equity Now in your premises there is neither reason nor equity because no truth in them 2. Christ hath not delegated his Kingly office to any Princes Magistrates Parliaments to set up any form of worship or Church-government of their devising or conceiving no more then hee did to all or any of those you reckon up in the Old Testament I pray God give you a better understanding in this mystery of Christ and godly sorrow for these things Take then the counsell of this great King Bee wise therefore and understand and kisse this King this Sonne of God by obeying him in all that he saith as being not onely the onely King but the onely Prophet of his Church as before whom whoso heareth not IN ALL THINGS shall even be cut off from his people But how then doe you say This is a part of Christs Kingly office not Priestly or Propheticall to set up a government and hee hath not communicated those other offices to Princes and Parliaments Whereas Christ doth in all things regulate his Kingly office by his Prophetical office And again how say you Christ hath not given his Kingly office to Ministers but onely his Priestly and Propheticall and yet you make an Assembly of Ministers as Rector Chori to be the leaders and guides to a Form of Reformation and that necessarily And denying such to bee Kings or to have a Kingly office you exclude them out of the Albe of those faithfull ones whom Christ hath made a * Royall Priesthood even * Kings and Priests to God his Father But so much of this second Interrogatory The third Interrogatory Touching this 1. Wee assume not the power to gather Churches but being sent or called to preach the Word of the Kingdome thereby people thus called of God come to be gathered into Church-fellowship and so by consent doe chuse their Officers 2. Such as are thus called to acknowledge Christ their onely King were not begotten to this acknowledgment by such Ministers as you speak of who deny disclaime and preach against Christs Kingly government over mens consciences and Churches So as such a conversion as you speak of comes not home to whole Christ and such with their converters doe deny Christs Kingly government what kind of converts call you these Or at least and best they are converted but in part and that main thing wanting to wit Christs Kingly office they come up to by the preaching thereof 3. Such Ministers when they set up Christs government may being agreed upon by all sides have those Parishioners again that for want of it at the first went from them 4. Our solemne Vow and Covenant obligeth us not to any thing that is prejudiciall to the authority of Gods word and the libertie of a good conscience considering how Churches are gathered out of all the world not this place nor that not this house nor that but out of * every nation such as fear God and * out of every house the sons of peace out of * every Citie or Town all that receive the Gospel are called and gathered to Christ 5. Concerning Christian liberty in joyning to severall Churches as in the same house some to affect one some another you know what Christ saith Luke 12. 51 52 53. And it is God that perswadeth Iâ—phâ—t to dwell in the Tents of Shem. And brother all that noyse you make all along with extreame aggravations as Confusion Distraction implacable Contestations Schismes Tumâ—lts c. What are they but the very out-cries which the Prelats ever used for the crying and keeping up of their Hierarchy built upon the same sandy foundation This is well noted in the Harmony of Confessions Sect. 11. Confession of Ausburg These Senater-like Declamations though they be very plausible and incense the mindes of many against us yet they may be confuted by most true and substantiall arguments As All the Prophets and Apostles were true lovers of the peace and concord of Nations and people yet were they constrained by the commandement of God to warre against the Devils kingdome to preach heavenly doctrine to collect a Church unto God and the like And The true doctrine of God and his true worship must needs be embraced and received and all errors that tend to the dishonor of God must be abhorred and forsaken though all the world should break and fall down And much more there 6. Though we are fully perswaded by Gods Word and Spirit that this our way is Christs way yet wee neither doe nor dare judge others to be reprobates that walk not with us in it but we leave all judgement to God and heartily pray for them we our selves have been formerly ignorant of it therefore wee pitie others 7. Where you object that under pretence of Christian liberty whole Houses Parishes Counties may thus come to be divided into severall formes of Churches as some for the Presbyteriall some for the Hierarchicall and so cause Schismes and ruines or at least unavoidably subvert all ancient bounds of Parishes all setled maintenance for the Ministery by tythes c. Brother for Christian libertie who shall perswade the conscience or who hath power over it but he that made it even God the onely Judge thereof And for difference of mens judgements in points of Religion how can it be avoided And yet it followes not that upon such differences should come ruine to a State What serveth the Magistrate and the lawes of a civill State for but to keep the peace And as for Parishes will you allow no Churches but Parishes Or are Parishes originally any other but of humane politicke and civill constitution and for civill ends Or can you say that so many as inhabit in every Parish respectively shall bee a Church Should such Churches and Parishes then necessarily be Churches of Gods calling and gathering Are they not congregations of mans collection constitution and coaction meerly What Churches then And as for Tithes what Tithes I pray you had the Apostles Such as be faithfull and painfull Ministers of Christ he will certainly provide for them as when hee sent forth his Disciples without any purse or provision he asked them Lacked you any thing They said Nothing Surely the labourer is worthy of his hire And as for Ministers maintenance by Tithes I referre you to the judgment of your learned brother Mr. Selden And as for your Independent Ministers they plead no other maintenance then the New Testament holds forth yet not denying the Magistrate and State a power to appoint maintenance for the preaching of the word as is done in New England to those that are not members of Churches And where you charge them for having the faith of Christ in respect of persons as if they admitted the rich rather then the poore Brother I hope it is not so with others I am sure not so with me And lastly for your marginall young Interrogatories As 1. Of how many members
