use of by some of the Grantees or their Agents to make the incumbrances appear great tho we believe if they were duly enquired into they would be found considerable but that a great part of them might have been paid off by the preception of Profits before this time however we humbly conceive that at present they will be much more than discharged by the personal and other Forfeitures not before valued which we now humbly lay before your Honours 66. As we informed your Honours before soon after the Battel of the Boyne Commissioners under the Great Seal of Ireland were appointed who had power to seize and dispose of the forfeited Goods and Chattels to his Majesty's use these appointed Sub-Commissioners in the several Counties then in his Majesty's Possession who made returns of great quantities of Goods and Chattels which they valued at 13552 l. but at so moderate computations that every Horse was valued at twenty shillings every Cow or Ox at fifteen shillings Sheep at half a Crown a piece and other things proportionably So that it appears very probable to us that if the said goods had been disposed of to the best advantage they might have yielded between two and three hundred thousand pounds but before that could be done upon representation of the then Commissioners of the Revenue the Power of disposing by the said Commissioners of Forfeitures was superseded by a Letter from his Majesty within nine days after the granting their Commission and placed in the Commissioners of the Revenue By this means so much time was lost before their Books and Goods seiz'd by the Sub-Commissioners could be transferred to the Officers of the Revenue that the greatest part of them were either embezeled by the Sub-Commissioners of Forfeitures or the Commissioners of the Revenue or else plundred by the Army at their return into Winter Quarters so that it does not appear to us that there was ever accounted for to his Majesty above the value of 44000 l. Besides these there were great quantities of other Goods in the Inquisitions which we do not find ever came to his Majesties use and many more were seized by private Men. Indeed the Plunder at that time was so general that some Men in considerable Employments were not free from it which seems to us a very great reason why this matter has not been more narrowly search't into particularly the Lord C-n-ngsby seized a great many Black Cattle to the number of Three Hundred or thereabouts besides Horses that were left in the Park after the Battle of the Boyne and which we do not find ever were accounted for to his Majesty he also seized all the Plate and Goods in the House of Sir Michael Creagh Lord Mayor of the City of Dublin for the year 1689 which are generally thought to amount to a great value but this last is said to be by Grant from his Majesty there were several Rich Goods and other Household-stuff delivered by the Commissioners of the Revenue to the then Lords Justices the Lord S-dn-y and Lord C-n-ngsby which we do not find were ever returned accounted for to his Majesty or left in the Castle at their departure from the Government 67. Farther there were several other quantities delivered by order of the Commissioners to Sir Charles Porter Major General Kirk and others which have not been returned and a great deal more by the General Officers of the Army which 't is said his Majesty has since discharged 68. If we may believe the general reports of the Country very many persons have made their advantages of these Forfeitures but the time was so distant the Proofs so difficult and withal the hopes of getting any part of them back again so remote that we rather chose to prosecute more material enquiries and therefore can give your Honours no farther information concerning them 69. But since the values of the before mentioned Goods and Chattels are so uncertain we make no estimate of them but will proceed to take notice of some debts due by Judgment and Statute and a few Mortgages due to forfeiting Persons not restored which amount to 120013 l. 13 s. 10 d. as appears in a Book delivered in with this Report N. 8. 70. And here it may be observed that these Debts are liable to all the objections made against the Incumbrances before mentioned only with this difference that as the Incumbrances may be presumed to be in a great measure satisfied by the preception of Profits the Creditors being many of them in Possession by her late Majesties Letter in favour of Protestant Creditors or at least that the full Interest has been paid out of the Rents So in the other the full Penalty is due no Interest appearing to be paid since the Forfeiture and therefore we humbly conceive may be taken as so much in Discount against Incumbrances 71. And here we crave leave further to observe that almost all the said Judgments were found in the Court of Exchequer only and from a mistake of our Orders no return has been made from either of the Courts of Law by which means we believe many more Debts appearing upon Record to be due to Forfeiting Persons not restored may be omitted 72. There are yet to be computed 297 Houses in the City of Dublin 36 Houses in the City of Cork with 226 Houses Situate in the several Cities and Towns of this Kingdom together with 61 Mills 28 Fairs and