prince And Cardinall Bellarmine cleareth thee of all doubt The Prince saith he when he is Catholike in faith and beleefe but of such euill manners that he is hurtfull vnto Religion or to the Church may be remoued and reduced to the ranke of other sheepe by the Pastor of the Church NOVICE. May this be done in any other case IESVITE The Pope may also command Kings to punish Heretickes and Schismatickes and if they doe it not he may constraine them by Excommunication Now I taught thee before the consequences of Excommunication which wee haue sufficiently demonstrated in the proceedings against Henry the third King of France concerning whom Charles Scribanius one of our principall Fathers at Antwerp in his Amphitheater of Honor thus refuted those which found fault with the Popes euill-entreating him If saith he a Denis a Machanidas an Aristotimus monsters of ages should oppresse France shall there be no high Bishop found so hardy as to animate a Dion a Timolcon a Philopoemon an Helematus If more monsters held the Commonwealth in captiuitie shall no Thrasibulus set to an helping hand The violence of Tarquin in the bed of Collatine gaue a iust cause and shall there none be met withall to depose and abolish out of France a tyrant King that oppresseth the liberty c Shall there not some sword-man at least rise vp against this beast No Pope that will deliuer so noble a Kingdome NOVICE. It seemeth to me that they of our Society which answered Anti-Coton deny Charles Scribanius to be the Author of that Booke and albeit Father Eudaemono-Iohannes confesseth that our Society is much indebted to the Author for defending it with so learned a volume yet hee maintaineth how Anti-Coton cannot proue his coniecture that Scribanius was the Author of it by any euidence IESVITE Therein he was deceiued for by the Index of the Bookes of our Societie composed by Father Ribadeneira hee shall finde that Charles Scribanius hath shewed what knowledge hee had in humane learning by his bookes of the Amphitheater of Honor against the accusations of the Caluinists NOVICE. Are wee the subiects of Princes where wee were borne or where we liue IESVITE Of neyther for wee are Clerkes NOVICE. Doth it necessarily follow that if we be Clerkes then wee are not their subiects IESVITE Yes very clearly For it cannot be proued saith our Bellarmine that the Kings of this age are lawfull superiors and Iudges of Clerkes if by the same meane it be not proued that children are aboue their fathers sheepe aboue their pastor things temporall aboue spirituall NOVICE. But is it not to be vnderstood of spirituall things only that Clerks are not subiect to secular Princes NOVICE. Not onely saith the same Author in spirituall things but also in temporall is the Priest to be gouerned by his Ecclesiasticall superior and it cannot bee that in temporall things hee should acknowledge the secular Prince because no man can serue two Masters And as Father Suarez writeth The ciuill Lawes of Princes and Magistrates doe not oblige Clerks neyther as touching the power of constraint nor as touching the power of direction by force of the laicall iurisdiction onely they oblige them by force of reason nor can Kings oblige Clerkes to those lawes particularly imposed Now wee vnderstand obligation by force of reason when the authoritie of the Canons or daineth that such lawes are to be obserued by Clerkes but they are free from the vertue and proper obligation of such lawes The same man after hee hath proued that Clerkes were committed to Peter draweth this necessary consequence from those words of our Sauiour No man can serue two Masters Mat. 6. that Clerkes are exempted from the temporall iurisdiction of Princes iure diuino because the same morall impotence noted in those words Hee shall hate the one and loue the other he shall cleaue to the one despise the other would be found if Clerkes were subiects according to the body both to the pope and to the King Whence he euidently concludeth that Clerkes are absolutely exempted from the temporall Iurisdiction of princes by reason that that Iurisdiction is exercised towards subiects in regard of the body and consequently in regard of all things which are ordained for a conuenient conseruation of the body if Clerkes then be exempted from the iurisdiction of Princes as touching their bodies certainly they are exempted from their temporall Iurisdiction NOVICE. Doth it not follow now of this that so many Ecclesiasticks as are made in a Kingdome or Common-wealth so many subiects is the Prince depriued of IESVITE Cardinall Bellarmine