ANSVVER To Mr. PRYNNES second Book MY deare Brother to your twelve new Interrogatories I present you with a new Answer I call it new because I shall cull out such passages as I find new or not so much insisted on in your former twelve Which as they are fewer so I shall be the shorter for as much as in the former I have been the larger But brother I find not that in your Book which you pretend in your Title to wit the Unmasking of Independency Nor can we expect it of you for in your Proeme you say that the Independents have not dogmatically and in direct termes discovered the full truth of what they assert If not what kind of visage will you discover when you have taken off the mask Surely by your handling of the matter you mean to unmask some hags face such as pleased the Painter Which when you have done it will appeare to all the wise-hearted that it is not the face of Independency as wherein there shines forth such a beauty as it seemeth you yet never saw In your Preface to the Courteous Râ—â—der you say We politickly conceale the principall grounds and more deformed parts of our Church-Platforme for feare of miscarrying Good brother who told you soâ— Remember your own lesson before Judge not But indeed had you reproved us yet in love and meeknesse for not setting forth more fully a compleat Modell of this fabrick or spirituall house it had been something Which yet if it were done you would not impute it to policy that it was not sooner done But when it is exactly done you will find no deformed parts at all in it but contrariwise a greater beauty then in that famous Temple that Solomon built as being the spirituall Temple of Jesus Christ so as I am sorry you are put to the paines of pumping out our determinations as you say by your Questions When as you should rather find it as a fountaine flowing forth in the streets But brother how doe you write by Question not decision as you say when your Questions prove to be decisions as your former twelve are And what doe you els but refute upon bare conjectures Andabatarum more pugnando as those at blind-man-buff For your Charges upon us are very sore and as many doe say bitter so farre beyond reason as you are not able truly to say Wherefore For your first Question Whether the Independent forme of Church-government be anywhere to be found in the Old or New Testament this we have resolved in your former Twelve Questions so as this is no new Interrogatory unlesse you put the greater difference between Questions and Interrogatories And though it were in no antiquitie which yet we have shewen before neverthelesse if it be found in the Scripture as there it is whatsoever clouds of the mastery of iniquitie have darkened the lustre of it for so many hundred yeares yet this cannot plead prescription against it For if Nullum tempus occurrit Regi then surely no tract of time can prescribe against the law of Christs kingdome which we finde upon sacred record But where say you Why brother this House of God wherein Christ rules as King stands upon so many Principles as so many maine pillars not to be shaken As 1. It is a spirituall house whose onely builder and governour is Christ and not man 2. It is a spirituall kingdome whose onely King is Christ and not man 3. It is a spirituall Republick whose onely Law-giver is Christ and not man 4. It is a spiritual Corporation or body whose onely head is Christ and not man 5. It is a Communion of Saints governed by Christs Spirit not man's 6. Christs Church is a Congregation called and gathered out of the world by Christs Spirit and Word and not by man These Principles are such as the Adversaries themselves of this kingdome of Christ cannot dare not deny And out of these Principles doe issue these Conclusions 1. That no man is the builder of this spirituall house 2. That no man nor power on earth hath a kingly power over this kingdome 3. That no earthly Law-givers may give Lawes for the government of this Republick 4. That no man may claime or exercise a headship over this Body 5. That no man can or ought to undertake the Government of this Communion of Saints Item That none are of this Communion but visible Saints Ergo a true visible Church of Christ cannot be defined or confined to a parochiall multitude Item â—hat that Government of this Communion is not extrinsecall but intrinsecall by the Spirit of the Word and by the Word of the Spirit 6. That men may not appoint limit constitute what Congregations of all sorts they please to be Churches of Christ as Nations and Parishes But you confesse in generall Christ to be the Builder the King the Law-giver the Head the Governour the Caller the Gatherer of his Churches If you doe you must approve of those Churches you call Independent as whereof Christ is the onely Builder King Law-giver Head Governour Caller and Gatherer If you doe not in denying Christ in these relations you deny Christ in his absolute Regalitie But in your Answer to your Antiquerist pag. 6. you doe in part grant Christ to be King internally in the soule which you say may passe for tolerable O brother No more but may passe for toleráble You that are so lâ—rge-â—earred to your friends are you so strait-laced to Christ Surely Brother Christ is the full and sole King raigning in the heart and conscience of every true beleever It were intolerable not to grant this in its full latitude But you absolutely deny Christs sole kingly Government externall over his Churches Brother this is no lesse Christs kingly Prerogative then the former Hee that is King over every part of the body must needs be King over the whole body It therefore Christ be the only King over every mans conscience so as no man nor power on earth may sit with him in this his Throne then consequently by the seâ—f-same reason must he by the Word of the kingdome as the only Law thereof exercise his kingly office over his Churches so as no humane power or law may intermeddle to prescribe rules for the government or forms of this spirituall House and Kingdome For otherwise if man should set up a form of Government over the Church of Christ to which all must conforme then of necessitie should man bâ— Lord over the couscience which is the highest presumption against the most High And then what mischiefs would followâ— What intolerable tyrannie over the conscience Then must your words ibid. come to passe If a moderated or regulated Epâ—scopacie the same with Presbyterio should by the Synods advice be unanimâ—usly established in Parliament as most consonant to the Scriptures and most agrerable to the Civill Government I shall readily submit unto it
