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A47846 The dissenter's sayings, in requital for L'Estrange's sayings published in their own words for the information of the people / by Roger L'Estrange. L'Estrange, Roger, Sir, 1616-1704. 1681 (1681) Wing L1240; ESTC R671 32,651 54

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Sovereign And methinks it is very Vnequal for Men that give no Quarter to Loyal Subjects to stand expostulating for Privileges to Revolters Here 's King and Parliament gone at First Dash A A Confederacy Authoriz'd at Next B A Papal Dispensation from Obedience C The King and Three Estates swallowed up in the Assembly D Subjects set above the Law E The Sovereignty vested in the Multitude F Parliaments subordinated to the Kirk G The King Himself Arraign'd and Judgments denounced against him H The Judges Degraded Courts of Justice silenc'd the Rabble passing Sentence on the Supreme Magistrate Deposing of Princes Justify'd I. This is all Plain enough without Exposition But we are Now about to be yet a little Plainer Sect. 9. Principles and Positions A THe Two Houses have Legal Power to Levy Monys Arms Horse Ammunition upon the Subjects even without or against the Kings Consent and to put into safe hands such Forts Ports Magazines Ships and Power of the Militia as are intended or likely to be intended to introduce a Tyranny not only when Arms are actually raised against them but when they discern and accordingly declare a Preparation made towards it Political Catechism Page 7.1679 B A King abusing his Power to the Overthrow of Religion Laws and Liberties may be controll'd and oppos'd And if he set himself to overthrow all these by Arms then they who have Power as the Estates of a Land may and ought to Resist by Arms because he doth by That Opposition break the very Bonds and overthrow all the Essentials of this Contract and Covenant This may serve to justifie the Proceedings of This Kingdom against the late King who in a Hostile way set himself to overthrow Religion Parliaments Laws and Liberties Douglase's Coronation Serm. Page 10.1951 C The Lords and Commons are as the Master of the House Calamy's Sermon Decemb. 25. 1644. Page 22. The Parliament whom the People Chuse are the great and only Conservators of the Peoples Liberties Ibid D The Parliament of the Commonwealth of England without the King 1651. were the Supreme Authority of this Nation Jenkins's Petition Octob. 15. 1651. E The Sovereignty here among Us is in King Lords and Commons Baxter's Holy Commonwealths Page 72.1659 F The Government of England is a Mixt Monarchy and govern'd by the Major part of the Three Estates assembled in Parliament Parliament Physick for a sin-sick Nation Page 111. G The Houses are not only requisite to the acting of the Power of making Laws but Co-ordinate with His Majesty in the very power of Acting Ahabs Fall Page 42. H Resolved That in case of Extream Danger and of His Majesties Refusal the Ordinance agreed on by both Houses for the Militia doth oblige the People and ought to be obeyed by the Fundamental Laws of This Kingdom Vote of both Houses March 15. 164● Ex. Col. 112. I Resolved That when the Lords and Commons in Parliament which is the Supreme Court of Judicature in the Kingdom shall declare what the Law of the Land is to have This not only question'd and controverted but contradicted and a Command that it should not be obey'd is a high breach of the Priviledge of Parliament Ex. Col. 114. March 16. 1641. K The Lords and Commons in Parliament do declare That it is against the Laws and Liberties of the Kingdom that any of the Subjects thereof should be commanded by the King to attend Him at His Pleasure but such as are bound thereto by special Service Ex. Col. 193. May 17. 1642 L The Towns Forts Treasure Magazine Offices and the People of the Kingdom and the whole Kingdom it self is entrusted unto the King for the Good and Safety and best advantage thereof and as This Trust is for the Use of the Kingdom so ought it to be menag'd by the Advice of the Houses of Parliament whom the Kingdom hath Trusted for That purpose Third Remonstrance May 26. 1642. Ex. Col. 266. M A Parliament may dispose of any thing wherein His Majesty or His Subjects hath a Right in such a way as that the Kingdom may not be expos'd to hazard or danger thereby Ibid. 267 N The Votes of the Lords and Commons in Parliament being the great Council of the Kingdom are the REASON of the King and of the Kingdom Ibid. 278. O Supreme Head and Governour over all Persons in all Causes as it is meant of singular Persons rather than of Courts or of the Collective Body of the whole Kingdom c. And to speak properly it is only in His high Court of Parliament wherein and wherewith His Majesty hath absolutely the Supreme Power and consequently is absolutely Supreme Head and Governour from whence there is no Appeal Remonstrance May 26. 