any manner that he can But it is otherwise of a King that raigneth in peace and that vexeth the Common-wealth and is hurtfull vnto it by other meanes for then there is no place for defence by force or for plots against the life of the King because the Common-wealth doth not then suffer any actuall violence which it were lawfull to repell with violence NOVICE. What must be done then in this case where the Prince otherwise lawfull commeth to such a passe That hee ruineth the Common-wealth spoyleth men of their goods despiseth Religion and the publike Lawes maketh a vertue of pride and holdeth impietie against God to be the greatest valor IESVITE Thou knowest what Father Mariana from whom thou hadst this question bringeth for answer thereunto namely That it is not to be dissembled but the surest meane to remedy it is the publike way of Assemblies wherein by a common consent may be deliberated what shall be done The Prince shall first be admonished and if he reiect the medicine and that there resteth no farther hope of amendment the sentence being pronounced it shall be lawfull for the Common-wealth to deny him obedience and because that warre will necessarily ensue thereupon armes must be taken vp money raised and if otherwise it cannot be done by the right of defence the Common-wealth by its owne proper authoritie or by a greater may kill the Prince declared a publicke enemy NOVICE. But is not this a priuate opinion of that Father which is not to be followed IESVITE No for if hee had not proceeded farther none of ours would euer haue contradicted him Father Suarez teacheth the same doctrine very amply whereof behold here the first ground which is That if a lawfull King doth gouerne tyrannically and that the King dome hath no other meane of defence but by deposing and expelling the King the whole Common-wealth by a common consent of the Townes and principall persons of the Kingdome may depose the King as well by vertue of the law of Nature whereby it is permitted to repell force with force as because that necessary case of the proper conseruation of the common-wealth is alwayes held to be excepted in that first accord by which the Common-wealth transferred its power to the King NOVICE. Doth it follow hereupon that the Common-wealth hath power to put this King to death IESVITE That ground being laid we must say that after the sentence of condemnation touching the depriuation of the Kingdome giuen by a lawfull power or that which is all one after a declaratory sentence of the crime which of right hath imposed such a paine he which hath pronounced the sentence or he vnto whom he hath giuen commission to execute it may depriue the King of the Kingdome euen by putting him to death if otherwise he cannot or if the iust sentence doth also extend to that paine Howbeit the deposed King cannot be killed by any priuate person whatsoeuer no nor be expelled by force till he be commanded vnto it or that the generall commission be declared by sentence or of right The first part euidently followeth vpon that precedent principle for hee that may iustly condemne any one may likewise execute the sentence eyther by himselfe or by helps necessary thereunto otherwise that power would be frustratory in being able to decide the right without the ability of an efficacious constraint And as the minister of a King doth well to kill a man by the Kings commandement because that then he executeth the Kings power rather then his owne so when the Common-wealth may iustly depose the King the ministers thereof doe well to constraine the King or to kill him if it be necessary because then they doe it no longer by priuate but by publike authority And therefore Soto said well That although it be not lawfull for any priuate man whatsoeuer to kill him that is a Tyrant in his gouernment yet when the sentence is giuen one may establish for the minister of the execution thereof whomsoeuer one will NOVICE. But what meaneth Mariana by that speach where he saith By the authoritie of the Common-wealth or of a greater what is that greater IESVITE He meaneth that which we all hold for most certaine namely that that power appertaineth to the Pope as to the superior hauing iurisdiction to correct Kings yea such as are soueraigne as well as their subiects Now though the Common-wealth or Kingdome considered in its owne nature and as it was amongst the Gentiles or as it is at this present amongst them hath the power as we haue said to defend it selfe from a tyrant King and for that effect to depose him if it be necessary yet Christian Kingdomes as touching that point haue some dependance on the soueraigne Bishop First because the Pope may forbid a Kingdome to depose the King without his knowledge and aduice and vnlesse he hath first beene informed of the cause c. Wherupon we read in Histories that alwayes in such cases Kingdomes haue consulted with the Pope or haue euen implored him to depose vnworthy or tyrant kings as we haue declared of Childeric King of France