government as in Davids time the service of God was in greater state and externall pomp when the Temple was built then it was before in the Tabernacle whereby it may appear that there was a liberty left to David to alter the form of worship so as was sutable to the Regall state But I answer Here was no liberty left to man to alter any thing in the worship of God or in the Church-government For God was so exact in this that he would not leave it to David himself though both a King and a Prophet and a man after Gods own heart to set up what worship he pleased in the Temple but God gave him an exact patterne of all and that not onely by his Spirit but in writing that he might neither adde nor omit in the least tittle 1 Chron. 28. And you know it was never left to the Kings of Judah to do the least thing in point of Reformation but onely to see that the Priests do all strictly not any thing as seemed good to them but all according to the precise rule of the Law 2 Chron. 31. Now was the great Law-giver so strict under the old Testament and is he grown more remisse under the New In Ezekiels vision of the Temple or Church in the time of the Gospel Ezek. 43. 10 11. wee reade of a patterne form fashion of everie particular thing of the House of God which is his Church exactly set down and measured by Gods own speciall direction Or are men more wise and more faithfull now then David was that Christ should trust every Nation with such a liberty as this to alter and diversifie Church-government and Discipline so as might be most agreeable to this or that Kingdoms Common-weales Countreys custome commodity conveniencie And as for your Nationall Church here mentioned we shall take a just measure of it when we come to your ninth Question And whereas you quote in the Margine 1 Cor. 14. 40. 11. 34. on which you ground your liberty to form your Church-government Discipline sutably to each particular Civill government Alas brother these very Scriptures our Prelates abused to maintain their unlimited liberty of setting up their rites and ceremonies as sutable to the Civil government which absurdity I have fully refelled in my Reply to Canterburies Relation Whereas the Apostle there exhorteth that all things be done decently and in order according to those rules they had received of him to which agreeth the other place alledged by you Other things will I set in order when I come as Titus 1. 5. He left Titus in Crete that he might set in order the things that remained but all according to the Apostles direction for Church-government and choice of Officers And we should have a mad world of it if civill States in severall Countreys should have liberty to frame Church-government and Discipline as should most sute with their particular conditions This liberty is that which both Ecclesiasticall and Civill States usurping turned the spirituall Kingdom of Christ over Consciences and Churches into a temporal and secular Kingdom or rather indeed an Anti-christian Tyranny or Hierarchy so as by this means it came to passe that the second Beast ascending out of the earth to wit the Pope Revel. 13. 11. commands the inhabitants of the earth to make an image that is to set up a forme of Religion and Church-government sutable to the Image of the first Beast to wit the Imperiall State of Rome And thus came to be erected the Hierarchicall Church-government in all pomp and points sutable with the Romane Monarchy So dangerous is that libertie which brings such bondage According to that Licentia sumus omnes deteriores this brings not liberty but licentiousnesse Your second Question is Whether if any Kingdome or Nation shall by a Nationall Councell Synod and Parliament upon serious debate elect such a publick Church-government Rites Discipline as they conceive to be most consonant to Gods Word to the Laws Government under which they live and manners of their people and then settle them by a generall Law all particular Churches members of that Kingdome and Nation be not therefore actually obliged in point of * conscience and Christianity readily to submit thereto and no wayes to seek an exemption from it under pain of being guilty of arrogancie schisme contumacie and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences I answer That is Whether the Kingdome and Nation of England c. The summe is you would here make way for a politicall State Church-government or a mixt Church-government partly according to Gods word and partly to the Laws and government under which we live and partly to the manners of the people Humano capiti cervicem jungere equinam Or populout placerent c. Truly brother your very question is hereticall you must pardon the expression which otherwise would not come home to the full truth And your word Elect imports no lesse For Elect taken in that sense as you here apply it to set up a form of Religion of Church-government and Discipline with Rites and ceremonies sutable to the Laws and customes of a State and manners of the people and AS MEN CONCEIVE is of the same signification with {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} which signifieth a taking up an heresie upon humane election or as you say As they conceive For you say not Such a Church-government c. as is most consonant to Gods word but such as they conceive to be most consonant So as you hang your Church-government upon mens conceit or opinion of consonancy with Gods word and not upon a reall and essentiall consonancy Just like the Prelate of Canterbury who in his Relation hangs the credit of the Scripture upon the Author and the opinion we have saith he of his sufficiency Which I have noted in my Reply But thus you open a wide sluce to let in an ocean of inundation of all sorts of Religion into all parts of the vvorld vvhen every Religion shall be measured by the line of mans conception what men CONCEIVE agreeable to Gods word Thus might Henry 4. the late French King to make his way the easier to the Crown through so many difficulties apostatize from the Protestant Religion and turn to Popery as conceiving it sutable to the word of God to comply with the State of France and the manners of the people for the establishing of his kingdome as he conceived though he was deceived by becoming himself a Popish King And so Jeroboam with his Counsell might CONCEIVE it agreeable enough to Gods word to set up his Calves most sutable to the new laws and customes of that State and to the manners of the people who are apt enough to embrace idolatry and superstition as Ephraim willingly walked after the commandment Hos. 5. 11. And so in the rest Now that is an heresie which is an error conceived and maintained against the word of God