1642. Ex. Col. 703. P The Kings of This Realm ought to be very tender in denying both Houses of Parliament any thing that concerns the Publick Government and good of the Kingdom and they ought to deny themselves and their own Understandings very far before they Deny Them and that upon this ground because they lie under the Obligation of an Oath to pass such Laws if they be Just and Good for the Kingdom And it must Then be a Tender Point for a Prince to judge otherwise of those Laws that are Represented unto Him as such by the Representative Body of the whole Kingdom Ibid. Pag. 715. No Presidents can be Bounds to the Proceedings of the Parliament Ibid. Pag. 726 Q A Parliament may dispose of any thing wherein the King or any Subject hath a Right in such a way that the Kingdom may not be endanger'd thereby And if the King being humbly sought unto by His Parliament shall refuse to joyn with them In such Cases the Representative Body of the Kingdom is not to sit still and see the Kingdom perish before their Eyes and of this danger THEY are Judges and Judges Superiour to all others that Legally have any Power of Judicature in This Kingdom Ibid. No Member of either House ought to be medled withal for Treason Felony or any other Crime without the Cause first brought before Them that they may judge of the Fact and Their leave obteined to proceed Ibid. The Sovereign Power doth reside in the King and both Houses of Parliament And His Majesties Negative Voice doth not import a Liberty for His Majesty to deny any thing as He pleaseth though never so requisite and necessary for the Kingdom Ibid. 727. R When there is certain appearance or grounded suspicion that the Letter of the Law shall be improv'd against the Equity of it that is the Publique Good whether of the Body Real or Representative then the Commander going against its Equity gives Liberty to the Commanded to refuse Obedience to the Letter Ex. Col. Pag. 152. S The Clause wherein we Swear the Preservation and Defence of the Kings Person and Authority doth lye under some restreint by That limitation In the Preservation and Defence of the True Religion and Liberties of the Kingdom To
Kingdom into so great a guilt as the breach of This Solemn Covenant Edwards Antapalogia Pag. 241. A Toleration of men in their Errours this pretended Liberty of Conscience is against the Judgement of the greatest Lights in the Church both ancient and modern Pag. 242. B Doth it indeed belong to you only to look to the Civil Peace and to let Religion and Truth and the Worship of God stand or fall to their own Master Fight God Fight Devil Fight Christ Fight Anti-Christ Catch that Catch can you have nothing to do but to stand by and look on Say so then Speak out publish it in your Declarations to the World and let the People of England know that it is the Right and Liberty to which the Subjects of England are born that every man hold what he please and publish and Preach what he holds That it is the Birth-Right as some would have it of the Free-born-People of England every man to worship God according to his own Conscience and to be of what Religion his own Conscience shall Dictate Do so and see Fathers and Brethren how long your Civil Peace will secure you when Religion is destroy'd how long it will be ere your Civil Peace be turned into Civil War For no doubt if this be once granted them but they may in good time come to know also there be them that are instructing them even in these Principles too that it is their Birth-Right to be freed from the Power of Parliaments and from the Power of Kings and to take up Arms against Both when they shall not Vote and Act according to their Humours Liberty of Conscience falsly so call'd may in good time emprove it self into Liberty of Estates and Liberty of Houses and Liberty of Wives and in a word Liberty of Perdition of Souls and Bodies I hold it a Truer Point in Divinity that Errans Conscientia LIGANDA then LIGAT but certainly the Devil in the Conscience may be nay must be bound Lightfoot Serm. to Com. Aug. 26. 1645. Pag. 30. Ye Servants of Christ take heed of yielding to the Pretenses of Conscience the Devil not Christ has his Throne There Hugh's Serm. to the Com. May 26. 