Markets 72 Rectories and Tythes Chief-rents amounting to 283 l. per annum and six Ferries and Fisheries lying within the several Counties and Baronies of this Kingdom the Forfeitures of Persons not restored which we value in gross at 5000 l. and place here among the personal Forfeitures towards the discharge of Incumbrances and if we add the Debts due to Forfeiting Persons as we humbly conceive we shall fully discharge the Incumbrances aforesaid and if there were room to apprehend any deficience yet the Chattels real of persons comprehended within the Articles of Limerick which by the construction of the said Articles they were not to be restored to would fully as we apprehend make up any defect that might remain after the allowances aforesaid 73. It appeared to us by our observations in the Country that a great part of the Lands call'd unprofitable in the Survey except those in Kerry which we account as nothing are now profitable Acres and many of them as good Lands as any of the Kingdom and tho they are not comprehended within our valuations yet are in themselves considerable 74. We have computed the forfeited Estates according to the present value and the current price of Coin here were they now to be set without any regard to beneficial Leases made before the Forfeitures and because we found it impossible either to come to a reasonable knowledg of the number of them and which are real and fraudulently set up we think it most proper to make a general allowance for the same by way
otherwise I should have been more observant thereof but the particular Expressions which some of us are charged with by the Evidence now given are of so extraordinary a nature that I could not easily have forgotten them flying in the face of the King is so great a Reflection and so foolish an Expression that I think I could not have passed it by without the Censure it deserved Sir I do affirm to you upon my Reputation my Credit and all that is dear to me that I never heard the least Reflection upon the King by any of the Commissioners either in their Debates or otherwise in execution of their Authority When I had the Honour to be appointed by you one of your Commission I naturally reflected upon the part I was to act in it the many enemies I must in likelihood create upon a faithful Discharge of my Duty as well amongst Men in power the Grantees as the Purchasers and others claiming under them of which I had some knowledg having been formerly in Ireland However I was resolved upon a very short notice not only to subject my own private Concerns to Disappointments but to dispose of other Mens business with which in the way of my profession I was intrusted to their best advantage in my absence In discharge whereof I did act and I hope it will appear I did so with all imaginable Integrity And it will be my hard fortune if after such my Endeavours I should fall under your Displeasure As to what is alledged with respect to Mr. Harcourt I do not remember that I ever mentioned his Name upon any Debate at our board whereby to influence any Man in his Judgment nor indeed upon any other account except in private Conversation by drinking his Health and by expressing my self with that gratitude which became me towards one whom I had received particular Obligations from and deserved well from me I never had any Letter from Mr. Harcourt that took the least notice of the private Estate nor indeed that related to the execution of our Commission except in one Letter he said I might easily imagine with what pleasure he heard of the success of our Labours and that he was glad to find by the account I gave him that the Forfeitures were likely to answer the End for which we were sent over and that was the only Letter I received from him during my stay in Ireland hearing abroad of such a Letter being mentioned in the House I lookt all the Letters I received from any of the Gentlemen of this House during my stay in Ireland but I own I am very unwilling to produce the Letters of any person who favoured me with his correspondence and do hope I shall not be obliged to it Mr. Speaker For that you will have the further pleasure of the House but do you say you never heard of those words of flying in the King's face or that your Commission did fly in the King's Face Mr. Annesly From the time we first began to execute our Commission till our Power was determined I never was absent one hour I think I may say one moment from business and I assure you I never heard those words nor any thing like them fall from any one of the Commissioners As to the Debate among the Commissioners about returning the private Estate some hot words did pass and I will take notice to you if you please of some of them The Gentleman on my left hand did give very abusive Language to one of the other Commissioners Mr. Speaker To whom Mr. Annesly To Mr. Trenchard Another of the Commissioners said he would battle it with us at the Bar of the House of Commons Mr. Speaker Who was that Mr. Annesly That was my Lord Dr-gh-da Says Sir Francis Brewster I have as good Friends as you meaning Mr. Trenchard and we shall be as well heard there as you Mr. Trenchard answered I don't fear what you can do if you won't be an Evidence against me the ill Language Sir Francis