That the maintaining of such a liberty as you assume here is so we have in part shewed already from the Scripture whence you are not able to bring the least shadow of reason to maintain it Nay we need go no further for the disfranchising of this your liberty but your own words Your words are asistata they cannot cohere in any true Theologicall sense For first we ought not to assume or pretend a liberty as left us of God when we want our evidence and are not able to produce our Charter out of the Magna Charta the Scripture And this brother not you nor any man can do Again nothing is more presumptuous then to attempt to mingle heaven earth together that is to mingle Christs Kingdom with the kingdoms of the world or to these to frame and fashion that which what is it else but to set up a Babylonish Church-government Did the Apostles thus Did they frame Christs Kingdom Church-government to the laws and customes of the Romance Empire Or did they vary their orders for Church-government Discipline according to the different manners and customes of those Nations countreys or Provinces where they planted their Churches Had they one order for the Church of Corinth and another for the Churches of Galatia and a third for the Churches of Asia and the rest No But so ordain I in all Churches saith the Apostle And concerning the collection for the Saints as I have given order to the Churches of Galatia even so do ye So also for making of Ministers and other Church-officers Act. 1. 14. 23. Again Your Church-government must be conceived to be consonant to Gods Word yet with this restriction or limitation that it be also consonant to the Laws and Government under which we live You speak indeed like a pure Lawyer one that will stand for your Profession were this the way to uphold it But cannot your Law and our Gospel cotton together unlesse the Gospel weare the Laws livery like to your Serjeants gown made up of two severall colours ' or unlesse Law and Gospel be woven together into a linsey woolsey garment But what if your Law present stand still in force for Church-government without being repealed Must the Gospel be brought again under your Prelaticall Church-government Or rather why should not a generall law to use your words be enacted to inhibite all formes of Church-government and Discipline which are not every way consonant to Gods Word without this addition And to the Laws and Government under which we live For certainely if the Lawes and Government of the State under which we live be good and just there is no need why you should put upon Christs kingly Government in his Church such hard conditions as not to be admitted but so farre as it is consonant to mans Laws As Tertullian said when upon the Emperour Tiberius his motion to the Romane Senate that Christ might be admitted and enrowled among Romes gods and the Senate refused because they had made a Law that none should be chosen for a god unlesse first propounded by the Senate Ergo nisi homini placuerit Deus non erit Deus Therefore if it please not man God shall not be God So let it be lawfull for me to say If it please not man not the Senate Christ shall not be King his kingdome shall have no place in this or that Nation As if the good Laws of a civill State and the good Laws of Christs kingdome could not ought not to stand together in their distinct forms unmixed when certainly a State stands strongest while most consonant to Gods Word and to the Church-government and Discipline of Christ and not when Christs kingdome and Government is made sutable to the Laws and customes of the State Famous was that Answer of Eleutherius Bishop of Rome to Lucius King of Britaine when this Countrey of Britaine first received the faith being the first Province that received it where the Gospel began freely to be preached without impeachment or inhibition of the Prince as the * Story saith and that without any ceremonies at all King Lucius sending to Eâ—eutherius for some modell or form of Church-Government and Discipline he received this Answer That Christ had left sufficient Order in the Scripture for the Government of the Church and not onely for that but also for the regiment of his whole Realme if he would submit himself to follow that Rule You require of us saith he the Romane Ordinances with the Imperiall Statutes also to be sent unto you which you desire to practise The Romane Laws we may find to be faulty but Gods Laws never You have received of late through Gods mercy in the Realme of Britaine the law and faith of Christ you have with you both volumes of the Scriptures Out of them therefore by Gods grace and the counsell of your Realm take you a law and by that law through Gods sufferance rule your kingdome Now this Eleutherius being the 14th Bishop of Rome by Platina's account it shews unto us the great difference between that and after-times wherein the Mystery of Iniquity grew up to its height in assuming such an unlimited liberty to set up such a Church-Government and ceremonies of humane invention as were haled in by the head and shoulders But brother Prinne you see here how in those purer primitive times even the Bishop of Rome himselfe was so farre from admitting a Church-Government sutable to the severall lawes and customes of every Nation as you would have it as he tels King Lucius he hath both the Testaments by the rule whereof he should not onely see the Church to be governed but his own Realme also Ergo the Kingly government of Christ in his Church is not to be fashioned and moulded according to the lawes and customes of temporall and civill States but contrarily the lawes of Civill States are to be reduced to the rule of Gods Word But you adde also And manners of their people that is in their severall Countries and Common-weales Surely this reflects mine eye upon that Reformation begun in King Edwards reigne But now what Church-Government and Discipline was to be set up Why the manners of the people must be the line and plummet to regulate this building by The people of England had beene so long rooted in a superstitious Egyptian soyle but because fat and filling their flesh-pots with Onions and Garlick they could the better brook the burthens which their Taskmaâ—â—ers the Prelates inured their shoulders withall And withall they must have their Masse-Service though translated out of the Roman into the English language This in King Edward his letter to the Cornishmen standing up for their Masse-book stilled the babes when they understood the English Service-booke was no other then the Romish Masse clad in an English weed though since it hath put off many of those ragges but not all it should So much it importeth to have