1647. Pag. 34. C What when we have so much appear'd against Popery and Superstition shall we now begin to think of Indifferency and Toleration Certainly it is but a sorry exchange of a Bad Religion for None Horton Serm. to the Lords Dec. 30. 1646. Pa. 38. D Would These men that so highly defend Toleration grant that Toleration if they had power in their hands to others which they desire for themselves I doubt it The Arrians did sometimes seem as earnest Enemies to Persecution as these men yet when they had Authority on their side they raised a Persecution against the Orthodox more terrible then the Heathen Emperours against the Christians Cranfords Serm. before the Lord Mayor Feb. 1. 1645. Pa. 11. E O let the Ministers therefore Oppose Toleration as being that by which the Devil would at once lay a Foundation of his Kingdom to all Generations witnesse against it in all places possesse the Magistrate of the Evil of it yea and the People too shewing them how if a Toleration were granted they should never have Peace in their Families more or ever after have Command of Wives Children Servants c. Let 's therefore fill all Presses cause all Pulpits to ring and so possess Parliament City and the whole Kingdom against the Sects and of the Evil of Schism and Toleration that we may no more hear of a Toleration nor of Separated Churches being Hateful Names in the Church of God Amen Amen Ibid. Edwards Gangraena Part. 1. Pag. 84. F We are bold to hint unto you these ensuing Reasons against the Toleration of Independency in this Church First No such Toleration hath hitherto been established so far as we know in any Christian State by the Civil Magistrate Secondly Because some of them have solemnly profess'd that they cannot suffer Presbytery And answerable hereunto is their Practice in those places where Independency prevails G Thirdly To grant to Them and not to Other Sectaries who are Free-born as well as They and have done as good Service as they to the Publique as they use to pleade will be counted Injustice and great Partiality But to grant it unto all will scarce be cleared from great Impiety H Fourthly Independency is a Schism c. Now we judge that no Schism is to be Tolerated in the Church 1 Cor. 1.10 1 Cor. 10.25 Rom. 6.17 with 1 Cor. 3.3 Gal. 5.20 Presbyt Minist Letter from Sion College to the Assembly of Divines Dec. 18. 1645. I Many Mischiefs will inevitably follow upon this Toleration and that both to Church and Common-wealth First To the Church As 1. Causlesse and Unjust Revolts from our Ministry and Congregations 2. Our Peoples mindes will be troubled and in danger to be subverted as Acts 15.24.3 Bitter heart-burning among Brethren will be fomented and perpetuated to posterity 4. The Godly Painful Orthodox Ministers will be discouraged and despised 5. The life and power of Godliness will be eaten out by frivolous Disputes and vain Janglings 6. The whole Course of Religion in private Families will be Interrupted and Undermined 7. Reciprocal duties between persons of nearest and dearest Relation will be extremely violated 8. All other Sects and Heresies in the Kingdom will be encourag'd to endeavour the like Toleration and shelter themselves under the wings of Independency 9. And the whole Church of England in short time will be swallow'd up with Destruction and Confusion K Secondly To the Common-wealth for it is much to be doubted lest the Power of the Magistrate should not only be weaken'd but even utterly overthrown considering the Principles and Practises of Independents together with their Compliance with Other Sectaries sufficiently known to be Anti-Magistratical Ibid. L It would lay the Foundation of Strife and Division in the Kingdom to have Two ways of Church-Government Epistolary Discourse p. 21. Printed by Order 1644. The Cities Humble Remonstrance and Petition of May 26. 1646. presses to have some speedy course taken for the suppressing of all private and Separated Congregations Notes upon §. 1. A Toleration A is a Breach of Covenant and against the Judgment of the Church B Destructive of Government and C Religion D They that ask it will never grant it E The Devils Engine to Confound States Families and Souls Separated Churches are not to be endured F without President and G never to be Pleas'd H Intolerable I Ruinous both to Church and K Common-wealth and L the very Bone of Contention So that to desire a Toleration is to Ask a thing which it were Impious to Allow and which they have sworn to hinder all they can A thing that sets up the Kingdom of Hell without either President or Profit to the certain Ruine both of Church and State And This by their Own Confession and Avow'd by their