in the time of Pope Zacharie c. Secondly the Christian kingdome dependeth also on the Pope in this That the Pope may not onely counsell or consent that the kingdome may depose the King which is pernicious to it but may also command and constraine it to doe it when he iudgeth it necessary for the spirituall safety of the kingdome but especially to auoid heresies and schismes NOVICE. If the holy Father hauing consented to the deposition of a King or hauing ordained it yet doth not declare himselfe for the execution thereof shall it bee lawfull for the first Prince that will to make warre vpon him and inuade his kingdome IESVITE No. But then his lawfull successor if he be a Catholike hath that power or if he neglect it or that there be none the Cominalty of the kingdome shall succeed him prouided they be Catholikes and if they craue assistance of other Princes they may assist them howbeit if the Pope giue other Kings power to inuade the kingdome they may iustly doe it because then they shall neither want iust cause nor power NOVICE. What shal I answer vnto those which alledge Dauid that would not kill Saul but caused the Amalekite to be put to death for vaunting that he had slain him which obiect the mischiefes arriuing vnto the Common-weath by such facts which say that the reuerence of subiects towards their Princes is in danger if once they bee perswaded that they may punish their faults and that vnder such pretexts the publike peace shall often be disturbed by seditions and commotions one part of the people arming themselues against the other c. IESVITE So they dispute which take the tyrants part saith our Mariana but the aduocates for the people produce as many and as great reasons for them For the Common-wealth from whom
teacheth that as he which transferreth his dwelling into another towne or prouince ceaseth to be the subiect of that prince vnder whose domination he was before without doing him wrong So Princes haue no reason to complaine if they be depriued spite of their teeth of the right which they had vpon Clerkes before they were Clerkes because he vseth but his owne right that chooseth an estate which he thinketh most conuenient for him although by accident it followeth thereupon that the Prince be depriued of his subiect NOVICE. I would be loath that all Princes should know this secret for from thence I learne that they haue a State within their State no more depending on them then that of France doth on that of England And that their subiects without stirring out of their Countryes there enioying their estates may exempt themselues from their subiection and by other Maximes that they may also make themselues their superiours euen in temporall things though indirectly IESVITE Thou sayest right and vnderstandest the case well For iure ordinario as Father Suarez will teach thee not onely the Pope but the Bishop likewise is the Kings superior and euery King is subiect to his Bishop in spirituall things if he be not exempted from it by the pope and immediatly receiued vnder his protection and iurisdiction Now temporall subiection necessarily followeth spirituall as wee haue declared before For as the same man teacheth If the Church could not punish those that are spiritually subiect with temporall paines they would soone contemne the spirituall and that would fall out which is spoken of in the Prouerbs chap. 29. vers 15. The child which is left to his owne will confoundeth his mother Whence would ensue that the state of Christendome would not be well ordered nor had beene sufficiently prouided for if the Church had not power to constraine such rebels as will not obey her censures And it must not be said that the vengeance of crimes appertaineth to secular Princes and that it is enough that they haue this power because they themselnes may offend and haue need of correction And further because this vengeance doth not of it selfe appertaine to the ciuill Magistrate but so farre forth as the faults are contrary to ciuill ends the peace of the Common-wealth and humane iustice but to punish them as contrary to Religion and the saluation of soules that of it selfe appertaineth to the Ecclesiasticall power vnto which Principally appertaineth the faculty of vsing temporall paines for such corrections which power is much more necessary for the repression of Princes then of their Subiects NOVICE. You teach mee great mysteries which I should not easily haue apprehended without your direction and haue made mee to see that they which will betake themselues to our Order must subiect their vnderstanding by the vow of blind obedience But declare vnto me I pray you the ground of the exemption of Clerks from the subiection of Princes in the States where they were borne IESVITE Why it is grounded vpon the very law