much the more when they consider this is a time of Reformation and we have all taken a covenant each to go before other in reforming not only our selves but all others within our line according to the word of God And again the case between our Reformation at this time and that of the Jewes church is much alike For as th a was the Gospell-Reformation so is this as that was a gathering of such churches out of that of the Jewes as acknowledged Christ to be their onely King and Law-giver to govern consciences and churches by his Word when the rest of that church even the main body of it did reject Christ and renounce him for their King this being the very Title set over him on his crosse for which they crucified him So the preaching up of Christs Kingdome in these dayes is that which calleth and gathereth those unto Christ who acknowledge him alone for their King to govern them and this out of those that doe not or will not submit unto his Kingly government but depend upon the sole determination of men what kinde of church-governement they will set up in the Land which you tell us must be sutable to the lawes and customes of the Realme and manners of the people But there is yet one thing more for which you say you can see no ground and that is particular church-government Why brother why should the lawfulnesse of this be doubted whether explicit or implicit It is the churches wisedome and care yea conscience and duty too as we humbly conceive to admit of none but such as can give some account of the worke of grace wrought in them though but in the least degree yet in truth so far as we may discern them to be Saints for such onely are fit members of a church or body of Christ so as to partake of those holy Ordinances of Christ which none but visible Saints ought to partake of And who are fit to receive the Seales of the covenant but such as professe to be in covenant And surely if any shall refuse to make this profession of their being in covenant as being ashamed thereof with what conscience can the Church admit them into fellowship And you know this is a time of Reformation and we have long been under a yoke of Antichristian-government and of humane ordinances in the worship of God wherein we have all violated our vow and covenant made in our names in our Baptisme Now doth not reason require that we should renew our covenant in our own persons when we come to enter into the way of Reformation and that in as full a manner as possibly we can And when the people of God came out of Babylon to inhabit Ierusalem again they made a covenant among themselves when seeking the way with their faces thitherward they say Come and let us joyn ourselves to the Lord in a perpetuall covenant that shall not bee forgotten The case is ours in a great measure who are now inquiring the war to Sion with our faces thitherward and shall we be abashed to come to Sion from all the reliques of Babylon and not incite one another as they did to enter into a perpetuall covenant with the Lord Christ as our onely King not to be forgotten And the like wee read Ezra 10. 5. and Nehem. 9. 38. so did King Asa 2 Chron. 15. 12. Now if any require an example hereof in the New Testament I answer what needs it when wee have it in the Old What example have we in the New Testament for baptizing of Infants Yet having a commandement in the Old for circumcising the Infants of beleeving Abraham as being included in the same covenant with faithfull Abraham the intaile of this Covenant never yet out off but reaching to all Abrahams seed walking in the steps of Abrahams faith now under the Gospel infants of beleeving parents professing to be in covenant have the same right unto baptisme as being within the covenant which the infants of beleeving Abraham had unto circumcision in stead whereof baptisme by Gods institution succeeded and this by a strict charge and command from God Gen. 17. 13 14. which is as strong now for baptizing of Infants of beleeving parents as it was to the infants of beleeving Abraham for circumcision Again what example yea or precept is there of giving women the Lords Supper in the New Testament yet upon good consequence it is drawn from thence But this by the way And to conclude this point what reason can any man bring against this particular Church-covenant And if any doe disrelish it they are onely such as take a disgust of the way itselfe and then no marvell if every thing about it be quarrelled and questioned though no other reason can be given of it but a Nolumus such as the Jewes gave when they said of Christ Nolumus * We will not have this man to reigne over us Which speech was the more notorious as being delivered by an Embassage a solemne act of State of the Eldership and they his own Citizens though a little after vers. 27. he declares them his enemies and for this very thing that they would not hee should reigne over them commandeth them to be brought and slaine before him But this by the way though not unworthy of wise mens sad observation Object But it will be said wee have covenanted already in the Nationall Covenant Answ. This is against things upon supposition that we were convinced of the evill of them but not about our own persons as enquiring whether we indeed are willing to give up ourselves to the Lord Iesus 2. This was put in by such outward authority that many for feare tooke it which a Church-covenant under the Gospell where the people are to be such as come willingly will not beare for under the Law indeed there was another order but appointed by God that they might be forced to the covenant that they had received in their fathers but our fathers were over-awed and secondly no such order now The eighth Question This question though somewhat involved and perplexed with many branches yet the scope being to prove a Nationall Church and so a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular congregations persons ought to be subordinate and thereby an apparent subversion of the Novell Independent invention These are your words The whole I reduce into form thus Where there bee infallible proofes of Nationall Churches there of necessity must be a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular congregations persons ought to be subordinate to the apparent subversion of the NOVEL INDEPENDENT INVENTION But there be infallible proofes of Nationall Churches as the Catholick Church the Nationall Church of the Jewes the Synodall Assembly of the Apostles Acts 15. who made and sent binding decrees to the Churches seconded with all Oecumenicall Nationall Provinciall Councels Synods and the Church-government exercised throughout the world