own Authority This as to the Thing it self We shall now see it in the EFFECTS §. 2. The Fruits of a Toleration A THis is that Diabolical Liberty says Beza Confess Fid. Eccl. l. 5. de sect 44. which hath filled Polonia and Transilvania with so many Plagues of Opinions Reader that thou mayst discern the mischief of Ecclesiastical Anarchy the monstrousness of the much-affected Toleration and be warned to be wise to Sobriety and fear and suspect the pretended New Lights I approve that this Treatise discovering the Gangrene of so many strange Opinions should be Imprinted James Cranfords License to the First Part of Edward's Gangrena B You have most Noble Senators done worthily against Papists Prelates and Scandalous Ministers in casting down Images Altars Crucifixes throwing out Ceremonies c. but what have you done against other kindes of growing Evils Heresie Schism Disorder against Seekers Anabaptists Antinomians Brownists Libertines and other Sects You have destroy'd Baal and his Priests but have you been zealous against Golden Calves and the Priests of the Lowest of the People You have put down the Book of Common-Prayer and there are many among Us that put down the Scriptures slighting yea blaspheming them You have broken down Images of the Trinity Christ Virgin Mary Apostles And we have those who overthrow the Doctrine of the Trinity oppose the Divinity of Christ speak evil of the Virgin Mary slight the Apostles You have cast out the Bishops and their Officers and we have many that cast down to the ground all Ministers in all the Reformed Churches You have cast out Ceremonies in the Sacraments as the Crosse Kneeling at the Lords Supper and we have many cast out the Sacraments Baptisme and the Lords Supper The Sects have been growing upon us ever since the first year of your sitting and have every year encreased more and more things have been bad a great while but this last year they are grown Intolerable And if Schism Heresie c. be let alone and rise proportionably for one year longer we shall need no Cavaliers nor Enemies from without to destroy us Ib. Epist. Ded. to the Lords and Commons C The Independent Churches like Africa do breed and bring forth the Monsters of Anabaptism Antinomianism Familism Nay that huge Monster and old flying Serpent of the Mortality of the Soul Antapologia P. 262. D As John Baptist wore a Leathern Girdle So the Doctrine that he preach'd was Leathern Doctrine Saltmarsh's Serm. at the Bath E The Saints are those that are now stiled Anabaptists Familists Antinonians Independents Sectaries c. The First party that rose against you namely the Prophane ones of the Land are fallen under you and now there is another Party Formalists and Carnal Gospellers rising up against you c. Del's Serm. to the General and Officers June 7. 1646. F Shall the Presbyterians Orthodox Godly Ministers be so cold as to let Anabaptism Brownism Antinomianism Libertinism Independency come in upon us and sleep in a whole skin Gangren Par. 1.91 G When Cartwright Hildersham Travers and many other gracious Divines by the blessing of God upon their Great diligence had undermined and well near overthrown the Episcopal Sees and all the Cathedral Ceremonies Incontinent the Generation of the Separatists did start up c. Bayly's Disswasive Pag. 12. H The famous City of London is become an Amsterdam Separation from our Churches is Countenanc'd Toleration is cry'd up Authority lyeth asleep c. Calamy's Serm. to the Lord Mayor Jan. 14. 1645. Pag. 3. Divisions whether they be Ecclesiastical or Political in Kingdoms Cityes or Familyes are Infallible Causes of Ruine to Kingdoms Cities and Families Serm. to the Lords Dec. 25. 1642. I Diversity of Religion disjoynts and distracts the Minds of men and is the Seminary of Perpetual Hatreds Jealousies Seditions Wars if any thing in the world be and in a little time either a Schism in the State begets a Schism in the Church or a Schism in the Church begets a Schism in the State c. Once for all it is the Preservation and Reservation of Religion which you have Covenanted to endeavour and not a Liberty of Opinion which will consist with neither Newcomen Serm. to Parl. Sept. 12. 