of Nature it selfe For the Ecclesiasticall power which is spirituall is in consequence by nature aboue the secular and therefore when need requireth can direct iudge and correct it but there is no reason that permitteth the secular to direct iudge or correct the spirituall NOVICE. I but if the election which one may make of an Ecclesiasticall estate doth not exempt the seruant from the subiection of his Lord why should the same estate depriue the King Prince or Common-wealth of their subiects IESVITE The tie which is betweene the Lord and the seruant is all in all farre greater then that which is betweene the Prince and the Subiect And that is the reason why clericature exempteth the Subiect from the subiection of the Prince or from the ciuill power yea though the superior opposeth it but not the seruant from the power of his Lord. Cardinall Bellarmin saith as much of the obligation betweene the debtor and the creditor NOVICE. If it bee so may a Clerke whatsoeuer hee doth or vndertaketh euen against the very persons of Princes themselues be guilty of humane treason IESVITE Father Emanuel Sa hath satisfied this question in few words The rebellion saith hee of a Clerke against his Prince is not treason because he is not his subiect NOVICE. I thinke those words were left out in the edition of Paris IESVITE They were indeed because at that time this matter was much stirred in by certaine Politicians who a great coile about it howbeit they continue still in the editions of Antwerp and Cullen But say hee had not written it it followeth well enough from this Maxime whereof we are agreed that Clerkes are not the subiects of Princes nor Princes in regard of them superior powers And then It is a generall rule that Ecclesiasticall persons are exempted from the secular iurisdiction not onely in Ecclesiasticall crimes but also in ciuill which cannot be denied saith Father Suarez without denying a principle of faith And so generall that it suffereth not according to him any exception of crime whatsoeuer Now if it be obiected That in some Kingdomes certaine crimes of Clerkes are excepted which the ciuill Magistrate may take knowledge of as the crime of high treason of coyning false money c. That is not by common right but by a particular priuiledge which Kings haue receiued from the Pope for there is no King nor secular Prince that can giue it NOVICE. But the Apostles and the first Ministers of the Christian Church subiected themselues to Kings and Princes payd them tribute and neuer went about to depose them IESVITE The times are to be distinguished For if the Christians did not in times past depose Nero Dioclesian Iulian the Apostata Valens the Arrian and such like it was because they wanted temporall forces for otherwise by right they might seeing that the Apostle in the 1. to the Cor. chap. 6. commandeth that new Iudges be established amongst the Christian to the end that the Christians might not bee constrained to plead before a Iudge that was a persecutor of Christ so would he haue commanded new Kings and Princes to haue beene made for the same reason if they had had power enough in their hands NOVICE. But why did not they vse cunning where power wanted IESVITE It was expedient then that the foundations of the Church should be laid in patience and suffering of death with so much the more miracle that it grew the greater being oppressed and diminishing in number yet euery day encreased Moreouer in those times it was not expedient to doe all that law and right permitted NOVICE. What doe law and right permit according to the doctrine of our Society IESVITE In all memory of men such as haue vndertaken the killing of Tyrants haue euer beene held in high estimation NOVICE. Whom meane you by tyrants that may be killed IESVITE The Theologians saith Father
Suarez thus distinguish Tyrants the first sort is of those which by force iniustly without all title occupy a Kingdome which truly are neither Kings nor Lords but onely hold the place and are as it were the shadowes of them The other sort is of those which though they be true Lords and possesse the Kingdome with a iust title yet as touching their cariage and manner of gouernment reigne tyrannically namely because that either neglecting the publike good they conuert all to their owne particular commodity or iniustly afflict their subiects with spoyling killing and peruerting or iniuriously commit such things or the like publikly and frequently NOVICE. May one with a good conscience kill both the one and other of these Tyrants IESVITE Of the first sort no man doubteth For all Theologians and Philosophers agree that they may be killed depriued of their liues and Principalities by any one whosoeuer For seeing that such a one rightly carrieth the name of a Tyrant and hath