in binding of the conscience which hath it selfe for witnesse and God for the onely Iudge therefore when it hath any thing commanded of God it must needs stand bound Where inter caetera is to be noted That God is the onely Iudge and binder of the Conscience The great question in controversie at this day Obj. But you will here object That although as before you say of Priests a Councel or Synod have not this authority to make and impose binding decrees yet a Parliament hath and you deduce it from this Synod Act. 15. Answ. Now truly brother by your favour this doth no way hold proportion that that which you call a Synod as a patterne for binding Decrees should not qualifie a Synod of Divines with the like power and yet transmit it over to a Parliament for binding authority over the consciences of a whole Nation surely that Apostolike Assembly or Church meeting was neither a Parliament nor Diet nor Senate nor any such thing that you should build any such power of Parliaments upon it for the making of binding Decrees over the consciences of men Therefore good brother be not so peremptory but take in your top-sail too high to bear up against so stiffe a gale both of Scripture and Reason But I come to your twelfth and last Interrogatory The twelfth Interrogatory This Interrogatory is concerning the lawfull coercive power of Civil Magistrates in suppressing Heresies c. Or setters up of new forms of Ecclesiasticall Government c. For answer hereunto Wee do acknowledge and submit unto the lawfull coercive power of civill Magistrates according to the Scripture Rom. 13. But brother however you must distinguish between mens consciences and their practices The conscience simply considered in it self is for God the Lord of the conscience alone to judge as before But for a mans practices of which alone man can take cognizance of if they be against any of Gods Commandments of the first or second Table that appertains to the civill Magistrate to punish who is for this cause called Custos utriusque Tabulae The keeper of both Tables and therefore the Apostle saith Rom. 13. 3 4. For Rulers are not a terror to good WORKS but to the evill Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power DO that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same for hee is the Minister of God to thee for good but if thou DO that which is evill be afraid for he beareth not the sword in vain for hee is the Minister of God a revenger to execute wrath upon him that DOTH evill So as we see here what is the object of Civill power to wit actions good or bad Not bare opinions not thoughts not conscience but actions And your self exempts the preaching of the Gospel and truth of God from being restrained by the civill Magistrate But now brother the time hath been and somewhere is and will be that the * truth of God hath been with-holden in unrighteousnesse and by the civill Magistrate punished with death being condemned for heresie And you see in these dayes great diversities of mens opinions and judgements one judging thus another so you think my way erroneous and I may do as much for you But do you or I DO that which is evill in actually breaking of any of Gods commandments or any just lawes of the land then we lie open to course of civill justice but so long as wee differ only in opinion which of us shall be punished first or which of us is in the error you write books I write against them yet sub judice lis est who shall be Judge you or I surely neither Among other things you would have the civill Magistrate to suppresse restrain imprison confine banish the setters up of new forms of Ecclesiasticall government without lawfull authority It may be you will involve me in the number But what if I prove that which you call a new form to be the old form and the lawfull authority of setting it up to be of Christ Must I therefore undergo all these your terrible censures because you so judge What if your judgement herein be altogether erroneous What punishment then is due to him that condemnes the innocent you may be a civill Judge one day remember then brother that if I come before you you meddle not with my conscience nor with mee for it If I shall offend any of your just lawes punish mee and spare not But if you should make a law like to that of the Jewes that who so shall confesse Christ to be the Son of God and the only Law-giver Lord King Governour over Consciences Churches and not man not Assemblies not Councels or Senates though after much Fasting Prayers Disputes as you say I confesse I shall be apt to transgresse that law but yet take you heed how you punish me for that trangression with an Ense recidendum or I wot not what club-law So ends your Book and so my Answer Now brother you have since published a third Book partly in answer to your first Answerer and partly touching Mr Joh. Goodwin I leave the parties interessed to acquit themselves Only your stating the Question in the conclusion of the Book I could not omit You staâ—â— it thus Whether a whole representative Church and State hath not as great or greater Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction over the whole Realm Churches with all the members then any one Independent Minister or Congregation challenge over their members Brother I answer if you can prove your Jurisdiction good we will easily grant it to be greater But if the Jurisdiction of the Churches you call Independent be good as having Christ for the founder and owner of it as we have cleerly proved then certainly it will prove the greater For magna est veritas praevalet for Christs kingdome shall stand up when all opposite earthly kingdomes like earthen vessels shall with his iron rod be dashed in pieces This for the Clause Another passage in the same Book is touching my person where you say That none of us three-brethren-Sufferers suffered for opposing Bishops legall authority or any Ceremonies by act of Parliament established Here brother give me leave to answer for my self First for all manner of Ceremonies of humane ordinance imposed upon the conscience in the worship of God I openly for the space almost of a twelvemoneth immediately before my troubles preached against them every Lords day out of Col. 2. from the 8th verse to the end of the Chapter so as when I was summoned into the High Commission Court the Articles read against mee were not only for my two Sermons Nov. 5th but also for those other Sermons against the Ceremonies so as this might challeng to be one ingredient in my censure in Star-Chamber and no lesse then a pillory matter And concerning my opposing of Bishops themselves not only their extravagancies for which I also was censured and suffered you may remember