1644. K Independents the most Pharisaical proud envious and malicious Sect that ever sprung up Bastwicks Independency not Gods Ordinance Wild-geese Old-geese sticklers against Parliaments and Presbytery Fighters against God Violaters of all the Laws of God and Nature a company of Rats among Joyn'd-stools not worthy to give guts to a Bear Moon-calves c. Id. Postscr Pa. 12.32 34 36. c. L The Errours and Innovations under which we so much groan'd of Latter years were but Tolerabiles Ineptiae tolerable Trifles Childrens-Play compar'd with these Damnable Doctrines Doctrines of Devils as the Apostle calls them Polygamy Arbitrary Divorce Mortality of the Soul No Ministry no Churches no Ordinances no Scripture Yea the very Divinity of Christ and the Holy Ghost question'd by some denyed by Others and the very Foundation of all these layd in such a Schism of boundless Liberty of Conscience c. Serm. before the Commons Aug. 22. 1645. Pag. 29. M The Scriptures deny'd to be the word of God Only of Human Authority Insufficient and Uncertain Edward's Gangrena Pag. 15. God has a hand in and is the Authour of the Sinfulness of his People P. 16. The Soul dies with the Body In the Unity of God there is not a Trinity of Persons Nor Three distinct Persons in the Divine Essence but only Three Offices Pag. 17. That Christs human Nature is de●led with Original Sin That no man shall perish or go to Hell for any Sin but Unbelief only Pag. 18. That men may be saved without Christ. That there is no Original Sin in us only Adams first sin was Original Sin Pag. 20. That the Doctrine of Repentance is a Soul-destroying Doctrine Pag. 21. c. N A Minister in Hertfordshire bringing a place of Scripture against an Anabaptist which he could not Answer said It was the Weakness of the Apostle and there he wanted the Spirit Pag. 33. Part. 1. Some of the Sectaryes Plead Miracles Revelations Visions as Christs appearing to an Anabaptist and forbidding her to baptize her Child Pag. 58. And their dressing up a Cat like a Childe Ibid. O One Cozens of Rochester in Kent sayd that Jesus Christ was a Bastard and that if he were upon the earth again he would be asham'd of many things he then did Ibid. Pag. 105. Oh Lord Thine Honour is now at stake for now O Lord Antichrist hath drawn his sword against thy Christ and if our Enemies prevail thou wilt lose thine Honour Strickland at Southampton Jun. 9. 1643. If thou dost not finish the good Work which thou hast begun in the Reformation of the Church thou wilt shew thy self to be the God of Confusion and such a one as by Cunning Stratagem hast contrived the Destruction of thine own
which we Reply It maintains him as far as he is a King He may be a Man but sure no King without the Lists and Verge of Religion and Laws it being Religion and Laws that make Him a King Case's Covenant Renew'd Page 54. T Princes for just Causes may be Depos'd If they be Tyrants against God and his Truth their Subjects are Freed from their Oaths of Obedience The People have the same Power over the King that the King hath over any one Man The making of Laws doth belong to the People and Kings are but as Masters of the Rolls Dan. Pos. Lib. 1. Cap. 4. U He that resisteth the King commanding in the Lord resisteth the Ordinance of God but he who resisteth the King commanding that which is against God resisteth no Ordinance of God but an Ordinance of Sin and Satan Lex Rex Pag. 267.1644 W Convention of the Subjects in a Tumultuary way for a Seditious End to make War without Warrant of Law is forbidden but not when Religion Laws Liberties Invasion of Foreign Enemies necessitate the Subjects to Convene tho' the King and Ordinary Judicatures going a corrupt way to pervert Judgment shall refuse to consent to their Conventions Rutherford's Lex Rex Pag. 464. X Our Fundamentals were not made by our Representatives but by the People Themselves and our Representatives themselves Limited by Them which it were good that Parliaments as well as People would observe and be faithful to For no Derivative Power can Nul what Their Primitive Power has established The Englishman Page 11.1670 Y The Priviledges and Lawful Prerogatives of the Sovereign must veil in cases of necessity unto this high and supreme Law The Safety of the People Then no less must the Priviledges of a Parliament yield unto This. Lex Rex Pag. 159. If we be sworn to maintain the Kings Person and Authority in the Defence of the Liberties of the Subject then whoever prefers the Liberties of the Subject to his Person or Authority are not Traytors or Rebels Ibid. Pag. 251. Z Noblemen ought to Reform Religion if the King will not The Commonalty concurring with the Nobility may compel the Bishops to cease from their