gave forced that Expression from him the Resentments were high and the rest of the Commissioners then present endeavoured to pacify and make them Friends I own I then little suspected that Sir Francis that took the Expression so ill would have made good Mr. Trenchard's words at this Bar if I had I should have taken more notice of what passed There might be some other particulars that Sir F. Brewster has charged us with which I may have omitted answering if you please Sir to remind me of them I will give them the best Answer I can Mr. Speaker Mr. Trenchard if you please to give the House an Account of what you know of this matter Mr. Trenchard I was present at the Debate about the private Estate which was managed with great warmth and much said on both sides but I do not remember one word which this Gentleman speaks of that was directly so said I do own there were some words that might give umbrage to this Accusation with those that were resolved to misunderstand them The occasion was this My Ld Dr-gh-da as I remember or Sir Richard Leving said it would be flying in the King's Face to report this Grant Upon which one of the Commissioners replied my Lord We have heard too much of this Argument already and 't is time to have done with it we were not sent here to flatter and if the enquiring into the mismanagement of the Forfeitures be a flying in the King's Face then our whole Commission is a flying in his Face 'T is not dishonouring but vindicating his Majesty to shew he has been abused by ill Men and I doubt not but he will desert them when he has discovered it as the best and wisest Princes in all Ages have done More than this I do affirm upon the Reputation of a Gentleman and the word of an honest Man was not said whilst I was at the Board Mr. Speaker Who said the words you have repeated Mr. Trenchard 'T was I Sir Mr. Speaker You don't remember that Mr. Hamilton said any thing as to the flying in the King's Face Mr. Trenchard I do affirm that Mr. Hamilton to the best of my memory and I think I could not mistake it did not say any words relating to that matter more than that since we had enquired into the private Estate and it was known in both England and Ireland we should be thought bribed and corrupt if we did not report it but I am very sure he said no words dishonourable of his Majesty and if he had I would have resented it at the time as I suppose these Gentle men would have done and call'd upon others to have taken notice of it Mr. Speaker What words did you hear said in your Chamber Mr. Trenchard A great part of the time I was in that Kingdom I was confined to my Chamber being sick which I impute in a great measure to the fatigue of our Commission during which time
Book of Grants N. 6. and others affirm they have not yet received any Satisfaction the whole We believe are under the value of two thousand Pounds per annum 85. And here we may take notice that the Forfeitures in general notwithstanding they appear to be so considerable have been rather a charge than profit to his Majesty which might seem very extraordinary if we did not acquaint your Honours that many obscure Men that had little or nothing since the reduction of Ireland are now reputed Masters of considerable Estates and some of them very great ones nor does there appear any visible cause of their acquiring such suddain Riches but by fishing into these Forfeitures indeed the whole management has been so intricate as if it was design'd to make the knowledg of it a Mystery which has proved sufficiently advantagious to these Men tho very much to the detriment of his Majesty who by this means has been deceived in the value of his Grants and in many cases hath given much more than he intended as we conceive 86. There is nothing seems to us to have contributed more to it than the setting the forfeited Lands by Cant in the City of Dublin and not in the several Counties in the Kingdom For by that means very few persons would come to Town at a great Charge and neglect of their Affairs when they were sure to be out-bid by the Agents to Great Men who aimed only to get into possession and had Interest enough afterwards to have all or most of their Rents remitted Upon this consideration Mr. Attourney General and William Conmelly Esquire canted Lands in the County of Kilkenny worth about 200 l. per annum to more than 20000 l. per annum So that private Men who had no Interest found it in vain to contend besides they were over-awed by the Authority often of those that bid against them which weighed much in this Country 87. By these methods when others were driven off the Stage they took the Lands at their own rates oftentimes as we conceive agreeing not to bid against one another particularly Thomas Brodrick Esq and the said Mr. Conmelly who took vast quantities of Lands and in a great measure governed the Cants few Persons daring to bid against them acted in Partnership in all they took in the Year 1695 and ever since and let it afterwards to under-tenants at greater Rents which is more observable in Mr. Brodrick who was a Privy-Counseller and appointed by the Lord C-p-ll to inspect the Cants having been informed they were managed much to his Majesties disadvantage 88. Nor cou'd it be expected they should be better