each Congregation I am sure your Congregations admit neither augmentation nor diminution but according to the capacitie of every Parish 2. Within what precincts Christs Churches are not limited either to place or number 3. What set Stipends allowed Sufficient more or lesse 4. When and where Churches should assemble For when at times convenient For where Not necessarily in this or that place 5. Who shall prescribe extraordinary times of fasting or thanksgiving to them upon just occasions If the occasion be the Churches peculiar Interest the Church agrees upon the time But if it be publick concerning the Politick body of the State whereof we are native members in whose weale or woe we sympathize either we keep dayes of our own appointment extraordinary or if the Civill State command and appoint a day we refuse not to observe it 6. Who shall rectifie their Church-Covenants Discipline Censures Government if erroneous or unjust First Each Church useth her best meanes left her of Christ within her selfe Secondly If need require she useth the help of Sister-Churches Thirdly If any other as the Civill State be not satisfied shee * refuseth not to yeeld an account of her actions being required 7. Shew us say you a sufficient satisfactory Commission from Gods Word for all they doe or desire before they gather any Churches Brother Prynne you say you will pump out our thoughts yea it seemes you will exanclate pumpe out every drop that is in us But stay brother you are not yet a Magistrate And 2. wee hope you will not take up againe the Oath ex Officio to pump out all our secrets And 3. Though I have for my part dealt very freely with you as my brother all along yet give me leave to keep a Reserve Doneâ— ad Triarios redieritres untill it come to a dead lift in case we shall be brought before * Princes and Rulers to give an account of what we doe or desire And 4. you put us upon too unreasonable a taske to satisfie you in all that we DOE or DESIRE First make your particular exceptions and demands for this or that and then we shall know the better how to shape you an Answer as you see we have here done What are all your books of Law cases all the Volumes of the Casuists to the resolution upon general grounds of incident matters which could not be ruled till they happened and yet the Government of States is one and the doctrine of the Scripture in all generally necessary poynts cleare And we desire you not too too much to grow upon us when you see we are so coming and free The fourth Interrogatory This is much like the next before For that was about Ministers power to gather Churches this concerning the peoples power in uniting themselves in a Church choosing their Minister erecting such a Government as they conceive most sutable to the Scripture And so all manner of hereticks may set up Churches and all manner of heresies sects be brought in I answer as before A Church is a Citie of God which by her Charter becomes a Citie being called of God and by the same Charter the Scripture chuseth her own Officers and sets up no other government but what her Charter prescribes If any other doe otherwise and doe pervert the Scripture it is not to be imputed to the Church of Christ Her liberties are no law for others licentiousnesse It was so in the Apostles times and the next ages after The true Churches liberties were no true cause of so many heresies no more then the Christians of old were the cause of the calamities of the Citie or Empire of Rome because Nero and other Tyrants falsly charged them and as injuriously dealt with them Nor may we cast away the priviledges of Christians because others abuse them Yea whether we use our priviledges or no errours and heresies will be The Apostles and Apostolick Churches could neither keep nor cast them out as is shewed before But brother where you say that if this liberty of setting up an Independent Church-government be admitted then by the selfe-same reason they must have a like libertie to elect erect what Civil forme of government they please to set up a new Independent Republick Kingdome c. By the selfe-same reason Surely by no reason at all Shew us a reason hereof and take all And you know that Republicks Kingdomes are Independent though not of Churches electing erecting It is unsatisfiable injury and extreame irrationality thus to argue for hath Christ given the same command to his people as such who are not of this world nor their Kingdome as he hath done to them in spirituals which he commands them to practise whosoever forbids 2. They set up no forme but take that which is prescribed which God hath not done in civill government but left it free 1 Pet. 2 Rom. 13. The fifth Interrogatory Herein you make a comparison between Presbyteriall and Independent Churches Why not that as well as this And if this why doe we not shew solid proofe of it I answer We desire to enjoy ours without making comparison with yours For proofe we have shewed sufficient Then to a second Quere the answer is not the Minister alone nor the Congregation alone but both together admit members and set up Christs Government not their own And how ever you make us a Conventicle consisting of inconsiderable ignorant members I beleeve brother Prynne when you shall have any thing to doe with the most contemptible of such Conventicles as you esteeme us you will not altogether find us such as you are pleased to terme us And for Nationall Parliaments States wee honour them with whatsoever honour is due unto them as Gods * Word commandeth us And for a Nationall Councell as this is called to advise not to be peremptory Judges in the matters of God over our consciences wee detract not their due honour too as they are pious and learned men 2. Where you would have them have the same power in a Parliament and Synod that they have in a Church if they be members it is answered that all power is restrained to its own sphere and place so that we may have a greater power in another kind and yet not that as no Parliament man hath the power of a Master of a family in the Parliament though he have a greater The sixth Interrogatory This Interrogatory hath sundry branches the answer whereunto respectively will intimate what they be 1. Wee say as before None of our Ministers doe by any usurped authoritie gather Churches 2. We cannot conceive that any law of the Land is against the setting up of Christs kingdome in the hearts of his people and in those Congregations called and gathered by the voyce of his Word Nor doth the Ministery of Christs word more in this then it did by John Baptist Christ himselfe and his Apostles when they called Christian Congregations out of the Jewes Nationall Church