put on the humor of one let him at any rate be taken away and dispoiled of the power which he hath vsurped by violence So by good right Ahud hauing insinuated himselfe by presents into the fauour of Eglon King of the Moabites he killed him with the stab of a ponyard in his belly and deliuered his Countrimen from a cruell seruitude Father Suarez defendeth this opinion as the most common and receiued That such a Tyrant may be killed by any priuate person whatsoeuer that is a member of the State which suffereth vnder the tyranny if otherwise it cannot be deliuered from it And to that which Saint Augustin saith in the first Booke of The City of God how it is not lawfull to kill any person without publike administration he answereth learnedly That a priuate man which killeth such a Tyrant doth it not without publike administration because he doth it either by the authority of the Common-wealth tacitely consenting thereto or he doth it by the authority of God who by the law of nature hath giuen vnto euery one power to defend himselfe and his Commonwealth from the violence which is done them by such a tyrant NOVICE. But what say you of Kings and Princes that are lawfull but yet administer tyrannically as touching their cariage IESVITE The present question regardeth chiefly such a Prince and the King of England as Suarez saith spake also of such Princes because we hold them in the ranke of lawfull Princes Father Mariana hauing vsed all the ordinary precautions wherewithall I will hereafter instruct thee came at length to this not to leaue that power of killing such a Prince in the pleasure of any priuate man whatsoeuer Vnlesse the common voyce of the people be such and that graue and vnderstanding men haue beene consulted with vpon it For in that case he iudged that it would bee good for humane affaires if valiant and couragious men were found that despising their owne proper safety and liues would for the liberty of their Country and sauouring the publike wishes deliuer it from the Tyrant NOVICE. Is this opinion approued IESVITE The stirre which our Aduersaries made about it especially in France where they insisted vpon those words as the causes of attempts vpon their Kings and affirmed that Mariana by graue and vnderstanding men consulted with vpon it meant Confessors and especially those of our Society giuing them all power ouer the liues of Kings hath beene the cause that wee were constrained to qualifie that saying a little and although Marianaes booke had passed for currant and had beene published according to order by permission of the superiors yet at the instance of the Fathers of our Society which in France found themselues in trouble about it the Generall Aquauiua made a Deâ—ree whereby hee forbad but without naming Mariana to teach eyther by word of mouth or writing that it was lawfull for any person whatsoeuer vnder any praetext of tyranny that might be to kill Kings or to plot their death Father Eudaemono-Iohannes writing against the Wolfe as he calleth him of Chichester hath refuted this opinion of Mariana howbeit with this excuse of him that hee wrote it not as an Oracle but as a man that deliuered his opinion with doubt neuerthelesse hee saith that all the rest of the Iesuites disallowed it NOVICE. Teach mee then I pray you what others say that speake best of it IESVITE I cannot doe it better then by the doctrine of Father Suarez who answering the King of England vpon this matter spake the most correctedly hee could Hee holdeth then this Maxime for resolued that the lawfull Prince ruling tyrannically or for any crime whatsoeuer cannot be killed by any priuate authority NOVICE. Doth he meane this in any case whatsoeuer IESVITE There are but three cases which may be considered in it Eyther the little of iust vengeance and punishment or the title of iust defence of himselfe or the title of iust defence of the Common-wealth The first title appertaineth to no priuate man As touching the title of a iust publike or particular defence distinction must be vsed and consideration had whether a man defendeth himselfe or the Common-wealth if himselfe whether it be his life his members some grieuous mutilation of his body or his goods For it is not lawfull to kill his King doing violence for his goods But if there be question of the defence of his owne life which the King would take away from him by violence then ordinarily it is lawfull for the subiect to defend himselfe although the death of the Prince doth thereof ensue because the right of the conseruation of a mans owne life is the greatest of all others and then the Prince is not in any necessity that obligeth the subiect to lose his life for him who voluntarily and iniustly thrusteth himselfe into that perill NOVICE. But may not one from thence draw