regulated when many of the immediate Officers of the Revenue took parcels of these Lands and some were taken in trust for the very Commissioners themselves and particularly the Lands of Kerdiffs-town were let to Henry Fernley who was a nominal Person in trust for Mr. Culliford at 31 l. 16 s. per annum tho actually canted to 84 l. Several other forfeited Lands have been taken by Mr. Culliford and great quantities of Goods seized by him to his Majesty's use which he afterwards converted to his own 89. Besides the great abuses in the management of their Cants we humbly represent to your Honours one instance of a considerable Estate that was set without any Cant at all by direction of the Lords Justices for at least one thousand pounds per ann less than it was then worth and for a term of sixty one years tho by a Letter from his Majesty dated the _____ day of March 1698 they were commanded to Let it for a term not exceeding twenty one Years and at a time too when one Year and half was unexpired in another Tenant This is a Lease of the Estate of Sir Valentine Browne and Nicholas Browne Esq commonly call'd Lord K-nm-re within the Counties of Kerry and Limerick made to John Blannenhasset and George Rogers Esquires then Members of Parliament of this Kingdom 90. Having already laid before your Honours the most material parts of our Inquiry we now crave leave to make a short abstract of our valuations before we conclude our Report The whole forfeited Estates since the 13th day of February 1688 we value at 2685130 l. 5 s. 9 d. Â l. s. d. The Estates restor'd by Articles we value at 724923 4 6 The Estates restored by favour we value at 260863 7 3 The Debts affecting the Estates forfeited and found by Inquisition or allow'd by order of the Exchequer we compute at 161936 15 6 Against which we ballance the Estates due to forfeiting Persons not restored amounting to 120013 l. 13 s. as also all Houses Tythes Mills Fairs Markets Chief-rents and Ferries worth about 50000 l. Against the beneficial Leases we ballance all the Leases call'd unprofitable and also all the Woods yet standing upon the forfeited Estates which we compute may be worth about 60000 l. and the Chattles real of Persons adjudged within Articles never brought to any account But lest Allowances should not be thought sufficient we throw in all denominations of Lands that have no number of Acres annexed to them which we cannot believe will amount to less than seventy or eighty thousand Acres and consequently if valued in proportion with other Lands will come to at least 14000 l. The Estates yet undiscovered seem to us very considerable but we can make no probable valuation of them the Sums received by the Grantees from the Sale of their Estates amount to 68155 l. 3 s. 1 d. We have taken no notice of any Debts due to Persons restored or of any incumbrances affecting their Estates And after the several Allowances before-mentioned there yet remains 1699343 l. 14 s. which we humbly lay before your Honours as the gross of all the Estates forfeited since the 13th of February 1688. and not restored We shall now conclude our Report by laying before your Honours one other Grant of a considerable value which we are apprehensive does not fall within the Letter of our Enquiry but since the benefit of some forfeited Leases or Holdings are therein granted we chose rather to lay the whole Grant before your Honours than be thought defective in any part of our duty or what might be expected from us A Grant under the Great Seal of Ireland dated the 30th of May 1695 passed to Mrs. Elizabeth V-ll-rs now Countess of Ork --- y of all the Private Estate of the late King James except some small part in grant to the Earl of Athl-ne containing 95649 Acres worth 25995 l. 13 s. per annum value total 337943 l. 9 s. the Particulars whereof viz. the number of Acres in each County and Barony the value per annum and value total appear in a Book delivered in with this Report N. 9. There is payable out of this Estate two thousand Pounds per annum to the Lady Susanna B-ll-sis for her Life and also one thousand pounds per annum to Mrs. Godfrey for her
I had the favour to be visited sometimes with ten or a dozen in an Evening sometimes twice the number of the People of the best Fashion in that Country and amongst the rest my own Brethren often obliged me with their Company without doubt in this time many subjects were discoursed of but the particulars of any one discourse I do not remember I never treasure up what is said in private Conversation and if I did I scorn to tell it Mr. Speaker Mr. Langford you hear what the Gentlemen have given an account of 't is of what passed between you about putting the private Estate into the Report and whether upon my Ld Dr-gh-da's saying it would be a flying in the King's face Mr. Hamilton answered Our Commission flies in the King's face Mr. Langford I was present when this debate happened about the private Estate and it was with a great deal of heat It was objected by my Ld Dr-gh-da that it would be a flying in the King's face to report the private Estate and was not in our Commission It was answered by Mr. Trenchard we had that too often mentioned to put us by the Execution of this Commission that we did not think the discovering