Even the Imperiall heathen Roman Lawes gave way to the preaching of Christs kingdome and gathering of Churches within their Territories Provinces Cities 3. For Church-government Covenant wee have said enough before 4. Concerning a Nationall Church also we have spoke already in the former Answer And I desire brevitie and not to answer all your repetitions and aggravations lest I may nauseam movere 5. It is one thing for a State to set up a new forme of Ecclesiasticall Government and another to pull downe the old This they were bound unto by the Word of God but not so that unlesse it be the same Church-government which Christ sets downe in his Word besides which none other ought to be set up though never so much pretended and by men conceived to be according to Gods Word when made sutable to the Lawes Customes of every Nation and manners of the people as you affirme of which before Lastly This Church-government which we professe you shall never be able to prove ridiculous and absurd as you conclude your Interrogatory The seventh Interrogatory This Interrogatory is about the dismissing of members 1. to become members of Presbyteriall Churches 2. Or of other Independent Churches I answer If any will desert their Congregation who can let them Yet it is the Churches care and duty to preserve it selfe and all the members in unity of the body and also from whatsoever may be sinfull If any shall repent and fall back Churches are not more free then * Christ himselfe was If any for conveniency sake or necessary occasion desire to joyne with some other Church doe you think it unreasonable first to acquaint the Church with their desire And doe you not allow of Letters of recommendation when any is to passe to other Churches May not els jealousies and suspicions arise and heart-burnings between Churches Do you not remember what divisions and emulations the want hereof did cause among the Churches of old And brother we desire to doe all things in love And we desire that others should doe no otherwise unto us then we doe unto them as you object You twit us againe for respecting the rich more then the poore If it be true it is * our fault and ought not so to be if not true it is yours and that so often as as you doe you cast it in our dish The eight Interrogatory This Interrogatory is to charge us for not admitting to Baptisme any Infants of such Parents who are not members of our Churches And brother you make this a most hainous and intolerable thing Why you know if we would admit of all it would be no small benefit and advantage to us especially when we are to deale with rich mens children such as you say we have in such high estimation Therefore that we doe it not for rich men you may thinke there is something in it that covetousnesse is not so predominant in us as to corrupt our Conscience And therefore brother let some charitable thought take place in you that we doe it rather of Conscience then of Covetousnesse And what say you to this brother We preach Christ to the Parents We preach him no lesse a King then a Priest and Prophet We preach him the onely King of our Conscience and the onely Law-giver and Governour of his Churches We exhort them to set up this King in their hearts Wee exhort them to become and professe to be those Saints of whom he is King For he is * King of Saints But brother they will not beleeve us they will not depend upon Christ as the onely Lawgiver and King over their consciences Now what would you have us to doe in this case Baptize the Infants of such Parents as will not in this respect professe nor confesse Christ to be their King Why doe you not know that no Infants have any title to Baptisme that are not within the Covenant visibly And how are they within the Covenant visibly but by vertue of their Parents faith outwardly professed And what outward profession of faith in the Parents that refuse Christ for their onely King that are ashamed or afraid to professe to be in covenant with Christ as their King If therefore the Parents professe not yea refuse thus to be in visible Covenant can the children be said to be in visible Covenant and so to have a right to Baptisme the externall seale of the Covenant Brother here is obex a barre put If you say The child shall not beare the iniquitie of the father True but the Parents keep themselves off from the covenant by refusing Christ in whom alone the beleever hath right to the Covenant and so the child is withall kept off For it is not now under the Gospel as it was from Abraham to Christ The covenant was made with Abraham and his seed so as by vertue hereof all the male Infants of beleeving Abraham were and ought to be circumcised But now under the Gospel those onely are accounted Abrahams seed who professe the faith of Abraham which faith looked upon Christ and embraceth whole Christ in all his offices and professe the same outwardly Rom. 10. 9 10. So as the Covenant is entayled onely to beleevers now and so to their children as Act. 2. 39. If then the Parents by refusing Christ as their King as the Jewes did Luk 19. 14. doe hereby out themselves off from the Covenant they do therewith cut off their children too and this not to be recovered in the child untill either the Parent be restored or the child coming in time to beleeve and to professe the faith of Christ doe hereby claime his right to the Covenant and so to Baptisme as being a * childe of Abraham Let this suffice for the present why we dare not baptize the children of those Parents that refuse to professe the faith of Christ as their onely King as well as their onely Priest and Prophet For Christ divided becomes no Christ to the divider This is according to the vulgar Latin translation 1 Joh. 4. 3. solvere Iesum to dissolve Jesus that is to receive him only in part and not in whole Which is the spirit of Antichrist Besides willing disobedience to any good order in a Church deprives a man of the liberties of the Church for so he may not eat of the provender that will not undergoe the yoake Now this of a voluntary profession to walk with the Saints of such a place according to Christ is a thing so just as following the example of the old Church who were in particular Covenant with God 2. In the New they professed their giving themselves to God 2 Cor. 8. 5. 3. All societies require some promise of their members If it be said we are members of the universall Church by faith and repentance we reply 1. this faith must be shewen by a voluntary giving our selves to Christ visibly and then to some Church of his if opportunitie