that consequence which Mariana maketh If thou seest saith hee thy Mother or thy-dearest Wife vexed in thy presence and dost not succour them being able shalt thou not be cruell and incurre the reproach of cowardise and impiety and wilt thou let thy Countrey be vexed and tormented by a Tyrant at his pleasure vnto which we owe more then to our parents IESVITE The consequence is good in the like case For saith Father Suarez grant that the King doth actually set vpon the Citie for to ruine it iniustly or to kill the Citizens or some such like thing then it shall be lawfull to resist the Prince euen in killing him if the defence cannot otherwaies be made For if it be lawfull to doe it for a mans owne life much more for the publike good because a City or Common-wealth doth then make a iust defensiue warre against an iniust oppressor though its owne proper King and so euery Citizen as a member of the Common-wealth and moued by it eyther expresly or tacitely may defend the Common-wealth in that conflict in
the Royall power tooke its originall may according to the necessity of the case call their King in question and if he reiect the remedy they may despoile him of his kingdome for they haue not transferred their right in such manner to the Prince but that they haue reserued a greater power vnto themselues Cardinall Bellarmine teacheth the same That in the kingdomes of men the power of the King commeth from the people because the people made the King which otherwise had beene a priuate man like another And that if he degenerate into a tyrant albeit he be the head of the kingdome he may notwithstanding be deposed by the people who may elect another He commendeth also that which Nauarrus saith How the people neuer make such a transport of their power to the King that they doe not reserue it in habitude to re-assume it in certaine cases NOVICE. What shall I answer vnto those which alledge the decree of the Councell of Constance condemning this proposition That the tyrant may and ought to be killed by any one of his subiects whatsoeuer not onely by open force but by secret practices and fraud IESVITE There be answers enough for as Mariana saith I doe not find that Pope Martin the fifth approued that Decree nor Eugenius or his successors But Father Suarez without wronging the Councell speaketh thus to the King of England Where doe you finde in the acts of the Councell of Constance Princes excommunicated by the Pope or degraded or this other particle By his subiects or any other whatsoeuer Seeing then that the addition of such particles to the proposition giueth it a diuerse sense it is an illusory inference to attribute such a proposition vnto that Councell NOVICE. And what shall I answer if that be obiected vnto me which Saint Paul saith Let euery person be subiect to the higher powers IESVITE That Saint Paul neuer added That euery one should be subiect to powers excommunicated or deposed by the Pope And that the one cannot be inferred from the other seeing they are diuers things nay meere contraries for a deposed King is no longer an higher power And as Cardinall Bellarmine introduceth the Pope answering the people which would continue in the obedience of the deposed King I doe not free thee either from the naturall or diuine commandement when I absolue thee from the tye of obedience for I doe not permit that thou shouldest not obey thy King which were against the diuine Law but I make him that was thy King not to be so any longer as he that setteth a seruant at liberty doth not agree that the seruant should not be tyed to obey his Lord which would be against the diuine Law but he dealeth so that he hath no Lord any longer to obey NOVICE. It followeth then that Iaques Clement which killed Henry the third King of France did not kill his King but onely a priuate man seeing the Pope had excommunicated him and exposed his Kingdome as a prey IESVITE The consequence is necessary Also Mariana saith That that young man of a simple spirit and weake body but in whom a greater vertue Vis maior had confirmed strength and courage got himselfe no small renowne by killing that King That it was a memorable act and he accuseth them of barbarousnesse and cruelty feritatis seuitiae that thronging in gaue so many blowes to a man that was dead before and he assureth that in his face it might haue beene read how ioyfull and glad he was amidst his blowes and wounds that with his bloud he had bought the liberty of his Country For hee had learned of Diuines with whom he had consulted that the Tyrant might iustly be killed NOVICE. Is it lawfull to kill the Tyrant with poyson or mortiferous hearbs IESVITE We know that it hath beene often done nor are we to thinke that any man which is assured to kill him neglecting a meane so fairely offered