Abuses a flying in the King's Face but that on the contrary we should do Service to his Majesty to lay the matter before him that he might see how the Grants were disposed of and how he was deceived in them and he thought it was also necessary that both this House and the Kingdom should know it Mr. Speaker What did Mr. Hamilton say Mr. Langford I did not hear Mr. Hamilton speak one word relating to the King or this Point Mr. Speaker Do you know of any Letters from Members of this House Mr. Langford No Sir I had not the Honour to be acquainted with many Members I had no Letter my self nor did I see any Mr. Speaker You are accused about words of your own Members Do not ask him to that Mr. Speaker Mr. Hooper You hear to what purpose you are called in Mr. Hooper Yes I do the whole matter seems strange to me I have not been absent from the Board except when I was sick at Limerick one hour during the whole Execution of this Commission nor did I hear one word spoken reflecting upon his Majesty unless the insinuation that doing our Duty would be flying in the King's Face which I think was a great reflection upon him and I think Mr. Trenchard has very well repeated his own words I am sure in substance they are the same I am confident there was no Letter produced whilst I was at the Board from any Member and I believe by what Conversation I had with the four Commissioners they never had any but what was fit to be produced and for the substance of what Mr. Annesly and Mr. Trenchard have said I know it to be true I never heard Mr. Hamilton speak but with great Honour of the King and I do positively assert to the best of my Memory he never said any such thing as is alledged against him at the Board I am confident I was present at all the Debates about the private Estate and do remember three dissenting Commissioners did immediately declare themselves against the inserting it in the Report three others that are present did as readily declare for it so that Mr. Hamilton being in a manner solely left to determine this matter complained that it was a great Hardship upon him for says he my Lord Ork y is my Relation and my Friend and besides I am a Tenant to the private Estate and 't is very severe that the decision of this matter should lie upon me He added he should be very well pleased if the Objection had been made sooner and perhaps it might have had more weight with him and truly Mr. Speaker it did not appear that there was one of the Commissioners for above five Months but seemed to be peremptory for the Reporting it and accordingly Sir Richard Leving and Sir Francis Brewster joined in the Examination of many Witnesses to the value of it at Limerick and other places till about five days before the Power of the Commission ceased when I moved the Board that I might have some Direction about that Estate and they made an Order that I should immediately prepare the Report and put this in it And Mr. Hamilton gave this Reason when he joined with the Commissioners We have made so great a noise about this Estate by examining so many People to the Value and sending for the Rent Rolls of it that it is now the publick Discourse that it will be Reported and I know the World must needs say that we are Bribed and Corrupted if we do it not if it was possible I should be glad to be excused but I will rather lose my Friend I will rather lose my little Estate than be thought guilty of Bribery and Corruption and so gave his Consent to the Reporting of it and for the words relating to flying in the King's Face I affirm they are false Sir F. Brewster I desire to speak a few words You were pleased to ask me to give an Account of what passed about the words flying in the King's Face and I find the House expects I should give an Account of the whole that passed then and I beg leave to say farther that when the Debate was about the private Estate and those words were said about flying in the King's Face which my Ld Dr-gh-da and others will take their Oaths of and I believe Mr. Hamilton will not deny at the same time this was said by Mr. Trenchard I hear you talk of flying in the King's Face I hope 't is not flying in his Face but this I must tell you 't is a villanous Grant and ought to be exposed upon his speaking so words arose and that Gentleman gave me ill Language but my Language was not so bad but he was forced to beg my Pardon at the Board and I did not his there he stands let him deny it if he can Mr. Trenchard Sir it is true I did ask his Pardon and the Occasion was this as Mr. Annesly has acquainted you I was provoked by his opprobrious Language to reply I feared him in no Capacity but as an Evidence which he took very heinously he repeated the word Evidence he said 't was below a Gentleman below a Man of Honour that such a one ought to be shunn'd by all civil Conversation that I had better have stuck a Dagger in his Heart than have called him an Evidence which now I think Mr. Speaker he won't resent so highly This put the Board in great disorder and one of the Commissioners whispered to me I think it was the absent Member but I am sure all agreed in it you know he is a very simple old Fellow and tho he gave the Affront you are in the wrong that you are capable of being Angry with him Truly Sir