Tyranny and by their Power Bridle the cruel Beasts They may lawfully require of their King to have True Preachers and if he be negligent they justly may themselves provide them maintain them defend them against all that do persecute them and may retein the Profits of the Church Livings from the other sort The Nobility and Commonalty ought to Reform Religion and may remove from Honors and punish whom God hath condemned Deut. 12. of what Estate or Condition soever The Punishment of such Crimes as touch the Majesty of God doth not appertain to Kings and Chief Rulers only but also to the whole Body of the People and to every Member of the same as Occasion Vocation or ability shall serve to revenge the Injury done against God Dan. Pos. Lib. 1. Cap. 4. If the Magistrates shall refuse to put Mass-mongers and False Preachers to death the People in seeing it perform'd do shew that zeal of God which was commended in Phineas destroying the Adulterers and in the Israelites against the Benjamites Dan. Pos. Lib. 2. Cap. 1. a Judges ought by the Law of God to summon Princes before them for their Crimes And to proceed against them as against all other Offenders Evil Princes ought by the Law of God to be Depos'd and Inferior Magistrates ought chiefly to do it When Magistrates do cease to do their Duties the People are as it were without Officers And then God giveth the Sword into Their hands and he himself is become immediately Their Head For to the Multitude a Portion of the Sword of Justice is committed From the which no Person King Queen or Emperor being an Idolater is excepted they must Dye the Death c. God will send to the People which are willing to do their Duty but are not able some Moses or Othoniel If they know any Jonathan they must go unto him to be their Captain and he ought not to refuse them By the word of God a Private Man by some Special Inward Motive may Kill a Tyrant as Moses did the Aegyptian as Phineas did the Lecherous and Ebud did King Eglon c. It is lawful to kill wicked Kings and Tyrants and both by Gods Law and Mans Law Queen Mary ought to have been put to death as being a Tyrant a Monster a Cruel Death c. The Subjects did kill the Queen's Highness Athalia Jebu killed the Queen's Majesty Jezebel Elias being no Magistrate killed the Queen's Majesties Chaplains Baal's Priests These Examples are left for our Instruction Where this Justice is not executed the State is most Corrupt Dan. Pos. Lib. 2. Cap. 1. b Whensoever a King or other Superior Authority creates an Inferior they invest it with a Legitimacy of Magistratical Power to punish Themselves also in case they prove Evil Doers Right and Might well met Page 7.1648 Princes derive their Power and Prerogative from the People and have their Investitures meerly for the Peoples Benefit Jus Populi Page 1.1644 If the Prince fail in his Promise the People are exempt from their Obedience the Contract is made void and the Right of Obligation is of no force It is therefore permitted to the Officers of a Kingdom either all or some good number of them to suppress a Tyrant Vindiciae contra Tyrannos Pag. 120 121 1648. It is lawful for any who have the Power to call to account a Tyrant or wicked King and after due Conviction to depose and put him to death if the ordinary Magistrate hath neglected or deny'd to do it The Tenure of Kings and Magistrates 1649. Notes on Sect. 9. THe First Clause A has been of great Vse to the Protestant Mercuries and Intelligences for the shaping of their Addresses B A Dispensation again C. D. E. F. G. The King is Depos'd by the Dissenters H The Two Houses above the King I Calls the King to an account for not submitting to the Two Houses K Allows Him to be Master only of His Own Domestiques L The Two Houses are the Kings Guardians and M may Dispose of Kings and Subjects Rights at pleasure N The Votes of the Two Houses are the REASON of King and Kingdom O Singulis Major Universis Minor P The King bound to pass whatever Bills the Two Houses offer Him tho' against His Judgment Q No Member of either House to be Touch'd for Treason without leave R The Equity of the Law set up against the Letter of it S The King distinguish'd from the Person T Princes Deposable by the People U Obedience and Resistance Conditional W People may Convene against Authority X The Fundamentals of Government are from the People Y And so is Sovereignty to which both Kings and Parliaments must vail Z. and a. Popular Violence and Reformation Justifi'd Deposing and Killing of Kings b Gives the Constable a Commission