to dispatch him will stay the aduice of Diuines and rather make vse of steele considering the danger that way is lesse the hope of impunity more and the publike ioy much increased the enemy being killed and the author and architect of the publike liberty preserued NOVICE. The question is not of that which men would do but of that which may be iustly done IESVITE There be arguments on eyther side For what difference is there whether thou killest him with poison or with steele There be many examples both ancient and moderne of enemies killed this way Indeed it is a difficult thing to poyson a Prince but if a fit occasion present it selfe who is there so sharp-witted or clear-sighted that can shew any difference betweene the one and the other death I do not deny but that these arguments are of great force howbeit I deny that one may iustly kill him with poyson whom we haue said may be killed by fraud NOVICE. Why so IESVITE Because Christians haue thought it to be an inhumane thing in presenting men with poyson eyther in meat or drinke to make them the instruments of their owne death as if one should constraine them to stab themselues with their owne hands NOVICE. Is there no way to remedy this and in the meane time to make vse of poyson without scruple of conscience IESVITE There is And this is the moderation which I would bring vnto it That he whom we would haue killed be not constrained to be the instrument himselfe of sending downe the poison into his owne bowels but that it be applyed outwardly by another without the help of him that is to be killed Which may be done when the force of the poyson is so great that the robe or seate whereupon one sitteth being infected with it hath the power to kill him which I haue read hath beene vsed by some Moore Kings towards other Princes NOVICE. I find my selfe sufficiently instructed herein But calling to mind that which you decided heretofore How the Pope may constraine Kings by excommunication to punish Heretickes and Schismaticks I would pray you to tell me whether it bee lawfull for a King to permit diuersity of religions in a Kingdome and if he hath permitted or tolerated it whether he ought to continue it IESVITE The Common-wealth cannot subsist where the Citizens doe not agree in religion In one house the Wife doth neuer agree with a concubine and in a City or Prouince it is not well done to tolerate a false religion with the true For to what end serueth this profane liberty whereby the people are brought to shake off all feare vnlesse it be that religion being violated the order of Priesthood abased and Churches spoyled this fire gaining farther and farther commeth at length to consume euen the very Nobility it selfe NOVICE. What must be done then IESVITE Princes are to be admonished and exhorted That if they desire to haue their affaires prosper they must represse heresie at the beginning and stifle
the growing Fury in the cradle to the end they may not too late repent their passed negligence Let the Prince feare lest after the course of this life he be not condemned as culpable of for saking his charge and so consequently of a most grieuous crime and infinite mischiefes and that he be not very iustly punished for neglecting the publike and particular good NOVICE. This being well vrged to Catholike Princes they whom we hold for Heretickes cannot thinke themselues safe in a kingdome whose Prince maketh account of such admonitions IESVITE I will tell thee in few words what father Becan teacheth hereupon First that liberty of Religion is altogether vnlawfull and repugnant to the Law of God Secondly that it is pernicious to the Common-wealth Thirdly that the Prince ought not to command approue or introduce it but rather by all meanes if commodiously it may be done impeach and extirpe it Fourthly if commodiously it cannot be done but with great preiudice to the Common-wealth he may tolerate it for a time Lastly that if it be so tolerated and that thereupon an accord be made he must obserue it NOVICE. Doth not this last clause make well for those who haue their Kings perpetuall and irreuocable Edicts for it IESVITE First of all we say that this toleration ought not to be but for a time Secondly that though in words we giue the lie to such as charge vs for saying that faith is not to be kept with heretickes yet in effect we haue alwayes reserued two meanes for Catholike Princes and Common-wealths to break with them because whatsoeuer they doe or promise wee say that they doe not grant security vnto Hereticks but onely against vniust violence alwayes excepting iustice and the execution of right and by this meane was Iohn Hus and his companion caught for whatsoeuer safe conduct was giuen him against vniust violence that made nothing to saue him from the fire which he had iustly merited The other meane is that we let Princes know How when there are two Princes whose iudgements and tribunals are different and that the one is inferior to the other the inferior whatsoeuer he promiseth cannot hinder the superior from the execution of his iurisdiction and therefore he is quit of his promise because he hath done all that he can Now the Pope being the superior of all Christian Princes principally he may notwithstanding any promise of theirs exercise his iurisdiction in their Kingdomes And forasmuch as Christian kings not onely as touching their persons but also as touching their Royall power not onely as men but also as Kings are vnder his power It is then in him to direct them in the vse of their power and to command forbid or hinder them in any thing which he shall see conuenient for the spirituall good of the Church And so he may amend and correct the ciuill lawes when they are not agreeable to good manners make others or command Princes to reuoke and reforme them This being there is no Edict can hold good when oportunity serueth and that Kings will obey the Pope as they ought NOVICE. It were an hard thing to draw this obedience from som any Kings that haue such seuerall and diuers interests whereby they are gouerned in these matters wherefore me thinkes it were good for that purpose there were one onely King which might be the Superiour of all the rest of the whole world as there is one Pope aboue all Bishops For those two agreeing wee should haue a dainty harmonie though not very pleasing to the eares of the Heretickes IESVITE Cardinall Bellarmine hath thus spoken of it Me thinkes it were very expedient if it could be effected without iniustice and warres that all Prouinces of the world were gouerned by one soueraigne King in politick matters especially if this soueraigne Monarch had vnder him not Deputies and Vice-roys but true princes as the Pope hath vnder him true Bishops We trauell with all our power to attaine hereunto NOVICE. If this could once be brought about to whom should we giue our voyces for that vniuersall Monarchy IESVITE Nay now thou touchest a shrewd point I tell thee and which is not fit to be diuulged for feare lest they which shall see themselues excluded do mainly oppose it and therefore it must be kept secret as a most reserued article Howbeit for thine owne particular content read the Preface of our good friend Henry Doerhangk professor of the Spanish Italian and French Tongues at Cullen vpon his Spanish Grammar which will teach thee what hope thou art to haue in the matter Looke here is the Booke printed by Peter Brachel 1614. Read this clause NOVICE. All the people of the earth doe see that the Name of God is called vpon by the Spaniards that is to say that God is in the middest of them and is their protector which is the reason why all men feare and tremble vnder them And I doubt not if they continue so constant and zealous to amplifie and defend true Religion and pietie to obserue both diuine and humane Lawes so strictly and to abstaine from the most enormous sinnes but that by the blessing of God they shall possesse the Monarchy of the whole world and subiect all countries people and nations vnder the most sweet and glorious yoake of Christ and then shall they accomplish that which our Lord and Sauiour said And there shall be but one shepheard and but one fold IESVITE This is a mystery not to be published till the euent appeare for which we labour so much I haue many others besides to impart vnto thee but that shall be at another time for now thou hast enough to employ thy meditation vpon yet a good while that so thou maist be made capable of the practice of these good instructions NOVICE. I thanke you good Father now I finde indeede that Father Deza did not mock when in his Sermon he said that our Father Ignatius was that Angell of whom S. Iohn speaketh in the Apocalyps chap. 10. vers 1. And I saw a mighty Angell come downe from heauen clothed with a cloud and a rainbow vpon his head and his face was as the Sunne and his feet as pillars of fire c. For by that which is said how he was clothed with a cloud is meant that he couered his high and generous enterprises and designes which also representeth the gouernment of our Societie that manifest their effects by concealing the rules and manner thereof And as in times past a cloud couered the tabernacle of the Congregation the glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle Exod. 40. 34. So God who hath built this Tabernacle of ours here vpon earth to the end so holy a thing might be respected as it deserueth hath ordained that its manner of gouernment should be so secret as no man should be able to pierce into it Lo that which is meant by amictum nube I shall neuer forget this